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U.S. soldier accused of beating Iraqi prisoners says, `It is war'
SFgate ^ | (11-25) 10:26 PST PHILADELPHIA (AP) -- | DAVID B. CARUSO

Posted on 11/26/2003 9:53:19 AM PST by ConservativeMan55

Edited on 04/13/2004 2:45:00 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

U.S. soldier accused of beating Iraqi prisoners says, `It is war'

One of four American MPs charged with beating prisoners of war at a detention camp in Iraq said Tuesday: "We were doing our jobs. ... It is war. It is not back home where everybody is safe."


(Excerpt) Read more at sfgate.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: beating; iraq; mp; police; pow; staff; war
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To: ConservativeMan55
You really must be pissed because you are not or never will be in charge!
101 posted on 11/26/2003 11:40:06 AM PST by verity
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To: DannyTN
Well...maybe some of these countries need a little radiation to brighten their day.

102 posted on 11/26/2003 11:40:28 AM PST by ConservativeMan55 (The left always "feels your pain" unless of course they caused it.)
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To: Eagle Eye
Doesn't matter. There's no need to know.

Have you ever heard of DITHF? Just wondering....

103 posted on 11/26/2003 11:41:11 AM PST by r9etb
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To: r9etb
"how foolish your statement was"

You've changed my mind.

Damn these lieing eyes of mine!!

104 posted on 11/26/2003 11:41:58 AM PST by laotzu
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To: r9etb
Just for your knowledge, when they say that 'fellow soldiers testified', this isn't to say that they brought the charges.

The way it works in the military these days is that anyone connected with an event that generates a complaint will be forced to sign a sworn statement regarding what they saw. The Iraqis could have filed the complaint, or an officer who was worried about his career could have done so. The soldier's testimony is simply that they witnessed or had knowledge of the event.

If a soldier saw another punch or kick a prisoner, they have to state that they did, regardess of whether or not it was self defense. I've had to testify about an event that I witnessed, even though I didn't initiate the complaint, and there was no actual wrongdoing. The military is simply trying to cover it's ass, which is SOP when there is any possibility of negative publicity.

105 posted on 11/26/2003 11:42:18 AM PST by Steel Wolf (Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son)
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To: r9etb
Is usually used now as an admonition to be suspicious or not so impressed or gullible regarding someone's claims.

AND YOU AREN'T SUSPICIOUS OF THE FILTHY TERRORIST?
106 posted on 11/26/2003 11:42:58 AM PST by ConservativeMan55 (The left always "feels your pain" unless of course they caused it.)
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To: r9etb
You haven't been around many jail houses here in the states have you.To set an example to other prisoners so they do what they are told is to single one out that doesn't and beat the s%$#@t out of him,after that everyone else falls in line.The same holds true in basic training if one doesn't listen,they are made examples of.Yes it is crude but yes it does work and does get results.
107 posted on 11/26/2003 11:43:50 AM PST by eastforker (Money is the key to justice,just ask any lawyer.)
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To: ConservativeMan55
One of four American MPs charged with beating prisoners of war at a detention camp in Iraq said Tuesday: "We were doing our jobs. ... It is war. It is not back home where everybody is safe."

This is what so many people seem to have forgotten. This is war, not a social gathering. My God what is wrong in this country?

108 posted on 11/26/2003 11:46:34 AM PST by ladyinred (The Left have blood on their hands!)
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To: ConservativeMan55

109 posted on 11/26/2003 11:46:55 AM PST by ConservativeMan55 (The left always "feels your pain" unless of course they caused it.)
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To: ladyinred
Whats wrong with this country?

Whats wrong is that a small minority of "r9etb's" have gained control of the Universities and the Media.

We have to stop them before they seep into everything else.

Its like grape juice. You can get the stain out, but it takes work.
110 posted on 11/26/2003 11:48:25 AM PST by ConservativeMan55 (The left always "feels your pain" unless of course they caused it.)
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To: ConservativeMan55
Sure I'm suspicious of the terrorists.

But if I work hard to extract the full meaning of your subtly nuanced opinions, I am forced to the following conclusion:

You are claiming that the American soldiers who investigated the case, brought the guards up on charges, took testimony, have far more facts on the case than you do; who found against the guards, and demoted/discharged them ...

Well, those American soldiers who ruled against the guards must be pro-Iraqi terrorist-lovers, too.

Is that about it?

111 posted on 11/26/2003 11:49:11 AM PST by r9etb
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To: r9etb
"You are claiming that the American soldiers who investigated the case, brought the guards up on charges, took testimony, have far more facts on the case than you do; who found against the guards, and demoted/discharged them ..."

I'm not claiming that at all. In fact the article doesn't even mention half of the crap you just posted! Did you make that up or do you have an alternative source you aren't sharing?
112 posted on 11/26/2003 11:50:58 AM PST by ConservativeMan55 (The left always "feels your pain" unless of course they caused it.)
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To: ladyinred
By the way...saw your picture on your profile page. You are quite an attractive lady in red.
113 posted on 11/26/2003 11:51:28 AM PST by ConservativeMan55 (The left always "feels your pain" unless of course they caused it.)
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To: ladyinred
My God what is wrong in this country?

So now there's something wrong in this country if we think it's wrong for guards to beat prisoners?

Don't forget -- the military did the investigation, questioned the witnesses, and ruled against the guards.

I guess it all boils down to which set of soldiers you want to believe.

114 posted on 11/26/2003 11:52:56 AM PST by r9etb
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To: ConservativeMan55
Not quite.A BCD is more of an administration action where an dishonorable discharge is more of a judicial action.Someone correct me if I am wrong but IIRC it takes a general courts martial to assess a DHD.Also many companies like Exxon or Phillips etc. will not hire with anything less than a HD.
115 posted on 11/26/2003 11:54:10 AM PST by eastforker (Money is the key to justice,just ask any lawyer.)
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To: r9etb
There is not one single soul. Not one single person who claims that she did not act out of self-defense.

You can't cite that in the article.

The only person who actually describes "anything" that happened is the soldier herself.

No one else says she wasn't acting out of self-defense.

Can you get that through your thick head?
116 posted on 11/26/2003 11:55:26 AM PST by ConservativeMan55 (The left always "feels your pain" unless of course they caused it.)
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To: ConservativeMan55
Shawna Edmondson, a 24-year-old Army reservist, accepted a demotion and a discharge rather than face a court martial, and returned to her hometown in northeastern Pennsylvania last week.

I stand corrected -- she accepted demotion/discharge in lieu of a court martial. However, the facts of investigation, testimony by fellow soldiers, and demotion/discharge are correct as stated.

But I repeat the question: are you telling us that the American soldiers who filed charges, investigated the case, and took testimony -- are they pro-terrorist Iraqi lovers, or not?

117 posted on 11/26/2003 11:56:04 AM PST by r9etb
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To: eastforker
Ohhhh ok. I see. Thanks.
118 posted on 11/26/2003 11:56:46 AM PST by ConservativeMan55 (The left always "feels your pain" unless of course they caused it.)
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To: r9etb
The American Soldiers did not testify that she beat the prisoner!
119 posted on 11/26/2003 11:57:33 AM PST by ConservativeMan55 (The left always "feels your pain" unless of course they caused it.)
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To: ConservativeMan55
Can you get that through your thick head?

Apparently not. The only person claiming self-defense is the one who's got the most to gain from having us believe it. It's not terribly compelling, I'm afraid.

The nasty, pro-Iraqi American military investigators obviously thought otherwise, otherwise she (and the other three -- don't forget them) would never have faced charges in the first place.

Oh, wait -- we're supposed to forget about the Americans who investigated this, aren't we?

Tell you what, C-man: instead of insulting me, why don't you vent your spleen on the soldiers over in Iraq who brought these charges in the first place?

120 posted on 11/26/2003 12:03:39 PM PST by r9etb
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To: r9etb
No one else ever said that she wasn't acting in self-defense.

Thats all you need to know. She was the only one that actually described what happened.

But yet you still take the side of the Iraqi terrorist.

I hope that they don't let you out during the daytime hours.
121 posted on 11/26/2003 12:05:15 PM PST by ConservativeMan55 (The left always "feels your pain" unless of course they caused it.)
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To: ConservativeMan55
I don't see anything wrong with wanting high standards. Yes, this is war, but unnecessary brutality against unarmed prisoners should be avoided. EPWs should be cared for and treated with respect. As PC as it sounds there is tremendous advantage for our side if we know we're better than the enemy, and it's good for them to know that if they surrender they'll be treated well. I'm all for treating EPWs in a professional manner.

That having been said.

There is a point where this is not feasible. Some people do not want to graciously accept leniency, but instead see it as a weakness to exploit. These rules can be twisted back against us. As we can see in Baghdad, Baathist dead enders are firing mortars from civilian neighborhoods because they know we won't fire back. We could fire back, but then we'd be hitting civilian areas.

It's a very delicate balance, but overall it is best that we take every effort to be in the right. We should also understand that we're not perfect. We often put our people in very, very dicey situations and expect perfect performance, but that's neither realistic nor fair. Given how careful we have been in every other aspect, we should at least give our guys the benefit of the doubt.

122 posted on 11/26/2003 12:07:03 PM PST by Steel Wolf (Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son)
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To: ConservativeMan55
The American Soldiers did not testify that she beat the prisoner!

According to the article:

Fellow soldiers testified that the four Pennsylvania reservists punched and kicked prisoners who were being brought to an American camp in southern Iraq on May 12. One prisoner suffered a broken nose.

So you might want to revise your opinion.

Unless perhaps you'll next be trying to tell us that punching and kicking do not qualify as "beating," at least not when "it's war?"

123 posted on 11/26/2003 12:07:46 PM PST by r9etb
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To: Steel Wolf
Amen again! You are really hitting the home runs today!
124 posted on 11/26/2003 12:07:58 PM PST by ConservativeMan55 (The left always "feels your pain" unless of course they caused it.)
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To: af_vet_1981
Don't forget she has to sit on the couch across from Diane Sawyer, tear up a few times, and tell the American people how the Army "used her" only then can you be called a true American hero...
125 posted on 11/26/2003 12:08:12 PM PST by SAMS
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To: r9etb
"Fellow soldiers testified that the four Pennsylvania reservists punched and kicked prisoners who were being brought to an American camp in southern Iraq on May 12. One prisoner suffered a broken nose."

Where does it say anything about the actions of the prisoner? Unless you can cite that you are wrong.
126 posted on 11/26/2003 12:09:11 PM PST by ConservativeMan55 (The left always "feels your pain" unless of course they caused it.)
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To: Steel Wolf
EPWs should be cared for and treated with respect

I don't think they deserve any respect. They're Baath Party officials and Syrian terrorists.

127 posted on 11/26/2003 12:09:22 PM PST by Lijahsbubbe (Take my advice; I don't use it anyway.)
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To: Lijahsbubbe
They certainly wouldn't treat us with respect.
They'd kill us and drag our bodies around the streets.

128 posted on 11/26/2003 12:10:15 PM PST by ConservativeMan55 (The left always "feels your pain" unless of course they caused it.)
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To: ConservativeMan55
But yet you still take the side of the Iraqi terrorist.

Yeah, right.

The facts of the story are there for you to read. When you care to behave like a rational being, then I will be happy to discuss this further.

Until then, have a nice Thanksgiving.

129 posted on 11/26/2003 12:10:23 PM PST by r9etb
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To: r9etb
Happy Thanksgiving to you to. Enjoy it.
130 posted on 11/26/2003 12:11:24 PM PST by ConservativeMan55 (The left always "feels your pain" unless of course they caused it.)
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Comment #131 Removed by Moderator

To: ConservativeMan55
Thanks for spitting on his grave.

That soldier didn't die so that Americans could beat prisoners with impunity.

132 posted on 11/26/2003 12:14:37 PM PST by r9etb
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To: laotzu
Abuse button hit.
133 posted on 11/26/2003 12:15:20 PM PST by r9etb
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To: ConservativeMan55
Edmondson said she will see if she can get her old job back at the university. Her discharge, which came after a demotion from sergeant to private, will probably bar her from pursuing her plan to become a police officer.

Edmondson said she joined the reserves 41/2 years ago with the intent of getting training that would be useful in a career in law enforcement.

Texas Department of Corrections would probably hire her ... they don't screw around with mercy.

134 posted on 11/26/2003 12:15:56 PM PST by Centurion2000 (Resolve to perform what you ought, perform without fail what you resolve.)
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To: r9etb
Nope. He died because unruly prisoners took control of a prison.
135 posted on 11/26/2003 12:18:04 PM PST by ConservativeMan55 (The left always "feels your pain" unless of course they caused it.)
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To: r9etb
There's just no apologizing to some people.
136 posted on 11/26/2003 12:23:15 PM PST by laotzu
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To: ConservativeMan55
Touche' -- however, Spann was questioning prisoners, not guarding them.

And if he'd been beating prisoners unprovoked, then he would have deserved punishment, too.

137 posted on 11/26/2003 12:23:19 PM PST by r9etb
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To: Lijahsbubbe
I don't think they deserve any respect. They're Baath Party officials and Syrian terrorists.

I understand what you're saying. The deal is, once they surrender, they should be disposed of by as fair and legal means as possible. For Baathist thugs, I'd hope that would be a speedy trial and speedier execution. For Iraqi conscripts, I'd hope they get a slap on the wrist and sent on their way. Weed out the bad ones, and make the neutral ones yours.

Once you build a reputation, like we have, of dealing with prisoners lenienly, then wars become pretty easy. We had entire divisions surrender to us, mostly full of people that didn't want to be there. There was no 'Stalingrad at Baghdad' because their army collapsed rather than fight us. It saves American lives, it saves non-U.S. lives and it saves time and effort.

Now, as always, our military has no sense of perspective. Put yourself in the mind of the average Iraqi. If you heard that the occasional former Baathist official or Syrian fighter got a little roughed up while in an EPW camp, would you think that the Americans are all that terrible? Think about it.

138 posted on 11/26/2003 12:23:41 PM PST by Steel Wolf (Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son)
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To: BeerSwillr
How do you know she did nothing wrong? I will wait for the evidence. The military does have a legal system that works pretty well. We don't have the smoke and mirrors of the civilian system. The facts will come out.
The one thing that seems to be a trend on FR is people forgetting that one of the foundations of the military is discipline. Without that we won't defeat anyone. Soldiers must obey orders even when they do not agree.
And dealing with 25 million civilians is complex no matter where you go in the world. And actions such as this have an effect on that. No matter how much you may want to, we can not and will not kill all Iraqis. So we have to try to deal with them. It is not my policy, it is GW's, and I support him. So I will do as ordered so long as it is a lawful order, even if I don't agree with it.
139 posted on 11/26/2003 12:26:47 PM PST by MPJackal (Right makes Might)
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To: ConservativeMan55
Anyone that can't stomach the worst ugliness that un-humanity can dish out shouldn't be in a war. That's the real world -- I can't wish it away. Those cutthroats won't offer mercy, and none should be given. </Barbarian>
140 posted on 11/26/2003 12:28:10 PM PST by TexasRepublic (Liberal = Socialist = Communist)
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To: MPJackal
"How do you know she did nothing wrong?"

Because she claims she did nothing wrong. Thats all I need.
141 posted on 11/26/2003 12:28:20 PM PST by ConservativeMan55 (The left always "feels your pain" unless of course they caused it.)
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To: r9etb
How do you propose dealing with prisoners that attack guards daily?

In a prison of 8000?

We don't want them to like us. We want them to FEAR us.
142 posted on 11/26/2003 12:29:36 PM PST by ConservativeMan55 (The left always "feels your pain" unless of course they caused it.)
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To: ConservativeMan55
Isn't that what OJ, Mikey Jackson, Robert Blake, oh, and Billy Clinton say also?
143 posted on 11/26/2003 12:30:22 PM PST by MPJackal (Right makes Might)
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To: ConservativeMan55
Because she claims she did nothing wrong. Thats all I need.

And you probably also believe he's spending every waking moment looking for Nicole's real killer, too.

144 posted on 11/26/2003 12:32:25 PM PST by r9etb
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To: MPJackal
GMTA....
145 posted on 11/26/2003 12:32:42 PM PST by r9etb
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To: MPJackal
"Isn't that what OJ, Mikey Jackson, Robert Blake, oh, and Billy Clinton say also?"

You are equating people and situations that should not be equated. OJ, Michael Jackson, Robert Blake and Bill Clinton were not credible figured in the middle of a war.

They weren't attacked. They didn't have a clean history. And the figures going up against them weren't terrorist scumbags.
146 posted on 11/26/2003 12:32:54 PM PST by ConservativeMan55 (The left always "feels your pain" unless of course they caused it.)
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To: r9etb
"Isn't that what OJ, Mikey Jackson, Robert Blake, oh, and Billy Clinton say also?"

You are equating people and situations that should not be equated. OJ, Michael Jackson, Robert Blake and Bill Clinton were not credible figures in the middle of a war.

They weren't attacked. They didn't have a clean history. And the figures going up against them weren't terrorist scumbags.
147 posted on 11/26/2003 12:34:35 PM PST by ConservativeMan55 (The left always "feels your pain" unless of course they caused it.)
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To: r9etb
You didn't even read the article, did you?

Yeah, you Iraqi sympathizer, I not only read it, I posted a quote from it. That's more than you did to support your position.

The article describes the guards beating the prisoners. It also says that they said it was self defense. There is nothing in there about it be an unprovoked attack as you claimed. That means you lied in order to take sides against the US soldiers.

You defaulted to the Iraqi's and there is no way out of that. Calling you a POS was an insult to shog in the worst privies in the third world.

148 posted on 11/26/2003 12:35:22 PM PST by Eagle Eye (I'm a RINO. I'm far too conservative to be a real Republican.)
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To: ConservativeMan55
That really is irrelevant to your comment. Her (who don't think you know) statement is all the FACTS you need. Solid evidence. That was my point.
149 posted on 11/26/2003 12:36:00 PM PST by MPJackal (Right makes Might)
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To: MPJackal
Her statement is all I need. She is a credible person going up against a terrorist.

She is the only one that describes the situation.
150 posted on 11/26/2003 12:37:09 PM PST by ConservativeMan55 (The left always "feels your pain" unless of course they caused it.)
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