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Need CCW research material

Posted on 12/04/2003 9:13:26 AM PST by myself6

Could anyone help me gather some research material for my sons english project. It seems that the teacher wants him to do a research project on CCW in wisconsin but has limited his information sources to .EDU .GOV and .MIL for internet, one movie (why a movie? that question is answered later), and one book.

The book is going to be "More guns less crime..."

Any good movies that are PRO CCW?

Are there ANY damn .edu or .gov sites that are PRO CCW and give stats??? I havnt found any.

I generally dont help the boy out with his school projects but the school is being unreasonable ( we all know why ).

Oh... The reason they allowed a movie is because they want the kids to watch bowling for columbine. When I heard that I about flipped.

hope someone can help with this request for resources.


TOPICS: Miscellaneous; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: 2nd; ccw; control; crime; guns; weapons; wisconsin
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1 posted on 12/04/2003 9:13:27 AM PST by myself6
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To: myself6
All the best information on the web about CCW issues is at

www.packing.org

2 posted on 12/04/2003 9:22:15 AM PST by 68skylark
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To: Joe Brower
ping
3 posted on 12/04/2003 9:28:32 AM PST by stainlessbanner
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To: myself6
use the search within here on FR. There is a plethora of information and also further links for information.
4 posted on 12/04/2003 9:31:08 AM PST by Maigrey (Journalists don't do math! That's why they are jouralists.)
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To: myself6
Slightly out of date, but this is the content of a letter I sent to my WI state rep a couple of years ago:

Wisconsin State Representative John La Fave 23rd Assembly District

Dear John,

I enjoyed our meeting as well as our discussion regarding AB-675. Thank you for your reply letter. Below are excerpts of your letter (in italic) dated January 15th, 2002, with my responses.

The bill, sponsored by state Rep. Scott Gunderson (R-Town of Norway), would allow people age 21 or over to obtain a concealed carry permit if they agreed to state and federal background checks, took a training course and met other requirements. It is estimated that a five-year permit would cost $75.

The price of liberty is now, apparently, eternal vigilance, plus an invasion of my privacy (assumption of innocence being a lost concept), plus training, plus $75.

It was recently and successfully argued before a Hamilton County Ohio judge (Case No.: A0004340) that Ohio’s statutes regulating concealed carry were unconstitutional, as they violated Article 1, section 4 of the Ohio state constitution, which states, "The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security..." – verbiage not unlike Wisconsin’s "The people have the right to keep and bear arms for security, defense..."

Last week’s hearing drew more than 100 people, most of them backers of the bill. The opponents, including groups that represent the state’s police chiefs and prosecutors, said that there is no compelling need for a concealed carry law and that more hidden weapons would make work more dangerous for peace officers.

As deep as my respect is for police officers, they are under no legal obligation to protect me, or even respond to my calls for help (South v. Maryland, 59 U.S. 396 (1856), and Bowers v. DeVito, 686 F.2d 616 (1982)). We are all, therefore, solely responsible for our own self defense (United States v. Panter, 688 F.2d 268, 271 (5th Cir. 1982), and United States v. Gomez, 81 F.3d 846, 850 (9th Cir. 1996)).

Professor John Lott, who analyzed FBI crime statistics for all 3,054 American counties from 1977 to 1994, reported, "No [CCW] permit holders have ever shot at, let alone killed, a police officer; instead, permit holders have on occasion saved the lives of police officers who were being attacked by criminals."

A check of the Million Mom March’s collection of articles on crimes committed by CCW holders listed only three police officers being injured by gunshot wounds delivered by a single CCW holder ("Suspect No Stranger to Guns, Explosives"; Hartford Courant, September 4, 1998). All three officers survived. Of note is that the CCW holder was a former police officer.

And a survey released by the National Association of Chiefs of Police (NACOP) asked 23,113 chiefs and sheriffs around the country, "Do you agree that a national concealed handgun permit would reduce rates of violent crime as recent studies in some states already reflected?" According to the NACOP, 62 percent of those surveyed said "yes." (“Top Cops Favor Concealed Carry Laws”, CNSNews, November 30, 2001)

"This is just common sense that if everyone is walking around with a gun in their pocket, there is going to be more shootings," state Attorney General Jim Doyle said in an interview.

A quick check of other states’ CCW statistics reveals the percentage of Wisconsin’s population that can be expected to be issued a CCW permit should AB-675 ultimately pass into law; Washington: 4.98%, Connecticut: 3.54%, Indiana: 3.99%, Pennsylvania: 3.02%, and Florida: 1.6%. Single digits is a far cry from "everyone", as Mr. Doyle mistakenly believes.

Mr. Doyle may also want to re-consider his concept of common sense, given that England outlawed handguns in 1997, yet during this last year London’s crime statistics show muggings involving a firearm have risen by 53 percent, murders with a gun jumped by 90 percent, and robberies have increased more than 100% over the previous year ("Shooting For Mobile Phone Shocks Britain As Gun Crime Spirals", Associated Press, January 9th, 2002). England has only managed to disarm potential victims.

Doyle was incredulous at an attempt to repeal a ban on concealed weapons that has been in place since about 1870. "It’s amazing that in the year 2000, we’re fixing to move the clock back not a few years but 130 years," he said.

Thirty-two states are now “shall issue”, and eleven are "may issue". Vermont requires no permit whatsoever, and coincidentally has the fourth lowest violent crime rate in the country (FBI Uniform Crime Report - 1999), behind three other states, all of which are shall-issue. Wisconsin is one of only six holdouts, which does not afford its law-abiding citizens the right to carry concealed. Mr. Doyle should consider that of the many states which have passed CCW legislation, none of them have re-considered. The trend is towards more states with concealed carry freedoms, not less.

But he [Doyle] called the concealed carry bill "extreme" and said he finds it "very difficult to believe that this would pass."

If Mr. Doyle considers the language of Wisconsin’s Constitution, which guarantees the right to keep and bear arms, and the legislation necessary to allow Wisconsin’s law-abiding residents to practice this right, "extreme," then it is unfortunate - for him.

Not to stray off the subject, but speaking of “extreme”, I’ve unfortunately been made aware of some of the finer points of Mr. Doyle’s anti-terrorist legislation (SB363), which would turn millions of otherwise law abiding Wisconsin residents into instant felons merely for possessing ammunition. That, in my view, is “extreme.”

The most recent Wisconsin poll on the subject...

Excuse me, but my civil rights are not subject to the results of a poll. Thank heavens no one took a poll when Rosa Parks was thinking of sitting in the front of a Montgomery bus. And like Rosa Parks, I am not asking for any rights not already set forth in our state and federal Constitution – rights that are being abrogated through the misuse and misapplication of ‘Disorderly Conduct’ ordinances and statutes (“Regulation of firearms in Wisconsin,” Wisconsin Legislative Reference Bureau, September 2000, Brief 00-01).

However, in 1998 a referendum was placed on the November ballot, which asked: “Shall the state Constitution be amended to declare that the people have the right to keep and bear arms for security, defense, hunting, recreation or any other lawful purpose?”

The result: Yes - 1,205,873 (74%), No - 425,052 (26%) (Wisconsin Blue Book 2001-2002).

In light of the "overwhelming" results of that referendum, it is unconscionable that law-abiding Wisconsin residents are still being prevented from exercising this constitutionally guaranteed right, either through open carry or concealed. This bill, AB-675, begs to be approved.

I look forward to your reply.

Sincerely,

5 posted on 12/04/2003 9:48:34 AM PST by Monitor (Gun control isn't about guns; it's about control.)
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To: myself6
The book is going to be "More guns less crime..."

Not that I disagree with Lott, or his book, but liberals have convinced themselves that Lott's work has been "debunked."

Look into using one of Gary Kleck's books instead.

6 posted on 12/04/2003 9:56:28 AM PST by Monitor (Gun control isn't about guns; it's about control.)
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To: myself6
Not a .gov site, but it is a government site:

http://www.legis.state.wi.us/senate/sen23/news/ppa1.htm

7 posted on 12/04/2003 9:58:57 AM PST by Monitor (Gun control isn't about guns; it's about control.)
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To: AAABEST; wku man; SLB; Travis McGee; Squantos; harpseal; Shooter 2.5; The Old Hoosier; xrp; ...
Rallying the troops. Can anyone help this fellow out?

Click the Gadsden flag for pro-gun resources!

8 posted on 12/04/2003 10:02:19 AM PST by Joe Brower ("If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face, forever." - G. Orwell)
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To: myself6
I'm sure there's lots of random stuff on .edu domains, like this interview with John Lott on Univ. of Chicago's site http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/493636.html And a whole bunch of stuff here http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/gunlaw.htm

Go to Google Advanced search, type in a search word or phrase like "RKBA" or "second amendment" or "concealed carry" in the "Exact Phrase" box, and then in the "Domain" section, choose "Only" and type "edu" in the box -- all the results you'll get are .edu sites. Do the same for .gov and .mil, but I think .edu will get the best results.
9 posted on 12/04/2003 10:03:06 AM PST by GovernmentShrinker
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To: myself6
This has some dynamite statistical data, if you dig into it:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm

FBI uniform crime reports, if he wishes to compare before/after violent crime stats in, say, Michigan, or another state which recently adopted CCW:

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm

10 posted on 12/04/2003 10:04:18 AM PST by Monitor (Gun control isn't about guns; it's about control.)
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To: myself6
I think you should raise a major stink re the showing of Bowling for Columbine. Tell them they must either skip it, or also show Innocents Betrayed (the new JPFO video), or you'll sue.
11 posted on 12/04/2003 10:05:15 AM PST by GovernmentShrinker
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To: myself6
Crime and Justice in the United States and in England and Wales, 1981-96

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cjusew96h.pdf

12 posted on 12/04/2003 10:06:05 AM PST by Monitor (Gun control isn't about guns; it's about control.)
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To: myself6
The Militia, defined:

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/10/311.html

13 posted on 12/04/2003 10:06:47 AM PST by Monitor (Gun control isn't about guns; it's about control.)
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To: GovernmentShrinker
Tell them they must either skip it, or also show Innocents Betrayed (the new JPFO video), or you'll sue.

Good idea! JPFO will gladly provide a copy!

14 posted on 12/04/2003 10:07:05 AM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: myself6
http://www.mousetrap.net/~mouse/guns/chl.html


Lots of good links on this page at bottom.........Stay Safe !
15 posted on 12/04/2003 10:07:21 AM PST by Squantos (Support Mental Health !........or........ I'LL KILL YOU !!!!)
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To: myself6
If you are looking for a "quasi" historical movie, my recommendation would be The Patriot with Mel Gibson. Has nothing to do with Crime, unless you (rightfully) consider what the British Officer did, criminal.

Most Movies I've seen, deal with ownership of guns to be a hedge against a Tyrannical Government (as well they should be).
16 posted on 12/04/2003 10:11:53 AM PST by Leatherneck_MT (Those who do not accept peaceful change make a violent bloody revolution inevitable.)
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To: 68skylark; stainlessbanner; Maigrey; Monitor; Joe Brower; GovernmentShrinker; Travis McGee; ...
Thanks guys...

My son and I will be looking into ALL these resources.
17 posted on 12/04/2003 10:21:43 AM PST by myself6 (Unionize IT?! "I will stop the motor of the world" - John Galt)
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To: Joe Brower; myself6
I use to stay on top of collecting links to various articles from FR.. These may point you to the right direction.. (I think some of the links are no longer available)

2nd amendment, gun control and firearm legislation

I also recommend trying to find 2nd amendment related legislation, bills etc., then try to find arguments the legislators use both for and against.

You might consider searching the anti-second amendment websites because they will alert you to great legislation they are against. :) (million moms, the brady bunch etc)

18 posted on 12/04/2003 10:21:49 AM PST by Freedom2specul8 (Please pray for our troops.... http://anyservicemember.navy.mil/)
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To: Squantos
Cool link! Thanks..
19 posted on 12/04/2003 10:22:44 AM PST by Freedom2specul8 (Please pray for our troops.... http://anyservicemember.navy.mil/)
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To: Joe Brower; myself6
Testimony of Darrell Scott before the House Judiciary Committee; Subcommittee on Crime

Your laws ignore our deepest needs,
Your words are empty air.
You've stripped away our heritage.
You've outlawed simple prayer.
Now gunshots fill our classrooms.
And precious children die.
You seek for answers everywhere.
And ask the question "WHY"?
You regulate restrictive laws.
Through legislative creed.
Add yet you fail to understand.
That God is what we need!


http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a375738093971.htm
20 posted on 12/04/2003 10:24:52 AM PST by Freedom2specul8 (Please pray for our troops.... http://anyservicemember.navy.mil/)
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To: GovernmentShrinker
I just showed "Innocents Betrayed" last night to about 30 people. This group is pro gun and pretty well educated, but this movie presented info that they didn't even know.

I highly recommend this movie to everyone - pro and anti gun alike. It will strengthen the resolve of the 'pros' and if they have any gray matter at all, just may wake up some of the antis.
21 posted on 12/04/2003 10:29:32 AM PST by Badray (Molon Labe!)
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To: Joe Brower; myself6
whoops, that link no longer works..as I said..some of the fr links and articles are just no longer available. Bummer

But I did find this as an alternative..it's his entire testimony...

"TESTIMONY OF DARRELL SCOTT, FATHER OF TWO VICTIMS OF COLUMBINE HIGH SCHOOL SHOOTING, BEFORE THE HOUSE SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME FOR THE HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE, UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, THURSDAY, MAY 27,1999, 2:00 P.M. 2141 RAYBURN HOUSE OFFICE BLDG"

http://www.care-nurse.com/columbine/scott.html

22 posted on 12/04/2003 10:30:20 AM PST by Freedom2specul8 (Please pray for our troops.... http://anyservicemember.navy.mil/)
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To: Joe Brower
Give a holler to CATO!
23 posted on 12/04/2003 10:33:02 AM PST by neverdem (Say a prayer, identify your enemies, then either expose or annihilate them.)
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To: Joe Brower
Be Well ~ Be Armed ~ Be Safe ~ Molon Labe!
24 posted on 12/04/2003 10:36:05 AM PST by blackie
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To: myself6
One of the anti reps tried to say that Texas CCW holders were convicted at a much higher rate than other citizens. The Texas Department of Public Safety was so enraged by those comments they had to include the real statistics on their webpage. It's here.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/convrates.htm
25 posted on 12/04/2003 10:41:18 AM PST by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: Joe Brower; myself6
http://www.uh.edu/~dbarclay/rm/websites.htm
Selected Internet Sites on Gun Control
26 posted on 12/04/2003 10:42:39 AM PST by Freedom2specul8 (Please pray for our troops.... http://anyservicemember.navy.mil/)
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To: myself6
A good and recent study regarding the impact of gun control and it's effect on violent crime in Australia, England, and Canada can be found at:

http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/shared/readmore.asp?sNav=nr&id=570

27 posted on 12/04/2003 10:45:05 AM PST by Hat-Trick (Do you trust a government that does not trust you with guns?)
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To: myself6
A movie?

Take the class to see "Wrong Turn" with Eliza Duchku.

If the entire class isn't screaming for the so-called hero to pick up the patroling officer's gun toward the end of the movie, there's no hope for them.
28 posted on 12/04/2003 10:45:14 AM PST by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: myself6
Why are you uptight?

Break out the camcorder and make your own movie, in which you cite the relevant passages from the sources you know will support the thesis. Bases covered.

29 posted on 12/04/2003 10:45:36 AM PST by Cobra Scott
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To: myself6
http://www.wizard.net/~kc/firearms.html
Right2Arms: lots of links

http://www.guncite.com/





30 posted on 12/04/2003 10:46:02 AM PST by Freedom2specul8 (Please pray for our troops.... http://anyservicemember.navy.mil/)
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To: myself6
Innocents Betrayed is available throught JPFO by calling 1-800-869-1884 or online at http://jpfo.org

It would be perfect to offset the lies of the immensely fat scum Moore.
31 posted on 12/04/2003 10:47:00 AM PST by the gillman@blacklagoon.com
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To: myself6
http://www.packing.org/
32 posted on 12/04/2003 10:47:46 AM PST by OXENinFLA (Islam is like a new Communist infestation akin to what McCarthy exposed.)
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To: Shooter 2.5
Great link Shooter!!!!

Thanks!

33 posted on 12/04/2003 11:10:51 AM PST by Eaker (When the SHTF, I'll go down with a cross in one hand, and a Glock in the other.)
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To: myself6
For the movie, nothing beats Red Dawn.
34 posted on 12/04/2003 11:21:51 AM PST by TheAngryClam (Don't blame me, I voted for McClintock.)
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To: myself6
As you have noticed, there are some REALLY good research guys on FR.

My son was also given a similar assignment in college. Since his teacher is solidly anti-, I suggested that he write a paper demonstrating that based on the recent WI Supreme Court ruling which legitimized home- and work- concealed carry (if needed...) AND the very real possibility that another case could come up (carrying BETWEEN home and work), and then another, etc., etc.,--

that Wisconsin could wind up with concealed carry by Supreme Court rulings--but WITHOUT the licensing aspect now provided by the Bill.

An interesting, non-offensive possiblity for your son.
35 posted on 12/04/2003 11:27:26 AM PST by ninenot (So many cats, so few recipes)
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To: myself6; Monitor
Not that I disagree with Lott, or his book, but liberals have convinced themselves that Lott's work has been "debunked."

I've heard the same thing and there is at least one individual who is trying to discredit Lott personally and professionally. I haven't read any of Kleck's work but have heard him referenced many times in the CCW debate. A book I found extremely helpful is a collection of personal accounts by individuals who successfully defended themselves with CCW:

The best defense : true stories of intended victims who defended themselves with a firearm. Waters, Robert A.

212 p. ISBN : 1888952970 (pbk.)$14.95 Nashville, Tenn. : Cumberland House, c1998.

Subject Heading(s) : Firearms--United States--Use in crime prevention--Case studies. Self-defense--Case studies.

I will make one caveat about the book--it contains some very graphic material. It is not presented sensationally, its intent is to impress on readers' minds the extreme danger the victims faced. This book is an excellent source of case studies because Waters collected accounts from the broadest cross-section of individuals possible. One of the men interviewed, a Vet from Houston, was an integral part of getting CCW legislation passed in Texas. If you do want to use the book and can't get access to it, let me know and I'll do what I can to electronically transfer the information to you.

I will keep looking for websites. Having only .edu, .gov and .mil sites to choose from is making this quite a challenge. One I'm sure that wasn't lost on your son's teacher.

36 posted on 12/04/2003 11:30:14 AM PST by Donaeus (HYDRA-SHOK, it does the body good. . .Just ask a Neanderthal.)
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To: Eaker; Shooter 2.5
I would like to ditto eaker's reply....excellent link! I've never seen such plain language spoken from a govt website. Amazing. :)
37 posted on 12/04/2003 11:34:18 AM PST by Freedom2specul8 (Please pray for our troops.... http://anyservicemember.navy.mil/)
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To: Donaeus
btt
38 posted on 12/04/2003 11:35:02 AM PST by chuknospam
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To: myself6
try gunowners.org, they have lots of info
39 posted on 12/04/2003 11:55:26 AM PST by xm177e2 (Stalinists, Maoists, Ba'athists, Pacifists: Why are they always on the same side?)
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To: myself6
In case I don't have a chance to look them up, check out Vermont and Alaska government webpages. These states are very protective of 2nd Amendment rights as shall-issue states. There is also a small town in Kansas that has recently passed a city ordinance requiring every household in their jurisdiction to maintain a firearm and ammunition at all times or they would be fined. Check www.lauraingraham.com, she interviewed one of their deputies last week.

Good luck with this project and remember FReepers are only a post away.

40 posted on 12/04/2003 11:57:48 AM PST by Donaeus (HYDRA-SHOK, it does the body good. . .Just ask a Neanderthal.)
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To: myself6
get the crime statistics for CCW states vs. non-CCW states off of the the websites and do side by side comparisons.
41 posted on 12/04/2003 11:58:39 AM PST by Space Wrangler
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To: myself6
Movie? "Death Wish" (if they bitch about it being a 'fictional' depiction, challenge then on how that is different than 'Bowling for Columbine'

Another good movie would be the one on the Waco massecre.

For a site with good stats, try the CDC site, www.cdc.gov . Though they have a rep for carrying water for gun grabbers, their own stats betray them.

You'll find the info about more kids, 0-10 years old, drowning than dying from gunshots.

Seems like they had a study recently about the good of concealed weapons.
42 posted on 12/04/2003 12:10:34 PM PST by TC Rider (The United States Constitution 1791. All Rights Reserved.)
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To: Donaeus; All
Thanks for the info. I will take a look at this book.

Yeah, I normally wouldnt ask for help in searching the web for info, but like you said, the teacher / school intentionally made it a pain in the rear to defend any position contrary to their own.


I did come accross a good link to a pdf though.

"Multiple Victim public shootings, bombings, and right-to-carry concealed handgun laws: contrasting private and public law enforcement" - John R. lott and William M. Landes

http://papers.ssrn.com/paper.taf?abstract_id=161637


Thanks again to ALL freepers who helped out with this. I am going to order that JPFO video tonight I might even drive up to Holy Hill to get it. Kinda cool that they are in Wisconsin, only about an hour away from me.




43 posted on 12/04/2003 12:36:32 PM PST by myself6 (Unionize IT?! "I will stop the motor of the world" - John Galt)
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To: Donaeus
Forgot to mention about that PDF... if you look at the front cover it also states it is available off a .edu site.


http://www.law.uchicago.edu/publications/working/index.html
44 posted on 12/04/2003 12:39:50 PM PST by myself6 (Unionize IT?! "I will stop the motor of the world" - John Galt)
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To: TheAngryClam
:)


I have an old VHS copy of that show from when I was a kid. I still watch it every now and then.
45 posted on 12/04/2003 12:48:16 PM PST by myself6 (Unionize IT?! "I will stop the motor of the world" - John Galt)
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To: Eaker; ~Kim4VRWC's~
Thank you. It really pays to watch the CCW debates on FR. I was watching the Wisconsin Debate and the claim that CCW holders were much more violent than the non-licensees wasn't corrected by our side. That cost us some important PR. That's why I started to note the links so the next time I could mail some of the rebuttals to the associations.
46 posted on 12/04/2003 12:54:28 PM PST by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: myself6
If I was to pick one book, it'd be Gary Kleck's "Targeting Guns".
47 posted on 12/04/2003 1:19:11 PM PST by jdege
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To: myself6
OF course you should visit

www.keepandbeararms.com

www.saf.com

www.2asisters.org

And here is some good stuff.

Send me your email in a private note and I have some word files on other states, like MI OH, TN FL, TX etc.

Ohio draws bead on bill similar to Michigan concealed-gun law

Toledo Blade 01 December 2003 | JAMES DREW

Posted on 12/01/2003 8:14 AM CST by Deadeye Division Ohio draws bead on bill similar to Michigan concealed-gun law

By JAMES DREW BLADE COLUMBUS BUREAU CHIEF COLUMBUS - Since the Michigan law that made it easier for citizens to carry concealed handguns took effect in July, 2001, the number of permit holders has nearly doubled and crime has dropped.

Backers of a bill that would give Ohio a similar law say the result - more armed law-abiding citizens and lower crime - could happen in Ohio if the legislature and Gov. Bob Taft break their impasse.

In 2000, Michigan had an estimated 4,109 crimes per 100,000 residents, the FBI says. The rate in Ohio was 4,041 per 1,000 residents.

According to data for 2002, Michigan’s crime rate declined to 3,874 per 100,000 residents and Ohio’s increased to 4,107.

"For over 40 years, Michigan’s per capita crime rate has exceeded Ohio’s; the new [data] proves all that has changed," said Jim Irvine, chairman of the political action committee for Ohioans for Concealed Carry, Inc.

Ohio is one of five states that do not allow concealed handguns. The others are Illinois, Kansas, Nebraska, and Wisconsin.

In 1998, as legislators prepared to revise Michigan’s 71-year-old concealed-carry law so more citizens could get licenses, attorney James Neal wrote in the Lansing State Journal: "If concealed handguns are allowed to proliferate in Michigan, it will mean more violence, accidents, deaths, and injuries."

Leaders of the gun rights movement in Michigan assert that Mr. Neal and other critics were wrong, but they are reluctant to draw a correlation between more concealed-carry permits and less crime. There are too many variables, they say.

"There’s no way of making any direct connection, but there is no place where there has been any substantial increase in crime all attributable to you and I having more freedom to transport firearms," said Dale Shantz, a resident of Elberta, Mich., who is president of the Michigan Coalition for Responsible Gun Owners.

"It’s one more piece of liberty," added Daniel Bambery, a DeWitt, Mich., attorney who represents the pro-gun group.

Bruce Gelispie, an Akron native who has lived in Michigan for 19 years, said there are several incidents that show how concealed-carry has prevented crimes.

He said last year a friend had left the General Motors plant where he works in Flint about 2:30 a.m. when he reached a blocked train crossing. A man tried to get into his car through a rear passenger door.

Mr. Gelispie said his friend, who has a concealed-carry license, pulled his 45-caliber handgun and pointed it at the man, who ran away.

"My friend then called the police. You always do that, because the person might have gotten your license plate and could call the police and say you might have pulled a gun on them," said Mr. Gelispie, an auto worker who also is a National Rifle Association-trained instructor.

Michigan’s less restrictive concealed-carry law hasn’t created problems, but there is no evidence it has led to a drop in crime, said Jim Kessler, policy director for Americans for Gun Safety, in Washington.

"One of the reasons is so few people actually choose to carry a concealed weapon. In rural areas, very few people are afraid of crime. In urban areas, people are more concerned about crime, but they think carrying a gun will get them into more trouble, will put their lives at risk more, and they’re probably right," Mr. Kessler said.

For 2000, Michigan reported an estimated 52,242 violent crimes in urban areas. The figure in Ohio was 35,112.

Last year, Michigan reported 50,097 violent crimes in urban areas. The figure for Ohio increased to 37,428.

Urban law enforcement officials in Michigan cited closer cooperation among agencies and improved crime-fighting techniques for the decline.

In the rural county of Hillsdale, with a population of about 50,000, Sheriff Stan W. Burchardt said the new concealed-carry law hasn’t had an effect on the low crime rate.

"Where the help might be is in areas where there are car-jackings or people are strong-armed robbed, but that doesn’t happen here," the sheriff said.

Detroit City Councilman Kay Everett said the law has given more business owners a "comfort zone" in Wayne County. But she said the debate pales in importance to efforts to crack down on trafficking of illegal guns in Detroit.

"These gun dealers are allowed to sell weapons on the open market and they get away with selling AK-47s. The federal government is not doing its job," she said.

Michigan has had a law enabling citizens to carry concealed handguns since 1927.

The new law in Michigan which took effect on July 1, 2001, was to address varying standards that county gun boards used to judge applications for licenses.

Before the new law was in place, county gun boards - which consist of the prosecuting attorney, sheriff, and a representative of the state police - had too much power to determine who received a permit that could be used throughout the state, critics said.

Applicants had to be at least age 18 and were required to demonstrate a need to carry a concealed handgun. There was no requirement for training.

In some counties, those without a felony conviction could get a concealed-carry permit. In others, retired law enforcement officers or security guards generally were the only ones to get them, Mr. Bambery said.

"We have 83 counties and we had 83 different standards to receive a permit," he said. In December, 2000, the Michigan legislature approved a bill that says county gun boards "shall issue" permits to applicants who don’t have a criminal record or a history of mental illness. Then-Gov. John Engler signed it into law.

Counting concealed-carry permits with restrictions, Michigan had 51,954 permit holders in 2000.

Nearly 30 months after the revised law took effect, Michigan has 90,369 permit holders, state officials say.

From July 1, 2001, to June 30 of this year, county gun boards have rejected slightly more than 1 percent of the applications for such permits. For example, the Hillsdale County gun board denied only 12 of 509 applications in that period.

The leading reasons for rejected applications in Michigan are county gun board decisions and residents with misdemeanor convictions. Although gun boards have less discretion than before July 1, 2001, they can reject applications by citing "clear and convincing evidence" of civil infractions, crimes, personal protection order or injunctions, police reports, other evidence, or "statements that bear directly on the applicant’s ability to carry a concealed weapon," according to the Monroe County Sheriff’s Department.

From July 1, 2001, to June of this year, about one-tenth of one percent of licenses were revoked, with the leading reason being applicants convicted of a felony or a misdemeanor. Crimes have included a rape, a felony assault, domestic assault, and alcohol-related offenses.

The low rate of applications denied and licenses revoked does not surprise Mr. Bambery, given the requirement that applicants pass background checks.

"The people who are exercising this right are really the people who have never been in trouble and foreseeably probably never will be," he said.

But the entire concealed-carry system relies on background check systems that have flaws, said Mr. Kessler, the policy director for Americans for Gun Safety.

In a 2002 report titled "Broken Records," Americans for Gun Safety said 401 people in Michigan who shouldn’t have been able to buy guns were able to do so despite background checks.

Utah is the only state that checks daily if a concealed-carry permit holder has committed a crime and if so, that person’s permit is revoked, Mr. Kessler said.

"It requires computerizing your records and cross-checking, which a lot of states have not done," he said.

Although county gun board meetings are open to the public, Michigan law exempts information about concealed-carry permits from the state public records law.

That prevents citizens and the press from finding out who applied for a permit and who has them, said Carolynne Jarvis, executive director of the Michigan Partnership to Prevent Gun Violence, a Lansing-based gun-control group.

"There’s no way to determine what the effect of this law is. We’d like to pretend there is, but there isn’t. The whole purpose of the way the law was put together is you couldn’t and it’s not accidental," Ms. Jarvis said.

In Ohio, Governor Taft - who has said for nearly five years he won’t sign a concealed-carry bill into law unless it has adequate background checks, training requirements, and support from law enforcement - surprised legislators recently when he said he would veto any bill that bars the public from knowing who has permits.

Backers of the bill say that cloaking who is carrying handguns is crucial to deterring crime. They also point out that the House version of the bill would require an annual report on the number of licenses issued, renewed, suspended, revoked, and denied - similar to information that the Michigan State Police provide. Mr. Bambery said the Michigan law has worked well, but he said some counties improperly have tried to add conditions.

The Michigan Coalition for Responsible Gun Owners recently sued Kent County, which has required applicants to provide a letter from their physician vouching they aren’t or haven’t been mentally ill.

The additional paperwork is unnecessary because applicants must sign a statement allowing county gun boards to access their medical records, the group charges.

Mr. Bambery, who described himself as a libertarian, said his criteria for evaluating the new law is a simple one.

"It’s how many citizens have decided they are going to exercise their rights to a concealed-carry permit. It has been a fairly significant number, but it has not been the rush that the critics were forecasting," he said.

Mr. Bambery is among those who don’t have a permit.

"I live in a small town. I have pistols and enjoy shooting them, and I took the concealed-carry training. But it’s not my thing," he said.

Last month, two men drove up to 22-year-old Johnny Donaldson, Jr., as he beat a 16-year-old girl with a metal pipe on the west side of Detroit, police said.

The man in the passenger seat shot and killed Mr. Donaldson and sped away. No arrests have been made and there is no evidence that the gunman had a concealed-carry permit.

But John Birch, president of a group in Oak Brook, Ill., that supports such laws and other gun issues, said he hopes the gunman does have a permit and will step forward.

"Stopping an in-progress felony is good citizenship. I think the fear level has been transferred from the victims to the criminals," Mr. Birch said.

48 posted on 12/04/2003 1:24:34 PM PST by CHICAGOFARMER (Citizen Carry)
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To: myself6
Alan Korwin and Georgean Lockwood have put out books for some states, but I don't know about WI. These books give all the gun laws in the particular state that the book covers. They have one general volume called Gun Laws of America.

They list the following website: www.gunlaws.com, or email: books@gunlaws.com

49 posted on 12/04/2003 2:08:36 PM PST by basil (basil)
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To: myself6; Joe Brower
Suggest you contact:

Wisconsin Concealed Carry Association

Address:
WCCA
3263 S. 45th St
Milwaukee, WI 53219

Telephone:
414.543.1916

Fax:
414.543.0855

Email:
info@wisconsinconcealedcarry.com

50 posted on 12/04/2003 4:07:21 PM PST by PhilDragoo (Hitlery: das Butch von Buchenvald)
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