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Fossils Bridge Gap in African Mammal Evolution
Reuters to My Yahoo! ^ | Wed Dec 3, 2003 | Patricia Reaney

Posted on 12/03/2003 4:53:26 PM PST by Pharmboy

LONDON (Reuters) - Fossils discovered in Ethiopia's highlands are a missing piece in the puzzle of how African mammals evolved, a team of international scientists said on Wednesday.

Little is known about what happened to mammals between 24 million to 32 million years ago, when Africa and Arabia were still joined together in a single continent.

But the remains of ancestors of modern-day elephants and other animals, unearthed by the team of U.S. and Ethiopian scientists 27 million years on, provide some answers.

"We show that some of these very primitive forms continue to live through the missing years, and then during that period as well, some new forms evolved -- these would be the ancestors of modern elephants," said Dr John Kappelman, who headed the team.

The find included several types of proboscideans, distant relatives of elephants, and fossils from the arsinoithere, a rhinoceros-like creature that had two huge bony horns on its snout and was about 7 feet high at the shoulder.

"It continues to amaze me that we don't have more from this interval of time. We are talking about an enormous continent," said Kappelman, who is based at the University of Texas at Austin.

Scientists had thought arsinoithere had disappeared much earlier but the discovery showed it managed to survive through the missing years. The fossils from the new species found in Ethiopia are the largest, and at 27 million years old, the youngest discovered so far.

"If this animal was still alive today it would be the central attraction at the zoo," Tab Rasmussen, a paleontologist at Washington University in St Louis, Missouri who worked on the project, said in a statement.

Many of the major fossil finds in Ethiopia are from the Rift Valley. But Kappelman and colleagues in the United States and at Ethiopia's National Science Foundation (news - web sites) and Addis Ababa University concentrated on a different area in the northwestern part of the country.

Using high-resolution satellite images to scour a remote area where others had not looked before, his team found the remains in sedimentary rocks about 6,600 feet above sea level.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: africa; archaeology; crevolist; evolution; ggg; godsgravesglyphs; history; links; mammals; multiregionalism; neandertal
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"If this animal was still alive today it would be the central attraction at the zoo," Tab Rasmussen, a paleontologist at Washington University in St Louis, Missouri who worked on the project, said in a statement.

I'll bet...

1 posted on 12/03/2003 4:53:27 PM PST by Pharmboy
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To: PatrickHenry
PING
2 posted on 12/03/2003 4:54:56 PM PST by Pharmboy (Dems lie 'cause they have to...)
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To: Pharmboy
"It continues to amaze me that we don't have more from this interval of time. We are talking about an enormous continent." said Kappelman...."

This should give some clues, about all those missing "links", but oh well, guess they will have wait til they meet up with old Darwin to find the answers.
3 posted on 12/03/2003 5:01:35 PM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: Just mythoughts
I suppose years later we'll hear this was fraud like a lot of other 'missing link fossils'.
4 posted on 12/03/2003 5:02:50 PM PST by cyborg (mutt-american)
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To: cyborg
I suppose years later we'll hear this was fraud like a lot of other 'missing link fossils'.

Ooooooookay...there was the Piltdown Hoax, and then there was...your turn! Name another...

5 posted on 12/03/2003 5:05:30 PM PST by Pharmboy (Dems lie 'cause they have to...)
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To: *crevo_list; VadeRetro; jennyp; Junior; longshadow; RadioAstronomer; Scully; LogicWings; ...
PING. [This ping list is for the evolution side of evolution threads, and sometimes for other science topics. FReepmail me to be added or dropped.]
6 posted on 12/03/2003 5:07:18 PM PST by PatrickHenry (Hic amor, haec patria est.)
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To: Just mythoughts
How many fossilized bones have you found in your own backyard?

Animals have been living and dying in your yard for millions of years. However, most of them rot and disintegrate instead of becoming a fossil.

Using your backyard, and it's total lack of fossils, would you conclude that there was no life in your region until you arrived?

Would you be correct in your conclusion?

7 posted on 12/03/2003 5:07:24 PM PST by Hunble
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To: Pharmboy
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/fossils.asp

lists some more there. I absolutely do not believe my existence is pure accident and that I came from ooze.
8 posted on 12/03/2003 5:09:09 PM PST by cyborg (mutt-american)
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To: cyborg
Their description of connecting relatives was not set in concrete. Their language always contains "outs" in case of some new discovery.

Must have been in "science" class that bjclinton came up with "depends on the meaning of "is" is.

9 posted on 12/03/2003 5:10:31 PM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: cyborg
I absolutely do not believe my existence is pure accident and that I came from ooze.

Ok, you came from dirt!

10 posted on 12/03/2003 5:10:50 PM PST by Hunble
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11 posted on 12/03/2003 5:11:16 PM PST by diotima
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To: Hunble
As long as I'm not related to Bubbles the Chimp.
12 posted on 12/03/2003 5:11:54 PM PST by cyborg (mutt-american)
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To: All
Might as well give an interesting link:
15 Answers to Creationist Nonsense. From Scientific American
13 posted on 12/03/2003 5:14:55 PM PST by PatrickHenry (Hic amor, haec patria est.)
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To: cyborg
No problem, only a Creationist will tell you that you came from a Chimp. Scientists know better.
14 posted on 12/03/2003 5:15:38 PM PST by Hunble
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To: cyborg
While some REAL fossils have been misinterpreted as missing links, they aren't "frauds." The Piltdown was a fraud, the others were not.

As far as YOU coming from "ooze," no YOU didn't: you came from mom and dad. But going back a few billion years, I guess you could call it ooze.

You're making it personal and emotional; as a nurse you should know better than that--science tries to be as objective as possible (though it surely does not always succeed).

Best to you and yours,

PB

15 posted on 12/03/2003 5:16:49 PM PST by Pharmboy (Dems lie 'cause they have to...)
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To: Hunble
I have on my monitor a rock about 6 inches X 4 inches and about 2 inches thick. It is filled with fossils. I found it along a river bank about 3 hours from my home.

I have been to Glen Rose, Texas, and put my feet into the HUGE footprints made "ages" ago when the dinosaurs age ended.

I believe the evidence when I see it, and there are no "skeletal remains" of transitioning "apes" to "humans", no matter who claims it is what happened.
16 posted on 12/03/2003 5:17:03 PM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: Just mythoughts
... there are no "skeletal remains" of transitioning "apes" to "humans", no matter who claims it is what happened.

Human Ancestors
Comparison of all skulls,
Arguments we think creationists should NOT use from Answers in Genesis.

17 posted on 12/03/2003 5:22:14 PM PST by PatrickHenry (Hic amor, haec patria est.)
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To: Just mythoughts
Once again, only a Creationist will tell you that there should be a steady transition between "apes" and "humans."

Scientists know better.

18 posted on 12/03/2003 5:22:54 PM PST by Hunble
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To: Pharmboy
Who is making it emotional?I see no reason to believe in evolution. I believe in creation. I believe in God and that God created me.
19 posted on 12/03/2003 5:22:56 PM PST by cyborg (mutt-american)
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To: cyborg
I absolutely do not believe my existence is pure accident and that I came from ooze.

That's emotional...you're saying that you are too important or too whatever to have arisen without God. That is not reason, it's emotion. Faith is emotion, not reason.

20 posted on 12/03/2003 5:27:14 PM PST by Pharmboy (Dems lie 'cause they have to...)
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To: Pharmboy
Wow thinking that I am above animals, that God created human beings is emotional?? I happen to think that I AM more important than a slug. Evolution is only a theory, and I don't subscribe to it.
21 posted on 12/03/2003 5:30:07 PM PST by cyborg (mutt-american)
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To: cyborg
Like you, I also believe that God created me and all other forms of life. Science simply tries to explore and understand how it was done.

To deny the factual evidence that science explores, is denying God also. God created that evidence and spiritual people should pay attention to what is being reveled.

22 posted on 12/03/2003 5:31:18 PM PST by Hunble
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To: Hunble
Scientific exploration is fine. However, the study of evolution is dominated by people who do not believe a person can be scientific and even believe in God at all.
23 posted on 12/03/2003 5:38:11 PM PST by cyborg (mutt-american)
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To: cyborg
Not subscibing to evolution necessitates a tremendous amount of denial of evidence; and, although I am not a believer, there are many people who DO belive in BOTH God and evolution.
24 posted on 12/03/2003 5:38:49 PM PST by Pharmboy (Dems lie 'cause they have to...)
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To: Hunble
Until the day a full "skeletal remains" are dug up, then scienctists don't have anything but what they dream up.

Interesting how many discoveries have been made and yet these supposed intellectuals, hold fast to the very thing that removes their credibility.
25 posted on 12/03/2003 5:48:16 PM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: Pharmboy
Oh well... I will have to respectfully disagree.
26 posted on 12/03/2003 5:49:01 PM PST by cyborg (mutt-american)
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To: cyborg
Wasn't there a deliberate fossil hoax on the part of the ChiComms--something to do with Archaeopteryx?--saw it in the Geographic a while back.
27 posted on 12/03/2003 5:53:48 PM PST by Leonine
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To: Leonine
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4229news3-2-2000.asp
Yes. More on that story here.
28 posted on 12/03/2003 5:56:44 PM PST by cyborg (mutt-american)
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To: cyborg
Thanks, cyborg. Another hoax was an embryology scandal in about 1966 claiming that the coccyx was a vestigial tail, not an anchor for musculature.
29 posted on 12/03/2003 6:02:56 PM PST by Leonine
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To: cyborg
Oh, and don't forget about the inclusion of the flawed Miller experiment in 1970s textbooks--and then there's ...
30 posted on 12/03/2003 6:09:15 PM PST by Leonine
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To: PatrickHenry
"Arguments we think creationists should not use from Answers in Genesis".

Genesis does not tell us when this "earth" or heavens were created. Genesis is the "beginning" of a "the man" Adam created in a flesh body, his generations and those whom he and his generations came into contact. "The Adam, fell and through he and Eve would come Christ. We are told that these things happened as an ensample (example) for our admonition, (warning) upon whom the ends of the world (flesh age) are come.

As a matter of fact no where is it written exactly when "IN THE BEGINNING" started. So I do not fit in with the "common" belief of "creationists". We are given an idea as to when "man" was created in a "flesh" body, but that by no means is the "BEGINNING".



31 posted on 12/03/2003 6:10:41 PM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: Leonine
I agree
32 posted on 12/03/2003 6:10:52 PM PST by cyborg (mutt-american)
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To: Leonine; cyborg
Don't forget to mention the the original "comparative embryology" frauds published by Ernst Haekel, which were expose as such back in the late 19th century.
33 posted on 12/03/2003 6:21:03 PM PST by Agamemnon
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To: Agamemnon
Now why would anyone perpetrate a scientific fraud?
A) The perpetrator has overwhelming faith in a pet theory and feels an urgency to proselytize by deception.
B) The perpetrator is incompetent and desires peer respect.
C) The perpetrator is not a scientist and finds pleasure in hoodwinking those who take themselves too seriously.
D) The perpetrator is afraid of Pascal's wager.
E) All of the above!
34 posted on 12/03/2003 6:35:03 PM PST by Leonine
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To: Leonine
Oh, and don't forget about the inclusion of the flawed Miller experiment in 1970s textbooks--and then there's ...

Ok, I give up. How was the Miller experiment flawed?

It seems to me that many people have been able to reproduce that experiment with identical results. Basic hydrocarbon gases, subjected to an energy source, do produce amino acids.

Are you stated that the Miller experiment was flawed and did not produce amino acids?

If you state something, please be kind enough to explain what the heck you are talking about.

35 posted on 12/03/2003 6:35:51 PM PST by Hunble
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To: Hunble
Read The Case for Faith by Chicago Tribune legal editor Lee Strobel for all the sordid details.
36 posted on 12/03/2003 6:41:12 PM PST by Leonine
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To: Just mythoughts
This should give some clues, about all those missing "links", but oh well, guess they will have wait til they meet up with old Darwin to find the answers.

The article itself says they just found a bunch more "missing links," things that have been turning up regular as clockwork. To the extent you even notice, you say, to never mind that. There's still something called "the missing link" and it's still missing and it's proof that science is a house of cards.

What bothers me isn't just that creationism/ID is wrong. It's wrong-headed. It's anti-knowledge, anti-thinking.

37 posted on 12/03/2003 6:45:04 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: All
Until this thread, I never knew there was so much misinformation out there. Probably a good idea to expose a fraud or two on the other side:
300 Creationist Lies.
38 posted on 12/03/2003 6:46:35 PM PST by PatrickHenry (Hic amor, haec patria est.)
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To: Pharmboy; shaggy eel
The Aarsinoithere was a wonderful creature...though somewhat flatulent (but nobody cared), and extremely delicious to eat, tasting something like a cross between barbecued short-ribs, and a creamsicle.

It evolved into the Gnat, which is presently to be found loose in most zoos (but nobody cares).
39 posted on 12/03/2003 6:47:40 PM PST by PoorMuttly (DO, or DO NOT. There is no TRY - Yoda)
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To: Hunble
You should know better than to try to talk logic to a creationist...
40 posted on 12/03/2003 6:48:47 PM PST by Central Scrutiniser (Which is the most universal human characteristic? Fear or Laziness?)
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To: Leonine
I will ask you once again:

The Miller experiment demonstrated how hydrocarbon gases, when subjected to an energy source, were able to combine and produce Amino acids.

This experiment has been reproduced so many times, and under so many different conditions, it would be difficult to list all of them.

So, what was the flaw in this experiment?

41 posted on 12/03/2003 6:48:55 PM PST by Hunble
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To: PatrickHenry
Until this thread, I never knew there was so much misinformation out there.

One of those "Where to begin?" jobs.

42 posted on 12/03/2003 6:49:14 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: VadeRetro
Think of it as a blessed opportunity to provide some much-needed education.
43 posted on 12/03/2003 6:50:29 PM PST by PatrickHenry (Hic amor, haec patria est.)
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To: Central Scrutiniser
You should know better than to try to talk logic to a creationist...

A) The perpetrator has overwhelming faith in a pet theory and feels an urgency to proselytize by deception. B) The perpetrator is incompetent and desires peer respect. C) The perpetrator is not a scientist and finds pleasure in hoodwinking those who take themselves too seriously. D) The perpetrator is afraid of Pascal's wager. E) All of the above!

I know, but it is always enjoyable watching them follow the above steps.

44 posted on 12/03/2003 6:51:02 PM PST by Hunble
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To: Hunble
Being a Creationist means never having to show any tangible proof, its like being a conspiracy theorist...
45 posted on 12/03/2003 6:52:31 PM PST by Central Scrutiniser (Which is the most universal human characteristic? Fear or Laziness?)
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To: Hunble
Being a Creationist means never having to show any tangible proof, its like being a conspiracy theorist...
46 posted on 12/03/2003 6:52:44 PM PST by Central Scrutiniser (Which is the most universal human characteristic? Fear or Laziness?)
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To: Pharmboy
"We show that some of these very primitive forms continue to live through the missing years, and then during that period as well, some new forms evolved -- these would be the ancestors of modern elephants,"

Say what? Guess they weren't all "missing" if some "continue to live" through these years. And is this saying that some elephant "ancestors" stayed the same, while some were evolving? I'm not current on the latest evolutionary theories, they um, evolve so often...

I did find some links to John Kappelman, and this site he was involved with is very interesting, it has extensive bone comparisons of humans, gorillas, and baboons. Most bones have pretty big differences, but I was shocked at how similar the "proximal pedal phalanx 1" bones of a human and a gorilla were. They are so similar, in fact, that they are photographs of the very same bone, lol! See for yourself (click on "comparitive anatomy" at bottom of the site, then choose "human" and "gorilla" and then the bone):

http://www.eskeletons.org/

The site has not been updated in a couple of years, and I guess no one noticed this error.

47 posted on 12/03/2003 6:53:29 PM PST by Enlightiator
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To: PoorMuttly
And why should anyone care?
48 posted on 12/03/2003 6:56:35 PM PST by Pharmboy (Dems lie 'cause they have to...)
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To: PoorMuttly
...though somewhat flatulent (but nobody cared)

,,, turbocharging had to start somewhere.

49 posted on 12/03/2003 6:57:39 PM PST by shaggy eel
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To: PatrickHenry
Fair enough. On the alleged lack of transitionals.
50 posted on 12/03/2003 6:57:39 PM PST by VadeRetro
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