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Need CCW research material

Posted on 12/04/2003 9:13:26 AM PST by myself6

Could anyone help me gather some research material for my sons english project. It seems that the teacher wants him to do a research project on CCW in wisconsin but has limited his information sources to .EDU .GOV and .MIL for internet, one movie (why a movie? that question is answered later), and one book.

The book is going to be "More guns less crime..."

Any good movies that are PRO CCW?

Are there ANY damn .edu or .gov sites that are PRO CCW and give stats??? I havnt found any.

I generally dont help the boy out with his school projects but the school is being unreasonable ( we all know why ).

Oh... The reason they allowed a movie is because they want the kids to watch bowling for columbine. When I heard that I about flipped.

hope someone can help with this request for resources.

TOPICS: Miscellaneous; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: 2nd; ccw; control; crime; guns; weapons; wisconsin
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To: myself6
get the crime statistics for CCW states vs. non-CCW states off of the the websites and do side by side comparisons.
41 posted on 12/04/2003 11:58:39 AM PST by Space Wrangler
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To: myself6
Movie? "Death Wish" (if they bitch about it being a 'fictional' depiction, challenge then on how that is different than 'Bowling for Columbine'

Another good movie would be the one on the Waco massecre.

For a site with good stats, try the CDC site, . Though they have a rep for carrying water for gun grabbers, their own stats betray them.

You'll find the info about more kids, 0-10 years old, drowning than dying from gunshots.

Seems like they had a study recently about the good of concealed weapons.
42 posted on 12/04/2003 12:10:34 PM PST by TC Rider (The United States Constitution 1791. All Rights Reserved.)
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To: Donaeus; All
Thanks for the info. I will take a look at this book.

Yeah, I normally wouldnt ask for help in searching the web for info, but like you said, the teacher / school intentionally made it a pain in the rear to defend any position contrary to their own.

I did come accross a good link to a pdf though.

"Multiple Victim public shootings, bombings, and right-to-carry concealed handgun laws: contrasting private and public law enforcement" - John R. lott and William M. Landes

Thanks again to ALL freepers who helped out with this. I am going to order that JPFO video tonight I might even drive up to Holy Hill to get it. Kinda cool that they are in Wisconsin, only about an hour away from me.

43 posted on 12/04/2003 12:36:32 PM PST by myself6 (Unionize IT?! "I will stop the motor of the world" - John Galt)
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To: Donaeus
Forgot to mention about that PDF... if you look at the front cover it also states it is available off a .edu site.
44 posted on 12/04/2003 12:39:50 PM PST by myself6 (Unionize IT?! "I will stop the motor of the world" - John Galt)
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To: TheAngryClam

I have an old VHS copy of that show from when I was a kid. I still watch it every now and then.
45 posted on 12/04/2003 12:48:16 PM PST by myself6 (Unionize IT?! "I will stop the motor of the world" - John Galt)
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To: Eaker; ~Kim4VRWC's~
Thank you. It really pays to watch the CCW debates on FR. I was watching the Wisconsin Debate and the claim that CCW holders were much more violent than the non-licensees wasn't corrected by our side. That cost us some important PR. That's why I started to note the links so the next time I could mail some of the rebuttals to the associations.
46 posted on 12/04/2003 12:54:28 PM PST by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: myself6
If I was to pick one book, it'd be Gary Kleck's "Targeting Guns".
47 posted on 12/04/2003 1:19:11 PM PST by jdege
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To: myself6
OF course you should visit

And here is some good stuff.

Send me your email in a private note and I have some word files on other states, like MI OH, TN FL, TX etc.

Ohio draws bead on bill similar to Michigan concealed-gun law

Toledo Blade 01 December 2003 | JAMES DREW

Posted on 12/01/2003 8:14 AM CST by Deadeye Division Ohio draws bead on bill similar to Michigan concealed-gun law

By JAMES DREW BLADE COLUMBUS BUREAU CHIEF COLUMBUS - Since the Michigan law that made it easier for citizens to carry concealed handguns took effect in July, 2001, the number of permit holders has nearly doubled and crime has dropped.

Backers of a bill that would give Ohio a similar law say the result - more armed law-abiding citizens and lower crime - could happen in Ohio if the legislature and Gov. Bob Taft break their impasse.

In 2000, Michigan had an estimated 4,109 crimes per 100,000 residents, the FBI says. The rate in Ohio was 4,041 per 1,000 residents.

According to data for 2002, Michigan’s crime rate declined to 3,874 per 100,000 residents and Ohio’s increased to 4,107.

"For over 40 years, Michigan’s per capita crime rate has exceeded Ohio’s; the new [data] proves all that has changed," said Jim Irvine, chairman of the political action committee for Ohioans for Concealed Carry, Inc.

Ohio is one of five states that do not allow concealed handguns. The others are Illinois, Kansas, Nebraska, and Wisconsin.

In 1998, as legislators prepared to revise Michigan’s 71-year-old concealed-carry law so more citizens could get licenses, attorney James Neal wrote in the Lansing State Journal: "If concealed handguns are allowed to proliferate in Michigan, it will mean more violence, accidents, deaths, and injuries."

Leaders of the gun rights movement in Michigan assert that Mr. Neal and other critics were wrong, but they are reluctant to draw a correlation between more concealed-carry permits and less crime. There are too many variables, they say.

"There’s no way of making any direct connection, but there is no place where there has been any substantial increase in crime all attributable to you and I having more freedom to transport firearms," said Dale Shantz, a resident of Elberta, Mich., who is president of the Michigan Coalition for Responsible Gun Owners.

"It’s one more piece of liberty," added Daniel Bambery, a DeWitt, Mich., attorney who represents the pro-gun group.

Bruce Gelispie, an Akron native who has lived in Michigan for 19 years, said there are several incidents that show how concealed-carry has prevented crimes.

He said last year a friend had left the General Motors plant where he works in Flint about 2:30 a.m. when he reached a blocked train crossing. A man tried to get into his car through a rear passenger door.

Mr. Gelispie said his friend, who has a concealed-carry license, pulled his 45-caliber handgun and pointed it at the man, who ran away.

"My friend then called the police. You always do that, because the person might have gotten your license plate and could call the police and say you might have pulled a gun on them," said Mr. Gelispie, an auto worker who also is a National Rifle Association-trained instructor.

Michigan’s less restrictive concealed-carry law hasn’t created problems, but there is no evidence it has led to a drop in crime, said Jim Kessler, policy director for Americans for Gun Safety, in Washington.

"One of the reasons is so few people actually choose to carry a concealed weapon. In rural areas, very few people are afraid of crime. In urban areas, people are more concerned about crime, but they think carrying a gun will get them into more trouble, will put their lives at risk more, and they’re probably right," Mr. Kessler said.

For 2000, Michigan reported an estimated 52,242 violent crimes in urban areas. The figure in Ohio was 35,112.

Last year, Michigan reported 50,097 violent crimes in urban areas. The figure for Ohio increased to 37,428.

Urban law enforcement officials in Michigan cited closer cooperation among agencies and improved crime-fighting techniques for the decline.

In the rural county of Hillsdale, with a population of about 50,000, Sheriff Stan W. Burchardt said the new concealed-carry law hasn’t had an effect on the low crime rate.

"Where the help might be is in areas where there are car-jackings or people are strong-armed robbed, but that doesn’t happen here," the sheriff said.

Detroit City Councilman Kay Everett said the law has given more business owners a "comfort zone" in Wayne County. But she said the debate pales in importance to efforts to crack down on trafficking of illegal guns in Detroit.

"These gun dealers are allowed to sell weapons on the open market and they get away with selling AK-47s. The federal government is not doing its job," she said.

Michigan has had a law enabling citizens to carry concealed handguns since 1927.

The new law in Michigan which took effect on July 1, 2001, was to address varying standards that county gun boards used to judge applications for licenses.

Before the new law was in place, county gun boards - which consist of the prosecuting attorney, sheriff, and a representative of the state police - had too much power to determine who received a permit that could be used throughout the state, critics said.

Applicants had to be at least age 18 and were required to demonstrate a need to carry a concealed handgun. There was no requirement for training.

In some counties, those without a felony conviction could get a concealed-carry permit. In others, retired law enforcement officers or security guards generally were the only ones to get them, Mr. Bambery said.

"We have 83 counties and we had 83 different standards to receive a permit," he said. In December, 2000, the Michigan legislature approved a bill that says county gun boards "shall issue" permits to applicants who don’t have a criminal record or a history of mental illness. Then-Gov. John Engler signed it into law.

Counting concealed-carry permits with restrictions, Michigan had 51,954 permit holders in 2000.

Nearly 30 months after the revised law took effect, Michigan has 90,369 permit holders, state officials say.

From July 1, 2001, to June 30 of this year, county gun boards have rejected slightly more than 1 percent of the applications for such permits. For example, the Hillsdale County gun board denied only 12 of 509 applications in that period.

The leading reasons for rejected applications in Michigan are county gun board decisions and residents with misdemeanor convictions. Although gun boards have less discretion than before July 1, 2001, they can reject applications by citing "clear and convincing evidence" of civil infractions, crimes, personal protection order or injunctions, police reports, other evidence, or "statements that bear directly on the applicant’s ability to carry a concealed weapon," according to the Monroe County Sheriff’s Department.

From July 1, 2001, to June of this year, about one-tenth of one percent of licenses were revoked, with the leading reason being applicants convicted of a felony or a misdemeanor. Crimes have included a rape, a felony assault, domestic assault, and alcohol-related offenses.

The low rate of applications denied and licenses revoked does not surprise Mr. Bambery, given the requirement that applicants pass background checks.

"The people who are exercising this right are really the people who have never been in trouble and foreseeably probably never will be," he said.

But the entire concealed-carry system relies on background check systems that have flaws, said Mr. Kessler, the policy director for Americans for Gun Safety.

In a 2002 report titled "Broken Records," Americans for Gun Safety said 401 people in Michigan who shouldn’t have been able to buy guns were able to do so despite background checks.

Utah is the only state that checks daily if a concealed-carry permit holder has committed a crime and if so, that person’s permit is revoked, Mr. Kessler said.

"It requires computerizing your records and cross-checking, which a lot of states have not done," he said.

Although county gun board meetings are open to the public, Michigan law exempts information about concealed-carry permits from the state public records law.

That prevents citizens and the press from finding out who applied for a permit and who has them, said Carolynne Jarvis, executive director of the Michigan Partnership to Prevent Gun Violence, a Lansing-based gun-control group.

"There’s no way to determine what the effect of this law is. We’d like to pretend there is, but there isn’t. The whole purpose of the way the law was put together is you couldn’t and it’s not accidental," Ms. Jarvis said.

In Ohio, Governor Taft - who has said for nearly five years he won’t sign a concealed-carry bill into law unless it has adequate background checks, training requirements, and support from law enforcement - surprised legislators recently when he said he would veto any bill that bars the public from knowing who has permits.

Backers of the bill say that cloaking who is carrying handguns is crucial to deterring crime. They also point out that the House version of the bill would require an annual report on the number of licenses issued, renewed, suspended, revoked, and denied - similar to information that the Michigan State Police provide. Mr. Bambery said the Michigan law has worked well, but he said some counties improperly have tried to add conditions.

The Michigan Coalition for Responsible Gun Owners recently sued Kent County, which has required applicants to provide a letter from their physician vouching they aren’t or haven’t been mentally ill.

The additional paperwork is unnecessary because applicants must sign a statement allowing county gun boards to access their medical records, the group charges.

Mr. Bambery, who described himself as a libertarian, said his criteria for evaluating the new law is a simple one.

"It’s how many citizens have decided they are going to exercise their rights to a concealed-carry permit. It has been a fairly significant number, but it has not been the rush that the critics were forecasting," he said.

Mr. Bambery is among those who don’t have a permit.

"I live in a small town. I have pistols and enjoy shooting them, and I took the concealed-carry training. But it’s not my thing," he said.

Last month, two men drove up to 22-year-old Johnny Donaldson, Jr., as he beat a 16-year-old girl with a metal pipe on the west side of Detroit, police said.

The man in the passenger seat shot and killed Mr. Donaldson and sped away. No arrests have been made and there is no evidence that the gunman had a concealed-carry permit.

But John Birch, president of a group in Oak Brook, Ill., that supports such laws and other gun issues, said he hopes the gunman does have a permit and will step forward.

"Stopping an in-progress felony is good citizenship. I think the fear level has been transferred from the victims to the criminals," Mr. Birch said.

48 posted on 12/04/2003 1:24:34 PM PST by CHICAGOFARMER (Citizen Carry)
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To: myself6
Alan Korwin and Georgean Lockwood have put out books for some states, but I don't know about WI. These books give all the gun laws in the particular state that the book covers. They have one general volume called Gun Laws of America.

They list the following website:, or email:

49 posted on 12/04/2003 2:08:36 PM PST by basil (basil)
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To: myself6; Joe Brower
Suggest you contact:

Wisconsin Concealed Carry Association

3263 S. 45th St
Milwaukee, WI 53219




50 posted on 12/04/2003 4:07:21 PM PST by PhilDragoo (Hitlery: das Butch von Buchenvald)
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To: TheAngryClam
"For the movie, nothing beats Red Dawn."

Absolutely! A couple of years ago...well about five, before the principal at my then new school really knew he had a pro-gun conservative in his liberal playground, I snuck this one in to my American History class as a "WHAT IF" critical thinking exercise.

All the freeper advice here is golden, I can't imagine adding anything to it, except to echo what Travis McGee said about raising Holy you-know-what about BOWLING FOR COLOMBINE, and demand equal time or a lawsuit for the JPFO movie.

Trust me, nothing scares a school board more than the threat of legal action, especially over something small like a movie. At the very least, the board will deny the school the right to show Moore's garbage, which is almost as good.

51 posted on 12/04/2003 6:14:18 PM PST by ExSoldier (When the going gets tough, the tough go cyclic.)
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To: PhilDragoo
Since you are restricted to the three types of websites, I suggest you visit this one:
It contains a vast wealth of information and is well referenced. You might also try some of the State sponsored websites such as the one the State of Texas runs with complete statistics on the CCW population.

Good Luck
52 posted on 12/04/2003 7:06:11 PM PST by TLI2 (you slug em, we plug em)
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To: myself6; Joe Brower
Thanks for the ping, Joe.

I did some research the other day based on some stats from the Texas site, and came up with the following.

In the year 2000, the adult population of Texas was roughly 15 million people

The number of Texans with CCW permits in 2003 is roughly 236,000, according to the Texas Department of public safety

This equates to about 1.57% of the adult population of Texas having CCW permits. This knowledge can be correlated with crime statistics compiled by the Texas DPS to determine the crime rates of CCW holders, compared those without CCW permits.

Based on the data for 2001, the following observations can be made:

If everyone else was as law-abiding as CCW holders in Texas, there would be a 67% reduction in crime. Or put another way, a non-CCW holder was 3 times as likely to commit a crime as a CCW holder

Murder would be reduced by 60%.
Kidnapping would be reduced by 100%
Sexual assault would be reduced by 58%
Robbery would be reduced by 100%
Aggravated assault would be reduced by 52%
Assault would be reduced by 80%
Burglary would be reduced by 99%

‘Firearms’ crimes would also be reduced as follows:

Deadly conduct involving the discharge of a firearm would be reduced by 38%
Making a firearm accessible to a child, that results in death or injury would be reduced by 100%

Of particular interest is the fact that out of over 200,000 permit holder, there were zero kidnappings or robberies, and zero instances of CCW holder negligently leaving a firearm around such that a child was injured.

53 posted on 12/04/2003 8:25:43 PM PST by Mulder (Fight the future)
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