No Exceptions for Democracy in China

Project for the New American Century ^ | November 15, 2003 | Ellen Bork

[harpseal]

I would suggest you go nback to the howard Dean blog where you are much happier and leave teh adults alone.

[Texas_Dawg]

teh

[harpseal]

TEH

Now go take some blood pressure meds.

[Lazamataz]

Ok, SM, time to haul this over to The Combat Zone. I got me some DAWG to hunt... :o)

[taiwansemi]

Have u ever visited Third World republics like Brazil, Indonesia, S. Africa, and Turkey? I think you'll find a whole lot more economic chaos in these supposedly pristine "democracies" than you will in China. Again, just ask yourself why are today's Third World republics such utter jokes that can't seem to get themselves off the ground?

[Texas_Dawg]

Interesting story I learned last night, TS... Some Texans I know are working with business/friend connections of theirs in China to establish Christian companies/factories in China. Several already exist and a friend of mine has just moved to China from Texas to work on creating even more and to help send American money into these factories in China. These factories not only employ Christians but provide for safe environments for the Christians to worship the Lord and provide support for their families and their non-Christian neighbors in their communities as well. Lazamataz and harpseal and others like them at Free Republic wish to shut these factories down (the Chinese government does not even want to do that!) and force these Christians back into Chinese Communist factories where they will make far less money and be banned from any religious practice.

[tallhappy]

Like I say, GWB is working to change that Chinese government and make it more free.

Unfortunatley, not. He is not. He's a great President in many ways, but in this arena, no. He is doing the opposite of what you say.

And somehow I do not see in scripture where being a Christian means supporting the communist government of China.

But maybe you have a different translation.

[Cronos]

Ah, yes, democracy bad, communism good. Keep the masses happy and workign hard for the great leader! American democracy is too messy for taiwansemi, so he prefers the peace and stability provided by the GReat Leader. Perhaps we should invite Kim Il sung's grandson to be our benevolent leader.

[Texas_Dawg]

But maybe you have a different translation.

Post #106.

[tallhappy]

Again, how does any of that mean you should support for the communist government of China?

[Texas_Dawg]

Again, how does any of that mean you should support for the communist government of China?

Never said it does. Lazamataz supports banning what I mentioned above. That's where I have a problem. (As does GWB.)

[taiwansemi]

The thing that you continue to fail to realize is that democracy is a fine system of government for countries that already have a middle-class, but terrible for today's Third World countries that have majority-poor populations. Remember, it was the "bourgeoisie" that led the French Revolution and Americans annoyed about King George's taxes on their "bourgeois" international trading activities ("No taxes without representation!") that led the American Revolution.

But for Third World republics with majority-poor populations, democracy just gives the vote to a majority-poor population, who tend to vote left, that is, for a massive welfare state and anti-capitalist policies. This has been the story of India for over the past 50 years. Even in the U.S., the poor people tend to vote Democratic, so why would you expect different in Third World republics with majority-poor populations?

As we speak, poor people in Latin America have voted in socialist leaders like Chavez and Lula, and in Russia the population (which is 50% poor) supports Putin over the super-rich oligarchs. The Western media dislikes Putin, but he has a 75% approval rating in his own country.

I'll tell you again, it's really hard for democracy to take root in a country and flourish unless it has a majority or near-majority middle-class population. Just look at America's own difficulties in setting up democracies in Afghanistan and Iraq. It's definitely not an overnight process as you imagine but takes decades at least, especially to build up a strong middle-class. East Asia's one-party governments all built up strong middle-class populations over many decades before they made the leap to full multi-party democracy. If you don't understand history, you will never be able to truly understand anything. You will just shout, "Democracy now! Democracy now!" like an unthinking robot. And again foreign investors avoid investing in today's Third World republics like the plague and prefer "communist" China instead for all the reasons I gave above.

[Cronos]

The thing that you continue to fail to realize is that democracy is a fine system of government for countries that already have a middle-class

More commie propaganda. By your definition democracy should not have worked in 18th century America or 19th century Europe. Don't spout any more commie propaganda stating that the people need a Glorious leader to rule like in China or in N Korea.

[taiwansemi]

Cronos wrote: "More commie propaganda. By your definition democracy should not have worked in 18th century America or 19th century Europe. Don't spout any more commie propaganda stating that the people need a Glorious leader to rule like in China or in N Korea."

By the start of the 18th century, both America and Europe had large middle-class population. I suggest you actually read your old high school history book. These middle-classes came about as a result of the Industrial Revolution and were called the "bourgeoisie." It wasn's peasants who led the American and French Revolutions, introducing modern democracy, but the bourgeoisie/middle-classes. Did you even know that half the signers of the U.S. Declaration of Independence were in the business of international trade, i.e. middle-men? And America's biggest complaint with England was excessive, burdensome taxation: "No taxation without representation!" It's not poor peasants who don't have money to tax to begin with that are worried about over-taxation. It's people who have money that can be taxed--i.e., middle-classes--that started Revolutions in America and Europe to escape the burden of taxes!

[Cronos]

By the start of the 18th century, both America and Europe had large middle-class population

Read up -- the middle class wasn't a substantial force until the mid 1800s, that's when your Karl Marx came up with his Das Kapital in 1848

[Cronos]

Your definition -- that democracy doesn't work in a country with a majority nto middle class. WEll, the majority in Amrerica and Europe before the 20th centruy were NOT middle class. Democracy works everywhere except in your commie paradise.