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Why Six Days? (Six Days of Creation, Literal Days or Era's.
Koinonia House ^ | 11/15/2003 | Dr. Chuck Missler

Posted on 11/15/2003 10:50:03 PM PST by bondserv

Part One of a Series:
Why Six Days?
by Chuck Missler

The Book of Genesis presents a disturbing problem for many Bible-believing Christians. Did God really create the heaven and the earth in just six 24-hour days? How does a serious student of the Torah - the five books of Moses - reconcile the Genesis account with the "billions of years" encountered in the dictums of astronomy, geology, et al?

Many continue to attempt to circumvent the problem by assuming that the six days represent "geological eras," or that the traditional text is simply a rhetorical "framework" for a literary summary of the creative process. Various forms of "theistic evolution" have been contrived in attempts to reconcile the Biblical text with the various theories and conjectures which dominate our evolution-based society.

However, the sincere student cannot escape the confrontations which result from the straightforward reading of the text with the ostensible declarations of "science." How can we deal with these fundamental issues?

Why Is It So Critical?

There are four basic questions that confront all of us: Who am I? Where did I come from? Why am I here? Where am I going when I die?

And your eternal destiny will be determined by your "world view" in addressing these issues. And there are really only two world-views: either everything - including you - is the result of some kind of cosmic accident, or this is all the result of a deliberate design by a Designer.

This issue could not be more fundamental to everything. It comes as a shock to many to discover that every major theme and doctrine in the Bible has its roots in this "Book of Beginnings": sovereign election; salvation, justification by faith, believer's security, separation, disciplinary chastisement, the Divine Incarnation, the "rapture" of the church, death and resurrection, the priesthoods (both Aaronic and Melchizedekian), the Antichrist, and even the Palestinian Covenant that is being challenged by the continuing tensions throughout the world today all have their roots in this critical foundational book of the Bible. And each of these issues also has its consummation in the Book of (the) Revelation. (Like every good textbook, the answers are always in the back!)

Who Really Wrote the Torah?

There are those who have suggested the books of Moses were actually compilations by a number of redactors over the years - the common "Documentary Hypothesis" being one of the most prevalent theories. Fortunately, these previously popular notions have been thoroughly shredded by competent scholarship. But allow me to save you many hours of boring library research. I know who wrote the Books of Moses: Moses did. How do I know? Jesus Christ Himself said so! Many times.1

Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? - John 5:45-47

Jesus quotes from each of the books of the Torah and attributes them each to Moses. The New Testament includes 165 direct quotes (and over 200 allusions) to the Book of Genesis, and over 100 of these are from the first 11 chapters. These include the Creator and the creation, 2 (and allusions3), creation of man and woman,4 the fall of man,5 the Flood of Noah,6 etc. So if you believe in Jesus Christ, you have no problem as to who wrote the Book of Genesis. (And if you don't believe in Jesus Christ, you have much bigger problems than the authorship of Genesis!)

But "Six Days"?

The account of the creation of the universe in six days still is a "bone in the throat" to many Christians. Many point out that the word for "day" is yom

, and is translated to 54 other words; however, 1181 of 1480 occurrences it is "day," and when used with a number it is always a literal day. But the real problem isn't the account in Genesis. It is in Exodus. In the middle of the Ten Commandments, the Creator Himself wrote it with His own finger in stone!

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it. - Exodus 20:11

It is undeniable that God intended us to understand that it was, indeed, six literal days. So how do we deal with the common understanding that "billions of years" was involved? How do we deal with the astronomical distances of millions of "light years" between the galaxies of the universe? Can anyone familiar with the discoveries of modern science take the Genesis account seriously?

It may come as a pleasant surprise to discover that the more you know about modern science - the real physics, not the mythology and conjectures that masquerade as "science" - the more you can take the Biblical text seriously. The Lord always rewards the diligent. (A recent book includes articles by fifty top scientists - from many different fields of specialization - who declare why they believe in a literal six-day creation. 7)

The Nature of Time

One of the many advantages that 20th century science has given us is that, thanks to Dr. Albert Einstein's brilliant discoveries, we now know that time is a physical property and is subject to mass, acceleration, and gravity. We have come to realize that we live in a four-dimensional continuum properly known as "space-time." (This is what Paul seems to imply in his letter to the Ephesians!8) It is interesting that when one takes the apparent 1012 expansion factor involved in the theories of the "expanding universe," that an assumed 16 billion years reduce to six days!

Furthermore, the astronomical timetables now seem to be entirely overturned with the reluctant acknowledgments that the speed of light is not longer regarded as the constant that the high priests of physics had been previously convinced of.

The Nature of Light

Not only have recent scientific articles highlighted the discoveries that the speed of light has changed over the centuries (something that Barry Setterfield has been declaring for decades) the very nature of light has ripped open the entire world of quantum physics that has shattered our concepts of reality itself.

The changes in the velocity of light not only impacts our understanding of the astronomical distances and properties, it affects the atomic behavior involved in the red shift of spectra, the reliability of radiological dating, etc. It is the peculiar properties of photons themselves that continue to astonish the quantum physicists wrestling with the very nature of our physical existence. It is now recognized that subatomic particles lack a property known as "locality." All subatomic particles are now understood to be immediately connected. There is a simultaneity - a "non-locality" - among all photons that has been confirmed in the laboratory. It now appears that our entire universe may actually be a gigantic hologram of some kind. 9

The Fabric of Space

Most of us assume that space is simply an empty vacuum with nothing "in it." However, it is increasingly evident that even empty space has astonishing properties that have yet to be fully understood. We now know that this "firmament,"(raqia) which the Scripture presents, possesses electromagnetic properties including dielectric permittivity, magnetic permeability, an intrinsic impedance,10 and has an astonishing "zero-point" energy sufficient to keep all the electrons in the entire universe in their orbits.11 The term "stretching the heavens" appears at least 17 times in the Scriptures.12

According to the Scriptures, the heavens can be "torn,"13 "worn out" like a garment,14 "shaken,"15 "burnt up,"16 "split apart" like a scroll,17 rolled up" like a mantle 18 or a scroll.19

The concept of being "rolled up" carries some additional insights. There must be some dimension in which space is "thin." If space can be "bent," there must be a direction it can be bent toward. Thus, this tells us that there must be additional dimensions beyond those of space itself. It is now understood that we live in even more than four dimensions: ten dimensions is the current estimate (which is precisely what Nachmonides concluded in his commentary on Genesis back in the 13th century!) The more we understand from the current perspectives of modern physics, the more comfortable we are with the chronicle in Genesis One.

The Architecture of the Solar System

The more we study our solar system, the more questions get raised. Here, too, the prevailing assumptions that are broadly taught are totally specious. The "Nebular Hypothesis," that the planets were somehow thrown off by the sun, is mathematically untenable. There is no plausible explanation that would support a solar origin of the planets. The sun contains 99.86% of all the mass of the solar system, and yet contains only 1.9% of the angular momentum. The nine planets contain 98.1%. Furthermore, the outer planets are far larger than the inner ones. (Jupiter is 5,750 times as massive as mercury, 2,958 times as massive as Mars, etc.)

There are many other provocative enigmas concerning our planetary history:

o There are three pairs of rapid-spin rates among our planets: Mars and Earth, Jupiter and Saturn, and Neptune and Uranus, are each within 3% of each other. Why?

o Earth and Mars have virtually identical spin axis tilts (about 23.5°). Why? (From angular momentum and orbital calculations, it would seem that the three pairs of these planets may have been brought here from elsewhere.)

o Why does Mars have 93% of its craters in one hemisphere and only 7% in the other? It would appear that over 80% occurred within a single half-hour!

It's almost as if God designed it to challenge any naturalistic hypotheses!

"Evening" and "Morning"?

The Hebrew terms, Erev,and Boker, now refer to "evening" and "morning" but their origins remain obscure. Erev

designates obscuration, mixture (increasing entropy). The time when encroaching darkness begins to deny the ability to discern forms, shapes, and identities; thus, it becomes a term for twilight or evening.20 This also marks the duration of impurity, when a ceremonially unclean person became clean again,21 and thus, the beginning of the Hebrew day.

Boker is a designation for becoming discernible, distinguishable, visible; perception of order; relief of obscurity (decreasing entropy). It thus is associated with being able to begin to discern forms, shapes, and distinct identities; breaking forth of light; revealing; hence, denotatively, dawn, morning. (As traditional designations for the Hebrew day, technically it would seem to only designate the nighttime hours, but it is used connotatively for the entire calendar day.)

It is noteworthy that neither of these are recorded on the seventh day, and thus their original significance may have been to designate the increments of creation.

Other Issues

There are other questions that arise from the Genesis narrative. When was the earth created? It seems to have preceded the rest of the universe. Surprisingly, there are some cosmologists that are (again) beginning to suspect that the universe may be geocentric after all! How did plants (3rd day) flourish without the sun's photosynthesis (4th day)? When were the angels created? (They apparently witnessed the events of Genesis 1.) 22 When did Satan fall? He had apparently already fallen by Chapter 3.

As we explore these, and other, enigmas that emerge from the Biblical text, let us not confuse the precision of the text with conjectures and mythology that pervades our pagan culture and uninformed classrooms. (It's tragic that we can't insist on evidence-based education for our children rather than the foolishness and dogma that continues to strip them of their God-fearing heritage.)

But the more acquainted you become with the amazing discoveries and insights from the frontiers of science - and are able to dismiss the nonsense that prevails among the uninformed - the more comfortable the Genesis text becomes! We plan to continue this series of articles in the unmitigated aspiration of stimulating you to dig ever deeper into God's inerrant Word!


Notes:      

  1. Matthew 8:4; 19:7,8; 23:2; Mark 1:44; 10:3,4; 7:10; Luke 5:14; 16:19, 31; 20:37; 24:27,44; John 3:14; 5:39,45,46; 6:32; 7:19, 22,23.
  2. Matthew 13:35; Mark 13:19; John 1:3; Acts 4:24; 14:15; Romans 1:20; 2 Corinthians 4:6; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:10; 11:3.
  3. Romans 1:25; 16:25; Ephesians 3:9; 1 Timothy 4:4; Hebrews 2:10; 4:10; 9:26; James 3:9; Revelation 3:14; 4:11; 10:6; 14:7.
  4. Matthew 19:4-6, 8; Mark 10:6; Acts 17:26; 1 Corinthians 6:16; 11:8,9; Ephesians 5:31; 1 Timothy 2:13, 14; Revelation 2:7; 22:2, 14.
  5. Romans 5:11, 14, 17, 19; 8:19-20; 1 Corinthians 15:21-22; 2 Corinthians 11:3; Revelation 20:2.
  6. Matthew 24:37; Luke 17:26; 1 Peter 3:20; 2 Peter 2:5; 3:5-61.
  7. John F. Ashton, In Six Days , Master Books, Green Forest AR, 2001.
  8. Ephesians 3:18.
  9. Cf. "Information in the Holographic Universe," Scientific American , August 2003.
  10. Any radio ham that has had to tune an antenna array knows about the 377 ohms.
  11. It has been estimated at a staggering 1.071 x 10117 kilowatts per square meter!
  12. 2 Samuel 22:10; Job 9:8; 26:7; 37:18; Psalm 18:9; 104:2; 144:5; Isaiah 40:22; 42:5; 44:24; 45:12; 48:13; 51:13; Jeremiah 10:12; 51:15; Ezekiel 1:22; Zechariah 12:1.
  13. Isaiah 64:1.
  14. Psalm 102:25.
  15. Hebrews 12:26, Haggai 2:6, Isaiah 13:13.
  16. 2 Peter 3:12.
  17. Revelation 6:14.
  18. Hebrews 1:12.
  19. Isaiah 34:4.
  20. Proverbs 7:9; Jeremiah 6:4.
  21. Leviticus 15.
  22. Job 4:7.


TOPICS: Editorial; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: creation; evolution; god
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To: Diddley
 
How did plants (3rd day) flourish without the sun's photosynthesis (4th day)?
And the answer is?

...to be found in the BACK of the Book!
 
 
Revelation 21:23-27
 23.  The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.
 24.  The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it.
 25.  On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there.
 26.  The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 
 27.  Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
 
(Plants are growing in THIS enviroment, why could they have not done the same before the Sun was 'created'?)
 
Revelation 22
 1.  Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb
 2.  down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.
 3.  No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him.
 4.  They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.
 5.  There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.
 6.  The angel said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place."
 
 

51 posted on 11/16/2003 2:08:12 AM PST by Elsie (Don't believe every prophecy you hear: especially *** ones........)
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To: bjcintennessee
There are lot of things I question,

Isn't it great that God allows questioning!?

The Word is FILLED with folks doing that very thing, and being satified.


I think JAMES said it best:
James 1:5-6
5. If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.
6. But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind.

52 posted on 11/16/2003 2:21:53 AM PST by Elsie (Don't believe every prophecy you hear: especially *** ones........)
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To: bondserv
"The changes in the velocity of light not only impacts our understanding of the astronomical distances and properties, it affects the atomic behavior involved in the red shift of spectra, the reliability of radiological dating, etc."

That is utterly fascinating! I'm getting behind in understanding the latest in science.

The Lord had blessed me with some in-depth understanding about Genisis when I was a teen, back in the '80s. The sun was not around when the world was first created. Therefore, when God first told mankind that the earth was created in six days, we truly don't know if those were days of heavan or days of earth, or days beyond our comprehension. God is a time traveller. He sees time differently than we do.
53 posted on 11/16/2003 3:07:47 AM PST by Arthur Wildfire! March
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To: mcg1969
"Honestly I have more trouble with Noah's Ark than Genesis 1."

I hear you there. Noah's Ark presents so many troubling questions, I hear people make all manner of way-out explanations of how Noah's Ark must have worked. Sometimes, I wonder if Noah came here on a space ship after fleeing a flooded planet. With no word to describe outer space, they well... er... a space ship build of gopher wood? Hm....
54 posted on 11/16/2003 3:15:39 AM PST by Arthur Wildfire! March
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To: lockeliberty
That would be logically impossible. There is either belief or unbelief. There is no middle ground.




But there is belief on both sides. Faith too.

If we are to consider the first chapter of Genesis to be the foundation of faith and anyone who differs from a literal day to be lost, then the opposite is also true. If the days are actually billions of years then those who believe in 24 hours are lost. In each case it is the word of God taken in truth or not.

Look at the multitude of Christian denominations with varying interpretations of God's Word. According to the mindset of creationism, all which do not have the actual Word of God, are lost. So all are lost since not one has it perfect. Even the most fundamental of the fundamentalists says "the Bible in the original text" since there is doubt about the accuracy of some words or entire sections of the Bibles we carry to church, especially older translations.

We are saved by faith and that faith is in the person of Jesus Christ and the good news of his life. Everything else is arguing about the number of angels who can fit on the head of a pin.
55 posted on 11/16/2003 3:23:41 AM PST by KeyWest
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To: bondserv
Good Read!
56 posted on 11/16/2003 4:21:51 AM PST by azhenfud ("He who is always looking up seldom finds others' lost change...")
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To: bondserv
The first statement is false.

The book of Genesis does NOT present ANY problem for a Bible Believer.

God spoke, and it was done, and it took six days...anything else, means you are NOT a Bible believer, but a believer in evolution of some sort.
57 posted on 11/16/2003 4:23:39 AM PST by RaceBannon
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To: RaceBannon
We'll all do well to first realize Satan is the prince of this world and the Father of lies, and through illusion, perfectly capable of decieving those that will into doubting God's Word.
58 posted on 11/16/2003 4:28:59 AM PST by azhenfud ("He who is always looking up seldom finds others' lost change...")
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To: RadioAstronomer
Ping me if you post again to this thread. I won't be following it otherwise.
59 posted on 11/16/2003 5:20:13 AM PST by PatrickHenry (Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.)
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To: bondserv
If you want a lucid explanation from the "billions of years" creation perspective, go to...

www.reasons.org

60 posted on 11/16/2003 5:34:03 AM PST by aquawrench ("DRAIN THE SWAMP!")
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To: bluejay
One of the more amazing things about the earth...which the Lord must have had great insight into...is the 'wobble' which the Earth enjoys, which helps cause four seasons out of the year. Surely, the Lord must have been sitting there and calculating about this necessity.
61 posted on 11/16/2003 5:52:06 AM PST by pepsionice
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To: Ichneumon
Since it would be dishonest to make such an assertion without having done the math necessary to support such a conclusion, I invite you to show your calculations here. Be sure to clearly state the assumptions they're based on.

You are either playing coy or are a slow learner since the information has been given you before. Remember? It was a couple of your own mathematicians that abandoned evolutionism when they discovered the statistical impossibility of the superstition.

You certainly have the right to disagree, as I have no doubt you will, but first state your credentials and tell us why you should be heard at all.
62 posted on 11/16/2003 6:48:35 AM PST by Dataman
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To: bondserv
The "real" science Missler trumpets seems to be a blend of H. Russell Humprhries's "White Hole" theory, Barry Setterfield's CDK, and some sort of Zero-Point Energy Quackery. On the last of these, there is a demonstrable zero-point energy (try a web search on "Casimir Effect"), but it can't be huge or it would be collapsing the universe gravitationally. Neither of the first two has ever succeeded as science.
63 posted on 11/16/2003 6:54:03 AM PST by VadeRetro
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To: scripter
There's Hebrew literary devices called redundancy and parallel accounts that explain it quite well. Most people don't know anything about Hebrew literary devices so it's a common mistake to think there are two different, contradictory versions.

You are correct. Genesis is ancient literature and the first 11 chapters predate Moses. Never have I seen an evolutionist critic that treats it as anything but modern lit.

64 posted on 11/16/2003 6:55:24 AM PST by Dataman
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To: RaceBannon
God spoke, and it was done, and it took six days...anything else, means you are NOT a Bible believer, but a believer in evolution of some sort.

If you confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord and believe in your mouth that God raised Him from the dead, then you will be saved.

Tell me where that also says you have to believe in a literal 144-hour creation as well.

65 posted on 11/16/2003 7:50:09 AM PST by mcg1969
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To: mcg1969
Duh, it's too early here. That verse should read:

If you confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, then you will be saved.

66 posted on 11/16/2003 7:54:34 AM PST by mcg1969
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To: bondserv
The author just makes things worse with his foray into numerology.
67 posted on 11/16/2003 7:57:39 AM PST by Conservative til I die
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To: bondserv
Why Six Days?

Because the creation myth that the ancient Hebrews were most familiar with (the Babylonian Enuma Elish) and patterned their own creation myth after takes place in seven parts. Also, because of a basic translation mistake. The number "seven" in Babylonian also had an idiomatic connotation of "many," so it could be used both as a number and as a general term (much as the ancient Hebrew "forty" was mistranslated by medieval scholars as a direct number where it could have equally meant many... think the Deluge).

68 posted on 11/16/2003 8:04:42 AM PST by Charles H. (The_r0nin) (Why is it that those so quick to play God are seldom even competent at being human...?)
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To: Diddley
Actually, He did, according to quantum mechanics. Einstein was incorrect.

I love the certainty with which some Freepers speak.
69 posted on 11/16/2003 8:05:09 AM PST by Conservative til I die
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To: azhenfud
Excellent point. "Satan", Lucifer, dragon, serpent, destroyer, "DEVIL", so many roles to play.

Yet the description of "him" tells the story, and what brought "him" down and WHEN he fell, sentence passed, all done prior to "man in the flesh" being created. The "DEVIL" and a few of those who followed him in that "FIRST" AGE are the only ones thus far given the "DEATH SENTENCE".

That first heaven and earth "AGE" prior to "man in the flesh" is the "foundation" for this "FLESH" AGE and because we are in "FLESH" that memory is removed.
70 posted on 11/16/2003 8:15:22 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: lockeliberty
There is either belief or unbelief. There is no middle ground.

But that's not the choice you're presented with in this article, is it?

71 posted on 11/16/2003 8:20:29 AM PST by general_re (Me and my vortex, we got a real good thing....)
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To: mcg1969
(Luke 16:29 KJV) Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

(Luke 16:30 KJV) And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

(Luke 16:31 KJV) And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.



(Exo 20:9 KJV) Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

(Exo 20:10 KJV) But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

(Exo 20:11 KJV) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.



Creation is the basis for everything

It is why we wear clothes, why we have families, and most importantly, where Sin began, with Adam, not some mythical creature evolved from some ape like creature, but from a man created on Day 6



If you do not believe in Adam, then you do not believe what the Bible says on where sin came from

(Rom 5:12 KJV) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:



If you dont believe where sin came from, then you have no logical reason to believe in the promise of a Redeemer sent to atone for sin.

(Luke 16:31 KJV) And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


Those who claim to believe evoution, and in Jesus being the messiah are believing on two diametrically opposite beliefs, two total opposites.
72 posted on 11/16/2003 8:23:06 AM PST by RaceBannon
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To: Elsie
Oh, but Moses did not write/recite "two different contradictory versions of the Creation".

He wrote of two different "DAYS" of Creation. The 6th day of CREATION and it was "GOOD". REST on the 7th day. Then there was NO MAN to till the ground, no farmer, thus "the Adam" was created and "animals" he was to name.

The Bible is about "the ADAM" his generations, check out who is listed in "Adam's" generations, somebody is not listed there. This "the ADAM" fell while in the "FLESH" and it says the GOD repented that he MADE "MAN IN THE FLESH".

MODERN MAN, not MOSES, recite two different contradictory versions of the Creation.
73 posted on 11/16/2003 8:26:19 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: RaceBannon
Those who claim to believe evoution, and in Jesus being the messiah are believing on two diametrically opposite beliefs, two total opposites.

First of all, you seem to believe there is only two possibilities: literal 144-hour creation and evolution. That simply is not the case: there is, for example, the "progressive creation" model. I find the progressive creation model of Hugh Ross, for example, quite compelling, and also quite consistent with a day/age reading of Genesis 1.

Secondly, even if God used macroevolution as His method of creation, I don't believe that excludes the intrusion of sin upon the world. Let's not forget that mankind is endowed with a unique gift that no other animal on the planet has: a spirit. It is this spirit that makes sin possible; it is this spirit that is ultimately redeemed by Christ. Thus, it is conceivable that God used evolution as part of His creation miracle, intervening additionally at the emergence of humankind in order to endow him with spirit, and thus make him accountable for sin.

So no, it is not necessarily contradictory to believe in the necessity of Jesus as redeemer and believe in evolution.

But let us suppose for the sake of argument that it is indeed contradictory. Haven't you ever held contradictory thoughts on other issues before? Of course you have. Have you always been 100% logical and consistent in your thinking? Of course you haven't. Thus, since it is possible to hold contradictory thoughts, it is still possible to believe in both the Bible and evolution. It would be incorrect, but possible.

And thankfully, such a person can still be saved, because God does not require us to be 100% correct on secondary issues of theology and doctrine. He only requires that we place our lives in the hands of His Son.

74 posted on 11/16/2003 8:46:10 AM PST by mcg1969
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To: RaceBannon; Just mythoughts; All
the tree where satan tempted and deceived our parents was placed there by the lord (by him all things were created) as a test of obedience....it was the "do it because i said so, because you love me, not because you understand it, or agree with it" moment for created humankind. they (& we) failed the test, so here we are, folks!

of all the ten commandments, the one most like the tree is the 4th. some say any day is ok to worship, or more specifically "rest in the lord", some say every day.

some say the law has changed from OT to NT.... since the ceremonial laws (curtain torn by an invisible hand from top to bottom) and civic laws (i confess there have been times a public stoning would have been emotionally satisfying) have changed.

the special object of satan's wrath, the focus of his greatest deceptive energies has been the keeping of.... the 4th commandment, the seventh day sabbath. why has it changed, (or doesnt really matter).....when all the other commandments are still regarded as being "in force"? (most christians & non-christians agree on all that not killing & stealing & lying & adultery stuff).

because "it is a sign....that you are my people, and i am your god"

75 posted on 11/16/2003 9:34:23 AM PST by 1john2 3and4 ( at ONE with my duality)
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To: mcg1969
He only requires that we place our lives in the hands of His Son

and because we have done that....when we do that....we want to be obedient....

obedience is still required.

76 posted on 11/16/2003 9:38:24 AM PST by 1john2 3and4 ( at ONE with my duality)
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To: bondserv
Just what is a 'day' to all seeing and all powerful God, who can manipulate space/time to His needs and already knows a future that we cannot. We need to consider His point of reference as well as mans when we debate this issue.

Consider known concepts like relativity theory as applied to this argument and it starts to make a little more sense. Time is dependant on your point of reference and your speed...and I suspect that the Lord moves pretty fast.

77 posted on 11/16/2003 9:49:41 AM PST by CarryaBigStick
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To: bondserv
Thank you so much for the heads up!

How does a serious student of the Torah - the five books of Moses - reconcile the Genesis account with the "billions of years" encountered in the dictums of astronomy, geology, et al?

Here is a response from serious students of the Torah, presented by a Jewish Physicist:

The Age of the Universe

I agree with Dr. Schroeder's analysis and expand on it with New Testament Scriptures here:

Origins

78 posted on 11/16/2003 9:53:08 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: AZLiberty
"if your beliefs (or metaphorical license) can bend the meaning of "day" to mean billions of years, then the creation story sort of works. But science says it "really" took billions of years."

Lets flip that around somewhat. What if our understanding or definition of a year is all wrong?

79 posted on 11/16/2003 10:34:34 AM PST by Mikey
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To: mcg1969
Sorry, you do not believe the Bible

(Exo 20:9 KJV) Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

(Exo 20:10 KJV) But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

(Exo 20:11 KJV) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


80 posted on 11/16/2003 11:02:17 AM PST by RaceBannon
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To: bondserv; pepsionice; Just mythoughts
We are such a prize that He chose to become a MAN in order to save us. The Son of God, second person of the triune Godhead, lived on earth for 33 years.

Not being Christian, I do not believe that such an event ever occurred. However, taking your argument at face value - I still do not believe that Earth is central to Lord's creation. It is Man that is central. Earth is important because we live here, not the other way around. I do not believe there is anything in the Bible that talks about centrality of planet Earth.

The order of creation, as listed in my translation of the Bible, is as follows: light, heavens (sky), land (Earth), plants, stars, etc. This is probably confused. It is unlikely that plants came before stars. The question is - is it important to our faiths to believe that six days of Creation as well as the order of Creation are literal facts? Thomas Aquinas wrote in II Sententiarum:

With respect to the origin of the world, there is one point that is of the substance of the faith, viz. to know that it began by creation, on which all the authors in question are in agreement. But the manner and the order according to which creation took place concerns the faith only incidentally, in so far as it has been recorded in Scripture, and of these things the aforementioned authors, safeguarding the truth by their various interpretations, have reported different things.
81 posted on 11/16/2003 11:35:57 AM PST by bluejay
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To: bluejay
I know very little about bible and even less about physics. I am just curious why Lord would express himself in terms of rotation of planet Earth? It is very difficult for me to believe that the six days of creation talk about time in terms of rotation of a single planet around it's axis.

Why not? The Earth is the center of the Universe, and Man the foremost thing on Earth. The language of the Bible is that the Sun, Moon, and Stars revolve around a stationary Earth. Thus, Sun stops in its tranist across the sky for Joshua.

The second person of the Holy Trinity did not unite Himself permanently to anything but a human body, which precludes any notions of other worlds and other loci of divine attention.

The Bible is very Theocentric and Anthropocentric, because the Bible is all about the theandric person - Jesus Christ.

Either we are a bunch of electrons descended from a monkey, or we are God's pinnacle of creation.

82 posted on 11/16/2003 11:45:42 AM PST by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: PatrickHenry
...I won't be following it otherwise.

Are ya gettin' tired, Pat??

;^)

83 posted on 11/16/2003 11:45:46 AM PST by Elsie (Don't believe every prophecy you hear: especially *** ones........)
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To: bluejay
I know very little about bible and even less about physics. I am just curious why Lord would express himself in terms of rotation of planet Earth? It is very difficult for me to believe that the six days of creation talk about time in terms of rotation of a single planet around it's axis.

Why not? The Earth is the center of the Universe, and Man the foremost thing on Earth. The language of the Bible is that the Sun, Moon, and Stars revolve around a stationary Earth. Thus, Sun stops in its tranist across the sky for Joshua.

The second person of the Holy Trinity did not unite Himself permanently to anything but a human body, which precludes any notions of other worlds and other loci of divine attention.

The Bible is very Theocentric and Anthropocentric, because the Bible is all about the theandric person - Jesus Christ.

Either we are a bunch of electrons descended from a monkey, or we are God's pinnacle of creation.

84 posted on 11/16/2003 11:46:12 AM PST by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: bluejay
Not being Christian, I do not believe that such an event ever occurred.
 
You'll probably get jumped on pretty hard after THIS statement; I'll try to be gentle ;^)
 
 
Well then: since even the great Roman Empire was drawn into His influence, just what DO you believe has caused the obviously illogical following of so many people (in the first century --dang! I can't even get away from Him there...) to worship and adore a blatent fabrication?
 
 

85 posted on 11/16/2003 11:56:21 AM PST by Elsie (Don't believe every prophecy you hear: especially *** ones........)
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To: 1john2 3and4
Exodus 34:27-29
 27.  Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel."
 28.  Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant--the Ten Commandments.
 29.  When Moses came down from Mount Sinai with the two tablets of the Testimony in his hands, he was not aware that his face was radiant because he had spoken with the LORD.

 
King James Version
 Deuteronomy 5:1-22
 1.  And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.

(1 thru 10 go here.......)
 
 22.  These words the Lord spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.
 
 
 2 Corinthians 3:3-17
 3.  Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
 4.  And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
 5.  Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
 6.  Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
 7.  But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
 8.  How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
 9.  For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10.  For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11.  For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12.  Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13.  And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14.  But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
 15.  But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
 16.  Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
 17.  Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
 
 
Galatians 1:6-9
 6.  I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
 7.  Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
 8.  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
 9.  As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
 
 
Galatians 5:1-18
1.  Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
 2.  Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
 3.  For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
 4.  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
 5.  For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
 6.  For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
 7.  Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
 8.  This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
 9.  A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
 10.  I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.
 11.  And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
 12.  I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
 13.  For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
 14.  For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
 15.  But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
 16.  This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
 17.  For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
 18.  But if ye be led of the Spirit
, ye are not under the law.
New International Version
Deuteronomy 5
1. Moses summoned all Israel and said: Hear, O Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them.

(1 thru 10 go here.......)

22. These are the commandments the LORD proclaimed in a loud voice to your whole assembly there on the mountain from out of the fire, the cloud and the deep darkness; and he added nothing more. Then he wrote them on two stone tablets and gave them to me.
 
 
2 Corinthians 3:3-17
3. You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
4. Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God.
5. Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God.
6. He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant-- not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7. Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was,
8. will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?
9. If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!
10. For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory.
11. And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
12. Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold.
13. We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away.
14. But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.
15. Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.
16. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
17. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
 
 
 
 
 
Galatians 1
6. I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel--
7. which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
9. As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
 
 
 
 
 
Galatians 5:1-18
1. It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
2. Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.
3. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.
4. You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
5. But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope.
6. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
7. You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth?
8. That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you.
9. "A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough."
10. I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion will pay the penalty, whoever he may be.
11. Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished.
12. As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
13. You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature ; rather, serve one another in love.
14. The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
15. If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
16. So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
17. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.
18. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

86 posted on 11/16/2003 11:59:04 AM PST by Elsie (Don't believe every prophecy you hear: especially *** ones........)
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To: Elsie
Are ya gettin' tired, Pat??


87 posted on 11/16/2003 12:08:26 PM PST by Dataman
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To: Elsie
Are ya gettin' tired, Pat??

No, but this is obviously a religion thread. Science just doesn't fit in here. (And vice versa, but I can't sail against the tide.)

88 posted on 11/16/2003 12:12:25 PM PST by PatrickHenry (Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.)
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To: Elsie
The Book of Genesis presents a disturbing problem for many NON-Biblebelieving peoples as well......
 
 
Forgetting the Creation conversation we are having, let's look at Babel .....
Genesis 11
 1.  Now the whole world had one language and a common speech.
 2.  As men moved eastward,  they found a plain in Shinar and settled there.
 3.  They said to each other, "Come, let's make bricks and bake them thoroughly." They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar.
 4.  Then they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the whole earth."
 5.  But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building.
 6.  The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.
 7.  Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."
 8.  So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city.
 9.  That is why it was called Babel --because there the LORD confused the language of the whole world. From there the LORD scattered them over the face of the whole earth.
Just HOW do Evolutionists 'explain' the VAST differences between LANGUAGE groups?
 
We are STILL the same 'creatures', yet the LOCATION on the Earth that you were born determines how you speak. 
What PHYSICAL process can explain this?
 
Can Linguists trace back to a 'missing link' language-wise?  (Calling Vanna White: we need some vowels!)
 
Did LANGUAGE supposedly evolve at separate times and separate places? 
 
We can SEE the ALPHABET 'evolve' over time by starting with scratches, moving to clay images, moving to inked writings, because of the dry climate that has preserved these things.  We know language is a CONSTANTLY evolving changing tool, for we've ALL seen it in our lifetime!
 
so many questions............
 
 

89 posted on 11/16/2003 12:13:52 PM PST by Elsie (Don't believe every prophecy you hear: especially *** ones........)
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To: bluejay
It is written where, the most FAVORITE place of our Heavenly Father's is and it is here on this planet earth.

It is written His children were "CREATED" to give HIM pleasure and what is required of us to give HIM pleasure.

Being a "Christian" is up to each individual. Only the Heavenly Father is a "HEART/MIND" reader and whatever side one ends upon, will be between that individual and HIM. No one will be given that "death" sentence without full knowledge and that is not given until after the "FLESH AGE".


Some overcame prior to this "flesh age", but being "FAIR" all were required to be born in the "flesh age". Those who refused got the "death sentence".








90 posted on 11/16/2003 12:14:42 PM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: PatrickHenry
The one just below is not religion. Hop on in!
91 posted on 11/16/2003 12:15:46 PM PST by Elsie (Don't believe every prophecy you hear: especially *** ones........)
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To: bondserv
OK - Lettuce firmly insert tongue in cheek here, and then ask how the orignal writers could give exact time chronologies when the zero had not been invented yet. Much less powers-of-ten, the decimal place, and the concept of millions, billions, and trillions of years.

That said, how could the writer(s) of Genesis get all the evolutionary theory and physics progression in exactly the right sequence WITHOUT Divine inspiration?

For example, Genesis is clear that there was only one continent at first, but contentinal drift wasn't predicted until the 1920's, and wasn't accepted until the mid-60's!

Genesis is clear flying creatures (insects and birds) were present before domesticated animals, but the idea that birds evolved from dinosaurs is only now coming up.

Genesis is clear that only "chaos" existed before the plasma fluids (the waters above) evolved into gaseous clouds that could condense and cause fusion. (Light" is NOT what He started the universe from!) ... yet the concept of fusion and fluid flows (separation of waters) was also only a 20th century prediction.

Each stage of today's science follows Genesis.... including the revelation of stars as the clouds cleared up ... AFTER the plants began.
92 posted on 11/16/2003 12:18:02 PM PST by Robert A. Cook, PE (I can only support FR by donating monthly, but ABBCNNBCBS continue to lie every day!)
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To: PatrickHenry
So discuss science, and ignore the "number" of the "days" used in the story. .... See 92. 8<)
93 posted on 11/16/2003 12:19:41 PM PST by Robert A. Cook, PE (I can only support FR by donating monthly, but ABBCNNBCBS continue to lie every day!)
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To: 1john2 3and4
That "tree" in Genesis was Satan. Actually, Satan's greatest deception has not happened yet, "he" gets to play the role as "Christ". Do you know which Christ shows up first?

What about that scripture that says that Christ became our sabbath, thus not one day but every day?
94 posted on 11/16/2003 12:20:57 PM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: bondserv
read later
95 posted on 11/16/2003 12:22:24 PM PST by SkyPilot
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To: Diddley
one interpretation is that there was no sun (nor moon) visible until the 3rd day.

The plants were created after the suns got lit up. (Not necessarily OUR sun, but one or more suns condensed enough to make light. Then the earth (solid planets) were formed, then the atmosphere was separated (formed) from the internal molten rock of the planet as the crust cooled.

Plants were only formed (created) AFTER the sea (one sea around the ONE continent that existed at that time) was separated from the land. Which evolutionists now tell us is what happened.

Two schools of thought follow: One is that plants DID live before the moon was formed by collision.... The other is that the moon was formed by collision before plants (bateria and the one-celled critters that changed our atmosphere into the clear oxygen/CO2 we have from the murky glop around Venus.)

Thus when Genesis says that the moon and stars were placed "for navigation in the night" he's referring to the earth's tilt aligning precisely with the north star (so people can navigate). It's not that moon and stars were suddenly created, but that the moon and stars were only becoming visible AFTER the plants cleared up the atmosphere so animals could evolve.
96 posted on 11/16/2003 12:32:24 PM PST by Robert A. Cook, PE (I can only support FR by donating monthly, but ABBCNNBCBS continue to lie every day!)
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To: Just mythoughts

Huh?

Can you post some Scripture to illustrate your points?
97 posted on 11/16/2003 12:33:57 PM PST by Elsie (Don't believe every prophecy you hear: especially *** ones........)
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To: Robert A. Cook, PE
Genesis 1:14-19
 14.  And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years,
 15.  and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so.
 16.  God made two great lights--the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.
 17.  God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth,
 18.  to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good.
 19.  And there was evening, and there was morning--the fourth day.
 
I see no NAVIGATE in here...............
 
(no NEED to, BTW, for A&E had the GARDEN in which to live.)
 
As for the NORTH star; it matters not much WHERE the axis is 'pointed', there WILL be some kind of star close to be used as a pointer to NORTH.  Sirius will NOT be the NS for too long before the presession of the Earth (just like a child's top) will cause the axis to trace a circle in the heavens that takes about 22,000 years to complete one cycle.
 
In the Southern hemisphere, there is NO  bright star that is used as the SOUTH star, merely an asterism called the Southern Cross which is fairly close to the needed location.

98 posted on 11/16/2003 12:43:24 PM PST by Elsie (Don't believe every prophecy you hear: especially *** ones........)
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To: Conservative til I die
Here is a bio for Dr. Missler.
99 posted on 11/16/2003 12:44:34 PM PST by bondserv (Alignment is critical.)
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To: Robert A. Cook, PE
Two schools of thought follow: One is that plants DID live before the moon was formed by collision.... The other is that the moon was formed by collision before plants (bateria and the one-celled critters that changed our atmosphere into the clear oxygen/CO2 we have from the murky glop around Venus.)

What we DO know for certain is that in the limited samples of rock that HAVE been returned from the Moon by our astronauts, there has been NO discovery of ANY signs of 'life'.

100 posted on 11/16/2003 12:45:14 PM PST by Elsie (Don't believe every prophecy you hear: especially *** ones........)
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