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1-shot killer
Army Times ^ | November 24, 2003 | John G. Roos

Posted on 12/03/2003 3:11:16 AM PST by archy

Edited on 05/07/2004 10:06:23 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

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Armed Forces Journal editorial

RBCD Performance Plus Ammunition, San Antonio, TX

Clay Block on Left: Shot with a 230 gr. Hydroshok 45 ACP.
Clay Block on the Right: Shot with RBCD Performance Plus 90 gr. TFSP 45 ACP.

1 posted on 12/03/2003 3:11:16 AM PST by archy
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To: *bang_list
Ping!
2 posted on 12/03/2003 3:14:48 AM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
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To: archy
But Bulmer insists that tests in ballistic gelatin fail to demonstrate RBCD ammo’s actual performance because the gelatin is chilled to 36 degrees. Their bullets seem to shatter most effectively only when they strike warmer targets, such as live tissue. Bulmer said tests using live animals clearly would show its effects. Despite his appeals for such testing, and the funds set aside by Congress to conduct new tests, the military refuses.

It's time to shoot some goats and lay this question to rest, PETA be damned.

3 posted on 12/03/2003 3:19:50 AM PST by FreedomPoster (this space intentionally blank)
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To: archy
Very interesting.

Thanks for the post.

4 posted on 12/03/2003 3:25:30 AM PST by G.Mason
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To: archy; All
RBCD ammo
5 posted on 12/03/2003 3:29:28 AM PST by G.Mason
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To: archy
Sounds like it violates the Geneva convention re: ammo. It will probably never be approved by the army.
6 posted on 12/03/2003 3:35:58 AM PST by Arkie2
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To: archy
WTF?

Comparing the performance of two pistol rounds to the 5.56 is absurd. The operate on different principles. It's like testing the performance of a car running on hay! They know better than that.
7 posted on 12/03/2003 3:41:22 AM PST by Woahhs
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To: archy
bump
8 posted on 12/03/2003 3:41:47 AM PST by RippleFire
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To: archy
great post. thanks for your sharp eye. hope you are well.
9 posted on 12/03/2003 3:48:32 AM PST by the crow
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To: archy
bump for later
10 posted on 12/03/2003 4:03:22 AM PST by chuknospam
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To: Arkie2
Sounds like it violates the Geneva convention re: ammo. It will probably never be approved by the army.

See following:

Sniper Use of Open-Tip Ammunition


MEMORANDUM FOR COMMANDER, UNITED STATES ARMY SPECIAL OPERATIONS COMMAND SUBJECT: Sniper Use of Open-Tip Ammunition

1. Summary.

This memorandum considers whether United States Army Snipers may employ match-grade, "open-tip" ammunition in combat or other special missions. It concludes that such ammunition does not violate the law of war obligations of the United States, and may be employed in peacetime or wartime missions of the Army.

2. Background.

For more than a decade two bullets have been available for use by the United States Army Marksmanship Unit in match competition in its 7.62mm rifles. The M118 is a 173-grain match grade full metal jacket boat tail, ogival spitzer tip bullet, while the M852 is the Sierra MatchKing 168-grain match grade boat tail, ogival spitzer tip bullet with an open tip. Although the accuracy of the M118 has been reasonably good, though at times erratic, independent bullet comparisons by the Army, Marine Corps, and National Guard marksmanship training units have established unequivocally the superior accuracy of the M852. Army tests noted a 36% improvement in accuracy with the M852 at 300 meters, and a 32% improvement at 600 yds; Marine Corps figures were twenty-eight percent accuracy improvement at 300 m, and 20% at 600yds. The National Guard determined that the M852 provided better bullet groups at 200 and 600 yards under all conditions than did the M118. (citation omitted.)

The 168-grain MatchKing was designed in the late 1950's for 300 m. shooting in international rifle matches. In its competitive debut, it was used by the 1st place winner at the 1959 Pan American Games. In the same caliber but in its various bullet lengths, the MatchKing has set a number of international records. To a range of 600 m., the superiority of the accuracy of the M852 cannot be matched, and led to the decision by U.S. military marksmanship training units to use the M852 in competition.

A 1980 opinion of this office concluded that use of the M852 in match competition would not violate law of war obligations of the United States. (citation omitted) Further tests and actual competition over the past decade have confirmed the superiority of the M852 over the M118 and other match grade bullets. For example, at the national matches held at Camp Perry, OH in 1983, a new Wimbledon record of 2--015 X's was set using the 168-gr. MatchKing. This level of performance lead to the question of whether the M852 could be used by military snipers in peacetime or wartime missions of the Army.

During the period in which this review was conducted, the 180-gr. MatchKing (for which there is no military designation) also was tested with a view to increased accuracy over the M852 at very long ranges. Because two bullet weights were under consideration, the term "MatchKing" will be used hereinafter to refer to the generic design rather than to a bullet of a particular weight. The fundamental question to be addressed by this review is whether an open-tip bullet of MatchKing design may be used in combat.

3. Legal Factors.

The principal provision relating to the legality of weapons is contained in Art. 23e of the Annex to Hague Convention IV Respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land of 18 October 1907, which prohibits the employment of "arms, projectiles, or material of a nature to cause superfluous injury". In some law of war treatises, the term "unnecessary suffering" is used rather than "superfluous injury." The terms are regarded as synonymous. To emphasize this, Art. 35, para. 2 of the 1977 Protocol I Additional to the Geneva Conventions of August 12, 1949, states in part that "It is prohibited to employ weapons [and] projectiles . . . of a nature to cause superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering." Although the U.S. has made the formal decision that for military, political, and humanitarian reasons it will not become a party to Protocol I, U.S. officials have taken the position that the language of Art. 35(2) of Protocol I as quoted is a codification of customary international law, and therefore binding upon all nations.

The terms "unnecessary suffering" and "superfluous injury" have not been formally defined within international law. In determining whether a weapon or projectile causes unnecessary suffering, a balancing test is applied between the force dictated by military necessity to achieve a legitimate objective vis-à-vis suffering that may be considered superfluous to achievement of that intended objective. The test is not easily applied. For this reason, the degree of "superfluous" injury must be clearly disproportionate to the intended objectives for development and employment of the weapon, that is, it must outweigh substantially the military necessity for the weapon system or projectile.

The fact that a weapon causes suffering does not lead to the conclusion that the weapon causes unnecessary suffering, or is illegal per se. Military necessity dictates that weapons of war lead to death, injury, and destruction; the act of combatants killing or wounding enemy combatants in combat is a legitimate act under the law of war. In this regard, there is an incongruity in the law of war in that while it is legally permissible to kill an enemy combatant, incapacitation must not result inevitably in unnecessary suffering. What is prohibited is the design (or modification) and employment of a weapon for the purpose of increasing or causing suffering beyond that required by military necessity. In conducting the balancing test necessary to determine a weapon's legality, the effects of a weapon cannot be viewed in isolation. They must be examined against comparable weapons in use on the modern battlefield, and the military necessity for the weapon or projectile under consideration.

In addition to the basic prohibition on unnecessary suffering contained in Art. 23e of the 1907 Hague IV, one other treaty is germane to this review. The Hague Declaration Concerning Expanding Bullets of 29 July 1899 prohibits the use in international armed conflict:

". . . of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core or is pierced with incisions."

The U.S. is not a party to this treaty, but U.S. officials over the years have taken the position that the armed forces of the U.S. will adhere to its terms to the extent that its application is consistent with the object and purpose of Art. 23e of the Annex to the Hague Convention IV, quoted above.

It is within the context of these two treaties that questions regarding the legality of the employment of the MatchKing "open tip" bullet must be considered.

4. Bullet Description.

As previously described, the MatchKing is a boat tail, ogival spitzer tip bullet with open tip. The "open tip" is a shallow aperture (approximately the diameter of the wire in a standard size straight pin or paper clip) in the nose of the bullet. While sometimes described as a "hollow point," this is a mischaracterization in law of war terms. Generally a "hollow point" bullet is thought of in terms of its ability to expand on impact with soft tissue. Physical examination of the MatchKing "open tip" bullet reveals that its opening is extremely small in comparison to the aperture in comparable hollow point hunting bullets; for example, the 165-grain GameKing is a true hollow point boat tail bullet with an aperture substantially greater than the MatchKing, and skiving (serrations cut into the jacket) to insure expansion. In the MatchKing, the open tip is closed as much as possible to provide better aerodynamics, and contains no skiving. The lead core of the MatchKing bullet is entirely covered by the bullet jacket. While the GameKing bullet is designed to bring the ballistic advantages of a match bullet to long range hunting, the manufacturer expressly recommends against the use of the MatchKing for hunting game of any size because it does not have the expansion characteristics of a hunting bullet.

The purpose of the small, shallow aperture in the MatchKing is to provide a bullet design offering maximum accuracy at very long ranges, rolling the jacket of the bullet around its core from base to tip; standard military bullets and other match bullets roll the jacket around its core from tip to base, leaving an exposed lead core at its base. Design purpose of the MatchKing was not to produce a bullet that would expand or flatten easily on impact with the human body, or otherwise cause wounds greater than those caused by standard military small arms ammunition.

5. MatchKing performance.

Other than its superior long range marksmanship capabilities, the MatchKing was examined with regard to its performance on impact with the human body or in artificial material that approximates human soft tissue. It was determined that the bullet will break up or fragment in some cases at some point following entry into soft tissue. Whether fragmentation occurs will depend upon a myriad of variables, to include range to the target, velocity at the time of impact, degree of yaw of the bullet at the point of impact, or the distance traveled point-first within the body before yaw is induced. The MatchKing has not been designed to yaw intentionally or to break up on impact. These characteristics are common to all military rifle bullets. There was little discernible difference in bullet fragmentation between the MatchKing and other military small arms bullets, with some military ball ammunition of foreign manufacture tending to fragment sooner in human tissue or to a greater degree, resulting in wounds that would be more severe than those caused by the MatchKing. [FNaaa1]

Because of concern over the potential mischaracterization of the M852 as a "hollow point" bullet that might violate the purpose and intent of the 1899 Hague Declaration Concerning Expanding Bullets, some M852 MatchKing bullets were modified to close the aperture. The "closed tip" MatchKing did not measure up to the accuracy of the "open tip" MatchKing.

Other match grade bullets were tested. While some could approach the accuracy standards of the MatchKing in some lots, quality control was uneven, leading to erratic results. No other match grade bullet consistently could meet the accuracy of the open-tip bullet.

6. Law of War Application.

From both a legal and medical standpoint, the lethality or incapacitation effects of a particular small-caliber projectile must be measured against comparable projectiles in service. In the military small arms field, "small caliber" generally includes all rifle projectiles up to and including .60 caliber (15mm). For the purposes of this review, however, comparison will be limited to small-caliber ammunition in the range of 5.45mm to 7.62mm, that is, that currently in use in assault or sniper rifles by the military services of most nations.

Wound ballistic research over the past fifteen years has determined that the prohibition contained in the 1899 Hague Declaration is of minimal to no value, inasmuch as virtually all jacketed military bullets employed since 1899 with pointed ogival spitzer tip shape have a tendency to fragment on impact with soft tissue, harder organs, bone or the clothing and/or equipment worn by the individual soldier.

The pointed ogival spitzer tip, shared by all modern military bullets, reflects the balancing by nations of the criteria of military necessity and unnecessary suffering: its streamlined shape decreases air drag, allowing the bullet to retain velocity better for improved long-range performance; a modern military 7.62mm bullet will lose only about one-third of its muzzle velocity over 500 yards, while the same weight bullet with a round-nose shape will lose more than one-half of its velocity over the same distance. Yet the pointed ogival spitzer tip shape also leads to greater bullet breakup, and potentially greater injury to the soldier by such a bullet vis-à-vis a round-nose full- metal jacketed bullet. (See Dr. M. L. Fackler, "Wounding Patterns for Military Rifle Bullets," International Defense Review, January 1989, pp. 56-64, at 63.)

Weighing the increased performance of the pointed ogival spitzer tip bullet against the increased injury its breakup may bring, the nations of the world-- through almost a century of practice--have concluded that the need for the former outweighs concern for the latter, and does not result in unnecessary suffering as prohibited by the 1899 Hague Declaration Concerning Expanding Bullets or article 23e of the 1907 Hague Convention IV. The 1899 Hague Declaration Concerning Expanding Bullets remains valid for expression of the principle that a nation may not employ a bullet that expands easily on impact for the purpose of unnecessarily aggravating the wound inflicted upon an enemy soldier. Such a bullet also would be prohibited by article 23e of the 1907 Hague IV, however. Another concept fundamental to the law of war is the principle of discrimination, that is, utilization of means or methods that distinguish to the extent possible legitimate targets, such as enemy soldiers, from noncombatants, whether enemy wounded and sick, medical personnel, or innocent civilians. The highly trained military sniper with his special rifle and match grade ammunition epitomizes the principle of discrimination. In combat, most targets are covered or obscured, move unpredictably, and as a consequence are exposed to hostile fire for limited periods of time. When coupled with the level of marksmanship training provided the average soldier and the stress of combat, a soldier's aiming errors are large and hit probability is correspondingly low. While the M16A2 rifle currently used by the United States Army and Marine Corps is capable of acceptable accuracy out to six hundred meters, the probability of an average soldier hitting an enemy soldier at three hundred meters is ten percent.

Statistics from past wars suggest that this probability figure may be optimistic. In Would War II, the United States and its allies expended 25,000 rounds of ammunition to kill a single enemy soldier. In the Korean War, the ammunition expenditure had increased four-fold to 100,000 rounds per soldier; in the Vietnam War, that figure had doubled to 200,000 rounds of ammunition for the death of a single enemy soldier. The risk to noncombatants is apparent.

In contrast, United States Army and Marine Corps snipers in the Vietnam War expended 1.3 rounds of ammunition for each claimed and verified kill, at an average range of six hundred yards, or almost twice the three hundred meters cited above for combat engagements by the average soldier. Some verified kills were at ranges in excess of 1000 yards. This represents discrimination and military efficiency of the highest order, as well as minimization of risk to noncombatants. Utilization of a bullet that increases accuracy, such as the MatchKing, would further diminish the risk to noncombatants.

7. Conclusion.

The purpose of the 7.62mm "open-tip" MatchKing bullet is to provide maximum accuracy at very long range. Like most 5.56mm and 7.62mm military ball bullets, it may fragment upon striking its target, although the probability of its fragmentation is not as great as some military ball bullets currently in use by some nations. Bullet fragmentation is not a design characteristic, however, nor a purpose for use of the MatchKing by United State Army snipers. Wounds caused by MatchKing ammunition are similar to those caused by a fully jacketed military ball bullet, which is legal under the law of war, when compared at the same ranges and under the same conditions. The military necessity for its use-- its ability to offer maximum accuracy at very long ranges--is complemented by the high degree of discriminate fire it offers in the hands of a trained sniper. It not only meets, but exceeds, the law of war obligations of the United States for use in combat.

This opinion has been coordinated with the Department of State, Army General Counsel, and the Offices of the Judge Advocates General of the Navy and Air Force, who concur with its contents and conclusions.

An opinion that reaches the same conclusion has been issued simultaneously for the Navy and Marine Corps by The Judge Advocate General of the Navy.

FNa1. The M118 bullet is loaded into a 7.62mm (caliber .308) cartridge. In its original loading in the earlier .30-06 cartridge, it was the M72.

FNaa1. While this review is written in the context of the M852 Sierra MatchKing 168-grain "open-tip" bullet and a 180-grain version, the MatchKing bullet (and similar bullets of other manufacturers) is also produced in other bullet weights of 7.62mm rifles (.308, .30-06, or .300 Winchester Magnum).

FNaaa1. For example, 7.62mm bullets manufactured to NATO military specifications and used by the Federal Republic of Germany have a substantially greater tendency to fragment in soft tissue than do the U.S. M80 7.62mm ammunition made to the same specifications, the M118, or the M852 MatchKing. None fragment as quickly or easily upon entry into soft tissue as the 5.56mm ammunition manufactured to NATO standards and issued to its forces by the Government of Sweden. Its early fragmentation leads to far more severe wounds than any bullet manufactured to military specifications and utilized by the U.S. military during the past quarter century (whether the M80 7.62mm, the M16A1, M193 or M16A2 5.56mm) or the opentip MatchKing bullet under consideration.



11 posted on 12/03/2003 4:08:20 AM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
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To: archy
He said he feels qualified to assess a bullet’s effects, having trained as a special-operations medic and having shot people with various types of ammo...

I think Saddam better hope there's not too many of these guys in Iraq! Otherwise, please page all remaining heavenly virgins to the reception area...

12 posted on 12/03/2003 4:10:28 AM PST by Heatseeker
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To: FreedomPoster; Leisler
It's time to shoot some goats and lay this question to rest, PETA be damned.

Leisler was a SPECFOR medic back in the 80's and has performed these tests. Let's get a comment from him.

13 posted on 12/03/2003 4:18:11 AM PST by metesky ("Brethren, leave us go amongst them." Rev. Capt. Samuel Johnston Clayton - Ward Bond- The Searchers)
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To: Joe Brower; Squantos; harpseal; Travis McGee; wardaddy; SLB; Shooter 2.5; Jeff Head
Carnivore ping.

14 posted on 12/03/2003 4:19:39 AM PST by AAABEST
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To: Travis McGee; Squantos; harpseal; Jeff Head; SLB; Mulder; El Gato; King Prout
I saw this post and I immediately thought of you guys. $:-)

Please ping all the other good people that I missed!

Leave it to archy to find this kinda stuff!

Click the Gadsden flag for pro-gun resources!

15 posted on 12/03/2003 4:19:52 AM PST by Joe Brower ("If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face, forever." - G. Orwell)
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To: AAABEST
Hey, you're up early! Beat me to the draw.
16 posted on 12/03/2003 4:20:28 AM PST by Joe Brower ("If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face, forever." - G. Orwell)
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To: archy
Interesting. The most interesting part is the estimate of the ammo expended to kill one enemy soldier!
17 posted on 12/03/2003 4:21:00 AM PST by Arkie2
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To: Woahhs
WTF?

Comparing the performance of two pistol rounds to the 5.56 is absurd. The operate on different principles. It's like testing the performance of a car running on hay! They know better than that.

More than that, it sounds like they deliberately tested other than the round in question, possibly after first running tests to find out how they could turn in a negative report. The NIH [N/ot I/nvented H/ere] problem with flawed evaluations being given until the manufacturer wises up and puts a retired ordnance officer on the staff to *streamline* the acceptance process is an old one, and it looks like it's business as usual in that respect.

My own experience with the stuff has been limited; but I've got one pal who's very knowledgable and experienced, and he swears by the RBCD 9mm and 38 Super loadings- enough so that I got all his remaining Winchester SXT and M882 9mm 115-grain ball amnmo, which runs just fine in my old Browning GP.

I'd hardly be surprised if a lightweight bullet gives massive expansion and maximum tissue disruption, I've been down that path since pushing 80-grain Super Vel hollowpoint bullets meant for the .380 autopistol at 1200 and 1500 FPS back in the early 1970s. The question is if hollowpoints so constructed can also stay intact long enough to effect deep wound channels and if the rifle bullets are equally effective. The anectdotal reports are encouraging, and if they offer such a load for the .30 US carbine that offers such results, it'll sell like tasty hotcakes. We shall see.

18 posted on 12/03/2003 4:23:02 AM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
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To: archy
Butt Shot Bump
19 posted on 12/03/2003 4:23:06 AM PST by auboy (I'm out here on the front lines, sleep in peace tonight–American Soldier–Toby Keith, Chuck Cannon)
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To: Joe Brower
Leave it to archy to find this kinda stuff!

Yeah, but it's from 24 November- I should have caught it a LOT sooner. I guess I'll plead Thanksgiving season distraction, but let's hope I catch the next one while it's a little fresher.

-archy-/-

20 posted on 12/03/2003 4:27:15 AM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
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To: auboy
Butt Shot Bump

I swear from here to the Great Pumpkin on High that I was aiming for center of mass....

-archy-/-

21 posted on 12/03/2003 4:28:43 AM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
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To: Joe Brower
Hehe, we both posted at 7:19.

*Twilight Zone music*

22 posted on 12/03/2003 4:29:50 AM PST by AAABEST
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To: Heatseeker
He said he feels qualified to assess a bullet’s effects, having trained as a special-operations medic and having shot people with various types of ammo...

I think Saddam better hope there's not too many of these guys in Iraq! Otherwise, please page all remaining heavenly virgins to the reception area...

With mops and sponges....

-archy-/-

23 posted on 12/03/2003 4:30:17 AM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
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To: archy
Interesting information. Thanks for posting.
24 posted on 12/03/2003 4:30:34 AM PST by PGalt
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To: archy
I think this ammo was featured on a recent edition of "Modern Marvels" on the History Channel, where the topic was (to my delight), "Bullets". This guy was doing a demo on these uncooked fifteen-pound hams with a rifle round -- I think it was .308.

First, IIRC, he fired a standard bullet (dunno if it was FMJ, HP or what) into the first ham from about 10 yards, and it made the standard small entry hole and larger exit hole. Then he shot the second with one of these new rounds, and blew it to shreds.

I remember my initial reaction being, "Holy sh*t!!".

Click the Gadsden flag for pro-gun resources!

25 posted on 12/03/2003 4:33:00 AM PST by Joe Brower ("If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face, forever." - G. Orwell)
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To: AAABEST
Synchronicity, man... synchronicity.
26 posted on 12/03/2003 4:33:50 AM PST by Joe Brower ("If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face, forever." - G. Orwell)
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To: archy
“It entered his butt and completely destroyed everything in the lower left section of his stomach ... everything was torn apart,”

it sucks to be him

27 posted on 12/03/2003 4:45:26 AM PST by Revelation 911
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To: archy
I swear from here to the Great Pumpkin on High that I was aiming for center of mass....

LOL! Humor, like good coffee, is best served early in the day.:-)

28 posted on 12/03/2003 4:55:39 AM PST by auboy (I'm out here on the front lines, sleep in peace tonight–American Soldier–Toby Keith, Chuck Cannon)
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To: metesky
SLA Marshall wrote a report for the Army on infantrymen in Europe. Logistics supplied something in the range of a quarter of a million rounds for each enemy killed. Mind you this was in the semi-auto Springfield days. I would imagine round usage per kill has only gone up. Anyways, the more tailored your round is, the smaller the range of effectiveness is. For example, a Formula 1 car would move you around the land battlefield the quikest, but the majority of the terrain would be out of the question, hence military vehicles are more truck(ish).

As to the wog popped in the butt at short range. Well the bullet would of still been going quite fast, he might of had a full bladder/full lower intestins, hence a lot and dense water thus a great hydro shock effect.

It could of happened with just a regular ball ammo. OR maybe it was the round. Anyways, correlation is not causation.

As to the gel/temp dispute. I suspect that at warmer tempratures the gel would be too soft and not match the averaged behaviour of human muscle/organs. The temp shouldn't effect the behavior of the bullet as the contact time is so small.

2 cents worth.
29 posted on 12/03/2003 4:57:50 AM PST by Leisler (Dean, He's Not Crazy, He Just Looks That Way)
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To: Leisler
>>As to the gel/temp dispute. I suspect that at warmer tempratures the gel would be too soft and not match the averaged behaviour of human muscle/organs. The temp shouldn't effect the behavior of the bullet as the contact time is so small.

As someone with a strong thermodynamics / heat transfer / fluid mechanics background, I agree wholeheartedly with your reasoning and comments here.
30 posted on 12/03/2003 5:07:28 AM PST by FreedomPoster (this space intentionally blank)
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To: Leisler
Thanks, Leisler.
31 posted on 12/03/2003 5:09:28 AM PST by metesky ("Brethren, leave us go amongst them." Rev. Capt. Samuel Johnston Clayton - Ward Bond- The Searchers)
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To: AAABEST
Thanks for the ping. I'll try to get back to this later.

The only comment I have for the moment looks like:

Small entrance hole, BIGGER exit hole.
32 posted on 12/03/2003 5:36:54 AM PST by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: archy
I've seen some of their ammo used ... it's good stuff.

The 454 round they sell is an EXTREMELY hot round

33 posted on 12/03/2003 5:39:07 AM PST by Centurion2000 (Resolve to perform what you ought, perform without fail what you resolve.)
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To: Arkie2
Sounds like it violates the Geneva convention re: ammo.

Sounds CLEARLY like it violates the Geneva Conventions on war.

34 posted on 12/03/2003 5:50:39 AM PST by lepton
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To: archy
So, what they're saying is that the MatchKing is not a Frangible round. That would make the MatchKing legal...but frangible rounds are not.
35 posted on 12/03/2003 5:59:38 AM PST by lepton
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To: archy
There is no magic bullet out there. Unless they contain explosives or poison their potential wounding effects will be governed by their kinetic energy, frontal area and bullet design. Bullets designed to fragment, expand, tumble or penetrate are nothing new. They have all been around for decades.

Every couple of years you hear about some new "super bullet". Some, like the Black Talons, are actually pretty good, but none are ever revolutionary. We've basically known how bullets work for about 100 years now and there's not much you can do to them that hasn't already been done.

36 posted on 12/03/2003 6:02:46 AM PST by elmer fudd
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To: archy
OK, let me make a prediction here. Remember the "Rhino Ammo" hoax a few years back, when an article came out about some fictional new bullet that was even nastier than the much ballyhooed Black Talon round?

Within a few weeks, we will see the Brady Bunch pick up on this and the fact that it's sold to civilians. This will be something else to stir up anti-gun hysteria, create something else to ban, as well as provide another reason to demonize gun shows.

I'd bet money on it. We will see.

37 posted on 12/03/2003 6:26:43 AM PST by Kenton
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To: archy
The truth is that we are attempting to get a quart out of a pint pot. No amount of tinkering with the bullet will improve the 5.56mm.
The effectiveness of the .308-7.62mm is without question, which is why it remains the calibre of the machine gun and
the sniper rifle.
It is going to take a gutsy call by someone in the Pentagon to finally end this boondogle.
38 posted on 12/03/2003 6:42:40 AM PST by ijcr (Age and treachery will always overcome youth and ability.)
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To: lepton
The purpose of Sierra MatchKings are for long range competition. Sierra doesn't even recommend them for hunting.

The design of the MatchKing is a lead cylinder inside a copper jacket that is made as long as possible by weight and the ability of most of them to fit inside the magazine. By keeping the nose of the bullet hollow, they kept the weight down and still offered an extremely long bullet for bearing surface against the rifling. As far as the bullets being hollow points, it isn't even noticeable.

The .223 80 grain cartridges don't even fit inside the magazine. They're designed for the last relay in High Power competition where the cartridge has to be single loaded.
39 posted on 12/03/2003 6:52:31 AM PST by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: archy
bump for later.

L

40 posted on 12/03/2003 6:56:56 AM PST by Lurker (Some people say you shouldn't kick a man when he's down. I say there's no better time to do it.)
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To: archy
Thomas, a security consultant with a private company contracted by the government

Anyone know which PMCs (Private Military Companies, aka mercs) have been awarded contracts in Iraq? I'm guessing MPRI, I'm just wondering if there might be others.
41 posted on 12/03/2003 7:00:04 AM PST by Paladin2b
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To: ijcr
Apples and oranges.

The 5.56 MM family works great at 300 yards or less.

If anything, I think Defense Department has to stop the idea of having only one service rifle. I suggest we have two or even three that would be issued according to the environment our guys have to occupy.
42 posted on 12/03/2003 7:01:16 AM PST by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: archy
Veddy inderestink.

Anyone else find the following line morbidly funny?
He said he feels qualified to assess a bullet?s effects, having trained as a special-operations medic and having shot people with various types of ammo,...

FWIW, "blended" metals would have some radically different expansion rates than regular clad or hollowpoint bullets. Think of it as the differnce between putting your hands together flat, palm to palm, and slidding them. Versus interlocking your fingers and doing the same.

Whether this would be enough to account for the radical expansion noted in the article, I don't know. My guess would be "maybe". It'd definately be different from other regular frangible rounds.

43 posted on 12/03/2003 7:15:29 AM PST by Dead Corpse (For an Evil Super Genius, you aren't too bright are you?)
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To: Shooter 2.5
They used to do that, but it was a Quartermasters nightmare.

They like things nice and simple. If they had their way, every individual weapon would be 5.56.

L

44 posted on 12/03/2003 7:28:11 AM PST by Lurker (Some people say you shouldn't kick a man when he's down. I say there's no better time to do it.)
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To: archy
OK, so what does a box of .45 ACP or .308 cost?

So much cool ammo, so little money. You're killing me here archy....

L

45 posted on 12/03/2003 7:35:26 AM PST by Lurker (Some people say you shouldn't kick a man when he's down. I say there's no better time to do it.)
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To: Joe Brower
This sounds like a Glaser Safety Slug or a Mag-Safe to me. These have been around for a while. I've kept a 357 magnum loaded with Glasers for a long time.
46 posted on 12/03/2003 8:00:14 AM PST by Armedanddangerous (The first rule in a gunfight is to have a gun, more than one, if possible...)
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To: archy
A few years back the Arcane round of a copper beryllium alloy was out and in 9mm it could penetrate threat level IIIA armor while still providing very great tissue disruption. The round is no longer legally importable. Now the question is what is the actual performance of this round? What will it do to a target after going through several layers of Kevlar? It seems to do the job in 5.56mm and from what you say it also has some impressive performance in 9mm. I am wondering about .45acp?

I have not yet had a chance to play with this ammunition yet but I may order some to do my own tests on wet phone books etc. I shall be following this closely.
47 posted on 12/03/2003 8:35:42 AM PST by harpseal (stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: Arkie2
Do we want our guys hit with these rounds? Hell, no.
48 posted on 12/03/2003 8:39:22 AM PST by expatpat
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To: harpseal
Now the question is what is the actual performance of this round? What will it do to a target after going through several layers of Kevlar?

Essentially, it's the very result of having to go through several layers of Kevlar that creates the friction necessary for the bullet to remain intact and penetrate deeply, following which it then seperates in material providing far less resistance. But we have a pretty good idea of what it doies thereafter.


49 posted on 12/03/2003 9:41:37 AM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
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To: archy
Defintely will have to get some of these for CWII. I really like the energy numbers on the .45acp.
50 posted on 12/03/2003 9:44:19 AM PST by harpseal (stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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