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Remembering Red victims
The Washington Times ^ | November 30, 2003 | Jeffrey T. Kuhner

Posted on 11/30/2003 2:07:27 AM PST by Cincinatus' Wife

Edited on 07/12/2004 4:10:55 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

The 20th century will be remembered as the bloodiest century in history. A major reason was the 1917 establishment by Vladimir Lenin and his Bolsheviks of a Marxist regime in Russia. The Soviet Union was the epicenter of a communist empire that, until its disintegration in 1991, spread doctrines of economic collectivism and class struggle to almost every part of the globe. From Eastern Europe to Africa to Latin America to Asia, hundreds of millions suffered the brutality of Marxist-Leninist dictatorships.


(Excerpt) Read more at washtimes.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: communism; memorial
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1 posted on 11/30/2003 2:07:27 AM PST by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
What a marvellous project! But can it really be accomplished in less than a year?
2 posted on 11/30/2003 2:15:23 AM PST by Byron_the_Aussie (http://www.theinterviewwithgod.com/popup2.html)
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To: Byron_the_Aussie
Hillary Clinton and the Radical Left By David Horowitz

Hillary Clinton and the "Third Way"

If others could understand your truth, you would not think of yourself as a "vanguard." You would no longer inhabit the morally charmed world of an elite, whose members alone can see the light and whose mission is to lead the unenlightened towards it. If everybody could see the promised horizon and knew the path to reach it, the future would already have happened and there would be no need for the vanguard of the saints.

MY SUBJECT is Hillary Clinton in her role as America's foremost leftist. This is not an obvious idea to those leftists who identify themselves as radicals. Purists of the creed are likely to regard both Clintons as opportunists and sellouts of their cause. But the left is not and has never been a political monolith, and its factions have always attacked each other almost as ferociously as their political enemies.

It is possible to be a socialist, and radical in one's agendas, and yet moderate in the means one regards as practical to achieve them. To change the world, it is first necessary to acquire cultural and political power. And these transitional goals may often be accomplished by indirection and deception even more effectively than by frontal assault. Political stratagems that appear moderate and compromised to radical factions of the left may present an even greater threat from the perspective of the other side. In 1917, Lenin's political slogan wasn't "Socialist Dictatorship! Firing Squads and Gulags!" It was "Bread, Land and Peace."

Yet Hillary Clinton as America's "first lady of the left," is also not an obvious subject to many conservatives. And since conservative politics begins with the defense of America's constitutional order, this is a far more significant matter. Underestimating the foe on any battlefield can be a fatal fault; in politics likewise.

This problem is exemplified in a brilliantly etched and elegantly deconstructed portrait of Mrs. Clinton by former Reagan speechwriter Peggy Noonan. Thus, the focus of The Case Against Hillary Clinton is not Mrs. Clinton's kitsch Marxism or perverse feminism or cynical progressivism. Instead, it is her narcissism. It is this psychological nexus in which Noonan finds the key to Hillary Clinton's public persona. It is almost as though Mrs. Clinton's politics were merely instrumental to her career, as changeable as her famous hairstyles.

"Never has the admirable been so fully wedded to the appalling," Noonan writes of the subject and her faithless spouse. "Never in modern political history has such tenacity and determination been marshaled to achieve such puny purpose: the mere continuance of Them."

The wit is sharp but the point just wide of the mark. There are many unprincipled narcissists in politics. But there has never been a White House so thoroughly penetrated by the political left. Noonan's psychological characterization is surely correct. But if Hillary and Bill Clinton were unable to draw on the dedication and support of the left-if they were Republicans, for example-there would be no prospect of a continuance of Them.

Ever since abandoning the utopian illusions of the progressive cause, I have been struck by how little the world outside the left seems to actually understand it. How little those who have not inhabited the progressive mind are able to grasp the ruthless cynicism behind its idealistic mask or the fervent malice that drives its hypocritical passion for "social justice."

No matter how great the crimes progressives commit, no matter how terrible the future they labor to create, no matter how devastating the catastrophes they leave behind, the world outside the faith seems ever ready to forgive them their "mistakes" and to grant them the grace of "good intentions."

It would be difficult to recall, for example, the number of times I have been introduced on conservative platforms as "a former civil rights worker and peace activist in the 1960s." I have been described this way despite having written a detailed autobiography that exposes these self-glorifying images of the left as so many political lies. Like many New Left leaders whom the young Mrs. Clinton once followed (and who are her comrades today), I regarded myself in the 1960s as a socialist and a revolutionary. No matter what slogans we chanted, or ideals we proclaimed our agendas always extended beyond (and well beyond) the immediate issues of "civil rights" and "peace."

New Left progressives-including Hillary Clinton and her comrade, Acting Deputy Attorney General Bill Lann Lee-were involved in supporting, or protecting or making excuses for violent anti-American radicals abroad like the Vietcong and anti-American criminals at home like the Black Panthers.* We did this then-just as progressives still do now-in the name of "social justice" and a dialectical world-view that made this deception appear ethical and the fantasy seem possible.

As a student of the left, Jamie Glazov, has observed in an article about the middle-class defenders of recently captured Seventies terrorist Kathy Soliah: "if you can successfully camouflage your own pathology and hatred with a concern for the 'poor' and the 'downtrodden,' then there will always be a 'progressive' milieu to support and defend you."* Huey Newton, George Jackson, Bernadine Dohrn, Sylvia Baraldini, Rubin Carter, Mumia Abu-Jamal, Rigoberta Menchu and innumerable others have all discovered this principle in the course of their criminal careers.

There is a superficial sense, of course, in which we were civil rights and peace activists-and that is certainly the way I would have described myself at the time, particularly if I were speaking to a non-left audience. It is certainly the way Mrs. Clinton and my former comrades in the left refer to themselves and their pasts in similar contexts today.

But they are lying. (And when they defend racial preferences now-a principle they denounced as "racist" then-even they must know it).

The first truth about leftist missionaries, about believing progressives, is that they are liars. But they are not liars in the ordinary way, which is to say by choice. They are liars by necessity-often without even realizing that they are. Because they also lie to themselves. It is the political lie that gives their cause its life.

Why, for example, if you were one of them, would you tell the truth? If you were serious about your role in humanity's vanguard, if you had the knowledge (which others did not), that you were certain would lead them to a better world, why would you tell them a truth that they could not "understand" and that would hold them back?

If others could understand your truth, you would not think of yourself as a "vanguard." You would no longer inhabit the morally charmed world of an elite, whose members alone can see the light and whose mission is to lead the unenlightened towards it. If everybody could see the promised horizon and knew the path to reach it, the future would already have happened and there would be no need for the vanguard of the saints.

That is both the ethical core and psychological heart of what it means to be a part of the left. That is where the gratification comes from. To see yourself as a social redeemer. To feel anointed. In other words: To be progressive is itself the most satisfying narcissism.

That is why it is of little concern to them that their socialist schemes have run aground, burying millions of human beings in their wake. That is why they don't care that their panaceas have caused more human suffering than all the injustices they have ever challenged. That is why they never learn from their "mistakes." That is why the continuance of Them is more important than any truth.

If you were active in the so-called "peace" movement or in the radical wing of the civil rights causes, why would you tell the truth? Why would you tell people that no, you weren't really a "peace activist," except in the sense that you were against America's war. Why would you draw attention to the fact that while you called yourselves "peace activists," you didn't oppose the Communists' war, and were gratified when America's enemies won?

What you were really against was not war at all, but American "imperialism" and American capitalism. What you truly hated was America's democracy, which you knew to be a "sham" because it was controlled by money in the end. That's why you wanted to "Bring the Troops Home," as your slogan said. Because if America's troops came home, America would lose and the Communists would win. And the progressive future would be one step closer.

But you never had the honesty-then or now-to admit that. You told the lie then to maintain your influence and increase your power to do good (as only the Chosen can). And you keep on telling the lie for the same reason.

Why would you admit that, despite your tactical support for civil rights, you weren't really committed to civil rights as Americans understand rights? What you really wanted was to overthrow the very Constitution that guaranteed those rights, based as it is on private property and the individual-both of which you despise.

It is because America is a democracy and the people endorse it, that the left's anti-American, but "progressive" agendas can only be achieved by deceiving the people. This is the cross the left has to bear: The better world is only achievable by lying to the very people they propose to redeem.

Despite the homage contemporary leftists pay to post-modernist conceits, despite their belated and half-hearted display of critical sentiment towards Communist regimes, they are very much the ideological heirs of Stalinist progressives, who supported the greatest mass murders in human history, but who remember themselves as civil libertarian opponents of McCarthy and victims of a political witch-hunt. (Only the dialectically gifted can even begin to follow the logic involved.)

To appreciate the continuity of communism in the mentality of the left, consider how many recent Hollywood promotions of the industry Reds and how many academic apologies for Stalinist crimes (in fact, the vast majority of recent academic texts on the subject) have been premised on the Machiavellian calculations and Hegelian sophistries I have just described.

Naturally, today's leftists are smart enough to distance themselves from Soviet Communism. But the Soviet dictator Nikita Khrushchev was already a critic of Stalin forty years ago. Did his concessions make him less of a Communist? Or more?

On the other hand, conservative misunderstanding of the left is only in part a product of the left's own deceits. It also reflects conservatives' inability to understand the religious nature of the progressive faith and the power of its redemptive idea. For instance, I'm often asked by conservatives about the continuing role and influence of the Communist Party, since they observe quite correctly the pervasive presence of so many familiar totalitarian ideas in our academic and political culture. Though still around and sometimes influential in the left, the Communist Party has been a minor player for nearly fifty years. How can there be a communist left (small "c" of course) without a Communist Party?

The short answer is that it was not the Communist Party that made the left, but the (small 'c') communist Idea. It is the idea, as old as the Tower of Babel, that humanity can build a highway to Heaven. It is the idea of returning to an Earthly Paradise, a garden of social harmony and justice. It is the idea that inspires Jewish radicals and liberals of a tikkun olam, a healing of the cosmic order. It is the Enlightenment illusion of the perfectibility of man. And it is the siren song of the serpent

in Eden: "Eat of this Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and you shall be as God."

The intoxicating vision of a social redemption achieved by Them-this is what creates the left, and makes the believers so self-righteous.

And it did so long before Karl Marx. It is the vision of this redemption that continues to inspire and animate them despite the still-fresh ruins of their Communist dreams.

It is this same idea that is found in the Social Gospel which impressed the youthful Hillary Clinton at the United Methodist Church in Park Ridge, Illinois. She later encountered the same idea in the New Left at Yale and in the Venceremos Brigade in Communist Cuba, and in the writings of the New Leftist who introduced her to the "politics of meaning" even after she had become America's First Lady. It is the idea that drives her comrades in the Children's Defense Fund, the National Organization for Women, the Al Sharpton House of Justice and the other progressive causes which for that reason still look to her as a political leader.

For these self-appointed social redeemers, the goal-"social justice"-is not about rectifying particular injustices, which would be practical and modest, and therefore conservative. Their crusade is about rectifying injustice in the very order of things. "Social Justice" for them is about a world reborn, a world in which prejudice and violence are absent, in which everyone is equal and equally advantaged and without fundamentally conflicting desires. It is a world that could only come into being through a re-structuring of human nature and of society itself.

Even though they are too prudent and self-protective to name this future anymore, the post-Communist left still passionately believes it possible. But it is a world that has never existed and never will. Moreover, as the gulags and graveyards of the last century attest, to attempt the impossible is to invite the catastrophic in the world we know.

But the fall of Communism taught the progressives who were its supporters very little. Above all, it failed to teach them the connection between their utopian ideals and the destructive consequences that flowed from them. The fall of Communism has had a cautionary impact only on the overt agendas of the political left. The arrogance that drives them has hardly diminished. The left is like a millenarian sect that erroneously predicted the end of the world, and now must regroup to revitalize its faith.

No matter how opportunistically the left's agendas have been modified, however, no matter how circumspectly its goals have been set, no matter how generous its concessions to political reality, the faithful have not given up their self-justifying belief that they can bring about a social redemption. In other words, a world in which human consciousness is changed, human relations refashioned, social institutions transformed, and in which "social justice" prevails.

Because the transformation progressives seek is ultimately total, the power they seek must be total as well. In the end, the redemption they envision cannot be achieved as a political compromise, even though compromises may be struck along the way. Their brave new world can ultimately be secured only by the complete surrender of the resisting force. In short, the transformation of the world requires the permanent entrenchment of the saints in power. Therefore, everything is justified that serves to achieve the continuance of Them.

In Peggy Noonan's psychological portrait of Hillary Clinton, one can trace the outlines of the progressive persona I have just described. She observes that the "liberalism" of the Clinton era is very different from the liberalism of the past. Clinton-era liberalism is manipulative and deceptive and not really interested in what real people think because "they might think the wrong thing."

That is why Hillary Clinton's famous plan to socialize American health care was the work of a progressive cabal that shrouded itself in secrecy to the point of illegality. Noonan labels Clinton-era politics "command and control liberalism," using a phrase with a familiar totalitarian ring. But, like so many conservatives I have come to know, Noonan is finally too decent and too generous to fully appreciate the pathology of the left.

She begins her inquiry by invoking Richard Nixon's comment that only two kinds of people run for high office in America, "those who want to do big things and those who want to be big people." She identifies both Clintons as "very much, perhaps completely, the latter sort," and clinically examines their narcissism by way of unlocking the mystery of who they really are.

Regarding the husband, Peggy Noonan is probably right. I do not think of Bill Clinton as a leftist inspired by ideas of a socially just world, or as having even a passing interest in the healing of cosmic orders. He is more readily understood as a borderline sociopath. Fully absorbed in the ambitions of self, Clinton is a political chameleon who assumes the coloration of his environments and the constituencies on which his fortunes have come to depend.

Hillary Clinton is not so slippery. Despite the cynicism she shares with her husband, one can clearly observe an ideological spine that creates political difficulties for her that one knows he would be able to avoid. This is not to deny the force of her personal ambitions or the power of her narcissistic regard. But these attitudes could be expected in any member of a self-selected elite, especially one like the left, which is based on moral election.

For this reason, it would be difficult to separate the narcissistic from the ideological in the psychology of any political missionary. Do they advance the faith for the sake of the faith, or because advancing the faith will turn them into saints? Do the Lenins of history sacrifice normal life in order to achieve "big things" or because they hunger for the canonization the achievements will bring? It is probably impossible to finally answer the question. But we can observe that the narcissism of Stalin-ex-seminarian, Father of the People and doer of epic revolutionary deeds-makes the Clintons' soap opera of self-love pale by comparison.

Despite their life-long collaboration, Bill and Hillary Clinton are different political beings in the end. Her marital rages provoked by a mate whose adolescent lusts put their collective mission at risk are probably a good measure of just how different they are.

"In their way of thinking," Noonan observes of the Clintons, "America is an important place, but not a thing of primary importance. America is the platform for the Clintons' ambitions, not the focus of them." The implication is that if they were principled emissaries of a political cause, the ambition to do big things for America would override all others. Instead, they have focused on themselves and consequently have made the American political landscape itself "a lower and lesser thing."

They have "behaved as though they are justified in using any tactic in pursuit of their goals," including illegality, deception, libel, threats and "ruining the lives of perceived enemies . . . " They believe, she continues, "they are justified in using any means to achieve their ends for a simple and uncomplicated reason. It is that they are superior individuals whose gifts and backgrounds entitle them to leadership." They do it for themselves; for the continuance of Them.

But the fact is they all do it. The missionaries of the big progressive causes, the Steinems, the Irelands, the Michelmans, the Friedans, and Hillary Clinton herself, were all willing to toss their feminist movement overboard to give Bill Clinton a pass on multiple sexual harassments, and on a career of sexual predation that reflects his utter contempt for the female gender.

Indeed, the Clinton-Lewinsky defense-accord which the feminists signed onto, can be regarded as feminism's Nazi-Soviet Pact. Their calculation was both simple and crude: If Clinton was removed, Hillary would go too. But she was their link to patronage and power, and they couldn't imagine losing that. Their kind was finally in control of the White House, and the conservative enemies of their beautiful future were not.

Almost a decade earlier-in the name of the very principles they so casually betrayed for Clinton-the same feminists had organized the most disgraceful lynching of a public figure in America's history. Despite fiercely proclaimed commitments to the racial victims of American persecution, they launched a vicious campaign to destroy the reputation of an African American jurist who had risen, unblemished, from dirt-shack poverty in the segregated south to the nation's highest courts. They did it knowingly, cynically, with the intent to destroy him in his person, and to ruin his public career.

Has there ever been a more reprehensible witch-hunt in American public life than the one organized by feminist leaders who then emerged as vocal defenders of the White House lecher? Was there ever a more sordid betrayal of common decency than this collective defamation-for which no apology has or ever will be given?

What was the sin Clarence Thomas committed to earn such punishment? The allegation-that he had talked inappropriately ten years before to a female lawyer and made her uncomfortable-appears laughable in the post-Lewinsky climate of presidential gropings and borderline rapes that the same feminists have sanctioned for their political accomplice. Thomas' real crime, as everybody knew but was too intimidated by the hysteria to confirm at the time, was his commitment to constitutional principles they hated. They hated these principles because the Constitution was written for the explicit purpose of preventing the realization of their socialist and egalitarian dreams.

Peggy Noonan is right. The focus of Hillary Clinton's ambition is not her country. But it is not just herself either. It is also a place that does not exist. It is the vision of a world that can only be achieved when the Chosen accumulate enough power to change this one.

That is why Hillary and Sid Blumenthal, her fawning New Left Machiavelli, call their own political philosophy the politics of "The Third Way." This distinguishes it from the "triangulation" strategy Dick Morris used to resurrect Bill Clinton's presidency. Morris guided Clinton, in appropriating specific Republican policies towards a balanced budget and welfare reform as a means of securing his re-election. Hillary Clinton was on board for these policies, and in that sense is a triangulator herself. But "triangulation" is too merely tactical and too morally crass to define a serious political philosophy. Above all, it fails to project the sense of promise that intoxicates the imaginations of self-styled "progressives." That is why Hillary and Sid call their politics "The Third Way."

"The Third Way" is a familiar term from the lexicon of the left with a long and dishonorable pedigree in the catastrophes created by messianic socialists in the 20th Century. It is the most ornate panel in the tapestry of deception I described at the beginning of this essay.

In the 1930s, Nazis used "The Third Way" to characterize their own brand of national socialism as a equidistant between the "internationalist" socialism of the Soviet Union and the capitalism of the West. Trotskyists used "The Third Way" as a term to distinguish their own Marxism from Stalinism and capitalism. In the 1960s, New Leftists used "The Third Way" to define their politics as an independent socialism between the Soviet gulag and America's democracy.

But as the history of Nazism, Trotskyism and the New Left have shown, there is no "Third Way." There is the capitalist, democratic way based on private property and individual rights-a way that leads to liberty and universal opportunity. And there is the socialist way of group identities, group rights, a relentless expansion of the political state, restricted liberty and diminished opportunity. The Third Way is not a path to the future. It is just the suspension between these two destinations. It is a bad faith attempt on the part of people who are incapable of giving up their socialist schemes to escape the taint of their discredited past.

Is there a practical difference in the modus operandi of Clinton narcissism and Clinton messianism? I think there is, and it is the difference between "triangulation"-a cynical compromise to hang onto power until the next election cycle, and "The Third Way"-a cynical deception to ensure the continuance of Us, until we acquire enough power to transform everyone else. It is the difference between the politics of getting what you can, and the politics of changing the world.

A capsule illustration of these different political ambitions can be found in the book Primary Colors , which describes, in thinly veiled fiction, Bill Clinton's road to the presidency. Primary Colors is an admiring portrait not only of the candidate, but of the dedicated missionaries-the true believing staffers and the long-suffering wife-who serve Clinton's political agendas, but at the price of enabling the demons of self.

These staffers-political functionaries like Harold Ickes and George Stephanopoulos-serve as the flak-catchers and "bimbo eruption"-controllers who clean up his personal messes and shape his image for gullible publics. But they are also the idealists who design his message. And in the end, they enable him to politically succeed.

It is Primary Colors' insight into the minds of these missionaries that is revealing. They see Clinton clearly as a flawed and often repellent human being. They see him as a lecher, a liar and a man who would destroy an innocent person in order to advance his own career. (This is, in fact, the climactic drama of the text). Yet through all the sordidness and lying, the personal ruthlessness and disorder, the idealistic missionaries faithfully follow and serve the leader.

They do it not because they are themselves corrupted through material rewards. The prospect of fame is not even what drives them. Think only of Harold Ickes, personally betrayed and brutally cast aside by Clinton, who nonetheless refused to turn on him, even after the betrayal. Instead, Ickes kept his own counsel and protected Clinton, biding his time and waiting for Hillary. Then joined her staff to manage her Senate campaign.

The idealistic missionaries in this true tale bite their tongues and betray their principles, rather than betray him. They do so because in Bill Clinton they see a necessary vehicle of their noble ambition and uplifting dreams. He, too, cares about social justice, about poor people and blacks (or so he makes them believe). They will serve him and lie for him and destroy for him, because he is the vessel of their hope.

Because Bill Clinton "cares," he is the vital connection to the power they need to accomplish the redemption. Because the keys to the state are within Clinton's grasp, he becomes in their eyes the only prospect for advancing the progressive cause. Therefore, they will sacrifice anything and everything-principle, friends, country-to make him succeed.

But Bill Clinton is not like those who worship him, corrupting himself and others for a higher cause. Unlike them, he betrays principles because he has none. He will even betray his country, but without the slightest need to betray it for something else-for an idea, a party, or a cause.* He is a narcissist who sacrifices principle for power because his vision is so filled with himself that he cannot tell the difference.

But the idealists who serve him-the Stephanopoulos's, the Ickes's, the feminists, the progressives and Hillary Clinton-can tell the difference. Their cynicism flows from the very perception they have of right and wrong. They do it for higher ends. They do it for the progressive faith. They do it because they see themselves as having the power to redeem the world from evil. It is that terrifyingly exalted ambition that fuels their spiritual arrogance and justifies their sordid and, if necessary, criminal means.

Continued below.

3 posted on 11/30/2003 2:17:37 AM PST by Cincinatus' Wife
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Continued

And that is why they hate conservatives. They hate you because you are killers of their dream. Because you are defenders of a Constitution that thwarts their cause. They hate you because your "reactionary" commitment to individual rights, to a single standard and to a neutral and limited state obstructs their progressive designs. They hate you because you are believers in property and its rights as the cornerstones of prosperity and human freedom; because you do not see the market economy as a mere instrument for acquiring personal wealth and political war chests, to be overcome in the end by bureaucratic schemes.

Conservatives who think progressives are misinformed idealists will forever be blind-sided by the malice of the left-by the cynicism of those who pride themselves on principle, by the viciousness of those who champion sensitivity, by the intolerance of those who call themselves liberal, and by the ruthless disregard for the well-being of the downtrodden by those who preen themselves as social saints.

Conservatives are caught by surprise because they see progressives as merely misguided, when in fact they are fundamentally misdirected. They are the messianists of a religious faith. But it is a false faith and a self-serving religion. Since the redeemed future that justifies their existence and rationalizes their hypocrisy can never be realized, what really motivates progressives is a modern idolatry: their limitless passion for the continuance of Them.

4 posted on 11/30/2003 2:18:02 AM PST by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
There are two coverups. One, the coverup of the fact that communism killed far more people than naziism did, and two, that naziism is, in fact, a LEFT wing ideology, not a right wing one.

National Socialism is --- above all other things --- a form of socialism. There was no more a free market in Nazi Germany than there was in Stalin's Russia.

Naziism and Communism are ideological soulmates and partners in crime.
5 posted on 11/30/2003 2:18:50 AM PST by samtheman
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To: Byron_the_Aussie
But can it really be accomplished in less than a year?

I don't know. The thinking could be, get it up before it's buried in red tape.

6 posted on 11/30/2003 2:18:59 AM PST by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: samtheman
***Nazism and Communism are ideological soulmates and partners in crime.***

Bump!

7 posted on 11/30/2003 2:20:32 AM PST by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
Thanks, Cincy. Printed the whole ten pages out, for careful study tomorrow. This topic's of particular interest, at the moment: I'm halfway through Anne Applebaum's Gulag.Best regards, Byron
8 posted on 11/30/2003 2:44:29 AM PST by Byron_the_Aussie (http://www.theinterviewwithgod.com/popup2.html)
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To: Byron_the_Aussie
Bump!
9 posted on 11/30/2003 2:47:24 AM PST by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
"A major reason..."
    Communism was the major reason. Nothing else has even come close to murdering 100 million innocent people.
"...the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation (www.victimsofcommunism.org) is seeking to erect a monument in D.C. dedicated to those who perished under Marxism's murderous reign."
    The "progressives" will have a fit about this. Hehe...
"...communism's crimes risk being forgotten."
    Thanks to the liberal media, public schools, the "academy" and Hollywood, most Americans don't have a clue about communism's evil.
It would be nice if the monument is followed by a museum of communism's horrors, henchmen, apologists (especially the apologists), and victims -- on a scale befitting its enormity, say, 20 times the scale of the Holocaust Museum. A special exhibit dedicated to Senator McCarthy would be welcome. He at least tried. It's funding could come out of the budget of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, National Endowment for the "Arts," and the like.
10 posted on 11/30/2003 2:59:52 AM PST by Bonaparte
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
"...before it's buried in red tape."

...by the likes of someone like Hildebeast, who stood to applaud Pol Pot on the floor of the UN.

11 posted on 11/30/2003 3:06:29 AM PST by Bonaparte
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
Conservatives who think progressives are misinformed idealists will forever be blind-sided by the malice of the left-by the cynicism of those who pride themselves on principle, by the viciousness of those who champion sensitivity, by the intolerance of those who call themselves liberal, and by the ruthless disregard for the well-being of the downtrodden by those who preen themselves as social saints.

Everyone should memorize this. It is the encapsulated explanation for what we face daily. This article you printed explains the hatred the left is feeling for President Bush. It also exposes those "true believers".

Remember when Kruschev(sp.) came here, pounded his shoe, and said, "We will bury you."? We are dangerously close to making that a reality. It is certainly a struggle between good and evil, that we are living.

12 posted on 11/30/2003 3:10:58 AM PST by patj
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To: samtheman
It was Lenin's idea to place fascism to the far right of the "political spectrum" to create the illusion that it was different from communism. And all the usual suspects in the western "intelligentsia" have eagerly perpetuated this myth.
13 posted on 11/30/2003 3:11:52 AM PST by Bonaparte
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To: Cincinatus' Wife; All
That Bloody Century Pass'd- "We have nothing to fear but Governments Themselves..."
14 posted on 11/30/2003 3:12:53 AM PST by backhoe (Just an old Cold Warrior, draggin' his BAR into the Sunset...)
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To: Bonaparte
Bump!!
15 posted on 11/30/2003 3:36:07 AM PST by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: patj
Remember when Kruschev(sp.) came here, pounded his shoe, and said, "We will bury you."? We are dangerously close to making that a reality. It is certainly a struggle between good and evil, that we are living.

Bump!!

16 posted on 11/30/2003 3:36:52 AM PST by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: backhoe
An uninformed, "needy" electorate is a "caring" politican's dream.
17 posted on 11/30/2003 3:40:53 AM PST by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: samtheman; Cincinatus' Wife
[N]aziism is, in fact, a LEFT wing ideology, not a right wing one.

I agree with you about its statist core, but to accuse it of being leftist and not right-wing is a dangerous misrepresentation of fascism.

Evil lurks at both ends of the political spectrum, and the Nazi high command was most definitely on the extreme right. Statism and the right wing are not incompatible at that level, as millions of holocaust and war dead can attest.

18 posted on 11/30/2003 3:56:19 AM PST by risk
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To: risk
Far left: All power to state, no individual rights --communism, socialism, fascism

Far right: All power to individuals, no state at all -- anarchy.
__________________________________________________________________

There is only one difference between fascism and communism, and that is the ownership (but not control) of private property, ie. land, business. Hitler was at liberty to tell I.G. Farben exactly what to produce.

19 posted on 11/30/2003 4:05:40 AM PST by Bonaparte
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
I believe that row after row of mass graves, some mounds and some always remaining just freshly dug, would be a fitting monument to communism, always ready to resume its purges.

Even Hillary has proclaimed, "The Party is the nation!".

Marx and Engles wrote Das Kapital in German, and Lenin and the Clintons et al. just ran with it. The word 'Monument' is 'Denkmal' in German. 'Denkmal' translates as 'Think Once'; thinking is appropriate and critical to our survival in the face of post-communism's corrupt World Socialism, aka FASCISM. The elites didn't just fade away forever.

This monument should be large enougn to bury the nearly hundred million, men, women, and children killed in the name of power over others.

For computational purposes, we need not consider past and future victims too fat or too healthy.

If man, woman, and child average something like 5,500 cubic inches, say 3 cubic feet each before decomposition, then we need 300,000,000 cubic feet displaced, or 3.5 million cubic meters, in honor of what Europeans wrought.

Can The Beltway or UN cope with nearly 7,000 acre feet of earth turned upside down during the DNC-Politburo's fight to regain power?

We should never forget the 20th politics, amid our rush to buy votes of pill takers with the future income of young families.

Whether called liberalism, socialsim, or communism, corrupted as is human nature, comradeship by force is dangerous fascism because people who lust for power with emoluments of the State's treasury will do anything to gain it and retain it, especially wield it.

Yes, mounds of fresh earth and muddy pits are a fitting past and future monument to political power. Think once, comrades. We are losing our last real chance at liberty.
20 posted on 11/30/2003 4:16:54 AM PST by SevenDaysInMay (Federal judges and justices serve for periods of good behavior, not life. Article III sec. 1)
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To: Bonaparte
I'm not disputing a redefinition of the model which puts no state at the right and full state control on the left. However, this is not the traditional spectrum and it is also highly simplified. For example, in the traditional spectrum, you get more state control at both ends where they meet.

Significant Political Differences between Communism and Fascism
Fascism Communism
Racial Purity Idealized Multi-racial (may be anti-semitic)
Nationalist (i.e. Italian) International
Animist or Atavistic spiritualism Atheist and/or idealizing of "human" spirit only
Distortion of ethnic history Distortion of economic history
Stressing land and race Ideological vs. visceral (i.e. "better living through economics")
Dictator is first of the race, always essential. Dictator is temporary figurehead on march to economic justice.
Industry is independent partner Industry is fully state managed
Property is owned by powerful individuals Property all owned by state (but managed by individuals)
Communism is considered biggest evil Fascism is considered biggest evil
Manipulates individual on basis of his ethnic membership Manipulates individual on his class station

There are considerable differences. But to gloss over the distinctions is naive and disrespectful to the millions that have died as a result of both evils. And they are very different, appealing to human pruriences of starkly different types.

Consider for a moment what Japan's signature on the Tripartite agreement of 1937 was all about. Realize that Hitler, Mussolini, and Tojo were equally terrified of the communist threat, which stood poised to overtake European and Asian nationalist ambitions and to usurp their hold on the national psyches of their citizens.

Fascism and communism are horrifically and historically very different. And the traditional model of communism and fascism wrapping around the spectrum at totalitarian ends is not going to go away because a few political scientists want to simplify it.

21 posted on 11/30/2003 4:33:48 AM PST by risk
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To: Cincinatus' Wife; Grampa Dave; backhoe; Enemy Of The State; Squantos; Travis McGee; veronica; ...
bump for Cincinatus' post of http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=1094 in-thread: ``In 1917, Lenin's political slogan wasn't "Socialist Dictatorship! Firing Squads and Gulags!" It was "Bread, Land and Peace."''
22 posted on 11/30/2003 4:51:25 AM PST by risk
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To: risk
Do not equate fascism only with nazism. Fascism has existed in other times and places and has had its own peculiar "flavors" (all of them bitter) that don't entirely correspond with your table. The same can be said for communism.

I must reiterate what I said before, namely, that business was not "independent," not free to go its way, in nazi Germany. It had as much freedom of movement as was convenient for Hitler at any given time. Otherwise, he told them what to do and they did it.

From Forgotten Communism by Alain Besancon...

    ONE OF the great successes of the Soviet regime was to promulgate and, eventually, to impose on the world its own ideological understanding of how political systems should be classified. Lenin reduced them essentially to two polar opposites, socialism and capitalism, a dichotomy preserved by Stalin until the 1930’s. According to this scheme, capitalism, also known as imperialism, included in its purview liberal, social-democratic, and fascist regimes, as well as National Socialism. A different scheme emerged in the 30’s to accommodate the new Soviet policy of building "popular fronts." Now the spectrum ranged from socialism—that is to say, the Soviet Union—through the bourgeois democracies (liberal and/or social-democratic), to, finally, fascism. Grouped together under the last category were Nazism, Mussolini-type fascism, the authoritarian regimes of Spain, Portugal, Austria, Hungary, Poland, and so forth, and extreme right-wing factions in liberal societies.

    Whatever the specific typology, Nazism in these schemes was erased as a category unto itself, and attached definitively either to capitalism or to right-wing fascism. It became the absolute incarnation of the Right, while Soviet socialism represented the absolute incarnation of the Left. In this way Nazism and Communism took their respective places in the great magnetic field of 20th-century politics.

    To appreciate the sleight of hand involved, one need only recall that to an earlier generation of historians, it had been perfectly clear that both Italian fascism and German Nazism had socialist roots. Thus, Elie Halévy’s classic History of European Socialism (1937) devotes a chapter each to the socialism of fascist Italy and the socialism of Nazi Germany. (The latter, indeed, had explicitly declared itself to be anti-capitalist.) Then there is the no less compelling scheme proposed as early as 1951 by Hannah Arendt, who spotlighted the essentially consanguineous nature of Nazism and Communism that I remarked upon at the outset, and divided these two representatives of modern totalitarianism from liberal and authoritarian regimes alike.

    So great was the triumph of the Communist definition of reality, however, that even today it remains deeply embedded in historical consciousness. French high-school and university textbooks, for example, still "read" the political spectrum from Left to Right, going from the Soviet Union on the Left, to the liberal democracies (with their own Lefts and Rights), to the various fascisms (German, Italian, Spanish, and so forth). This is but an attenuated version of what might be called the Soviet Vulgate.


23 posted on 11/30/2003 5:05:04 AM PST by Bonaparte
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To: Bonaparte
Good points, but it's still important to distinguish the group including NAZIs, Italian fascists, and Japanese imperialists as being distinct from and diametrically opposed to communism. All three had state control at the center of their iron grip on society, all three had socialist-like programs, but all three were nationally, racially, and atavistically centered movements as opposed to ideologically oriented attempts to reorient societies economically.

Glossing over the differences and blurring the similarities is a mistake. It's a natural one for the American right to make since it has been accused of racism, atavism, and coddling of industry. Those are ills we can scarcely afford today, and they do not represent the Republican party's core values. I think you compare the two for a useful result: showing how state power is the net evil both use to victimize humanity; but others may not be so clear in their efforts to neutralize the differences.
24 posted on 11/30/2003 5:13:59 AM PST by risk
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To: risk
They're both bad but the Left tries to make one good.
25 posted on 11/30/2003 5:44:29 AM PST by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: risk
"...diametrically opposed to communism."

    I can't go along with that, risk. Both fascism and communism are totalitarian. That and all it implies, is what's important here. That is what calls for placing them together at one end of the political spectrum, of a continuum of power-and-freedom. No other spectrum is meaningful. If there are other ways in which they characteristically differ, they can and should be pointed out.

    I see too many oversimplifications in your table. For instance, property in nazi Germany was not restricted to powerful people only. After Hitler's assumption of power, owners of small businesses continued to own those businesses. But the rights of ownership could be (and often were) snatched up by the state at any time, for any reason. What good does it do you to own a business that you don't control? You may as well be living under communism, since all you're doing is carrying out the state's directives, just like one of Stalin's factory managers.

    Likewise, ethnic cleansing is not confined to fascist regimes. Look at what the communist Chinese did to the Mongols.


26 posted on 11/30/2003 5:45:01 AM PST by Bonaparte
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To: risk
how old are you, I notice that you are very recent to this forum?

I'm 65 so I have a vivid memory of WW-II and the rowen of communism and a studied history of National Socialism from the end of WW-I...rto
27 posted on 11/30/2003 6:44:56 AM PST by visitor (dems make it difficult to speak the TRUTH)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
“...the road to Utopia goes through Golgotha.”

“...Stalin systematically starved to death about 10 million Ukrainian peasants.”

“Millions of Cambodians were slaughtered by Pol Pot.”

“...led to the deaths of more than 20 million Chinese. Many of the victims were children who were eaten by starving peasants.”

This will forever be the face of “Progressive Politics” to me. As Churchill said, “Never forget. Never surrender.” To do so leads to being lined up by a large hole with a small hole put through your head, or worse (those unfortunate children).
28 posted on 11/30/2003 7:44:06 AM PST by NewRomeTacitus (Communism seeping around the baseboards. Caulked it up with "Reaganite".)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
Thanks to all of you for this thread and your ideas. I'm saving this for my homeschool government class.
29 posted on 11/30/2003 7:44:39 AM PST by Red Boots
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To: Bonaparte
Bonaparte -

Your explanation of how private property was treated under fascism is on target. Hitler alowed private ownership and tolerated capitalism provided the private property owner carried out the will of the state. This is the essence of fascism - state control of private property.

Our own country is riddled with fascists in the so-called environmental movement. The use of the endangered species act, smart growth and other state mandated controls over property is the essence fascism. People who support these property thefts under the guise of so-called environmentalism are as culpable as the Germans and Russians who supported fascism and communism.
30 posted on 11/30/2003 8:03:27 AM PST by sergeantdave
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
Good article. But if you compare Stalin to the abortion lobby in America, the soviet butcher does not look so bad. Some estimates put the number at 20 millions executed soviet citizens, but not everyone was innocent; you have to substract from this number the war traitors, spies, murderers, rapists, thieves, criminals. Yes, the death penalty was common in the Soviet Union. I am not defending the comunists, I am just providing some facts.

In America, how many innocent babies have been brutally executed before they could see a ray of sunlight, since 1973 ? They didn´t have a chance to run, to escape. They didn´t see the criminal abortionist.

I imagine that people in the Soviet Union during Stalin era must have known that if they criticized or conspired against the leader they would be persecuted. At least they kney where Stalin stood, the innocent babies don´t know at all why they are being killed.

Stalin could have been a monster, but he was against abortion (some people think that he was anti-abortion to replace the people he executed).

http://www.roevwade.org/
31 posted on 11/30/2003 9:21:27 AM PST by Spartano
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To: Bonaparte
Hey, Boanaparte - nice to see you around. Here's one of my favorite quotes, right form the horse's mouth, so to speak:

"The Party is all-embracing. It rules our lives in all their breadth and depth. We must therefore develop branches of the Party in which the whole of individual life will be reflected. Each activity and each need of the individual will thereby be regulated by the Party as the representative of the general good. There will be no license, no free space, in which the individual belongs to himself. This is Socialism - not such trifles as the private means of production. Of what importance is that if I range men firmly within a discipline they cannot escape? Let them own land or factories as much as they please. The decisive factor is that the State, through the Party, is supreme over them, regardless whether they are owners or workers. All that, you see, is unessential. Our Socialism goes far deeper..."

 

"The people about us are unaware of what is really happening to them. The gaze fascinated at one or two superficialities, such as possessions and income or rank and other outworn conceptions. As long as these are kept intact, they are quite satisfied. But in the meantime, they have entered a new relation; a powerful social force has caught them up. They themselves are changed. What are ownership and income to that? Why need we trouble to socialize banks and factories? We socialize human beings."
Adolph Hitler - Rauschning, The Voice of Destruction pp 191-193

In the end, there was little to differ from the de jure socialism practised by the Soviets and their imitators and the de facto socialism of the Nazis. The former was class-based, the latter, race based. Their outcomes were similar in avery respect - mass murder, enslavement and impoverishment.

32 posted on 11/30/2003 10:04:49 AM PST by Noumenon (I don't have enough guns and ammo to start a war - but I do have enough to finish one.)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
Lenin said if he had to kill 9 out of 10 citizens to maintain communism - then so be it.

All for an ideology that is flawed and useless.
33 posted on 11/30/2003 10:05:15 AM PST by The Raven
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To: Bonaparte
You're making a syllogistic error in stating that because A includes aspects of B it therefore must be the same as B. Communism and fascism have similarities but they are different beasts. Your left=government, right=no-government model is oversimplified. While it fits your immediate ideological needs, it will not be adequate for most serious discussions of political science. No equivocation can prove that Naziism is Communism, or that both are "left wing" in any model except your specific definition. I have already stated that such a definition puts the advocate in danger of defending the potential ills of the American right wing, of which there are just as many as are on the left. No position on any political spectrum can lessen the danger government (or the lack of it) may bring to a society. There is no easy formula such as "stay on the right and you'll always be correct." Even on your spectrum, anarchy is at its extreme right.
34 posted on 11/30/2003 4:49:14 PM PST by risk
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
ping
35 posted on 11/30/2003 4:58:25 PM PST by chmst
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To: Cincinatus' Wife; Bonaparte
They're both bad but the Left tries to make one good.

This is profound. As Horowitz observes, American leftists now denounce Stalinism and Maoism, but fail to recognize the fact that all other forms of communism lead to the same result.

36 posted on 11/30/2003 5:07:14 PM PST by risk
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
a book by written by a comtemporary liberal has a chapter entitled, "J---S was a liberal".

seems that his logic is a bit flawed. HE was not a murderer, a liar, or a thief. So, how could he have been a liberal?
37 posted on 11/30/2003 5:50:28 PM PST by ripley
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
bump
38 posted on 11/30/2003 5:52:40 PM PST by VOA
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To: risk
Fascism and communism are horrifically and historically very different. And the traditional model of communism and fascism wrapping around the spectrum at totalitarian ends is not going to go away because a few political scientists want to simplify it.

Don't you think that it is the ultimate simplification to arbitrarily categorize the Communist and National Socialist ideologies into the "Left" and "Right" categories that have meant different things every 50 years ever since the terms were coined during the French Revolution?

In 1820's Europe, a member of a Masonic Lodge praising the Constitutional form of government was considered a radical Leftist and the United States of America was considered the most Left-wing nation on the Planet.

During the fall of the Soviet Union, the American Liberal media labelled the Soviet Communist die-hards as "Right-wing".

Originally, "Right" wing meant a supporter of absolute monarchy by divine right who denied the very existence of sovereignty deriving from the consent of the governed.

"Left" wing originally meant a supporter of the individual Liberty.

Now, Left vs Right traditionally mean whatever the political writer wants it to mean.

The same America Liberal media that labelled Ronald Reagan as "Right-wing" because he was "Conservative" in wanting to preserve traditional American values and was extremely anti-Communist saw no irony whatsoever in labelling the Soviet die-hards during the fall of the Soviet Union as "Right-wing" because they were "Conservative" in wanting to preserve traditional Communist values.

If you traditionally define "Right" vs "Left" as State Absolutism vs Individual Rights and Liberties, the both Communism and National Socialism are Right-wing ideologies.

The absolute monarchs of the ancien regime may have invoked "By the Grace of God" and used "France/Britain/Spain" as the boggeyman. The Communists may have invoked "For the Benefit of the Proleteriat" and used "the Capitalists and the Fascists" as the boggeyman. The National Socialism may have invoked "For the Fatherland" and used "the Jews, the Communists and the Liberal Democracies" as the boogeyman.

However, those are all merely rationilizations for exactly the same political bottom line: Absolute power by a political oligarchy that is maitained by force of arms.

Same Church. Different pews.

That, of course, makes most of us on Free Republic traditional Left-wingers which is, in the original meanings of the terms, where the United States has always been since someone got the bright idea to label all political ideology through the prism of the seating arrangement of the French Estates General.

39 posted on 11/30/2003 6:31:34 PM PST by Polybius
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To: risk
such a definition puts the advocate in danger of defending the potential ills of the American right wing, of which there are just as many as are on the left.

Uh, really.

No position on any political spectrum can lessen the danger government (or the lack of it) may bring to a society. There is no easy formula such as "stay on the right and you'll always be correct." Even on your spectrum, anarchy is at its extreme right.

The emerging spectrum does not exist to supply answers, only to better categorize different ideologies. The old spectrum, with fascism/Nazism on the extreme right and Communism on the far left was not a spectrum at all, instead a circle that leads to totalitarianism no matter which direction you travel, with the only implied solution being to take the middle ground. That is, of course, absurd, because Centrism is usually an illusion since there is no real neutral ground in political disputes oftentimes.

The new spectrum, with anarchy (complete lack) on the extreme right and totalitarianism (complete presence) on the extreme left is the only logical spectrum for all of the political ideologies possible. Minimalist government, existing for few but important reasons and being viewed as a 'necessary evil' that needs to be kept in check at all times, is closer to the extreme right than to the extreme left. The spectrum only ranks ideologies and does not endorse a 'solution,' mainly because different people disagree about what the exact problems to be solved with government intervention are. Therefore, the spectrum never implies that the solution is on the furthest extreme of either of the wings. Nor does it explain why and in what ways government power is employed (in a theoretical sense of allowment) the further you go to the left; only that it is increasingly employed.

Communism and Fascism, then, may be different beasts, but they are still beasts of the same nature of inclination where the spectrum is concerned.

40 posted on 11/30/2003 6:32:09 PM PST by MitchellC
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To: Polybius
I agree that left and right are different depending on the political milieu. But it doesn't change the historic fact that within the nations we are discussing, left meant communist and right meant Nazi. Both Nazis and communists saw each other as being on the right and the left, and they understood why. Those parties had fundamentally different means to achieve state control, and they knew what the differences were, and outside observers knew what the differences were.

But you're welcome to specify any arbitrary spectrum for the sake of discussion, and as you point out, that's what people have been doing all along.
41 posted on 11/30/2003 7:44:26 PM PST by risk
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To: MitchellC
That is, of course, absurd, because Centrism is usually an illusion since there is no real neutral ground in political disputes oftentimes.

This comment goes to the core of the discussion. In any healthy political body, one can never expect complete unity.

42 posted on 11/30/2003 8:04:13 PM PST by risk
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To: risk
Definitely not, but the spectrum is of ideologies. Compromise will always be part of politics, but is itself not an ideology.
43 posted on 11/30/2003 8:10:28 PM PST by MitchellC
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To: risk
"You're making a syllogistic error in stating that because A includes aspects of B it therefore must be the same as B."
    Totalitarianism denies individual rights and freedoms and concentrates all power in a centralized, dictatorial state.

    Fascism is totalitarian.
    Communism is totalitarian.

    This has nothing to do with "aspects." It goes to the very heart of what both communism and fascism are. Totalitarianism is their shared ground of being. All else is secondary and incidental.

    A cobra and a rattler may have different markings and adornments, but they are both poisonous snakes and they will both kill you. And they don't care if you can tell them apart by their surface features. To classify communism and fascism as "diametrically opposed" is as pointless as a biologist classifying rattlers and cobras as two unrelated species because one has a rattler and the other has a hood.

    The whole purpose of classification is to group closely related entities together in the most meaningful and useful way.

    The political spectrum to which you and most western academics subscribe, and which was conceived and developed by the Soviets in an effort to disassociate themselves from fascists, is not logically consistent or useful. It is a product of the "ideological needs" of the left and, far from facilitating "serious discussion of political science," it is more of a hindrance than a help.

    Where does anarchism fall on your political spectrum?


44 posted on 11/30/2003 10:58:27 PM PST by Bonaparte
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To: Bonaparte
My compliments on your clairty. This debate always comes up. I've never seen it explained as well as you have done here.
45 posted on 11/30/2003 11:54:29 PM PST by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Alter Kaker
Lenin's project resulted not only in unprecedented economic and ecological destruction, but more importantly the greatest system of mass murder ever invented: More than 100 million individuals were killed at the hands of communist regimes. Yet many Western academics continue to deny or downplay the full extent of communist atrocities.
46 posted on 11/30/2003 11:56:33 PM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Noumenon
Excellent citation, Noumenon! This was exactly what the nazis did, and the Germans of that era were propagandized, brainwashed and bullied just as the Russians were. Tyranny is tyranny, pure and simple -- whether it's communist or fascist, chocolate or vanilla.

Man Boils At Zero Degrees Freedom

47 posted on 12/01/2003 12:11:42 AM PST by Bonaparte
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To: Bonaparte
The political spectrum to which you and most western academics subscribe, and which was conceived and developed by the Soviets in an effort to disassociate themselves from fascists, is not logically consistent or useful.

Source, please.

We're not the first to observe that a a political spectrum is often inadequate. Here's an interesting model that seems to capture personal freedom and state control within a system that describes communism and fascism along the same lines as you:


Nolan Chart

48 posted on 12/01/2003 12:30:57 AM PST by risk
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To: risk
"Source, please."
    I already gave you the source in post 23.

One problem with the Nolan chart is that it represents traditional conservatives as being opposed to personal freedom to the same extent as totalitarians are. "Conservatives" are positioned at the same level as the origin of the y-axis (see explanatory text at your linked page). This is grossly inaccurate. George Washington, John Adams and Alexander Hamilton were all traditional conservatives and they did not oppose freedoms of speech, press, association, religion, etc.

Another defect in Nolan's scheme is the positioning of "Libertarian" in the place that should be occupied by "Anarchists." There are different shades of libertarian and even the oft-derided "Peter Pan" libertarians do not go as far as the anarchists do.

49 posted on 12/01/2003 12:58:43 AM PST by Bonaparte
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
Let's not forget the most extraordinary genocide of a nation in history -- PRUSSIA! The remnants of one of the great nation-states in history was annhilated, its inhabitants exiled to the West, and tens of thousands exterminated (AFTER WW2!). Today, Kaliningrad (formerly Konigsburg) is a festering sore in the heart of NATO, and a bastion of hard-line communism and Russophilism. Stalinist imperialism hasn't been completely unwound yet -- it lives on in Kaliningrad and Byelorussia (yet another beneficiary of Stalin's destruction of nations -- of Eastern Poland).

These folks should also not forget that America, too, had its many victims of communism, and I don't just mean the obvious wars of the past (and the wars of the future -- North Korea). How about the thousands of Americans who were MURDERED by Red terrorists in America during the 20th century (with waves of violence peaking in the 1920s and 1970s), or the GIs who ended up in the GULAG and never came back, and the AMERICAN territory that Lenin ordered invaded and seized in the early 1920s -- called Wrangel Island (claims on which President Bush [41] signed away at the very moment of our victory and the Soviet Union's imminent collapse).
50 posted on 12/01/2003 1:16:53 AM PST by CaptIsaacDavis (.)
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