Attack on first amendment at Colorado State University

5 DEC 03 | Darren Morrison

[RMrattlesnake]

Attack on first amendment at Colorado State University

By Darren Morrison

I work at C.S.U. in housing operations management. Today I was reprimanded because I gave several students little calendars that had my church and the address of my church on them. I was told by my supervisor that that was pushing my religion and it was illegal for me to do so. Well There was no pushing religion here it was only a simple calendar no doctrine was mentioned it is no different that a calendar from a bank or an insurance agent. It simple had my church’s name “Platteville Baptist Church” and the address on it at the very bottom it had in italics “For in him we live”. That is it, nothing more this calendars was a harmless gift. I would like to add that not a single student complained. In fact I had several students come up and thank me for the calendars. This is nothing more than the university expressing it’s haltered toward Christians. My supervisor was only acting on what she was taught. I do not blame her for this cowardly deed. I blame those over her and the instruction it’s self.

I was very much stressed over being publicly reprimanded in front of students like I was a piece of trash. I was so stressed my heart beat rose and my hand was shaking so I had to go home sick.

This is nothing new, a couple of years ago I had the bill of rights posted on my door. It was nothing more that the first ten bill of rights. I was reprimanded for that as well. I was told that the bill of rights might offend someone so they had to come down. I took it down and was giving a special meeting with a few of my superiors and told that I had no right to post such offensive material on my door. That it was okay to put stuff on my door, just not what they found to be offensive. I had a Culpepper American flag on there to and I had to take that down as well.

Funny thing is that ever day I see things that offend me, yet I say nothing because I believe in the first amendment. You can always see something pushing homosexuality on a daily bases. Homosexuals have freedoms to express what I find offensive. Muslim posters are in every hall and there are special bulletin boards were that put up information about the Islam. But they say it is against the law to mention Christianly. I need your help and prayer. I am being treated unfairly because I am out spoken about being a Christian. At Colorado State University it is ok to come out as a homosexual but if you are a Christian you are told to hide it and go into the closet. I will not be a closet Christian and neither should anyone.

The first Amendment says “Amendment 1, Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances”. Colorado State University had made a law that prohibited the free exercise of my religion, which is clear. My free speech has been abridged. No I do not push my politics on any one and I do not express my beliefs to those who do not what to hear it.

Funny thing is if you are a left winger that would not hesitate to let you express your self. I have seen it out side offices of certain people were there left wing anti-American propaganda is posted not in there offices but on the hall ways out side there offices and that is just fine with C.S.U..

[RMrattlesnake]

Pleace wirte or e-mail C.S.U.

http://welcome.colostate.edu/

If enough people complain maybe things will change. Pleace feel free to use this articail can copy it and post anywere you want on the net. I do not have the internet had to drop by the libary to post this but the help and prayers from anyone will be helpfulk and I will be truly greatful.

Thank you and GOD BLESS

[sauropod]

Live Free or Die! Tell the PTB that if they remove the 1st 10 Amendments that you will sue.

[StonyBurk]

Just may send a query to C.S.U. Mind if I ask for one of your callandars from them-- Must verify any purported violations of the First Amendment and the Soviet communist
"Separation of the church from th eState,and of the School
from the church. While I'm at it I may ask for an academic
overview of th ehistory of educaiton in America pre John
Deweys evil influence.Phillipeans 4:13"I can do all things
through Christ which stregnthen me."ALlways willing to
speak up for a Patriotic American.

[JustPlainJoe]

I think your supervisor is a Nazi who doesn't even know the laws he's supposedly trying to protect. They call US mind-numbed robots? hmmm.

This 'supervisor' has no interest in protecting the 'rights' of others. He's simply got a grudge against you personally. Thanks to the effective efforts of the political correctness crowd, he's got a great opportunity to 'get you'. He's the one who should be reprimanded. The coward.

[RMrattlesnake]

Yes and thank you.

[RMrattlesnake]

I am loyal to my employer and subervisor I try to give repect to anyone who has a position over me but this is to far. I am just a small person don't mean phyiscally it I am a janitor and no-one cares about Janitors that is why they are getting away with this.

[frodolives]

Yep, he wasn't pushing religion, he just wanted them to have calendars-RIGHT!

[RMrattlesnake]

YES, that is right

[drjimmy]

Well There was no pushing religion here it was only a simple calendar no doctrine was mentioned it is no different that a calendar from a bank or an insurance agent. It simple had my church’s name “Platteville Baptist Church” and the address on it at the very bottom it had in italics “For in him we live”. That is it, nothing more this calendars was a harmless gift.

Was it harmless? Of course. Were you trying to push religion? Of course. While you're reciting the Bill of Rights, you might want to bone up on the 10 Commandments. The one about bearing false witness comes to mind. I'd have more sympathy for your cause and your case if you weren't trying to have it both ways.

[Fpimentel]

"Go sell CRAZY somewhere else, we're all stocked up here."

[RMrattlesnake]

What are you talking about

[WackyKat]

I am sympathetic to your complaint, since I don't see what you did as any big deal, but you should be aware that employers do have the right to prohibit religious proselytizing by employees

[RMrattlesnake]

Sorry

[RMrattlesnake]

I do not believe I was proselytizing just gave out a few calenders not religious tracts. there was no doctrine on them. The school does promote Islam and wicca. So they are favoring one religion over an other here.

[AppyPappy]

Were you trying to push religion? Of course.

Proof please.

[AppyPappy]

employers do have the right to prohibit religious proselytizing by employees

It was a calendar, not a tract.

[Drammach]

The school does promote Islam and wicca. So they are favoring one religion over an other here.

There is a premise called "equal justice under the law"..

If what you say is true, you have a legal complaint that can be taken to court.

SUE THE BASTARDS.

[squidly]

If you want administration approval, pass out some Planned Parenthood calendars.

[Blzbba]

"there was no doctrine on them"

(from the original post):
"..very bottom it had in italics “For in him we live”. "


Sorry, but that's enough to be considered doctrine.


"The school does promote Islam and wicca."


What proof of that do you have?

[Blzbba]

I don't know what the hell they find offensive about the Bill of Rights. I'd put that back up if I were you, and threaten to sue 'em.

[CO_dreamer]

FYI Colorado is an at-will employment state. CSU can fire you at any time for any reason or no reason. Continually pissing off your supervisors probably is not a great idea. IMO.

[SGCOS]

Hey, speaking of football, I read that CSU and USC have signed a home and home series starting next year. Cool!

Oh, if you want to pass out calenders and such, put a picture of a sick horse or rabid dog or something similar. Nobody will complain.

[WackyKat]

I agree this is a borderline case, which is why I characterized it as no big deal.I was merely pointing out the position the university will likely take

[drjimmy]

Proof please

On his member page, RMrattlesnake says he is "called to mission." He hands out calendars produced to promote his church that say, "For in him we live."

I agreed with him that what he did was harmless. Because he is lying about his intent, however, I have no sympathy for his case.

[AppyPappy]

Please prove he is lying about his intent. I think you are assuming too much.

[TheCrusader]

"Yep, he wasn't pushing religion, he just wanted them to have calendars-RIGHT!"

Yep, them danged illegal calendars with a church on them, they have converted more people to Christianity than Saint Francis. We'd better burn them all before the unruly crush of converts starts doing other dangerous things, like reading the Bible.

[elwood]

Man, you sound just like a whiny liberal. The first amendment thing is a bit of a stretch. I'm sick of artists always crying wolf about the 1st amendment when somebody private tries to censor them, so to be consistent I have to complain when you do it, too. CSU isn't the Colorado legislature, so I'm not sure the constitution applies here. If it were a private university, they could certainly shut you up. I don't know the subtleties involved with the fact that CSU is a state school, but neither do you. Religion is understandably a bit of a hot topic at a state school because of another amendment with which I'm sure you're familiar, but perhaps less enamoured.

Now, I completely disagree with what CSU did, and think they shouldn't have a problem with people pushing religion. But the fact that you're an employee means they can probably rightfully control what you push on students, even if it's as benign as a church calendar. Maybe you should look into the law before you try to get people to flame your employer. It seems you're pretty stocked up on self-righteous indignation so maybe some knowledge of the law should be next on your list.

[RMrattlesnake]

Just walk into any dorm and read the bullinton boards. Go ot the student center. It is ever were they don't hide it.

[Rebelbase]

"I had the bill of rights posted on my door. It was nothing more that the first ten bill of rights. I was reprimanded for that as well. I was told that the bill of rights might offend someone so they had to come down."

Unreal.

In my day we all had the local butcher's newspaper ad headline cut out and taped to the outside of our dorm doors:

BEST MEAT IN TOWN

[drjimmy]

Please prove he is lying about his intent. I think you are assuming too much.
I think that I am assuming exactly the right amount. On his member page he claims that he is called to mission and that he believes in the literal word of the Bible. He would be violating his own religious precepts if he wasn't pushing his religion. If his calendar had the name of an insurance company on it, he would be pushing the insurance company. His calendar had the name of his church on it and the statement, "For in him we live." He was pushing his religion, something he denies doing (I wonder if he would deny it three times before the cock crows?).

[WackyKat]

He is an employee of the university , not a student. The situation is totally different

[Johnny Gage]

I would suggest you contact:

The Rutherford Institute

Or:

Thomas More Law Center

They love to take on Anti-american bastards.

[JCEccles]

Suppose he were to wear on the job a teeshirt with the words "For in him we live" printed on it. Would that be inappropriate? Would that constitute "pushing" his religion?

Or suppose he greeted everyone with the words, "I'm a Christian." Would that be permissible? If he wore a crucifix around his neck, would the school be justified in telling him to remove it?

You're far too sensitive if this upsets you. It is easy to argue that anytime a person publicly aligns himself with a religion that he is "pushing" the religion on the people who see him. It is easy to so argue, but it is the argument of someone who is grossly intolerant of the expression of religious belief. If that "someone" is government, it is a violation of the First Amendment.

[JCEccles]

He is an employee of the university , not a student. The situation is totally different

Are employees required to take on the trappings of atheism to keep their jobs?

[StonyBurk]

Just re-read the Colorado State ConstitutionArticle II Sec.4
Bill Of Rights /Religious Freedom--That the free exercise and enjoyment of religious profession and worship,without
discrimination,shall forever hereafter be gaurenteed;and
no person shall be denied any civil or political right,
priveledge or capacity,on account of his opinions concerning religion. . . "Nothing in our State constitution
suggests the State University is exempted from the provisions of our State Bill of Rights.

[JCEccles]

CSU isn't the Colorado legislature, so I'm not sure the constitution applies here. If it were a private university, they could certainly shut you up.

CSU is a state school; it receives much federal funding. If I were a member of the Colorado bar, I would love to be involved in this case.

The Pharisees, models of self-righteousness, were condemned in the New Testament for their hypertechnical straining at gnats while swallowing camels whole. Atheists who hyperventilate and howl over the least bit of expression of religion in the public forum seem to be cut from the same bolt of self-righteous cloth.

[JCEccles]

Great post. We tend to forget that state constitutions are also prime guarantors of personal liberty. In some instances, state consitutional provisions are much stronger and clearer than corresponding federal provisions.

[PAR35]

I would add a third to that list.

American Center for Law and Justice
http://www.aclj.org/

[Centennial]

Christianity is the one religion that is fair game to discriminate against if you are a PC spouting leftist.
Tolerance is encouraged only if it fits their sick mind set. The left of today has a lot more in common with the NAZI party of the thirties than they would like to recognize. The left proclaims to abhore "hate speech" that is unless it is their hate speech. The same goes for censurship. I am a true liberal, I support your right to hate anyone you want to, say anything you please, offend anyone that suits you, burn crosses, paint swasticas (sic) on your lawn or anything else that makes you happy.

As long as you don't piss on my lawn go for it. I could care less what someone else says, thinks, or what they do as long as no physical harm is committed to a person.

[Poser]

If you are unwilling to sue or quit to protect your rights, you will have to do as your employers ask.

I wouldn't push the calander issue, as there was indeed some religous information on them. Employees and students are treated differently by universities. Students are encouraged to take advantage of their 1st ammendment rights, but employees aren't. That is within the power of the employer.

I suggest talking to your local press about the Bill of Rights incedent. Ask to remain anonymous, but get the news out.

[AppyPappy]

I think you see conspiracies where they don't exist. Sometimes a calendar is just a calendar.

[drjimmy]

Suppose he were to wear on the job a teeshirt with the words "For in him we live" printed on it. Would that be inappropriate? Would that constitute "pushing" his religion?
But he wasn't wearing anything, he was handing it out. If he was giving teeshirts with the words "For him we live" and a picture of his church with the address on it, he would be pushing his religion, and the same thing goes for the calendars.

Instead of reacting to what you think I wrote, read what I actually wrote. I don't think it is inappropriate to do what he did, but based on what he says in his post and on his member page, I think he is not being honest about his motivation.

[elwood]

Just re-read the Colorado State ConstitutionArticle II Sec.4 Bill Of Rights /Religious Freedom--That the free exercise and enjoyment of religious profession and worship,without discrimination,shall forever hereafter be gaurenteed;and no person shall be denied any civil or political right, priveledge or capacity,on account of his opinions concerning religion. . . "Nothing in our State constitution suggests the State University is exempted from the provisions of our State Bill of Rights.

Huh? Totally irrelevent. Nobody was infringing on his practice of religion. They were just telling him that as an employee of CSU, while he's on the clock there shall be no handing out church stuff. Hell, they could just tell him "no handing out calendars or literature of ANY sort; we don't want to incur any liability" and they'd be perfectly within their right as his employer. Seriously, this is EXACTLY the kind of hypocritical BS from the religious nuts that makes it hard for people to want to be conservative or even Republican. I'm sure the original poster has no problems with anti-sodomy laws, but the second somebody keeps him from thumping a bible while he's working he takes a page from the liberal handbook and suggests a mass protest and starts caterwailing about his free speech rights.

I really wish the Right could dump the religious zealots, but unfortunately we don't have the numbers without them so we're stuck with the unholy alliance of political conservatives with religious conservatives even though they have no business together in a country like America.

[elwood]

CSU is a state school; it receives much federal funding. If I were a member of the Colorado bar, I would love to be involved in this case. The Pharisees, models of self-righteousness, were condemned in the New Testament for their hypertechnical straining at gnats while swallowing camels whole. Atheists who hyperventilate and howl over the least bit of expression of religion in the public forum seem to be cut from the same bolt of self-righteous cloth.

I'm not sure I see what you're getting at. The laws for what the government can do to suppress "speech" are different from those applied to an employer. Now, if the employer happens to be the government, I'm not sure how that changes things. Maybe you can add some much needed actual knowledge to this thread by giving us your legal opinion on this (it sounds like you're a lawyer, right?). My point in the beginning of this was that the poster was just freaking out about his rights when he clearly has no idea what his rights are. I'm fairly convinced this isn't as simple a matter as he thinks it is.

[elwood]

I do not believe I was proselytizing just gave out a few calenders not religious tracts. there was no doctrine on them. The school does promote Islam and wicca. So they are favoring one religion over an other here.

I highly doubt that. They probably allow student groups of such persuasions (as they should) and they allow students to engage in such religious activities, perhaps provided space for them. But that doesn't mean they allow other employees of the university to in any way promote them. I highly doubt they'd allow any employee to hand out the Koran, do you? Or even a calendar with the name and address of a Mosque.

Be honest: you weren't primarily interested in making sure students knew which day of the week it was, were you? Well, that's exactly why your supervisor put a stop to it. Maybe he does have a grudge, but that doesn't mean he was wrong, and frankly, I'd probably hate you, too, if you worked for me. I bet this isn't the first time you've made a self-righeous stink about some abuse suffered at the hands of your employer, is it?

[Chants]

I am not sure I agree with your legal analysis there, elwood.

I do believe that the employer has an interest in an orderly workplace. But where the employer is also the government, that interest must also be balanced against free speech concerns to pass constitutional muster. And where that speech in religious in nature, establishment clause issues are also implicated.

The government, as an employer, cannot prohibit religious speech where it permits other forms of non-work related speech to occur at the work site. Accordingly, government employees are free to engage in religious discussions at work and to display religious items around thier work area. If the government employer has a public bullitin board, employees may post religious related item on the board.

Handing out calendars is speech, and fairly innocuous speech. He is free to talk about his religion, just like other CSU employees are free to talk about the Broncos, Michael Jackson, or the war in Iraq. Limiting this man's right to talk about his religion does precisely what the the first ammendment prohibits: it limits the free exercise of religion and arbitrarily allows some forms of speech while disallowing others.