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1-shot killer
Army Times ^ | November 24, 2003 | John G. Roos

Posted on 12/03/2003 3:11:16 AM PST by archy

Edited on 05/07/2004 10:06:23 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

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To: harpseal
I have not yet had a chance to play with this ammunition yet but I may order some to do my own tests on wet phone books etc. I shall be following this closely.

Exactly my intention for posting this info, and I look forward very much to hearing of anyof your results, either on wet phone books or any other test giving us any ideas as to how this new development may perform, or in more practical applications, even if those applications are anectdotal and speculative.

Perhaps the most interesting application is in short-barrelled carbines like the M4 and new XM8, in which the standard M193 and M855 5,56mm ammunition, intended for use in the 20-inch barrels of the M16A1 and M16A2 rifles respectively, have understandably not performed as well as desired at the smaller velocities developed therein. I've always preferred the 5,56mm round in a full-length rifle rather than the shorties, but the new ammo could cause me to reevaluate that preference. Of course, the result in an even longer barrelled M16A1/A2 or RPK might be even more spectacular.

-archy-/-

51 posted on 12/03/2003 9:51:58 AM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
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To: elmer fudd
Ya think so huh? LOL.
52 posted on 12/03/2003 10:06:37 AM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Shooter 2.5
New technological developments in body armor and individual
protection, such as kevlar and other light-weight ceramic and composite armor, may soon defeat the penetration capability of the small 5.56mm SS109 projectile.
For example, the new Soviet 5.45 x 39mm ammunition cannot now penetrate a relatively light 5.8 pound flak jacket composed of Kevlar and a 4.8mm (.19 inch)sheet of hardened steel plate, even at point blank range. The .223 SS109 however, with its steel penetrator still has this capability (but only below 6 mtrs about 21 ft).
Personal protection has overtaken the ability of the 5.56mm
to provide an effective round capable of delivering adequate penetration.
There will come a day when our troops will encounter an enemy with body armor...(as did the LAPD in 1997) then apples and oranges will become blood and guts.
Our soldiers deserve the best and the 5.56mm ain't it.
53 posted on 12/03/2003 10:18:48 AM PST by ijcr (Age and treachery will always overcome youth and ability.)
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To: archy
I think I shall try the ammunition on some coyotes out of a short barreled AR15. I shall also try the .45acp on some of these varmints. I will let you know of any results.
54 posted on 12/03/2003 10:33:37 AM PST by harpseal (stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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Comment #55 Removed by Moderator

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To: archy
I swear from here to the Great Pumpkin on High that I was aiming for center of mass....

Heck, that might've *been* center of mass, depending on the position of the target (head down, running for cover). The ol' 5.56mm enema - most unpleasant. Even the SS109 ammo might've performed similarly, if the bullet passed through heavy muscle and maybe glanced off the pelvic bone. Get the bullet tumbling and it'll make a mess, no frangible design needed.

57 posted on 12/03/2003 10:56:02 AM PST by Charles Martel (Liberals are the crab grass in the lawn of life.)
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To: Charles Martel
I swear from here to the Great Pumpkin on High that I was aiming for center of mass....

Heck, that might've *been* center of mass, depending on the position of the target (head down, running for cover). The ol' 5.56mm enema - most unpleasant. Even the SS109 ammo might've performed similarly, if the bullet passed through heavy muscle and maybe glanced off the pelvic bone. Get the bullet tumbling and it'll make a mess, no frangible design needed.

Ah. That, then would be a hit well-described as *Center of a$$*?

A similar hit from a Soviet 5,45mm AK74 round would seem to be equally or even more spectacularly unpleasant.

-archy-/-

58 posted on 12/03/2003 11:40:50 AM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
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To: Pavlovs Dog; stainlessbanner; shuckmaster
"As to the wog popped in the butt at short range"

are you aware that "wog" is a racist term equivilant to ni@#er?

Or so some Wogs claim. Among the British troops of the British Army of the Rhein and the Gurkhas with which I've been acquainted, they've also applied it to Frenchmen, e.g. *Wogs starts at Calais.*

So long as the communist-inspired and professional race-baiters and imps continue to whine about such things while describing the Confederate flag as *an American swastika* I find the term at least as eminently suitable as *Neo-Confederate,* *Neo-conservative* or *Neo-newsboy*.

59 posted on 12/03/2003 11:46:31 AM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
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To: FreedomPoster; Leisler
>>As to the gel/temp dispute. I suspect that at warmer tempratures the gel would be too soft and not match the averaged behaviour of human muscle/organs. The temp shouldn't effect the behavior of the bullet as the contact time is so small.

As someone with a strong thermodynamics / heat transfer / fluid mechanics background, I agree wholeheartedly with your reasoning and comments here.

Agreed, though it should be noted that results with the .30 M1 carbine in the Pacific by Marines and Navy personnel was generally favorable, and was found at least as suitable for such purposes by those of the British Eighth Army's *Desert Rats* recon units who could scrounge a carbine, considered preferable to any 9mm or .45 machinepistol available from the inventory of either side. Likewise the Brits in postwar Malaya and Kenya found the carbine and it's ammo quite okay, as did the French in Indo-China, followed by many US advisors, ROKs and Vietnamese and other US troops there, including Air America flight crews and spooks who could carry anything they liked.

On the other hand, the American paratroopers at the Battle of the Bulge found that the carbine was ineffectual, as did the Marines at the Chosin Reservoir and Pork Chop Hill determined. The effect may be related to heavy winter clothing, the effect of cold weather on the human vascular system or both and other factors, but shouldn't be dismissed- and should be considered carefully in light of similar observations about the M4 carbine's effectiveness in a warm place.

My own backround is more in the internal ballistics field rather than thermodynamics / heat transfer / fluid mechanics or terminal ballistic effect, but it still gives me enough of an interest to observe such factors and resulting arguments with both a sceptical eye and continuing curiousity. And an occasional opportunity to put the resulting theories into practice.

-archy-/-

60 posted on 12/03/2003 12:02:00 PM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
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To: georgebushrocks
the mistake here is that we really do NOT want to kill them. We want to wound them badly so we can take him and one or two of his buds off the battlefield to care for him. So essentially - one 5.56 = 2 or three off the field - get it?

If we kill him that's one... again the goal is to badly wound not kill.

Sometimes. That's essentially the idea behind using a very high velocity but small/light projectile- at a respectable distance, it'll wound to achieve the effect you describe. But should the target choose to engage the shooter from a much closer distance, a hit while the bullet is travelling very fast and at very high rotational speeds will end the dispute quickly.

The alternative view, unfortunately not as convenient for small arms usage as might be desired; XM1028 120mm for M1A1 Abrams smoothbore main gun:


64 posted on 12/03/2003 7:34:08 PM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
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To: georgebushrocks
The black talons were only gruesome in appearance.

Indeed, and the 127 grain +P+ Ranger SXT bullet, product number RA9SXTP, I've lately been using in 9mm [a gift, from a pal who's gone over to 9x23/.38 Super!] in my old Browning actually seem to both feed a little better and expand more consistantly. But in .45, the Remington *Golden Saber* JHPs certainly look fearsome once their petals have bloomed.

Not surprising. Same designer.

I couldn't find a pic of expanded .45s, but the .40 S&W fired slugs are pretty close.


65 posted on 12/03/2003 7:45:35 PM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
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To: Pavlovs Dog
from encarta

wog [ wog ]

noun

. ... .

now, my glib friend, having read those definitions, do you really think you are serving freepers, or conservatisim any justice by using racially inflammatory language for some liberal cretin to quote and then say we're all a bunch of racists? think about it.

The liberal cretins are going to defame and slander us in any event. Accordingly, I don't care what the silly munts think.

Lewis Carroll:

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."

"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - that's all."

-- Through the Looking Glass.

66 posted on 12/03/2003 8:47:02 PM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
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To: archy
The Search for the Perfect Bullet, could make a good short non-fiction book, along the lines of "Cod" and "Salt".

Anyways, if we ever get attacked by something goopy/jelly like "Thing" from a old sci fi movie with a young Steve McQueen, well, we will be all set.
67 posted on 12/04/2003 3:28:52 AM PST by Leisler (Dean, He's Not Crazy, He Just Looks That Way)
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To: Pavlovs Dog
I don't really care. I'll call sweethart if it will take a bullet.

Encarta is a PC dictionary.

It's been decades since I've let liberals decide the construct of language, or any other symbol. I make them play on my court, my game.

Lastly, most liberals don't "think". They feel.

68 posted on 12/04/2003 3:38:08 AM PST by Leisler (Dean, He's Not Crazy, He Just Looks That Way)
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To: Leisler
The Search for the Perfect Bullet, could make a good short non-fiction book, along the lines of "Cod" and "Salt".

Anyways, if we ever get attacked by something goopy/jelly like "Thing" from a old sci fi movie with a young Steve McQueen, well, we will be all set.

Some people sit around and brag on their guns, and discuss various ammo loads. But there are others who are just as happy with their Ohaus scales, AA machines and comparison mikes. They'd no more be caught with their Mityuoto digital calipers than I would without two spare mags for my M1911 or a single one for my Browning GP. I knew one of those who was SO happy when he finally got a freezer big enough to chill his gelatin molds just right, and even bought himself the right model of BB gun so he could *calibrate* his Jell-o [Yeah, I've cast and shot my own gelatin too, though I don't have a freezer. I used one of the file cabinets at the morgue.] He made the mistake of inviting me over to shoot some of his jello blocks, so I took a couple of goodies: A Remington XP-100 in .221 Fireball, my Mauser broomhandle, and a muzzleloading revolver...in this case, a LeMat Navy.

I made an awful mess of his range. But he was as happy as a pig in politics.

-archy-/-

69 posted on 12/04/2003 4:42:04 AM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
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To: archy
The take I heard was that in Egypt during WWI the commander of British troops was taken aback by the disparaging language used towards the local troops and suggested that they be referred to as "Worthy Oriental Gentlemen". Like all good soldiers the Brits reduced it to the acronym, as brevity is the soul of wit.

Denim covered gelatin.... there's a "Clinton goes into a biker bar..." joke there.

70 posted on 12/04/2003 4:49:02 AM PST by Tijeras_Slim (SSDD - Same S#it Different Democrat)
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To: Squantos; Eaker
He hit the man in the buttocks

Check out the Texas Brain Shot thread.

71 posted on 12/04/2003 4:51:53 AM PST by Tijeras_Slim (SSDD - Same S#it Different Democrat)
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To: Tijeras_Slim; Eaker; patton; Travis McGee; glock rocks; humblegunner

Eaker told me his old girlfriend was a fine example of Denim covered Gelatin.............:o)

Stay Safe !

72 posted on 12/04/2003 8:41:04 AM PST by Squantos (Support Mental Health !........or........ I'LL KILL YOU !!!!)
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To: ijcr
The claims for this ammunition were debunked at www.tacticalforums.com in their ballistics effects forum.

You can also read about the 6.8mm round the military intends to adopt in the near future over there.
73 posted on 12/04/2003 8:47:19 AM PST by IGOTMINE (Front sight focus and trigger control will see you through most problems)
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To: Squantos
The web filter at work has deleted your graphic, but I think I know what it was.... :)
74 posted on 12/04/2003 8:48:46 AM PST by Tijeras_Slim (SSDD - Same S#it Different Democrat)
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To: Tijeras_Slim
Man! That is HEINOUS!
75 posted on 12/04/2003 8:51:28 AM PST by IGOTMINE (Front sight focus and trigger control will see you through most problems)
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To: IGOTMINE
Blame Squantos!
76 posted on 12/04/2003 8:52:42 AM PST by Tijeras_Slim (SSDD - Same S#it Different Democrat)
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To: Tijeras_Slim
http://www.homestead.com/deidrababe/tightjeans.html

Heres a link to a scientific test of the push the press to test on denim and gelatin pics I borrowed.

Stay Safe !
77 posted on 12/04/2003 8:55:17 AM PST by Squantos (Support Mental Health !........or........ I'LL KILL YOU !!!!)
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To: Squantos
OMG! I now wish I had a graphics filter.
78 posted on 12/04/2003 9:02:01 AM PST by glock rocks (molon labe)
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To: Tijeras_Slim
The take I heard was that in Egypt during WWI the commander of British troops was taken aback by the disparaging language used towards the local troops and suggested that they be referred to as "Worthy Oriental Gentlemen". Like all good soldiers the Brits reduced it to the acronym, as brevity is the soul of wit.

Just so. I've also heard *Wily Oriental Gents* used as the three words so abbreviated, particularly in reference to past experiences in India or [now] Pakistani territory under British control. I've probably heard it from Nepalese Gurkhas as much as from anyone, who might be expected to take offense upon hearing themselves so referred if they thought it perjorative; but I can't recall such an example in my experience. Bored Gurkhas looking for an excuse for a little dust-up might pretend offense, I suppose, but that hardly seems worth a broad-spectrum condemnation.

Too, I can imagine the domestic use might be harsher in industrial towns of the British Isles facing wholesale Paki immigration as opposed to out in the field with the troops. Of course those who routinely ply their trade with automatic weaponry are often more curiously formal and polite than their less-capable fellows. Heinlein was right: an armed society really is a more polite one.

-archy-/-

79 posted on 12/04/2003 9:06:57 AM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
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To: Squantos; Tijeras_Slim; patton; Travis McGee; glock rocks; humblegunner; archy
I just gave Deidra yer address!!!!
80 posted on 12/04/2003 9:07:39 AM PST by Eaker (When the SHTF, I'll go down with a cross in one hand, and a Glock in the other.)
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To: Tijeras_Slim; Squantos
Blame Squantos!

A good rule of thumb in any event.

-archy-/-

81 posted on 12/04/2003 9:08:14 AM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
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To: Eaker
LMAO !!............:o)

Stay Safe !

82 posted on 12/04/2003 9:25:05 AM PST by Squantos (Support Mental Health !........or........ I'LL KILL YOU !!!!)
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To: archy

Clay Block on Left: Shot with a 230 gr. Hydroshok 45 ACP. Clay Block on the Right: Shot with RBCD Performance Plus 90 gr. TFSP 45 ACP.

Don't you think the velocity difference alone would make the 90 gr more 'lethal' ? RBCD list the 90 gr at 2036 fps/ 828 ftlbs...I don't have the specs handy for the 230 gr Hydroshok but I can't believe it's above 900fps...

83 posted on 12/04/2003 9:32:46 AM PST by in the Arena (Richard Thomas Kastner - KIA - Phuoc Long, South Vietnam - 15 November 1969)
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To: Shooter 2.5
By keeping the nose of the bullet hollow, they kept the weight down

Hey Shooter,

I believe that the reason the SMK has the 'hollow' tip is because of the swaging during the manufacturing process. The copper cylinder is formed around the lead core from the bottom up leaving the opening.

I've shot both the 168 SMK and the 165 Sierra Game King through water jugs and the Game King definitely had more of an 'explosive' reaction. The Game King is for all purposes identical to the Match King except the lead core is exposed at the tip. As far as accuracy, the Game King performs sub MOA as does the SMK...both will go sub 0.5 MOA at 100 yards from the bench.

84 posted on 12/04/2003 9:43:05 AM PST by in the Arena (Richard Thomas Kastner - KIA - Phuoc Long, South Vietnam - 15 November 1969)
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To: archy; TEXASPROUD
Texasproud turned me on to this company about 2 years ago and albeit not having had to use it in self defense I have carried it in my pistols and revolvers. Good company and am pleased with the report. BTW this was 5.56 frangible ammo ??

Stay Safe !

85 posted on 12/04/2003 9:48:10 AM PST by Squantos (Support Mental Health !........or........ I'LL KILL YOU !!!!)
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To: archy
This subject has always interested me.

In a lifetime of shooting I have formed only a few opinions. First of all, high velocity hollow points and other expanding bullets do kill better on medium to small animals.

I have only killed two deer, both with pistols. I have killed maybe 50 feral dogs and almost anything with a high velocity will kill them fast. Same goes for raccoons, possums, wild cats, etc.

Just last week, I killed a coon near the edge of my yard. He was up a large hickory and I normally would have just let him alone but I wanted my 11 month old pup to get a chance to fight a coon. I hit him once with a .22 out of a three inch barrel auto. The coon hit the ground and tried to climb the tree again but expired within a few seconds. The dog didn't get a chance to fight him.

The reason I mention this is that about 30 years ago, I killed a coon with a .45 auto. I hit him three times in the thorax and he still had enough fight to whip my dog for a few minutes. Based on that I would conclude that a .22 is a better killer than a .45 auto. Everyone knows that is not true but to be honest, I am not absolutely certain.

86 posted on 12/04/2003 9:53:04 AM PST by yarddog
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To: Squantos
That was cold. Most of us were rebellious and intemperate in our youth, and deserve a good deal of forgiveness for our past misdeeds. ;-)

Hat-Trick

87 posted on 12/04/2003 10:34:00 AM PST by Hat-Trick (Do you trust a government that does not trust you with guns?)
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To: Hat-Trick
LOL....It's OK.... My bro Eaker and I kick each other in the ass at least once a week.....:o)

Stay Safe !

88 posted on 12/04/2003 10:39:46 AM PST by Squantos (Support Mental Health !........or........ I'LL KILL YOU !!!!)
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To: archy
I don't believe I would insult a Gurkha, I have a liking for the way me head is attached.
89 posted on 12/04/2003 10:40:12 AM PST by Tijeras_Slim (SSDD - Same S#it Different Democrat)
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To: Squantos
My bro Eaker and I kick each other in the ass at least once a week.....:o)

Concussions would explain a lot... :)

90 posted on 12/04/2003 10:42:47 AM PST by Tijeras_Slim (SSDD - Same S#it Different Democrat)
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To: in the Arena
Have to wonder about temporary wound cavity vs permanent wound cavity. If that energy "stays" within the body then I believe you are correct about the 90 grainer being the better of the two. I know of a spec op unit that shoots pigs and goats and then uses them to train their med techs for treatment of gunshot wounds. BBQ and Beer if they fail the test.....

I'll ask or suggest that they "evaluate" this round on a soft skin likeness of human. Maybe even a pic or three and of course ....good eats !

Stay Safe !

91 posted on 12/04/2003 10:47:56 AM PST by Squantos (Support Mental Health !........or........ I'LL KILL YOU !!!!)
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To: Tijeras_Slim
LOL.....Overpressure !
92 posted on 12/04/2003 10:54:55 AM PST by Squantos (Support Mental Health !........or........ I'LL KILL YOU !!!!)
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To: in the Arena; Travis McGee
http://www.lemasltd.com/1Shot/FactorFiction.htm


More good info........Stay Safe !
93 posted on 12/04/2003 10:55:47 AM PST by Squantos (Support Mental Health !........or........ I'LL KILL YOU !!!!)
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To: Squantos
I may have mis-wrote that post...what I tried to imply was that comparing the 230 to the 90 is like apples and oranges when the velocity is so mismatched. I believe the 230 would dump more of it's energy into the target...agreeing with your temporary/permanent analysis...of course, the hardend penetration of the blended metal bullet may be a great benefit.

Thanks for the link in the other post...the pictures of the 10mm SPLP are impressive...I hate to think other than .45ACP but this is something worth researching.


94 posted on 12/04/2003 11:38:24 AM PST by in the Arena (Richard Thomas Kastner - KIA - Phuoc Long, South Vietnam - 15 November 1969)
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To: Squantos
Army "Goat Lab" story. For the final problem the Navy Corpman had to run out and examine "his" goat for wounds. Nothing. Looked for small punctures, signs of poison etc. If he can't find it, he will fail the course. He finally comes back to the cadre, "Sir, that goat is not wounded."

Somebody hits the goat with a flame thrower. "He is now! Burns on 90% of his body. GO!"

(True story told to me by a frog doc.)

95 posted on 12/04/2003 2:16:04 PM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Eaker
Man, that is cold...LOL
96 posted on 12/04/2003 2:42:34 PM PST by patton (I wish we could all look at the evil of abortion with the pure, honest heart of a child.)
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To: Travis McGee
Army "Goat Lab" story. For the final problem the Navy Corpman had to run out and examine "his" goat for wounds. Nothing. Looked for small punctures, signs of poison etc. If he can't find it, he will fail the course. He finally comes back to the cadre, "Sir, that goat is not wounded." Somebody hits the goat with a flame thrower. "He is now! Burns on 90% of his body. GO!"

(True story told to me by a frog doc.)

New Zealand *When I was in Rookies* story:

Gentlemen - Welcome to this lesson on small arms instruction.
"Instruction Sergeant!"
This weapon is the 7.62 millimeter Self loading Rifle.
"Self Loading Rifle Sergeant!"
It has a muzzle velocity of 2,800 feet per second.
"2,800 feet per second Sergeant!"
With a 20 round magazine attached, it weighs 12 pounds.
"12 Pounds Sergeant!"
It is capable of rapid snapshot fire at short range opportunity targets.
"Rapid snapshot fire Sergeant!"
Excellent quick and accurate individual fire at a range of 100 metres.
"100 metres Sergeant!"
Accurate individual aimed shots up to 300 metres.
"300 metres Sergeant!"
Effective section fire at ranges up to 600 metres.
"600 metres Sergeant!"
I used this weapon in Vietnam and it was very bloody deadly.
"Very bloody deadly Sergeant!"
It has the capability to cut through rubber trees.
"Cut through rubber trees Sergeant!"
It can penetrate concrete gentlemen.
"Penetrate concrete Sergeant!"
It shows no mercy to the Viet Cong.
"No mercy Sergeant!"
Now look downrange and observe the tethered goat.
"Downrange and observe Sergeant!"
I will now engage the tethered goat with my SLR...Bang!
"Tethered goat...Oh $h!t Sarge! Yuk!"

Mike Subritzky 1971
BAA No: 92

(© Mike Subritzky - The Flak Jacket Collection

97 posted on 12/04/2003 2:56:27 PM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
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To: Squantos
My Eyes, my eyes!

Yikes, I had to pepper spray myself to save my vision.
98 posted on 12/04/2003 2:58:34 PM PST by MediaMole
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Comment #99 Removed by Moderator

To: Squantos
I'll ask or suggest that they "evaluate" this round on a soft skin likeness of human.

There is a relatively realistic likeness of a human they might use available here that might be suitable for such a project Though you'll have to inquire elsewhere as to how soft the skin is for someone with hands-on experience. Might as well get some use out of it.

I do have a couple of forthcoming possibile opportunities to do some research on live targets myself, in one case on a boar hunt I've been offered a spot on, not far from either the company's Little Rock location or my present whereabouts. My other opportunity would not be on boar, and I'd need ammunition in either the 5.45x39 AK74 cartridge or the older and heavier 7,62x54r, my preference. I doubt I'll have a .223/5,56mm available.

100 posted on 12/04/2003 3:05:53 PM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
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