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12-7 and 9-11
Vote Republican.net ^ | 12-3-03 | Michael P. Tremoglie

Posted on 12/03/2003 7:09:56 AM PST by Hill Street Blues

12-7 and 9-11

by Michael P. Tremoglie

The 1930’s were known as the Red Decade. It was an era when American culture and political thought were becoming increasingly leftist in orientation.

In the words of Eugene Lyons in his book The Red Decade: "Never before --or since-- had all areas of American society been so deeply penetrated by a foreign nation and a foreign ideology. Never before had the country's thinking, official policies, education, art, and moral attitudes been so profoundly affected by the agents, sympathisers and unwitting puppets of a distant dictatorship."

Pearl Harbor changed that orientation.

After Pearl Harbor Americans became more patriotic, more religious, and more democratic after Pearl Harbor. The institutions of American culture were changed. Media, art, music all became more appreciative of American democracy and less appreciative of foreign “utopias.”

For the next two decades, American culture promoted the ideas of democracy, religion, equality, capitalism, and patriotism. The uniformed services were regarded with esteem. Capitalism was enjoyed and revered. The only bastions of leftist culture were in the very influential (albeit small) fields of art, literature, entertainment, journalism, government, and academia. However, unlike the 30’s, leftist philosophy was not the preeminent belief among Americans even though it may have been among some elites.

All that changed in the jungles of Southeast Asia.

Leftist/socialist/communist thought became the major philosophy, the zeitgeist as it were. It was represented sympathetically in movies, theater, television, art, books, and most importantly academia. These institutions promoted ideas that were antithetical to the American ethos. Uniform services were reviled. Capitalism was disdained.

The average American reverted to being skeptical about the American ideal and public opinion was receptive to the communist propaganda. After all, many soldiers in Viet Nam believed it was an “economic war.” Many citizens believed that it was only the “poor and the minorities who were being sent to Viet Nam” - a myth that to this day is being recited by such influential journalists as Chris Mathews and historians like Doris Kearns Goodwin.

We were told that Ho Chi Minh modeled his declaration from the Declaration of Independence. Americans serving in Viet Nam were given the analogy by the media of comparing Viet Nam to our own Revolutionary War. They were made to feel that we were the British and they the redcoats. The Communists were like the American colonists - patriots who only wanted freedom.

These anti-American feelings precipitated a purge of the government institutions like defense and intelligence in the post-Viet Nam era. Public opinion, disillusioned by Viet Nam and Watergate, and fueled by a liberal media, was ripe to begin dismantling intelligence because of the “revelations” of Cointelpro. These revelations of FBI spying on “civil rights” groups and leaders; clergy; and charitable organizations were portrayed by the media as fascism.

9-11 changed all that.

Since then, we have noticed a reverence for the uniform services. A reverence that has not existed since WWII. This reverence has been shared by and, in some instances implemented by, the artistic and literary community. American capitalism and military have a new appreciation as imperfect as they are.

Those in the media or on campus may question whether the flag should be displayed. However, this question would never have been considered before. They would have considered displaying a flag jingoistic.

It is only among some academicians, some government officials and the mainstream media that the anti-American status quo is retained. It is only among them that this transmogrification from loathing of American culture to an appreciation of what America provides them has not occurred.

Yet, this is a positive thing. It is positive because the public needs to know about: professors who proclaim that any group that can destroy the Pentagon is admirable; professors who proclaim that it is America who is responsible for the Taliban; CEO’s of media corporations who proclaim that they cannot issue a condemnation of terrorism because of their objectivity; government officials who prohibit patriotic displays; librarians who unctuously reprimand an employee for furnishing the FBI information about terrorists.

As long as the average American is aware of such anti-American fanaticism these people will be discredited. Ordinary America will now know these liberal elites are not altruists. They do not believe in democracy. They are demagogues. They are totalitarians. They are aristocrats.

The liberals are becoming increasingly marginalized as more is known about them. As ordinary Americans are learning about who is operating their cultural institutions and as they learn that they have not been told the truth, those institutions will change. As more and more Americans learn that educators do not want the pledge of allegiance recited because it somehow might make some students uncomfortable, Americans might ask themselves - is the prohibition of prayer in school really a constitutional issue or an attempt to bowdlerize religion from the culture? Are the proclamations by civil libertarians opposing military tribunals really a civil liberties issue or just fanaticism?

As more Americans hear and read mainstream media journalists describe as jingoistic Lee Greenwood singing “ I’m proud to be an American, God Bless the USA,” those journalists will be recognized as the as the sanctimonious, supercilious twits they are.

December 7th ended the Red Decade. September 11th will change American culture as well.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: 911; americanism; pearlharbor; terrorism
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1 posted on 12/03/2003 7:09:57 AM PST by Hill Street Blues
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To: Hill Street Blues
The author seems to suggest that nationalism is synonymous with the 'right' and then suggests that somehow the Right won the the post-30s culture war.

That is about as ahistorical as it gets.
2 posted on 12/03/2003 7:13:50 AM PST by JohnGalt (How few were left who had seen the Republic!---Tacitus)
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To: JohnGalt
Sorry, I went to public school. Could you please explain further?
3 posted on 12/03/2003 7:19:13 AM PST by netmilsmom (Happy Recovering Economy Month-Go Shopping!)
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To: JohnGalt
Those are both problems since the Left in America has not always been so consistently anti-American as it has since the 60's and the Right lost the culture war and only since 9-11-2001 has begun to join the battle.

Forty years and more of a one-sided battle.
4 posted on 12/03/2003 7:20:15 AM PST by Maelstrom (To prevent misinterpretation or abuse of the Constitution:The Bill of Rights limits government power)
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To: netmilsmom
I can add a little more, sure, and note, I did not put in my customary links, but I would be happy to provide further info on any point if I can.

The author claims that the 1930s were the Red Decade and that somehow things magically changed when Pearl Harbor was bombed, at which point, the author suggest using patriotic and the right interchangeably, came back into fashion.

That is ahistorical.

The Right of the 40s and through the mid-50s viewed Pearl Harbor as an act of Deceit by FDR whose administration was filled with Stalinists (Reds in the authors parlance) in an effort to get Japan to attack the United States rather than invade the Soviet Union from the West through Siberia.

The Hollywood of the 1940s was riddled with Communist sympathizers (useful idiots) who happily went to work for Uncle Joe in propagandizing the war effort. Even Frank Capra was investigated by Hoover's FBI for Communist themes in the very popular 'Its A Wonderful Life.' All that really happened was that the goal of the Communists changed and coincided with that of the Democratic party.

I mean, half of Europe was given to Stalin after the efforts of a Communist spy, Alger Hiss, advised the President to do so. The secrets of the bomb were handed over to the Stalinists by the very people hired by the US taxpayers to build it.

After the war, the Right was sold-out in 1948 and forced to back in current parlance, a RINO, Dewey, who supported the socialist New Deal programs. Truman then launched a half-hearted war in Korea where he hamstrung the General MacArthur in fighting to a conclusion.

In 1952, a very anti-New Deal, anti-war, anti-defect, anti-Big Government candidate of the Right Taft was sold out by the Wall Street RINOs for Ike. Ike did take on an anti-Communist Nixon as the VP, but Nixon was not actually a conservative, but simply an anti-Communist who leaned to the Right. Ike did a fairly good job for 8 years of course, but he instated no reforms and when he left office he warned against the "Military Industrial Complex" in his farewell address.

For the next 20 years, the Warren court and leftists in Hollywood attacked every social standard from the West in a search of the egalitarian ideal.

The Republicans and the culture sold out the ancient English custom and concept of Property Rights with the 1963 Civil Rights bill and then pretended to be surprised that it quotas and Nixon's implementation of Affirmative Action caused so much anger. The Warren Court destroyed the last vestiges of the Republic's judicial system with Miranda and the Roe V Wade case that still haunts us.

There was a brief respite in 1980, but Reagan had to take on the RINO of his time, George Bush as a VP, and when Reagan was elected he started appointing Ford and Nixon hold overs rather than the outside "radicals" that got him there. Then the assassination attempt from the son of a George Bush for President contributor---but that is another story.

Reagan did a great job in fixing the welfare state, rebuilding a military that was completely obsolete and lowering taxes for a couple of years until he went back on that in 1983 and raised taxes, but he also had no effect on reducing the size of government. Still, he brought down the Soviet Union with nary a shot and should be remembered in the pantheon of great world leaders and great Americans.

9/11 was the end result of a trillion dollar centralized intelligence agency that could no longer function, like the Old Soviet Union. Rather than dismantle the system and look to solve the problem internally (armed passengers, tighter borders, and firings/pension strippings of government hacks) the central government set off to slay a foreign monster that may or may not have had anything to do with 9/11 and debt financed the whole thing, similar to LBJ's reign.

Meanwhile, gays can now marry, and doctors will have to kill the baby while still in the uterus rather than in the birth canal-- and conservatives call it a victory.
5 posted on 12/03/2003 7:41:40 AM PST by JohnGalt (How few were left who had seen the Republic!---Tacitus)
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To: Hill Street Blues
read later
6 posted on 12/03/2003 7:48:02 AM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: Maelstrom
Out in "Fly-Over Country" we've been fighting a rear guard action in the "War Against Rural America" since the early 1990s. We knew it would take awhile for the people in the dense population areas to take notice that there's a war going on. We've been outgunned and outspent by the eco-fascists and their sock pocket media.

The attack on religion, brainwashing in the schools, leftist judges writing law, theft of property via regulation - it's all tied in. Glad the rest of America has finally noticed.

Welcome to the war.
7 posted on 12/03/2003 7:55:26 AM PST by sergeantdave
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To: JohnGalt
Good post.
8 posted on 12/03/2003 7:55:53 AM PST by Protagoras (Putting government in charge of morality is like putting pedophiles in charge of children)
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To: Protagoras
TY.

I also forgot to add that 2/3rds of the WWII military was drafted compared to only 40% for Viet Nam. One could easily make the case that by the author's judgment the '60s were more, by the authors definition of patriotism, 'patriotic' i.e. loyal to the DC tax regime, than the 40s.

Hence my critique.
9 posted on 12/03/2003 8:03:30 AM PST by JohnGalt (How few were left who had seen the Republic!---Tacitus)
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To: sergeantdave
Jesus Almighty

You're the last bastion, not a rear guard action that nobody's noticed!
10 posted on 12/03/2003 8:08:20 AM PST by Maelstrom (To prevent misinterpretation or abuse of the Constitution:The Bill of Rights limits government power)
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To: Hill Street Blues
After Pearl Harbor Americans became more patriotic, more religious, and more democratic after Pearl Harbor. The institutions of American culture were changed. Media, art, music all became more appreciative of American democracy and less appreciative of foreign “utopias.”

I think the author is overreaching here in his attempt to connect 12-7 to 9-11.
We didn't drop the idea of 'utopias' until the war was over.  Uncle Joe was still our ally, after all.  We didn't become steeply anticommunist until the fifties.
11 posted on 12/03/2003 8:10:55 AM PST by gcruse (http://gcruse.typepad.com/)
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To: netmilsmom
When you study 19th Century Radical Thought the concept of Progressive or Liberal thought, (Left), is associated with nationalistic aspirations. Progressives wished to do away with the monarchies and looked to the American Revolution as the mechanism to accomplish this change.

That's why it is odd to equate the Right with Nationalism!

12 posted on 12/03/2003 8:20:13 AM PST by Young Werther
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To: Young Werther
Is the term nationalism, like fascism, so widely used and misused that it doesn't mean anything in the vernacular?

"My country right or wrong" strikes me as nationalism and is a mantra of the right.
13 posted on 12/03/2003 8:24:47 AM PST by gcruse (http://gcruse.typepad.com/)
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To: Hill Street Blues
The liberals are becoming increasingly marginalized as more is known about them.

Yes.....Thanks to the Fox News, talk radio, internet..... AXIS OF TRUTH!

As ordinary Americans are learning about who is operating their cultural institutions and as they learn that they have not been told the truth, those institutions will change.

Ohhh....Ohhh...I smell another HISSY FIT, coming soon to an election near us.

14 posted on 12/03/2003 8:26:16 AM PST by wayoverontheright
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To: gcruse
It's more of an aesthetics' issue.

Patriotism, love of the land of our fathers, has always been considered a positive trait in Western culture.

Nationalism, a rather arbitrary love of political borders, has always been considered lower and often leads to dangerous outcomes.

For example, the nationalist believes his country is always right, where as a patriot tends to believe in his country, right or wrong, which suggests that his country is capable of being wrong.

As an aside, nice catch with the comment on Utopia's but take it a step further. The War on Drugs, the War on Poverty, the War on Terrorism are all utopian ends that can never actually end.
15 posted on 12/03/2003 8:27:46 AM PST by JohnGalt (How few were left who had seen the Republic!---Tacitus)
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To: sergeantdave; Jeff Head; SierraWasp; farmfriend
Amen Brother Dave! The Watermelon EcoJihadists have been rurally cleansing farmers, ranchers and land owners in the west for the fish for two decades. Finally things are turning around some. We haven't won the war, but the rest of America is starting to see what we have seen for two decades. I'm reposting your timely and on target remarks:

Out in "Fly-Over Country" we've been fighting a rear guard action in the "War Against Rural America" since the early 1990s. We knew it would take awhile for the people in the dense population areas to take notice that there's a war going on. We've been outgunned and outspent by the eco-fascists and their sock pocket media.

The attack on religion, brainwashing in the schools, leftist judges writing law, theft of property via regulation - it's all tied in. Glad the rest of America has finally noticed.

16 posted on 12/03/2003 8:30:59 AM PST by Grampa Dave (Sore@US, the Evil Daddy War bucks, has owned the Demonic Rats for decades!)
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To: JohnGalt
The "War On" syndrome is, agreed, a utopian tool of the times.
We can't win, we can't break even, and we can't get out of the game.
17 posted on 12/03/2003 8:40:43 AM PST by gcruse (http://gcruse.typepad.com/)
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To: JustPiper; freeperfromnj; flutters; Dog; Sabertooth; Cindy; yonif; StillProud2BeFree; ...
Good read ping
18 posted on 12/03/2003 8:45:49 AM PST by Calpernia (Innocence seldom utters outraged shrieks. Guilt does.)
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To: Shermy
Come by and read this one.
19 posted on 12/03/2003 8:47:00 AM PST by Calpernia (Innocence seldom utters outraged shrieks. Guilt does.)
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To: JohnGalt
Galt your comments about the article bespeak a lack of knowledge of history. Your specious all or nothing proposition is quite apparent as well.

Perhaps you missed his comments about the 1930's. In the context of an era in which the United States of America was indeed very close to becoming a communist country - any communist who may have been in government post-Pearl Harbor was of relatively minor concern. In the 1930's the WHOLE government was almost communist.

Do you really think that all communist influence would be expurgated in a few short years ????

And indeed considering what was done - quite appropriately to communists in the post WWII era - how can you even suggest there was no change? This is absurd.
Was there a HUAC investigating communists in the 1930's as there was in post WWII?

Tremoglie then suggests that Viet Nam changed this patriotic anti-communist fervor. It did. Communist ideology and conspiracy theories were much more palatable because of Viet Nam. Read David Horowitz.

You are making specious arguments born of a misreading of the material.

20 posted on 12/03/2003 8:54:28 AM PST by Hill Street Blues
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To: Hill Street Blues
The unfinished project: http://www.nsa.gov/docs/venona/
21 posted on 12/03/2003 8:55:02 AM PST by Calpernia (Innocence seldom utters outraged shrieks. Guilt does.)
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To: Calpernia
(Innocence seldom utters outraged shrieks. Guilt does.)

"The Jews of the Warsaw ghetto staged a revolt before they could be put on the trains."

Tsk tsk.  Wonder what they were guilty of.
22 posted on 12/03/2003 9:02:48 AM PST by gcruse (http://gcruse.typepad.com/)
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To: gcruse
I think you took my tag out of context
23 posted on 12/03/2003 9:04:44 AM PST by Calpernia (Innocence seldom utters outraged shrieks. Guilt does.)
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To: Hill Street Blues
FDR gave Stalin half of Europe thanks to Communists working by his side, and you call it a "minor concern?"

LOL

Suggesting a lack of knowledge of history after this laughable ideological screed that attempted to call nationalism, rightwing, and anti-patriotism, leftwing, is rather weak. I suggest the approach of historical reasoning.

I am one to believe that FDR government the country more as a fascist than a Red, but the two are essentially the same.

We still live under the same socialist/Red/fascist institutions directed from the DC tax regime since the 1930s only now, so called conservative Republicans defend them. That is a wholesale sell out to the left that progressively gets worse every year.

Most of the Communists in the FDR and Truman Administrations escaped detection and a few Hollywood screen writers had to write under pseudo names-- wow, what a punishment. Yes, the Rosenbergs got the death penalty but that was a minor catch in a sea of Red traitors. FDR, rather than a villain to history, has been declared not only a hero but the neoconservatives are trying to make him a conservative hero as well.

Interesting points about Communist thought, though wrong conclusion. It was the importation of ex-Communists Irving Kristol and James Burnham into Rightwing circles that represent as much as anything the conservative movement in this country.

The only tolerable debate allowed now ranges between two brands of Marxists, neocons on the right, and advanced victimologist on the left. He is attempting to call the complete loss of the Right a victory by changing the definition of what it means to be on the Right-- and sadly, he used Progessive/liberal logic to do so thus making it an ironic article at that.

24 posted on 12/03/2003 9:11:05 AM PST by JohnGalt (How few were left who had seen the Republic!---Tacitus)
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To: Calpernia
Uhm, I quoted the entire tag. What context is there beyond that?
25 posted on 12/03/2003 9:11:53 AM PST by gcruse (http://gcruse.typepad.com/)
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To: JohnGalt
Meanwhile, gays can now marry, and doctors will have to kill the baby while still in the uterus rather than in the birth canal-- and conservatives call it a victory.

Which is worse, gays and women allowed a choice or the fiscal collapse which the U.S. is rushing towards (with just as much republican responsibility as democrat)?

Seems to me that the impact on us is far greater with a fiscal collapse (if you doubt a collapse, just look at the numbers - social security, medicare, national debt, economic demographics, projected entitlements, etc.).

A nation's strength (and therefore its security) is ultimately founded in its economy - with a fiscal collapse, we are in much greater peril than with social controversy and moral fluctuation.

26 posted on 12/03/2003 9:29:57 AM PST by Semper
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To: Semper
Good point.

A country already $22 trillion in debt, launches a debt financed war to build a welfare state in Iraq with the promise of Victory in the War on Terror, at the same moment it gives free drugs to the Greatest Looting Generation, that patriotic cabal from the 40s.

And yet the author still claims that victory for the right, is just around the corner.

Good post.
27 posted on 12/03/2003 9:45:25 AM PST by JohnGalt (How few were left who had seen the Republic!---Tacitus)
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To: Calpernia
Great read. Thanks for the ping!
28 posted on 12/03/2003 10:00:00 AM PST by flutters (God Bless The USA)
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To: JohnGalt
Yes and if the 1930's mentality continued it would have been all of Europe and North America too.

Your extemist thinking and, as I said, your all or nothing fallacy is what discredits you. The John Birch Society is a home for people like you. However, the JBS will not be a factor in this country and neither will your dogmatism.

The author is quite correct about what he wrote. America was changed dramatically by both events and in both instances they prevented the continuation of a trend that people like you could not prevent because nobody listens to the negativity and dogma you espouse.
29 posted on 12/03/2003 10:25:40 AM PST by Hill Street Blues
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To: gcruse
glad you mentioned the Warsaw ghetto. I went to school with a girl whose dad was one of the heroes of Warsaw. He managed to escaped ended up in Singapore and got married. Good man, still tough when I knew him.
30 posted on 12/03/2003 10:29:54 AM PST by LauraJean (Fukai please pass the squid sauce)
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To: Hill Street Blues
That is the part that makes no sense.

The mentality did continue and took over both the 'Left' and 'Right' in this country.

I am not a JBSer, though I wish them all the best, just an Old Right Conservative Libertarian.

If by 'dogma' you mean American conservativism, then lots of laughs, Trotsky.

Yes, I concede the Reds won the culture war, but we are still well armed.

"America was changed dramatically by both events and in both instances "

America was pushed further towards the abyss with each event, thanks to a discredited and incompetent central tax-regime, that much is true. Its only response has been "More warfare and more welfare," financed and paid for with the labor and blood of the young.

Your last line is correct, that is why we call you sheep.

31 posted on 12/03/2003 10:32:21 AM PST by JohnGalt (And I'm saying that men can live together without butchering one another. -Josey Wales)
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To: LauraJean
Yes, attributing guilt to those protesting their innocence is one of the strangest taglines I've seen on FR. I hope its owner drops it.
32 posted on 12/03/2003 10:34:05 AM PST by gcruse (http://gcruse.typepad.com/)
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To: gcruse
Applying the words of my tag to a situation it wasn't intended for = context

33 posted on 12/03/2003 10:34:09 AM PST by Calpernia (Innocence seldom utters outraged shrieks. Guilt does.)
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To: Calpernia
Not being a mind reader, one is challenged to avoid situations you had not intended. Attributing guilt to protests of innocence is unsavory.
34 posted on 12/03/2003 10:38:42 AM PST by gcruse (http://gcruse.typepad.com/)
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To: Calpernia
You're a victim of public schooling.

Context concerns the placement of words or sentences as they work together.

For example:

"If I were a Liberal, I would consider all manner of socialism acceptable."

OUT OF CONTEXT: "I would consider all manner of socialism acceptable."

No such context exists for your tag-line.

Context is NOT about *intention* but only and solely about MEANING.

This bit of education is provided free of charge because you are a Freeper. Next time charges will accrue so be prepared with your PayPal account and credit card.

35 posted on 12/03/2003 10:42:23 AM PST by Maelstrom (To prevent misinterpretation or abuse of the Constitution:The Bill of Rights limits government power)
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To: gcruse
Experience had taught me that innocence seldom utters outraged shrieks. Guilt does. Innocence is a mighty shield, and the man or woman covered by it, is much more likely to answer calmly: “My life is blameless. Look into it, if you like, for you will find nothing.” That is the tone of innocence. by Whittaker Chambers

I am sorry you can't read minds nor have any insight.

36 posted on 12/03/2003 10:43:36 AM PST by Calpernia (Innocence seldom utters outraged shrieks. Guilt does.)
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To: Maelstrom
I may be a victim of public school, (bows head shamefully since it was transparent), but I read books by great people (none of which were required reading in my, *coughs*, public school).
37 posted on 12/03/2003 10:45:41 AM PST by Calpernia (Innocence seldom utters outraged shrieks. Guilt does.)
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To: Calpernia
“My life is blameless. Look into it, if you like, for you will find nothing.”

Yes, then blithely board the trains to Nazi relocation.  My example was
germane.  Your tagline is cynical and wrong.
38 posted on 12/03/2003 10:49:36 AM PST by gcruse (http://gcruse.typepad.com/)
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To: gcruse
Then don't read it.
39 posted on 12/03/2003 10:50:43 AM PST by Calpernia (Innocence seldom utters outraged shrieks. Guilt does.)
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To: Calpernia
I hope you are wrongfully accused of something serious someday. Your reaction would be interesting to behold.
40 posted on 12/03/2003 10:52:06 AM PST by gcruse (http://gcruse.typepad.com/)
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To: gcruse
I have been. And I stand by my tagline and by Whittaker Chambers. I kindly ask you to go troll someone else now.
41 posted on 12/03/2003 10:53:55 AM PST by Calpernia (Innocence seldom utters outraged shrieks. Guilt does.)
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To: Calpernia
Given this post and the post prior to this, your tag line was not used out of context.

I am sorry for your experiences, get out of the city. The outrage of the innocent against the ever growing evil of Liberalism is not subtle.

The outrage of the innocent is the only way you can separate rugged individuals from people who act as so much chattle.

The Warsaw Ghetto is the perfect example that should disabuse you of the notion presented in your tagline.

Choose instead a positive liberty affirming tagline. New Hampshire has one: GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH!

From Thomas Paine's speech.
42 posted on 12/03/2003 10:54:09 AM PST by Maelstrom (To prevent misinterpretation or abuse of the Constitution:The Bill of Rights limits government power)
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To: Calpernia
You were wrongfully accused and did NOT shriek in outrage?

You merely suffered the punishment as though guilty?

Color me skeptical.
43 posted on 12/03/2003 10:55:15 AM PST by Maelstrom (To prevent misinterpretation or abuse of the Constitution:The Bill of Rights limits government power)
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To: Maelstrom
I didn't add my tagline for the post. It is a standing tagline. I like my tagline. It quotes a great author.

Good day to you too.
44 posted on 12/03/2003 10:56:25 AM PST by Calpernia (Innocence seldom utters outraged shrieks. Guilt does.)
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To: Maelstrom
If one is not guilty, there are ways to prove yourself without shrieking and without running. Mountains don't bow to the wind.

45 posted on 12/03/2003 10:57:59 AM PST by Calpernia (Innocence seldom utters outraged shrieks. Guilt does.)
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Comment #46 Removed by Moderator

To: Calpernia
Mountains don't bow to the wind.

You are quite wrong.  The wind wears mountains down to nothing.
47 posted on 12/03/2003 11:01:09 AM PST by gcruse (http://gcruse.typepad.com/)
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To: Maelstrom

48 posted on 12/03/2003 11:02:52 AM PST by Calpernia (Innocence seldom utters outraged shrieks. Guilt does.)
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To: gcruse
Guess I overlooked this flat earth of ours.
49 posted on 12/03/2003 11:05:58 AM PST by Calpernia (Innocence seldom utters outraged shrieks. Guilt does.)
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To: RJCogburn; Scenic Sounds; tpaine
Clean up on aisle four.
50 posted on 12/03/2003 11:06:50 AM PST by gcruse (http://gcruse.typepad.com/)
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