Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

While 4th ID Major General Presses "Be Lethal" Message, One of his own Lt. Col. Stands So Charged
Sierra Times ^ | december 9, 2003 | Debi Brand

Posted on 12/09/2003 4:05:51 PM PST by Ispy4u

In seeking to find the equitableness in the case against Lt. Col Allen B. West, one struggles as the news poured out of Iraq, in regard to the action of the troops of the 4th ID--which Col West was a part of up until he was removed from his battalion command-- with in the span of one week, included the following:

November 17 Reuters reported: Angered by bomb attacks ... the commander of a US battalion in Iraq sent his tanks and armored vehicles through the streets on Monday in a demonstration of firepower to insurgents. Weapons of choice: Abrams tanks, Bradley fighting vehicles, armored personnel carriers, “.. Infantrymen in full battle dress... machine-guns mounted on Humvees...”

Message cast: It’s in your best interest to not resist us; cooperate with us; tell us what you know of the activities aiding this insurgency. Or there will be severe and fearsome consequences to pay. November 18, World Net Daily report:

'Heroic' officer faces Army hearing Lt. Col. West argues aggressive interrogation saved lives of troops Article breakdown: after suffering previous ambush attacks to his troops, upon being tipped-off of yet another organized attack designed for he and his men; in an attempt to advert that pending attack, Lt. Col. Allen B. West-- former commander of the 4th ID’s 2 battalion of it’s 20th Field Artillery Regiment--used a demonstration of fire power. Thus, successfully obtained legitimate human intel sufficient to avoid that foe-scheduled appointment with death for he and his troops.

Weapon of choice: 9 mm weapon. Fired twice; close to the mans head; with the urging: “Talk or I kill.”

The man, who had been with his female interrogators for two hours and yet only claimed he knew nothing, suddenly with the aid to his memory granted him by the aggressive actions of Col. West, was blest with total recall.

Additionally on November 18, Washington Post carried a story: This, a narrative of this division’s major general, MG Ray Odierno. It Spelled out, how he pressed to drive home his message to officers under his command: “ ... make sure you understand my intent: that I want to be lethal. Make them, (any insurgents) understand.”

This General is said to “care deeply” for his soldiers. Said to be a man who “lead by example”, a no nonsense kind of a leader. Article also spotlighted, General Odierno was “the youngest division commander and one of the most rapidly promoted officers of West Point's Class of 1976.”

Next caption: 18 November, Los Angeles Times: U.S. Flexes Its Muscles in Iraq's North, Tells of “Intimidation campaign.” Used to 'send a signal.’ Weapon of choice: “a missile carrying a 500-pound warhead.”

Message implied: No more footsies; Cooperate: Or there will be hell to pay.

November 19, Reuters: Emotional U.S. officer admits wrongdoing in Iraq.

Opening paragraphs quote a man who says he knows his actions were not in line with Article 128 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, but argues his actions were in line with his will to do all he could to keep his promise to the families he and his boys left back in Ft. Hood, TX. That being, bring them home alive.

Weapon of choice: recall the 9mm pistol.

Intended end: Cooperate; or else.

Twentieth November, Army Times: “Military in Iraq gunning more firepower as scare tactic for insurgents”

Weapons of choice: “artillery, tanks and aircraft.” Message sent: Conveyed in article’s title.

All these, from the ranks of the 4th ID.

Now the hearing is past, and once he receives the recommendation from the Article 32 hearing officer the decision of what to do to Col. West lies with Major General Ray Odierno.

Should that recommendation be to proceed with a court martial, the General is in a tough spot.

How can he in good conscience do any thing less than decide to bring this--except for it’s sombourous possible ends --ridiculum on our will to be lethal without apology, to an all ready all-to-late and none-to-soon abrupt end?

Mean while, a division watches. So too, a nation.

Likewise an most lethal foe.

All-the-while, daily this past week the death toll in the 4th ID continued to rise. And as a mother of one 4th ID soldier, we can only pray our son is blessed enough to be serving under the command of a man the likes of the height, width and stock not far from that seen in Lt. Col Allen B. West.

Debi M. Brand 918-283-2477 20405 E. Hwy. 20 Claremore, OK 74019 Mother of a 4th ID Soldier, Serving in Iraq since Early April, When his unit first went in


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: 4thid; alanbwest; allenwest; col; colwest; ltc; ltcwest; west
Another article about LTC West. Maybe some of the folks who gave me crap about posting editorials from some left leaning authors will be happier now. Posting of these articles is primarily to preserve the record, secondarily to enable me to criticize the actions of LTC Alan B. West.
1 posted on 12/09/2003 4:05:55 PM PST by Ispy4u
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Ispy4u; Poohbah; Pukin Dog; Calpernia; Jeff Head; caisson71; BSunday; Vets_Husband_and_Wife; ...
Ping! Another West article if you're interested.
2 posted on 12/09/2003 4:09:04 PM PST by Ispy4u
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Ispy4u
So when is the trial of the idiot who decided to bring up Lt. Col. West on charges? And identity, please, too - if anyone knows it, preferably with an address or email where I can send some appropriately scalding invective.
3 posted on 12/09/2003 4:22:51 PM PST by thoughtomator (The U.N. is a terrorist organization)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Ispy4u
Meanwhile, a division watches. So too, a nation.

This is a new kind of war that America engages in, and President George W. Bush was right in taking pre-emptive action to remove Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq.

That same reason for sending American troops into Iraq also justifies the action Lt. Col. West used to interrogate the Iraqi suspect.

The is not a Marquis of Queensbury war. Our men are fighting for the survival of America.

4 posted on 12/09/2003 4:27:19 PM PST by thinktwice (America is truly blessed ... with George W. Bush as President..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Ispy4u
to enable me to criticize the actions of LTC Alan B. West.

Why would you want to do that?

LVM

5 posted on 12/09/2003 4:29:35 PM PST by LasVegasMac (Thunder was his engine and White Lightning was his load....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Ispy4u
All-the-while, daily this past week the death toll in the 4th ID continued to rise. And as a mother of one 4th ID soldier, we can only pray our son is blessed enough to be serving under the command of a man the likes of the height, width and stock not far from that seen in Lt. Col Allen B. West.

It isn't surprizing to know a MOM would want her son to serve under the likes of LTC West. God willing, the charges will be dismissed. It is hard to find positive articles about our military in a liberal press, when they are driven by a social agenda. Point being, the feel good, mamby pamby, NO GUNS crowd (except for "criminals", cause that's what you end up with, with gun control)who would rather see our guys killed, than to see us rough up a terrorist to save some of our own.

I guess I should just say "thanks" for pinging me to a thread that was somewhat showing the "other" side.

Now we'll see if General Odierno has the courage to DO the RIGHT thing and DISMISS these charges, and restore LTC Wests command to him!!

6 posted on 12/09/2003 4:35:26 PM PST by Vets_Husband_and_Wife
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: thinktwice
BUMP!! Great post!
7 posted on 12/09/2003 4:36:51 PM PST by Vets_Husband_and_Wife
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Ispy4u
Ping! Another West article if you're interested.

Okay, but I don't suspect you'll be able to sustain your position any better than you did in the last two ; )

8 posted on 12/09/2003 4:43:54 PM PST by BSunday (Libs, libs, everywhere, but not a brain to pick)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: LasVegasMac
lol.....Don't get Ispy started. He values the regulation book more than human lives, and doesn't think that battlefield initiative should EVER under ANY circumstance involve breaking even the most trivial and outdated regulation. He also doesn't seem to comprehend that severely punishing Col. West encourages our enemies, therefore placing our troops more at risk than they already are. The consequence: lowered morale and a higher (U.S.) dead body count.
9 posted on 12/09/2003 4:47:34 PM PST by Mr. Mojo
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Ispy4u
And more chest-thumping from those folks who don't care if we become as vile as the folks we spent blood and treasure to remove from Iraq.
10 posted on 12/09/2003 4:50:17 PM PST by Poohbah ("Beware the fury of a patient man" -- John Dryden)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Poohbah
And more chest-thumping from those folks who don't care if we become as vile as the folks we spent blood and treasure to remove from Iraq.

So you equate Col. West's shooting his gun in the air to scare a prisoner into revealing plans for an ambush that could wipe out his men with the Ba'athist Party's torture and murder of hundreds of thousands of their own people? Don't take this the wrong way, but that is without question the dumbest thing I've ever seen posted on this website. You should be ashamed of yourself.

11 posted on 12/09/2003 4:56:11 PM PST by Mr. Mojo
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Poohbah; Ispy4u
Sorry to disappoint, but we do care what we become, but let's not overdramatize what LTC West did. He simply got the job done the most efficient was possible and didn't hurt anybody - a fact which seems to be lost on you both. You are acting like one of these clownish public school administrators who discover one of their little Zero Tolerance rules was technically broken.

"OMG the world is going to end!!!! A ruuuuuuuuuuuuule was broooooooooooken!!!!

12 posted on 12/09/2003 4:58:32 PM PST by BSunday (Libs, libs, everywhere, but not a brain to pick)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: BSunday
They were both probably "hall monitors" in grade school.

And I suspect their teachers got quite a few apples.

13 posted on 12/09/2003 5:02:04 PM PST by Mr. Mojo
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Mr. Mojo; Ispy4u
So you equate Col. West's shooting his gun in the air to scare a prisoner into revealing plans for an ambush that could wipe out his men with the Ba'athist Party's torture and murder of hundreds of thousands of their own people?

It was a favorite interrogation strategy used of the late and unlamented Mukhbarat. Yes, I am equating it as such--the first step onto the slippery slope of "the ends justifies the means" is the easiest to avoid and the hardest to recover from.

Incidentally, it has yet to be proven that LTC West's "interrogation" accomplished what he claims it did.

Also, if (a) the ambush was actually going to happen (not established as fact) and (b) it really COULD "wipe out his men" (an entire battalion), then LTC West should have resigned his commission in favor of someone who can demonstrate basic tactical competence.

Don't take this the wrong way, but that is without question the dumbest thing I've ever seen posted on this website.

Try reading your own screeds on this topic.

14 posted on 12/09/2003 5:04:36 PM PST by Poohbah ("Beware the fury of a patient man" -- John Dryden)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Poohbah
My suspicions are correct; you're a complete moron.
15 posted on 12/09/2003 5:05:35 PM PST by Mr. Mojo
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: Poohbah
Also, if (a) the ambush was actually going to happen (not established as fact

You must have caught this disease from Ispy - constantly questioning the integrity and character of others.

16 posted on 12/09/2003 5:07:52 PM PST by BSunday (Libs, libs, everywhere, but not a brain to pick)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: thoughtomator
So when is the trial of the idiot who decided to bring up Lt. Col. West on charges? And identity, please, too - if anyone knows it, preferably with an address or email where I can send some appropriately scalding invective.

Count on this much: her future career in the US military is toast.

-archy-/-

17 posted on 12/09/2003 5:08:11 PM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: BSunday; Ispy4u
Sorry to disappoint, but we do care what we become, but let's not overdramatize what LTC West did.

I'm not overdramatizing what he did. He willfully violated orders; he gave illegal orders to his personnel, who have since been punished for obeying those orders.

You cannot punish the subordinate and then pat the senior on the head for the same action.

He simply got the job done the most efficient was possible and didn't hurt anybody - a fact which seems to be lost on you both.

It hasn't been established as fact that he actually got the job done as he described it--a fact which seems to be lost on the West groupies.

You are acting like one of these clownish public school administrators who discover one of their little Zero Tolerance rules was technically broken.

This is what we know, factually:

(1) LTC West did violate orders from his seniors, and gave illegal orders to his subordinates.

(2) An ambush that may or may not have been actually planned did not take place.

(3) No one has demonstrated a solid connection between (1) and (2). Indeed, no one has actually demonstrated that (2) was actually about to happen.

(4) West's subordinates have been punished for obeying West's illegal orders.

(5) West now faces prosecution for issuing those orders and disobeying lawful orders to begin with.

That's all we know at this time.

18 posted on 12/09/2003 5:12:42 PM PST by Poohbah ("Beware the fury of a patient man" -- John Dryden)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Mr. Mojo; Ispy4u
My suspicions are correct; you're a complete moron.

No rebuttal of the facts, merely ad hominem.

19 posted on 12/09/2003 5:14:01 PM PST by Poohbah ("Beware the fury of a patient man" -- John Dryden)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Mr. Mojo; Poohbah
I hereby nominate Poohbah to a job involving airport security.
20 posted on 12/09/2003 5:14:47 PM PST by BSunday (Libs, libs, everywhere, but not a brain to pick)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Poohbah; Ispy4u; Mr. Mojo
No rebuttal of the facts, merely ad hominem.

What facts ?????? !!!

21 posted on 12/09/2003 5:16:34 PM PST by BSunday (Libs, libs, everywhere, but not a brain to pick)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: BSunday; Ispy4u
You must have caught this disease from Ispy - constantly questioning the integrity and character of others.

LTC West's own behavior has caused me to question his integrity and character.

Before the Article 32 hearing, he claimed that (a) he never struck the prisoner, and (b) he did not order his subordinates to strike the prisoner.

At the Article 32 hearing, we found out that he did both.

Tell me that you did one thing, and then tell me that you did exactly the opposite--yes, I will question your integrity and character.

Or should we merely start parsing his statements in Clintonian fashion?

22 posted on 12/09/2003 5:17:16 PM PST by Poohbah ("Beware the fury of a patient man" -- John Dryden)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Poohbah; Ispy4u; Mr. Mojo
Oooooh, you mean these facts...

This is what we know, factually: (1) LTC West did violate orders from his seniors, and gave illegal orders to his subordinates. (2) An ambush that may or may not have been actually planned did not take place. (3) No one has demonstrated a solid connection between (1) and (2). Indeed, no one has actually demonstrated that (2) was actually about to happen. (4) West's subordinates have been punished for obeying West's illegal orders. (5) West now faces prosecution for issuing those orders and disobeying lawful orders to begin with. That's all we know at this time.

No, that's not all we know. We know that there is NO EARTHLY REASON, WHEN TAKING INTO ACCOUNT COMMON SENSE, why LTC West is in trouble...

23 posted on 12/09/2003 5:20:21 PM PST by BSunday (Libs, libs, everywhere, but not a brain to pick)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Poohbah
The fact that you (in post #10) drew moral equivalence between Col. West's (non-lethal) actions against a single Iraqi terrorist to save his men and the Ba'athist party's torture of hundreds of thousands of innocent people is simply reprehensible, and indicates a serious mental condition.

Btw, I'm watching the Col.'s attorney on O'Reilly right now and he said that the Army has just now decided not to court martial this American hero. ......And is pension is secure as well. He's going to get just a slap on the wrists, much to your chagrin I'd imagine.

24 posted on 12/09/2003 5:31:39 PM PST by Mr. Mojo
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: BSunday; Ispy4u
No, that's not all we know. We know that there is NO EARTHLY REASON, WHEN TAKING INTO ACCOUNT COMMON SENSE, why LTC West is in trouble...

Please demonstrate that the ambush was actually about to happen. No one here has done so; they are merely taking LTC West's word for it. And since his statements to the press prior to the Article 32 hearing about his actions are at significant variance with his statements at the Article 32 hearing, I am unwilling to take LTC West's word for it.

25 posted on 12/09/2003 5:32:31 PM PST by Poohbah ("Beware the fury of a patient man" -- John Dryden)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Mr. Mojo
The fact that you (in post #10) drew moral equivalence between Col. West's (non-lethal) actions against a single Iraqi terrorist to save his men and the Ba'athist party's torture of hundreds of thousands of innocent people is simply reprehensible, and indicates a serious mental condition.

That mental condition is called "integrity." Fake executions (such as that engaged in by West) and beating prisoners (such as that engaged by West) were standard techniques of the trade within Saddam Hussein's secret police. Civilized nations don't engage in these sorts of practices for a reason: Where does it stop? At what point do you say, "OK, he isn't talking" and stop these activities?

26 posted on 12/09/2003 5:55:46 PM PST by Poohbah ("Beware the fury of a patient man" -- John Dryden)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: Poohbah
And more chest-thumping from those folks who don't care if we become as vile as the folks we spent blood and treasure to remove from Iraq.

Get a life and stop sensationalizing. We'll never be that vile and you know it. West's actions weren't even on the radar scope compared to Saddam. Have you been taking propaganda training from the nazi press?

27 posted on 12/09/2003 7:03:54 PM PST by Indie (The Nazis were Socialists. Dean, you are a Nazi.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Ispy4u; Indie; Poohbah
Apparently, the CO of the 4th ID has made a decision.

Read about it HERE.

Verbal reprimand, charges will not be pressed. He'll get his full retirement benefits. I'm waiting for confirmation from Iraq.

28 posted on 12/09/2003 8:13:07 PM PST by Jeff Head
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Poohbah
"Please demonstrate that the ambush was actually about to happen."

Well partner, do you think the ragheads have some video they could loan us or maybe they'd like to testify in person that they had an ambush all prepared to go; what d'ya think? Would that work, huh, huh?

You sound like some fresh-faced young gung ho 2nd looie, the type who came to VN with a life expectancy measured in minutes.
29 posted on 12/09/2003 8:30:46 PM PST by Chu Gary
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: Ispy4u
Posting of these articles is primarily to preserve the record, secondarily to enable me to criticize the actions of LTC Alan B. West.

And others, it now appears....

Last weekend, three American soldiers were ordered to stand trial in January on charges of abusing Iraqi prisoners of war at the detention center at Camp Bucca in southern Iraq.
The charges grew out of an alleged incident May 12 in which the three soldiers from the 320th Military Police Battalion allegedly punched and kicked Iraqi POWs. The soldiers said they acted in self-defense, that conditions were chaotic at Camp Bucca, and that guards had been harassed and assaulted daily by unruly prisoners.

The three soldiers, Master Sgt. Lisa Marie Girman, 35; Staff Sgt. Scott A. McKenzie, 38; and Spc. Timothy F. Canjar, 21, are accused of dereliction of duty, cruelty and maltreatment of enemy prisoners of war, filling false official statements, obstruction of justice and conspiracy to obstruct justice.

A fourth soldier originally held on the same allegations, Sgt. Shawna Edmondson, 24, has received an other-than-honorable discharge from the military, which she requested rather than face martial proceedings.


30 posted on 12/09/2003 10:49:09 PM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: LasVegasMac
Although many, in fact most, people here have supported his actions I do not.

It's not because I'm soft on bad guys or want to appease terrorists or have some feeling of treating them fair. I am a disciplinarian, you fail to obey orders, no matter what your reasons and there is some price to pay. I have not advocated West losing his retirement benefits, although if he did it would only be his own fault.

I believe that LTC West had many other options at his disposal and he chose the one that directly counteracted the orders regarding prisoner treatment, in front of subordinates no less. This is an inexcuseable act IMO and were I the Division Commander 4th ID I would have this matter go to court martial so that he could face a panel of his peers to determine his discipline. In my mind that is the right thing to do.
31 posted on 12/10/2003 2:59:36 AM PST by Ispy4u
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Jeff Head
Thank you Jeff.
32 posted on 12/10/2003 3:05:43 AM PST by Ispy4u
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: archy
My postings have nothing to do with those troops, what ever they did they faced the music for, OTOH LTC West and his lawyer started a PR campaign to fuzzy up that what he did was wrong. It worked on folks like you.
33 posted on 12/10/2003 3:12:46 AM PST by Ispy4u
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: Chu Gary
Well partner, do you think the ragheads have some video they could loan us or maybe they'd like to testify in person that they had an ambush all prepared to go; what d'ya think? Would that work, huh, huh?

Well, it's either that, or I rely on LTC West's word.

I'd be a hell of a lot more sanguine over the latter if he hadn't already "misled" (as Clinton would say) the public over his actions.

34 posted on 12/10/2003 4:16:29 AM PST by Poohbah ("Beware the fury of a patient man" -- John Dryden)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: Mr. Mojo; Jeff Head; Ispy4u; Pukin Dog
Btw, I'm watching the Col.'s attorney on O'Reilly right now and he said that the Army has just now decided not to court martial this American hero. ......And is pension is secure as well. He's going to get just a slap on the wrists, much to your chagrin I'd imagine.

Actually, it isn't to my chagrin. The guy's CO made a decision. That's the way it works.

I still think a lot less of West now than I did at the beginning. He chose to make a public spectacle of the matter, and "misled" the public regarding his actions in doing so.

35 posted on 12/10/2003 4:19:23 AM PST by Poohbah ("Beware the fury of a patient man" -- John Dryden)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: Poohbah
I have been in contact with West personally for several weeks now. At no time has he misled me in the least, a point I have pointed out in the threads I have posted.

Others, paraphrasing or parsing his words may have, but he has not.

As to his making a public spectacle. If this had been handled in this current fashion, which is what he expected and believed should happen, he would not have done anything. Someone was out to hang his hide on a rack and he exercised his own perogative in the end to save his pension for his family...and it worked. I cannot fault him for that.

In the end, you seem to suggest he should take the unwarrented loss of his pension and court martial "for the service". His oath is to the constitutiona and the wellbeing of this nation...he was willing to take one for that, and is now going to. But he was being treated (in his own estimation and in the estimation of many, many others) in a manner that was far disprorortionate to what he did and he determined to do something about it.

I am glad he did. Just my own opinion.

36 posted on 12/10/2003 5:01:26 AM PST by Jeff Head
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: Jeff Head
I have been in contact with West personally for several weeks now. At no time has he misled me in the least, a point I have pointed out in the threads I have posted.

Fine. He talked straight to you. His attorney (who legally speaks for him--why do you think i's called a "power of attorney," anyway?) said otherwise.

As to his making a public spectacle. If this had been handled in this current fashion, which is what he expected and believed should happen, he would not have done anything. Someone was out to hang his hide on a rack and he exercised his own perogative in the end to save his pension for his family...and it worked. I cannot fault him for that.

When it involves false statements to the public, I do have a problem with that, and can fault him.

In the end, you seem to suggest he should take the unwarrented loss of his pension and court martial "for the service".

No, I would prefer that LTC West and his attorney had either told the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth to the public--or that they had simply kept silent until the Article 32 hearing.

His oath is to the constitutiona and the wellbeing of this nation...he was willing to take one for that, and is now going to.

As long as he didn't suffer any material hardship, he's happy. F*** his troops, though.

Fine example of moral courage.

But he was being treated (in his own estimation and in the estimation of many, many others) in a manner that was far disprorortionate to what he did and he determined to do something about it.

Uh-huh. No problem with his troops getting punished for obeying his illegal orders--but he sure didn't want any materially adverse consequences for himself.

I've had the displeasure of serving under two commanders who thought and acted like that. One is far too many.

37 posted on 12/10/2003 5:08:29 AM PST by Poohbah ("Beware the fury of a patient man" -- John Dryden)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: Poohbah
Your characterizations of the lTC are, IMHO, ill informed and off base. We clearly disagree heartily regarding them.

I have talked not only to LTC West, but to troops there and to their families. They do not feel in the least that he screwed them, to the contrary, to the person they have been willing to support him and lauded him.

Clearly, there is at least one individual in the battalion who feels otherwise to some extent. I have not been able to find that one individual who wrote, in passing, a comment that brought the JAG into it and led to what we have seen. Nonetheless, I am confidant in the story as I have presented here on FR.

We clearly disagree...I'm not surprised by that but am glad that such disagreements and debate have allowed the story to get aired completely and for this end to be reached...which is what the LTC felt would occur from the get-go.

'nuff said on my part, others can come to their own conclusions.

38 posted on 12/10/2003 5:36:43 AM PST by Jeff Head
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: Ispy4u
My postings have nothing to do with those troops, what ever they did they faced the music for, OTOH LTC West and his lawyer started a PR campaign to fuzzy up that what he did was wrong. It worked on folks like you.

Nothing to do with them? Why they've been engaging in these *illegal* and excessive interrogations that are such an issue with you when it's a combat officer performing them instead of an MP or wannabee spook *professional interrogator*. Now we have a choice of either cutting LTC West some slack, or going back and applying the exact same standard to every MP and M.I. interrogator who's ever performed any sort of similar act, and also bringing Article 128 charges against them, too...including those in Afghanistan. Maybe they'll even apply it retroactively to Johnny Spahn....no exceptions, right?

As for it working on *folks like me* it looks like those folks like me include at least several congressmen and Army Chief of Staff Pete Schoomaker....

-archy-/-

39 posted on 12/10/2003 5:37:50 AM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: archy
The charges brought are at the discretion of the unit commander and the SJA. That is their job and their duty. If some of those MPs get charged with Art. 128 then so what, if they only get Art. 15s fine.

My argument from the beginning has been based against the assumption here that LTC West was getting a raw deal. Well maybe he did, but those are the way the cards fall when you go against the UCMJ. I have had my share of trouble in my years of service, no one is perfect, part of being in the service is standing on the carpet when you foul up. It needs to be that way because discipline is what makes an army better than the next.

PR goes a long way in this world, and that is one thing I could never resort to when I knew I fouled up. LTC West may have believed his decision was right, but he also knew it came with consequences, he didn't trust that the system would work so he used PR to mitigate that risk. A dishonorable move in my opinion, but I'm not going to entirely blame him for it, it was probably his lawyers idea.

In the end justice has been served, and I wish LTC West the best in retirement.
40 posted on 12/10/2003 6:03:21 AM PST by Ispy4u
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: BSunday
Our nation has embraced a good rule in sports activities that applies in Col. West's military interrogation situtation.

"No harm, no foul."

41 posted on 12/10/2003 6:51:38 AM PST by thinktwice (America is truly blessed ... with George W. Bush as President..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Poohbah
Please demonstrate that the ambush was actually about to happen

No need to. The burden of proof rests on the prosecution. Now please stop trying to assassinate people's character.

42 posted on 12/10/2003 8:19:03 AM PST by BSunday (Libs, libs, everywhere, but not a brain to pick)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: thinktwice
"No harm, no foul."

Good point. I think it is probably one of the basic laws of the universe, or something like that.

43 posted on 12/10/2003 8:38:20 AM PST by BSunday (Libs, libs, everywhere, but not a brain to pick)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: Ispy4u
Good thing you are not responsible for other lives, isn't it.

LVM

44 posted on 12/10/2003 12:00:01 PM PST by LasVegasMac (Thunder was his engine and White Lightning was his load....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: LasVegasMac
How do you know I'm not?
45 posted on 12/11/2003 5:30:48 AM PST by Ispy4u
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: Ispy4u
How do you know I'm not?

You would have killed someone by now.

LVM

46 posted on 12/11/2003 8:13:36 AM PST by LasVegasMac (Thunder was his engine and White Lightning was his load....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: Ispy4u
Obviously, you enjoy the insults. You will NEVER, NEVER change some people's minds.
47 posted on 12/11/2003 8:27:45 AM PST by verity
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: verity
I guess I'm just as stubborn.

Thanks for reminding me that beating my head against the wall is bad for me. : )
48 posted on 12/11/2003 8:30:26 AM PST by Ispy4u
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: Ispy4u
And it damages the wall! :~)
49 posted on 12/11/2003 9:12:07 AM PST by verity
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson