Part of 1996 Anti-Terror Law Overturned (9th Circuit: Surprise, Surprise, Surprise!)

foxnews.com ^ | 12/04/03 | AP

[thoughtomator]

One can appreciate the glories of Turkey without taking upon oneself a tyrannical law. These two things are not exclusive of each other!

This is not about the PKK and LTTE, nor Turkey and Sri Lanka - this is about the rule of law in America and the limits of our government's power.

[a_Turk]

>> Little does Homeowner know that the FTO is on the banned organization list, as this particular FTO doesn't make the evening news!

A strong law doesn't mean the Homeowner will be charged. But it does mean that the ones collecting from Homeowners will be dealt with without getting away with simply pleading ignorance.

[a_Turk]

>> What happened 100 or 100000 of years ago just isn't relevant.

Exactly right.

We don't support any terror organizations against our neighbors. Guys like that so called Christian priest, however, do. It's documented fact. Some of the documentation is contained in the bookmark "The Forgotten Photos" on my links page.

[Capitalist Eric]

Make the choice. Now.

Ok. The "bearded lady" is right. You're wrong.

Turkey turned her back on us, when it came time to make things happen in Iraq.

They're NOT our allies, they're NOT our friends... They're just riding on the fence, waiting to see who remains standing after the dust settles... That way, they can enjoy the benefits without having to get their hands dirty, or face their collective conscience (what little there is of it).

I agree with your take on this ruling (i.e., that it's "pro-terror"). But trying to say this will end an "alliance" that is best described as a joke, is ludicrous. The sad thing is, you can't comprehend how silly your warning truly is.

[thoughtomator]

Well, if the people collecting money are doing so in order to give it to people they know commit murder, then they rightfully should be charged with being an accomplice to murder. I don't want people on the streets who want to collect money for murderers! But the teenager who is doing the collection rounds as a summer job, for example, may not at all understand that his actions facilitate murder. The Tamil asylum seeker may have understood that the forced labor he underwent in Sri Lanka was "material support" - but the fact that he worked at gunpoint is very relevant in a judgement of his behavior - and thoroughly irrelevant under current law.

People in this country who can be shown to have voluntarily assisted an enemy of the United States in making war against us need to be charged with treason. People who behave in that manner need to be shot or hanged (sadly drawn and quartered is no longer in stock), not put in jail for 7 years and let out afterwards.

In trying to pussyfoot around the issue, Congress made a poor and unconstitutional law. It's not the first time it has happened.

One can say at the same time that killers and bad laws must be condemned. It is an oft-abused but quite successful fallacy to say that if you don't want X, then you must choose Y. That's only true if Y can be shown to be the best way to avoid X, and there is no better method Z available.

In this case, better method Z is the existing law concerning treason and sedition.

[thoughtomator]

In the US we are wary of putting our liberty at the discretion of the King's prosecutor. With the closest of friends, this is still not on the table, and won't ever be as long as America is America.

[a_Turk]

>> if the people collecting money are doing so in order to give it to people they know commit murder, then they rightfully should be charged with being an accomplice to murder

Which charge will likely never be proven. There goze the surplis.

[a_Turk]

>> To be a liberal, one must be mentally deranged, or ignorant of reality

You're a liberal then? At least by your definition?

If it weren't for liberals you'd still be fearing the edge of the world..

[Capitalist Eric]

Cute response. Totally devoid of substance, of course, but still cute.

Go BACK to Turkey, turkey.

[a_Turk]

>> as long as America is America

It is the dawning of the age of aquarius? That sun has set on 9/11.

Now it's time to sacrifice and prevail together. Good against evil. Now is not the time to rebel against the "Force" of good.

[a_Turk]

Focus your anger towards those who deserve it.

To stereotype is a sign of ignorance.

[Robert_Paulson2]

Since every dollar we spend, at some point has within ten degrees of separation, benefitted a terrorist, or a supporter thereof... be it filling up at a corner gas station owned for the benefit of wackos, or be it giving money to the sierra club, allowing another subsidiary to hire an employee who suppoorts ELF...

EVERY one of us can be twisted into being in some form of terrorist support. Every one of us can be accused, or investigated as a result, even of unfounded accusations.

and that is EXACTLY how LEOS, and STATISTS intend to use this law. I saw not long ago, that a legal whorehouse had been shut down, by twisting the patriot act to include some aspect of their clientelle or business practices... all via the patriot act.

and yes, we have a LOT of freepers who cheer this on, because they think this supports good ole family values and the Christian faith.

Will they feel that way, when a hillary clone takes the power unto themself and twists the law against the "good people" of america? NO... but it WILL be WAY too late.

There will be more and more abuses of power.
The ninth was right, imho, to strike this down...
I hope it is upheld.
that patriot act needs to be challenged in eveyr aspect, in order to more sharply define where it may, and where it may NOT be used, or HOW and upon WHOM.

The law should have never applied to Americans first.
It should have been applied to foreigners, illegals and spies FIRST and foremost.

I think even the ninth could be right to strike this down.

[thoughtomator]

Intent is routinely proven beyond a reasonable doubt in our system of justice. No other crime has required the suspension of consideration of intent in order to combat it effectively (except the War on Drugs, which is also at odds with the Constitution, corrupt, and hypocritical to the core - not a good place to start when thinking up examples of either good or effective laws).

The current law against treason will suffice for any legitimate purpose currently being considered. All we need are people with the testicles to enforce it.

[a_Turk]

>> The current law against treason

Does not cover terrorists who do not target you.

Now you sound a wee bit European...

[thoughtomator]

You know, nobody alleged that Turkey was a Hussein supporter, even when it wouldn't even let an ally's troops march through its territory.... worse, even, but I won't go through all the gory details. I remember discussing them with you at the time. End result is that we still like Turkey, but we know that security issues are going to be a street four lanes in one direction and one lane in the other.

We are together on the core issue - murderers and those unaccountable to law or human decency must be stopped, at all cost. They must not be allowed to impose their way upon us.

We also need to be extremely careful that we don't impose their way upon ourselves!

By the way... Turkey is too good for the EU. If it stopped prostrating itself in front of thoroughly racist Frenchmen and put its efforts towards working with those who would treat the Turkish people with respect, it would do a lot better for itself in the long run.

[linksduster]

Before you and everyone else here leap to conclusions, read the actual opinion

Don't confuse me with the facts. Had this been support for abortion clinic bombers, the court reached the correct result

[Mad_Tom_Rackham]

[Another case involved six Americans of Yemeni descent who were convicted under the law of providing "material support" to Al Qaeda (search). Authorities described the six, who lived just blocks apart in Lackawanna, N.Y., as a sleeper cell awaiting orders from Usama bin Laden's network....The Lackawanna case isn't governed by the 9th Circuit. Still, if it survives a Supreme Court appeal, Wednesday's decision in San Francisco may be a blow to Ashcroft's prosecution of that and other cases in the war on terror.}

Can we withhold financing of the 9th CCOA due to their aiding and abeting terrorists?

[thoughtomator]

Yes, that's right. We have no obligation to take sides in local disputes. The PKK is absolutely zero threat to the US. In fact they are helping us in Iraq, more than Turkey is. So that kind of ties our hands, when in the most important military mission we have at this time, we are to make it illegal to raise funds for a group helping us at the behest of a nation that refuses to do so.

Where the PKK specifically is involved, we're in a quandary. If we act against the PKK, are we assisting in another Turk genocide? 1.5 million Armenians can't all be wrong. And Turkey did outlaw Kurd language and culture, after all. Turkey was not just minding its own business. Turkey has a pattern of annihilating minority cultures, and a fairly recent one - recent enough that it is fair to question whether the PKK is legitimately fighting for the lives of the Kurd minority. I will confess I know little of the details of the problem in Turkey other than its chronic nature and a general sense of the magnitude of the conflict, but I do understand why a non-Turkic ethnic or religious minority in Turkey might feel they have a short shelf life.

It's the same story in Sri Lanka. I know the details in that case particularly well. I got to read an account today of a five-year-old boy murdered by the army, along with his family. I almost lost my lunch right there at my desk. It was clear, apparently, from the crushed bones and ruptured stomach that the boy had been tortured before he was killed. Am I to say that someone fighting for the right of this boy not to be subject to this treatment is wrong to do so? I will not. I may say he is wrong to do this or that, and that certain means are not justified no matter how noble the ends, but a fight for freedom from torture is not something I will condemn.

The Tamils are subject to widespread torture, arbitrary detention, bombings of villages, pogroms, and so on. Now one can say that the LTTE in some aspects is absolutely in the wrong - the kidnappings, intimidation, forced labor, child soldiers - yet still hold valid the idea that having been reduced to a state of slavery, it is legitimate to fight a war to end that condition of slavery.


Anyway... so as not to confuse two separate issues... there is the law considered under the Court's opinion, which is unconstitutional; and then there are the issues between Turks and Kurds, Sinhalese and Tamils, which are debatable.

[a_Turk]

LOL!, I mean I agree with you on a lot of that but you've gotto appreciate that a lot of folks in Turkey were extremely wary of letting 80000 US soldiers fully mechanized into southeastern Turkey, where those terrorists freely distributing literature and collecting donations in America were hoping to establish their feifdom..

I understand your point about imposing their way upon ourselves.. Just think of the whole country having gone military. You can live like that for the time being until the danger has passed. I lived it, and it was good - but not for the bad guys. Oh, and a few hundred thousand people who had forgotten their ids at home and were picked up at checkpoints spent a few weeks locked up waiting for their hearings.. So they've been more careful since then I guess.

You'll live. Just don't think you can have your cake and eat it too :)

[a_Turk]

>> Yes, that's right. We have no obligation to take sides in local disputes.

Ok then. Al Qaeda is no threat to us, and it was the CIA and Mossad who blew up the synagogues, etcetera in Istanbul.

Why should I worry about Al Qaeda, right? She's all yours.

With that attitude you would probably not feel like a real man cozying up to us, would you? Or are you a tomato after all?