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Natives in U.S., Britain Getting Restless on Immigration
The Chicago Sun-Times ^ | November 18, 2003 | John O'Sullivan

Posted on 11/18/2003 1:13:34 PM PST by quidnunc

London – Immigration in Britain, as in the United States, is a sort of subterranean political issue. Opinion polls regularly show that the great majority of Brits and Americans favor lower levels of immigration and stricter rules on entry, but the elites (Republicans and Democrats, Labor and Tories, Big Business and Big Labor) in both countries support higher levels and laxer rules — and some even favor "open borders."

This produces an unstable hegemony of the elites. Legal immigration is now almost a million new arrivals a year and the many illegal immigrants are deported only if they have committed an additional crime. And because both parties are in agreement, these major national changes pass uncriticized. Every now and then, someone proposes to ease immigration restrictions too far — whereupon the people wake up and growl. For instance, last year the Bush administration floated the idea of an amnesty for the approximately 3 million illegal Mexican immigrants in the United States.

This provoked a popular outcry, the administration backed off, and both parties are now seeking to solve the riddle: How do you grant an amnesty to illegal immigrants without granting an amnesty. (Answer: Describe amnesty as "earned" legalization, which is the argument now being used to justify the McCain-Kolbe-Flake bill before Congress.)

Something similar has just happened in Britain. Immigration levels there have been rising silently in recent years, but the public only began to take notice with the recent publication of figures showing that more than 150,000 immigrants had arrived last year. Then David Blunkett, the Home Secretary in charge of immigration law, remarked that there was no "obvious limit" to the number of "economic migrants" that Britain could comfortably absorb. As with the amnesty of Mexican illegals, this provoked an outcry. And the seeming consensus on Britain's need for immigration began to fray.

Anyone familiar with the U.S. debate on immigration would find the British debate eerily similar. As in America advocates of higher immigration, like Blunkett, argue (a) that it is needed for economic growth, (b) that it benefits the host community economically, and (c) that in an aging economy pensions and other entitlements will collapse without immigrants to pay into the system. In the light of international experience, all three arguments are invalid. Take each in turn:

-snip-

(Excerpt) Read more at suntimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: aliens; immigrantlist; immigration; johnosullivan

1 posted on 11/18/2003 1:13:35 PM PST by quidnunc
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To: quidnunc
Immigration into the US should be managed in the following manner.

1) Control the borders to the point where we actually know who is crossing them, how many are crossing and where they are going. If we have to build Hadrian's Wall, let's get to work on it.

2) Require long-term immigrants to be registered and check up on them every so often. Only allow one long-term (longer than 1 month) trip to the US. At it's conclusion, the immigrant applies for US citizenship or doesn't come back.

3) Limit the number of people allowed in the US on long-term arraingements to a smaller, more manageable number.

4) Award a long-term visa or citizenship on a basis of merit.

5) Never put a non-citizen on the dole.
2 posted on 11/18/2003 1:19:00 PM PST by .cnI redruM ('Bread and Circuses' ...Fun until you run out of dough.)
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To: quidnunc
The Mrs., an anglophile, says "It's the evils of the Empire coming home to roost."

So what's coming to roost for us with all these Mexicans?
3 posted on 11/18/2003 1:20:11 PM PST by warchild9
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To: quidnunc
1. Announce that U.S. borders will be closed effective on a given date -- call it B-Day.

2. Militarize the borders — armor, air support, everything. Do not kill invaders, but round them up and put them in camps guarded by soldiers.

3. Beginning six months before B-Day, require all U.S. residents to register at their local Motor Vehicles office. Citizens must bring proof of citizenship (birth certificate, naturalization papers, or other official documents) and submit to a fingerprinting and photograph. Have states issue citizens a standard U.S. Citizen Identification Card.

4. Beginning three months prior to B-Day, enact regulations that require all employers to verify the citizenship status of all employees. Enact legislation to make hiring non-citizens a federal crime (except as specifically allowed by law).

5. Two months prior to B-Day: announce an eight-week amnesty for all illegal aliens in the United States. Make it plain that anyone caught inside the country without the legal right to be here will be arrested, tried, and (if convicted) either imprisoned or deported.

6. One month prior to B-Day: begin reporting incarcerated aliens to their countries of origin.

7. Border Day: Seal the borders. Only U.S. citizens, visa holders, and others with specific legal authorization to be here are allowed in. Begin arresting illegal aliens. Announce a six-month amnesty for those caught attempting illegal entry. During amnesty period, illegals (now known as "invaders") are to be arrested and deported without trial.

8. B-Day plus six months: Amnesty ends. Annouce the existence of a fifty-mile-deep martial law zone paralleling the border. Reveal that minefields and other active defenses have been emplaced along borders. Announce that local commanders will have shoot-to-kill discretion against invaders while within martial law zone.

9. Pass Human Trafficking Act. Institute death penalty for coyotes and others who smuggle invaders into the country.

10. Create a United States Citizenship Academy on Ellis Island in New York. Those who wish to enter U.S. must be accepted by Academy, pass a one-year course + citizenship exam, and have serious reason for entering U.S.

All this done well, the immigration problem will be solved. Too bad it'll never happen.
4 posted on 11/18/2003 1:31:12 PM PST by B-Chan (Catholic. Monarchist. Texan. Any questions?)
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To: quidnunc
in 1980 there were more indians living in england then there was ever brits living in indian.
5 posted on 11/18/2003 1:32:16 PM PST by camas
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To: B-Chan
I think we might need a United States Citizenship Academy for people who were born here.
6 posted on 11/18/2003 1:40:34 PM PST by dljordan
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To: quidnunc
There are a minumum of three issues that will force me to vote lebertarian instead of Republican this next election:

1. Continued curtailment of Second Ammendment rights.
2. Continued open border with Mexico.
3. No attempt to curb "zero tolerance" stupidity in public institutions and policy.
4. No attempt to "reign in" destruction of the second half of the First Amendmant.

There are other issues, but these are the hottest. I hope those congresscritter readers that allegedly read this site are looking at this reply.

7 posted on 11/18/2003 1:41:29 PM PST by GingisK
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To: B-Chan
10. Create a United States Citizenship Academy on Ellis Island in New York. Those who wish to enter U.S. must be accepted by Academy, pass a one-year course + citizenship exam, and have serious reason for entering U.S.

Where are you going to house them? NYC is pretty crowded as is. Even with reduced immigration, you'd still be talking a couple of hundred thousand people every year. What about people here on specialized, short-term work visas?(think about academics teaching at a US university for 6-12 months) Does it really take a year of study to learn how to be a US citizen?

Your other proposals would also serve to keep out about 500,000 retired Canadians who live in Florida and other warm spots in the US ("snowbirds") who are allowed to be in the US for 6 months a year, but tend to stay year round. Few of them become citizens, but they contribute a lot of money to the US economy.

8 posted on 11/18/2003 1:47:04 PM PST by Modernman (What Would Jimmy Buffet Do?)
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To: quidnunc
Wait til the illegals start to take advantage of the homosexual marriage angle the Mass SJC has okayed.

Lip licking Lesbians leer lovingly at luscious Latinas.
9 posted on 11/18/2003 1:52:07 PM PST by swarthyguy
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To: *immigrant_list; A Navy Vet; Lion Den Dan; Free the USA; Libertarianize the GOP; madfly; B4Ranch; ..
ping
10 posted on 11/18/2003 1:57:19 PM PST by gubamyster
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To: quidnunc
This issue is America's timebomb with the silent fuse.

How many years will it be before something very nasty happens? The general population is NOT happy with the mass influx of illegals and that includes most American hispanics (I'm in Calif so the problem here is Mexico for the most part). This issue will boil over eventually and it's not going to be pretty. People are getting frustrated and eventually will get irrational.

All the while BOTH parties stand at our borders with open arms, a wink and a nod and OUR open wallets. It's pathetic.
11 posted on 11/18/2003 1:58:01 PM PST by Ribeye (Protective headwear courtesy of Reynolds Aluminum Products Anti-implant Division)
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To: Ribeye
Add Yankee colonists to that mix, and you get an idea of what real Southerners feel right now. Outside of the cities (where Northerners are a good source of income), the resentment and irritation are rising quickly.
It's a good thing televised sports is keeping everyone, North and South, passive.
12 posted on 11/18/2003 2:14:58 PM PST by warchild9
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To: warchild9
...it's no picnic working with southerners up here for higher wages. Slower than molasses in February. :)
13 posted on 11/18/2003 2:43:40 PM PST by taxed2death (A few billion here, a few trillion there...we're all friends right?)
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To: dljordan
I think we might need a United States Citizenship Academy for people who run for elected office.
14 posted on 11/18/2003 2:47:23 PM PST by B4Ranch (Wave your flag, dont waive your rights!)
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To: Ribeye
The new way of life
15 posted on 11/18/2003 2:54:52 PM PST by B4Ranch (Wave your flag, dont waive your rights!)
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To: Ribeye
From the County’s perspective, you need to approach the issue of resident illegal aliens from two angles: financial and political. They are not the same.

Financial

Contact the local hospital, school district, fire district (or paramedics), and jail. Estimate the case-load of illegals in each institution as a percentage of the total. Ask the controller for each what are his total variable costs for services. Multiply total variable costs by percentage of illegals. Contact the County CFO. Get the amount of the budget for each of those funcitons. If you want to get sophisticated, ask what might be saved in overtime costs without illegals. The total is an easily defensible number for what your County actually stands to save on those costs.

NOTE: Use only variable costs. The people and equipment don’t go away when you get rid of the illegals.

NOTE: If you replace illegals with comparable legal residents, many of them will be medically uninsured and will represent no medical cost savings. The true savings will be getting rid of criminals and getting citizens off welfare roles.

Realize that public schools get money for their enrollment, legal or otherwise. If your schools have a third illegals, think of what that impact means to their cash flow. You will probably have some unused classrooms and have to lay off some teachers, but then, once you replace illegal workers, you may not reduce the census that much. That’s the first cut (and the easiest).

Then estimate the number of unemployed who might get jobs if the illegals were gone. That may in fact be your biggest cost savings. Realize, if it was a mining or ranching town, you will have difficulty getting many of them to work as house cleaners, gardeners, and busboys.

Be conservative with these numbers. If you want to replicate the program to other counties, your officials will have to back you up that your estimates were good when they get the call. The key is to have HONEST cash flow calcs ready, not assumptions. You might need a CPA with government experience more than a lawyer.

Political

Remember: they aren’t used to enforcing the law. Get your local population educated to the idea of electing a Sheriff who will face down the Federal government. Between FAIR, Mountain States Legal, and various other reform think tanks, there is enough information out there on the legal powers sheriffs possess.

I disagree completely about going to judges for advice. A lot of them are Masons and thus have dual loyalties. Be careful on this one. Check them out thoroughly before approaching anyone. Be especially on guard for the agent provocateur who will lay down and roll over at the critical moment.

Sheriffs are the top LEO in each County. They have been avoiding trouble with the States and Feds by not enforcing the laws we want enforced. They will have to believe that we will support them if they show courage and vote them out if they don’t. Remind them of this:

"The federal Gov't may neither issue directives requiring the States to address particular problems, nor command State' officers, or those of their political subdivisions, to administer or enforce a federal regulatory program. It matters not whether policy making is involved, and no case by case weighing of the burdens or benefits is necessary; such commands are fundamentally incompatible with our constitutional system of dual sovereignty."

Justice Antonin Scalia, Mack vs US., June 27, 1997

Note: “regulatory programs” are not necessarily statutes.

Don’t expect much from help from democracy.

Steps to Implementing Law Enforcement

Step 0. The most productive cut is to get rid illegals with a criminal background. They are not only a hazard and a cost in the usual sense, they will be the ones most likely to get seriously violent and destructive when you start the rest of the program. I don’t know how to go about that, but I see it as critical.

It would be really neat if somebody could start a service business that would run the checks, identify origins and residential status, GUARANTEE that the findings were accurate subject to third party audit, and issue a private form of ID, basically saying, ‘Well, they’re clean in every respect except that they are illegals. At least we know they aren’t terrorists.’ Don’t count on FedGov for help here. They will be too slow to be effective.

That may seem wimpy to you, but getting rid of criminals will keep more LEO resources available for the rest of the program. Remember: this is about pulling this off on a shoestring. These counties are already hurting. Crimes are expensive. This is a way to reduce costs and clear out detention facilities for when the time comes.

Step 1. Set up local 800 numbers and a web site (updated daily) listing available jobs and housing in the County. Advertise its existence. Put the infrastructure in place to manage the transition first and make sure it works or you will be caught in the lurch because speed is necessary in the rest of this program.

Step 2. Retain extra sheriff’s deputies or obtain a list of volunteers. Train them.

Step 3. Advertise for legal workers for the local restaurants, farms, ranches, gas station to replace the workers who will be leaving (radio is most cost effective, Spanish too). Announce in the newspapers of the surrounding counties that the lack of enforcement of illegal employment will end by a specific date. I suggest 30 days. Target the date when seasonal operations are slow. Warn businesses to expect acts of vandalism and theft when the illegals leave. Illegals will start leaving right away creating housing and job openings if there was a shortage. Welfare costs for illegal aliens should fall. This alone will do much for your local budget and taxes.

Start enforcing vagrancy laws to round up the displaced workers. Offer them a bus ticket to Vegas in lieu of detention and delivery to the INS office in Vegas (that’s right, give them to Clark County (hehehehe)). Remember to move no faster than the local detention facility (or the bus line) can handle.

NOW YOU START SIEZING RESIDUAL ASSETS. All assets not removed from the County must be assigned by the illegal alien to be sold with registered agents or they will be seized by the Sheriff and sold. These funds will be divided between the Sheriffs Office and the County budget offices for expenses.

Start advertising those assets as inducements for more legal workers. By this time you had better see the legal workers arriving or you are in deep pucky. Remember also to have some extra volunteer deputies on hand for the likely acts of vandalism and theft when these weasels leave. Step 4. Start enforcing the employment laws by pulling the business license of any operation that employs illegal aliens. My suggestion is that you start with the restaurant industry. Restaurants are a social node, a place from which the word will get out in a hurry.

This hits the corporate franchise as hard as the locally owned businesses. If you do the sequence properly (hitting the corporations first) locally owned businesses will be the immediate beneficiaries of their competitors’ customers. That keeps more cash in town.

Step 5. Now start instituting your fines for employers of illegals. This would prompt employers to demand that their employees bring in verification of legal residency. That’s where the third party listed above comes in. This keeps the government out of our personal records any more than necessary.

I think this one is foolish unless it is done after a grace period and after implementing the rest of the program. Otherwise, you are expecting the Sheriff, as an elected official, to run around fining business people, the largest group of campaign donors in his constituency. It won’t happen.

Second, you are saddling the businesses in your county with fines when they are in a recession in an impoverished area. If you want them to go broke, fine, but how will they then hire legal residents without cash?

Third, you are making the businesses in your county that export out of the county less competitive with other counties in the area, so even if they comply they might go broke anyway.

Fourth, many will dispute the fines and that will saddle the County with expensive legal costs. It is politically untenable to arrest and fine people giving aid or care to illegal aliens.

When counties have adopted these measures and start refusing Federal funds, State officials will realize that citizens are serious about protecting their communities.

Only when they start electing legislators on this basis however, will it prompt them to demand that law enforcement agencies enforce ALL the laws or their budgets will be cut.

16 posted on 11/18/2003 2:59:52 PM PST by B4Ranch (Wave your flag, dont waive your rights!)
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To: quidnunc
bump
17 posted on 11/18/2003 3:02:17 PM PST by RippleFire
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To: Ribeye
"(I'm in Calif so the problem here is Mexico for the most part)."

So were you aware of this little tid bit?

http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20031117-085550-1804r.htm "....The Marches also met with Mrs. Feinstein. She came out of the meeting, they believed, with real passion for solving the problem. "During that meeting," Feinstein spokesman Howard Gantman said, "my boss made a commitment that she would do everything she could to try to bring back Mrs. March's husband's killer."

In August, Mrs. Feinstein wrote Mexican President Vicente Fox asking him to change Mexico's extradition policy. Last week, she introduced a resolution, co-sponsored by Republican Sen. Sam Brownback of Kansas, calling on President Bush to renegotiate the extradition treaty. Her statement said "at least 350 people have committed murder and other major offenses in California, fled to Mexico to escape prosecution, and have either not been extradited or have been effectively rendered nonextraditable...."

18 posted on 11/18/2003 3:09:56 PM PST by Ursus arctos horribilis ("It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!" Emiliano Zapata 1879-1919)
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To: quidnunc
Such problems cannot be ignored indefinitely.

...but the powers are trying their level best.

19 posted on 11/18/2003 3:21:00 PM PST by skeeter (Fac ut vivas)
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To: quidnunc
...tick...tick...tick...
20 posted on 11/18/2003 3:23:47 PM PST by 4.1O dana super trac pak (Don't avoid. Read Joe Guzzardi.)
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To: warchild9
My Dad and his entire family are from Knoxville and the surrounding area. We hear about this all the time from them.

TV's making everyone apathetic...
21 posted on 11/18/2003 3:44:26 PM PST by Ribeye (Protective headwear courtesy of Reynolds Aluminum Products Anti-implant Division)
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To: B4Ranch
"The most productive cut is to get rid illegals with a criminal background. They are not only a hazard and a cost in the usual sense, they will be the ones most likely to get seriously violent and destructive when you start the rest of the program. I don’t know how to go about that, but I see it as critical."

We are working on this right now. We live on 30 acres just 15m min north of the Santa Clarita Valley (So Cal). It's always been nice and peacful and the neighbors we DO have have always been great. They keep to themselves, keep an eye on each others property and help to keep people from dumping trash, tresspassing, etc.
Well now, in the next canyon over we have a proplem with a guy who bought some land, dumped a couple of run down trailers on it and now runs a Mexican restaurant under a big tarp every Sunday! There's no water, no electriciy, no sewer, nothing. We've counted 150+ car's in and out on one day alone. He slaughters animals on Saturday night and start cooking. Sunday they serve beer and food. He's told the cops it is his "extended family". He muist have a large family because I have logged over 400 differnt license plates.

Now, I have no problems with people doing what they want on their land and long as it doesn't interfere with me. But our issues are:

1) Amplified music 8am through 6pm all day Sunday that we can hear in our house. They have generators.
2) Trash (Beer bottles, wrappers, etc) all along the mile road to the paved highway fromhis drunken customers.
3) His lost customers driving up our road and OPENING OUR GATES trying to find this illegal set up. I've run several belligerent non-english speaking people off my proprty at gun point. Then called the cops.
4) Drunks walking up to our house and hiking into our canyons and harassing my family and horses.
5) Drunk customers driving the dirt road to the paved highway at high speed (this is a horse trail)

We've called the cops every Sunday (as have the other residents) and we now have the health dept and INS on our radar but so far they are all dragging their feet or deferring us to other agencies. The cops and health dept and have admitted that most of the people down at this place are probably illegals. They also say there are similar operations popping up all over So Cal. It's very frustrating.


22 posted on 11/18/2003 4:06:47 PM PST by Ribeye (Protective headwear courtesy of Reynolds Aluminum Products Anti-implant Division)
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To: Ribeye
Borrow an INS or Border Patrol uniform and slowly drive by the place a few times. Check with the tax agencies to see if this guy is paying taxes on time. That'll get a response!
23 posted on 11/18/2003 8:58:13 PM PST by B4Ranch (Wave your flag, dont waive your rights!)
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To: B-Chan
Honorable B-Chan, your model is too Eurocentric. Old immigration based on European countries with max of 35 Million inhabitants. New immigration based on Asian Model, 3.5 Billion inhabitants, Latin American Model 1.5 Billion inhabitants.

Your Ellis Island must now be size of Alaska, grasshopper. America over.

24 posted on 11/18/2003 10:32:04 PM PST by Kenny Bunk
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To: Ursus arctos horribilis
Very aware of that case. A coule of local radio guys have been on it for a while.

There was another cop killed yesterday in Burbank (bastard shot the cop 12 times point blank). Authorites say friends and familiy are hiding the killer (19yr old gang punk)in Sun Valley. I got a dollar that says he's on his way to Mexico right now.
25 posted on 11/19/2003 8:47:58 AM PST by Ribeye (Protective headwear courtesy of Reynolds Aluminum Products Anti-implant Division)
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To: taxed2death
Actually, when I was working in New York City, the natives told me to slow it down. And we weren't unionized, either.

Ahhh, NYC...how I miss those book stores and real Italian restaurants...
26 posted on 11/19/2003 10:54:50 AM PST by warchild9
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To: Ribeye
I hesitate to point it out, but Knoxville is historically pro-Yankee country. Check your history.
Your relatives need to check out the League of the South, and seek redemption.
27 posted on 11/19/2003 10:56:51 AM PST by warchild9
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To: gubamyster; FoxFang; FITZ; moehoward; Nea Wood; Joe Hadenuf; sangoo; appalachian_dweller; ...
They best start listening!
28 posted on 11/19/2003 12:18:58 PM PST by JustPiper (All 19 of the hijackers entered the U.S. on valid visas- 18 of 19 had State Driver's Licenses!!!)
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To: Ribeye
approximately 3 million illegal Mexican immigrants in the United States

That approximately covers at least 10 million more Mexicans. If I'm wrong, I'll buy each of the others a shot of tequila.

29 posted on 11/19/2003 12:50:37 PM PST by Kenny Bunk
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To: GingisK
>> There are a minumum of three issues that will force me to vote lebertarian instead of Republican this next election:
1. Continued curtailment of Second Ammendment rights.
2. Continued open border with Mexico.

I assume you mean "Libertarian", and if so, you'd be voting for a party with THIS platform:

OFFICIAL PARTY STATEMENT
"The Libertarian Party has long recognized the importance of allowing free and open immigration, understanding that this leads to a growing and more prosperous America. We condemn the xenophobic immigrant bashing that would build a wall around the United States... A policy of open immigration will advance the economic well-being of all Americans... Any discussion of immigration must include a warning about the threat to civil liberties posed by many of the proposals to limit immigration. Recent legislation to restrict immigration has included calls for a national identity card for all Americans. Representative Lamar Smith (R-TX) has proposed legislation that would require employers to consult a national registry of workers before hiring anyone, effectively giving the U.S. government control over every hiring decision by every business in America. Other legislation has contained provisions penalizing people who fail to "inform" on people they "suspect" might be illegal immigrants. Such Orwellian nightmares have no place in a free society, but are the natural outgrowth of an obsession with restricting immigration."

2000 LP Party Platform - Immigration
We hold that human rights should not be denied or abridged on the basis of nationality. We condemn massive roundups of Hispanic Americans and others by the federal government in its hunt for individuals not possessing required government documents. We strongly oppose all measures that punish employers who hire undocumented workers. Such measures repress free enterprise, harass workers, and systematically discourage employers from hiring Hispanics. We welcome all refugees to our country and condemn the efforts of U.S. officials to create a new "Berlin Wall" which would keep them captive. We condemn the U.S. government's policy of barring those refugees from our country and preventing Americans from assisting their passage. Undocumented non-citizens should not be denied the fundamental freedom to labor and to move about unmolested. Furthermore, immigration must not be restricted for reasons of race, religion, political creed, age, or sexual preference. We therefore call for the elimination of all restrictions on immigration, the abolition of the Immigration and Naturalization Service and the Border Patrol, and a declaration of full amnesty for all people who have entered the country illegally.

Wow, brillant plan from the LP. Let's have open borders so the country's population will swell to 1 billion people within a few decades, that will surely bring about "economic well-being" for "everyone" already here. And abolish all border agencies and controls, we can have the U.S. and Mexico effectively merge, I'm sure that's a great step towards liberty and freedom. We all know much they value the will of the people in Mexico, a shining example of democracy < /sarcasm>

It's an interesting idea-- vote Libertarian to "stop" open borders. I had a "pro-life" Democrat friend who told me she was voting Democrat because the Republicans weren't doing enough to stop abortion. You guys must have attended the same school of logic.

30 posted on 11/19/2003 1:48:08 PM PST by BillyBoy (George Ryan deserves a long term...without parole.)
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Comment #31 Removed by Moderator

To: BillyBoy
Well well. You know how to hurt a guy! Thanks for pointing out that interesting tidbit, as I will take it very seriously. I suppose I'll have to start my own political party since none of the others represent me or the Constitution.

I guess I need to study the "Constitution Party", or maybe dust off all of that Confederate money.

32 posted on 11/20/2003 6:35:51 AM PST by GingisK
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