French Milan Missile may have Knocked Out U.S. Tank (my title)

SciScoop ^ | 10/31/03 | Sciscoop

[anotherGerman]

The Merkava sure is an interesting concept. I guess as a sole tanker I would probably like to be in one of those.

[Poohbah]

The L2A6 uses a gun that is actually too long for urban engagements--it can't traverse to the side except on main thoroughfares or at intersections.

[anotherGerman]

Yes, the Abrams is actually widely considered the best in the world.

No it´s not. The French believe in their LeClerc, the Israelis in the Merkava, the British in the Challenger, the Germans in the Leopard.. I think you get the picture. I am not aware of the firm you are talking about. All I have is a pdf document with an American study with the Leopard II coming out best (mainly due to the new gun). Everywhere where they had the L2 as a competitor for a new MBT, it came out as the winner (Sweden for instance or Turkey).

[Yasotay]

In this forum you had better know what you are writing about ... YOUR statements are wrong! Having been a Company Commander in the Berlin Brigade I know how arrogant Germans can be (and wrongfully so), I bought a BMW (Buying Mediocre Work) from a US C.A.T. (Canadian Army Trophy) Commander (he took that company to war not to a game)... those "exercises" are a joke ... and do not NOT in ANY way reflect normal tank crews. Anyways, at that time the US was always winning that exercise. The Germans that went to the our training centers got "smoked" far worse then the Americans and as for the Dutch, they would probably go on strike. I'd like to see how the Dutch or Germans would do on Tank Tables V-VIII. BTW ... that CAT Company Commander killed a Tank Battalion on Medina Ridge during Desert Storm. How do you spell COMBAT EXPERIENCE? You can have the MBT 70 :)

[anotherGerman]

In this forum you had better know what you are writing about ... YOUR statements are wrong! Having been a Company Commander in the Berlin Brigade I know how arrogant Germans can be (and wrongfully so),

Wow, this is of course a classy statement full of truth. /sarcasm

"Anyways, at that time the US was always winning that exercise"

Which time? Here is some other proof:

"Mit den 3 Panzer-Typen M 48, LEOPARD 1 und 2 erreichtedie deutsche Panzertruppe in den 80er Jahren überdurchschnittliche Ausbildungsergebnisse und eine hohe Einsatzbereitschaft. Von 17 internationalen Schießwettbewerben um die Canadian Army Trophy konnte die deutsche Panzertruppe 10 Wettbewerbe gewinnen und 7 mal den zweiten Platzbelegen."

Meaning: "With the 3 tank types M48, Leopard 1 and 2 the German Tank Crews reached better than average results. Out of 17 CAT Trophys the Germans won 10 and were second in the other 7."

http://www.panzertruppe.com/I_PzTr/PzTr/pztr.html

"For example, German conscript units have won the famous Canadian army trophy in the armored vehicle competition more frequently than has any other NATO nation. The same applies to the Boeselager competition for armored reconnaissance troops. In the evaluation of the Commander, Stabilization Forces (SFOR), German units in Bosnia, also consisting of conscripts with prolonged time of service, are performing as well as the units of professional armies in the field."

http://www.ndu.edu/inss/strforum/SF164/forum164.html

I do of course admit that combat experience is VERY VERY important. Just don´t always go along and assume that Americans are best at everything. They are not. Neither are Germans.

[r9etb]

Don't ask...don't tell.

Maybe not -- but it sure explains why he dresses the way he does....

[Yasotay]

Until the late 80s and early 90s the US Army did not handpick crews for CAT nor give the crews unlimited range time. We were told that was normal in the German Army. The Germans would always "deny" that practice. When we did "handpick" crews and handed over Graf to them ... we won. One of the times I went to a real training center, HTA, we rotated right after the first German Army did a "rotation". The OCs were ordered NOT to talk about how poor the German Army did .... the huge limitations that the Germans put on training in Germany clearly impacts poorly on tank crew quality. I hope the Germans are taking their training more seriously. Go to the NTC and see the Regiment deploy in the "Valley of Death". Then watch a rotation of Live Fire in the Northern Area of the NTC (Range 305 at Graf is OK but not the same). The US Army clearly trains it's tank crews better then the Germans or Dutch. Unit and Crew training is the REAL key to making a better tank....not the tank.

When the US Army does "assume" we are the best then we are indeed in trouble. If the After Action Reviews (AARs)at the training centers become nice .... then I'll worry. Most of the Germans I knew would consider the lessons learned at AARs insulting and might even walk out.