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Social Security for Mexicans closer to reality (Millions of immigrants to collect benefits)
www.wnd.com ^ | December 11, 2003 | WorldNetDaily

Posted on 12/11/2003 7:55:33 PM PST by VU4G10

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To: VU4G10
While millions of Americans under 30 will never see a dime.

It's time to dump this socialist program.
51 posted on 12/11/2003 10:36:45 PM PST by Fledermaus (Fascists, Totalitarians, Baathists, Communists, Socialists, Democrats - what's the difference?)
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To: nutmeg
read later
52 posted on 12/11/2003 10:37:31 PM PST by nutmeg (Is the DemocRATic party extinct yet?)
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To: AD from SpringBay
How bad is this mess going to get before the taxpayers decide to do something about it?

As bad as you can possibly imagine. Taxpayers are some of the stupidest people on the planet. They NEVER hold our government accountable.

53 posted on 12/11/2003 10:37:52 PM PST by Fledermaus (Fascists, Totalitarians, Baathists, Communists, Socialists, Democrats - what's the difference?)
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To: VU4G10
"Any "totalization" agreement ultimately reached must be approved by congress."

You mean the same congress that recently passed legislation, then signed by W that the Supremes upheld as law to discount the 1st ammendment? That congress?
54 posted on 12/11/2003 10:42:44 PM PST by Blue Collar Christian (Part of the Vast Right Wing Apparatus since I could vote. ><BCC>)
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To: VU4G10
the Manchurian Canidate.....
55 posted on 12/11/2003 10:44:48 PM PST by cherry
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To: AD from SpringBay
well, this is just an underhanded way for us to have the one world government...its' just that we don't know it yet...

maybe they won't come right out and say it, but with this new SS disaster, which the hard working Americans pay into for their whole freaking lives, its like us redistributing our wealth to the world in a round about way....

I don't know what else to do about it except cheat....

56 posted on 12/11/2003 10:49:37 PM PST by cherry
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To: 3catsanadog
maybe we all just have to move to a huge commune and the hell with the govt.....but they would probably put the tanks to us.....

we need to learn about the underground economy and the maifia....that may be the only way hard working folks can get their fair share...

57 posted on 12/11/2003 10:52:40 PM PST by cherry
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To: cherry
"we need to learn about the underground economy and the mafia...that may be the only way hard working folks can get their fair share."

How about we get Mexican citizenships, renounce our U.S. citizenships, sneak back across the border and work tax free?

Here in the U.S. we could get gov't medical benifits, welfare...
58 posted on 12/11/2003 11:06:28 PM PST by Blue Collar Christian (Part of the Vast Right Wing Apparatus since I could vote. ><BCC>)
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To: Pro-Bush; gubamyster; FairOpinion; FoxFang; FITZ; moehoward; Nea Wood; Joe Hadenuf; sangoo; ...
I sure don't see SS being around for my generation even and what Bush is doing, what DHS isn't doing, forget it, we're just a hapless country very soon
59 posted on 12/12/2003 5:21:53 AM PST by JustPiper (Teach the Children to fight Liberalism ! They will be voting in 2008 !!!)
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To: JustPiper
Globalization bump.
60 posted on 12/12/2003 4:10:55 PM PST by 4.1O dana super trac pak (Don't avoid. Read Joe Guzzardi.)
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To: Hoosier-Daddy
The government should be sued if it provides illegals with SS benefits -- there are lawsuits to stop illegal acts. You cannot collect from criminal acts. And they should not even be in this country, much less obtain benefits.

This CNN poll on amnesty needs freeping.

Link to Lou Dobbs

61 posted on 12/12/2003 4:24:46 PM PST by Dante3
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To: VU4G10
This has got to be a freakin' joke.

If this goes through then FICA taxes/payments should become voluntary. I know mine will. If they start paying SS benefits to illegals...I swear I'll find a way to stop paying in.

I'm not going to be able to collect after retirement anyway so why pay in to it? To support Jorge and Maria the illegal immigrants? Hell no.

62 posted on 12/12/2003 4:31:45 PM PST by Bloody Sam Roberts (I have opinions of my own - strong opinions - but I don't always agree with them.)
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To: VU4G10
"Let's be honest, there are millions of Mexican immigrants contributing to the Social Security system...Katherine Culliton, an attorney...told Gannett. "

Oh really, Katherine?

Prove it. They're undocumented! There isn't a single way you can even begin to back up that assinine statement.

If they don't have SS numbers then they don't pay into the system!

63 posted on 12/12/2003 4:36:02 PM PST by Bloody Sam Roberts (I have opinions of my own - strong opinions - but I don't always agree with them.)
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To: GeronL
Are we gonna wait for years to get a revolt going??? Why not now??? But it's gotta cover more than just social security money going south of the border... Need to get a Million Man/Woman March going on... Call Talk Show Programs, let Washington Know we are coming!!! Gotta Force those guys to Go Back and Read The U.S. Constitution and Follow it.... What do you think?
64 posted on 12/12/2003 5:20:37 PM PST by Deltaforceeoo7
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To: VU4G10
Wouldn't it be cheaper to just invade the damn country and take it over? Sheesh! This is insane. Something like this *could* make me think twice in November...
65 posted on 12/12/2003 5:22:30 PM PST by rintense
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To: Deltaforceeoo7
It will take years to organize. The people are sheep. We'll need many millions to threaten, and mean it, to withhold their taxes from Washington DC.
66 posted on 12/12/2003 8:05:26 PM PST by GeronL (Is your Tagline weak, limp and ineffective? Has it hurt your relationship? Try TiAGra today!!!!)
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To: Faramir
"This is infuriating. I'm Canadian but my wife is an American citizen. She worked in the US for 11 years. So I figure she paid her dues and is entitled to something. Fairly enough she will receive 11/35th of a full social security pension."

What's a "full Social Security" pension?

She's entitled ro receive something in proportion to what she paid in.

By the way. let me point something out from the article:

"Currently, around 94,000 beneficiaries living abroad have been brought into the U.S. system under the auspices of about 20 international treaties designed to help Americans sent abroad by their employers signed since 1977. The accords are mostly with European countries, but also include Canada and South Korea."

So, apparently either your entire problem is with Mexicans, or you didn't read the article before you posted.

Which is it?

67 posted on 12/13/2003 9:10:00 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Gift Is To See The Trout.)
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Comment #68 Removed by Moderator

To: VU4G10
This is insane!! Great, just great. What do we as U.S. citizens get out of this... other than scr****?

Methinks the Republicans are getting too cocky for their own good.

69 posted on 12/13/2003 9:16:21 AM PST by madison10
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Man!

I have GOT to use spell check before posting!
70 posted on 12/13/2003 9:26:47 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Gift Is To See The Trout.)
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts
"Prove it. They're undocumented! There isn't a single way you can even begin to back up that asinine statement."

NO, you prove YOUR asinine statement that all Mexican immigrants contributing to Social Security are undocumented.

There isn't a single way you can, is there?

The article deals with the already existing policy to pay Social Security benefits back to people that paid into the system, most conservatives would agree that the money paid into Social Security does not belong to the government, or to society at large, but rather to the individual who had part of their wages deducted by the Fed.

The illegal immigrants are going to get payment issue is just another red herring.

Undocumented aliens are simply that, undocumented..meaning there's no way to prove they actually paid into the system, which is a requirement before you get paid by the system.

71 posted on 12/13/2003 9:34:09 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Gift Is To See The Trout.)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
So you're saying that this is no big deal & alot of noise for nothing? We won't be paying illegals...it just looks that way? In other words, ANYONE who pays into the Soc Sec. system should get their money & it doesn't matter where they came from or where they will head afterward. This whole thing has probably been blown out of proportion, or misworded to look like something very new, but it it isn't?
72 posted on 12/13/2003 9:38:52 AM PST by madison10
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To: Luis Gonzalez
you prove YOUR asinine statement that all Mexican immigrants contributing to Social Security are undocumented.

Not ALL, my fellow Freepr, just the illegals. That's who my statement was in reference to.

The article deals with the already existing policy to pay Social Security benefits back to people that paid into the system...

Yes, I realized this after getting more info on the subject from other sources.

The illegal immigrants are going to get payment issue is just another red herring.

Again, I realize that.

73 posted on 12/13/2003 10:00:30 AM PST by Bloody Sam Roberts (I have opinions of my own - strong opinions - but I don't always agree with them.)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
I have GOT to use spell check before posting!

Apparently, you need to use more than a spell checker since the Admin Mod saw fit to remove the comment.

74 posted on 12/13/2003 10:02:28 AM PST by Bloody Sam Roberts (I have opinions of my own - strong opinions - but I don't always agree with them.)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Unless, of course, you asked them to remove it.
75 posted on 12/13/2003 10:03:31 AM PST by Bloody Sam Roberts (I have opinions of my own - strong opinions - but I don't always agree with them.)
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To: Hoosier-Daddy
I don't know, but would be glad to be part of a class action suit on behalf of legal, American citizens.
76 posted on 12/13/2003 10:11:00 AM PST by freeangel (freeangel)
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To: VU4G10
Bush is great, eh? Bush SUCKS!
77 posted on 12/13/2003 10:12:05 AM PST by DeathAngel
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To: templar
Bush is bound and determined to get a LULAC endorsement.
78 posted on 12/13/2003 10:29:37 AM PST by Terry Mross
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To: Deltaforceeoo7; GeronL
From the Liberty Committee's email dated 12/12/03
kentsnyder@thelibertycommittee.org

Early this year, we warned you about politicians and special-interest groups quietly working on a program that would give billions of dollars in Social Security benefits to illegal aliens from Mexico.

Congressman Ron Paul introduced H.R. 489, The Social Security for American Citizens Only Act to stop that from happening. Even though H.R. 489 was introduced 11 months ago, the bill has only 18 cosponsors as of today. We need to change that right away.

Urge your U.S. representative to cosponsor H.R. 489. Send a message by going to http://capwiz.com/liberty/issues/bills/?bill=1518616

79 posted on 12/13/2003 11:17:52 AM PST by ohmage
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To: ohmage
Ron Paul is the greatest guy in Congress. Its too bad there isn't another 500 like him. The Social Security for foreigners will pass no matter what we do or say, its preordained.

The only way to change things is a tax revolt or a real one, take your pick.

80 posted on 12/13/2003 12:02:02 PM PST by GeronL (Is your Tagline weak, limp and ineffective? Has it hurt your relationship? Try TiAGra today!!!!)
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts
I asked for the comment to be removed.
81 posted on 12/13/2003 2:12:25 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Gift Is To See The Trout.)
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts
"Let's be honest, there are millions of Mexican immigrants contributing to the Social Security system...Katherine Culliton, an attorney...told Gannett."

"Oh really, Katherine?"

"Prove it. They're undocumented! There isn't a single way you can even begin to back up that asinine statement."

"If they don't have SS numbers then they don't pay into the system!" -- Bloody Sam Roberts

That's your post that I was responding to.

This attorney is speaking of course, about the millions of legal immigrants who continue to contribute, as all working legal immigrants do, into the SS fund.

You assumed that every immigrant she was talking about is an illegal, otherwise, why would you have made a comment about them not having SS numbers?

By the way, illegals pay into the system, they do it by using someone else's SS number when they get a job. But sine they are here illegally, and not using their own number, it's impossible for them to collect.

82 posted on 12/13/2003 2:22:40 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Gift Is To See The Trout.)
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To: madison10
"In other words, ANYONE who pays into the Soc Sec. system should get their money & it doesn't matter where they came from or where they will head afterward."

Well, whose money is it exactly?

An individual performed a job for which he was paid by an employer, and the government took part of it from him.

The reasoning behind the government taking money from you via SS deductions, is that there is a "kitty" being set up for you which will be available at the time of your retirement.

If the government does not carry out their duty in paying the people from whom they took money at the time of their retirement, it would be theft.

I'm not in favor of the government stealing money from people's paychecks, are you?

83 posted on 12/13/2003 2:29:05 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Gift Is To See The Trout.)
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts
By the way, please accept my apologies if I came on so strong.

I get so frustrated when I realize that people comment on issues, and articles without having either researched the issue, or read the article.
84 posted on 12/13/2003 2:31:17 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Gift Is To See The Trout.)
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To: rintense
Read the article, it's no big deal

It's entering into an agreement with Mexico that we already have with a whole lot of countries...and illegals will not collect because they can't prove they paid into the system.

Much ado about nothing.
85 posted on 12/13/2003 2:33:05 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Gift Is To See The Trout.)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
I get so frustrated when I realize that people comment on issues, and articles without having either researched the issue, or read the article.

Oh, I do it all the time. I have a hair trigger on my keyboard.

Lazamataz isn't the only one who's been "Proudly posting without reading the article since 1999".

86 posted on 12/13/2003 2:44:07 PM PST by Bloody Sam Roberts (I have opinions of my own - strong opinions - but I don't always agree with them.)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Much ado about nothing.

But, Luis, the Government Accounting Office, our official watch dog bureau that seems to have more integrity and common sense than most politically controlled bureaucrats, does not think it is much ado about nothing.

...SSA took no technical staff on this visit to assess system controls or data integrity processes. In effect, SSA only briefly observed the operations of the Mexican social security program. Moreover, SSA did not document its efforts or perform any additional analyses then, or at a later time, to assess the integrity of Mexico's social security data and the controls over that data. In particular, SSA officials provided no evidence they examined key elements of Mexico's program such as its controls over the posting of earnings and its processes for obtaining key birth and death information for Mexican citizens. Nor did SSA evaluate how access to Mexican data and records is controlled and monitored to prevent unauthorized use or whether internal and external audit functions exist to evaluate operations...

I'm sure there are fine, wonderful citizens of Mexico, Luis, that lead exemplary lives. I'm just as sure they don't work in Mexico's government bureaucracy.

That the SSA would be willing to give what amounts to the keys to our social security money vault to a foriegn government with a tradition steeped in corruption, incompetence and sheer criminality is beyond belief.

It takes very little imagination to picture the guy who dreamt up the idea of those matricula id's to have another brainstorm that results in him creating an army of imaginary Mexicans, all armed with the necessary documentation required to collect for him and his cronies, on both sides of the border, a pension paid for by US taxpayers.

87 posted on 12/14/2003 7:32:16 AM PST by ohmage
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To: GeronL
The only way to change things...

My fantasy is some day every eligible citizen will decide to take part in the peaceful revolutions that come around every two years and vote the bums out of office and the bureaucrats all take early retirement...

No more incumbents.

Anywhere.

88 posted on 12/14/2003 8:08:47 AM PST by ohmage
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To: ohmage
"...to our social security money..."

How does someone else's money, taken from their paychecks by the government, become YOUR Social Security money?

89 posted on 12/14/2003 11:20:25 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Gift Is To See The Trout.)
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To: ohmage
"I'm sure there are fine, wonderful citizens of Mexico, Luis, that lead exemplary lives. I'm just as sure they don't work in Mexico's government bureaucracy."

Incredibly ignorant, unfounded statement.

Bring that brush over to my house, I have the side of a barn that requires painting.

90 posted on 12/14/2003 11:21:55 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Gift Is To See The Trout.)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Incredibly ignorant, unfounded statement.

Maybe your right. After looking further into the subject of Mexican corruption I just might change that statement to "I'm just as sure they just don't work in Mexico's government bureaucracy."

And here's why, http://www.mexconnect.com

Perhaps Dr. Ilya Adler can help you see that your barn is in need of more work than a coat of paint.

91 posted on 12/14/2003 12:05:16 PM PST by ohmage
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To: Luis Gonzalez
How does someone else's money, taken from their paychecks by the government, become YOUR Social Security money?

Here's the complete statement without your elipses. Try reading it a second time to understand my meaning.

"That the SSA would be willing to give what amounts to the keys to our social security money vault to a foriegn government with a tradition steeped in corruption, incompetence and sheer criminality is beyond belief."

Hint: Regardless of who is paying into the US SSA, it is still our vault that is being accessed by a foriegn government known and recognized the world over as rooted in corruption and criminality.

92 posted on 12/14/2003 12:18:15 PM PST by ohmage
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To: ohmage
"That the SSA would be willing to give what amounts to the keys to our social security money vault to a foriegn government."

That's BS, we have the keys, and we decide who qualifies.

Now, I'll ask you again, how did their money become YOUR money?

93 posted on 12/14/2003 2:45:47 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Gift Is To See The Trout.)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
That's BS, we have the keys, and we decide who qualifies

Get a grip, Luis. Read the GAO report. Assimilate fact.

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d03993.pdf

Now, I'll ask you again, how did their money become YOUR money?

I am not compelled to answer a question based on your distorted insistence to take what I said out of context.

If that's all you got, I suggest you get started on that barn.

94 posted on 12/14/2003 5:48:41 PM PST by ohmage
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To: Forgiven_Sinner
There is a little bit of "the sky is falling" on this thread. Sure, such a decision (to pay Mexicans SS) would be an abomination.

If JUST a million Mexicans were paided $500 dollars a month each (half of a what a average ammount is) it will cost US taxpayers $6,000,000,000 billion dollars a year.

And that is just a low-ball figure, if 5 million Mexicans were paid $1000 a month each, it will cost us taxpayers $60,000,000 billion a year.

We cannot afford that and since the politicans and their useful idiots don't care, this country is heading straight into an armed revolution.

95 posted on 12/14/2003 6:03:19 PM PST by Paul C. Jesup
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To: Paul C. Jesup
...and if my bubbie had a schmekel she'd be my sadie.

The level of ignorance on this forum is rising by the hour.

Here's one more figure for you, if one gazillion Mexicans were paid one billion dollars a week, that would be one hundred thousand million megaprillions a year of taxpayer's money.

Idiots...

96 posted on 12/14/2003 8:33:54 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Gift Is To See The Trout.)
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To: ohmage
It's ignorant, and absurd to make a statement that ALL people working for the Mexican government are corrupt, then again, people like you make statements like that all the time.

All blacks are _____.

All Polacks are _____.

All Chinese are _____.

Fill in the blanks as you always do.

97 posted on 12/14/2003 8:36:48 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Gift Is To See The Trout.)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Notice the title of the thread: Social Security for Mexicans closer to reality (Millions of immigrants to collect benefits)

A million times, what payment per month, times 12 months equals the rough ammount per year it will cost taxpayers.

But I doubt someone like you even understands basic math.

98 posted on 12/14/2003 8:45:01 PM PST by Paul C. Jesup
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To: ohmage
Here's your statement:

"That the SSA would be willing to give what amounts to the keys to our social security money vault to a foreign government with a tradition steeped in corruption, incompetence and sheer criminality is beyond belief."

It's even more ignorant posted in its entirety.

What the hell is that giving the keys to the vault crap?

The only thing mentioned in the report you supplied a link to, is that the GAO wants some sort of system set in place to track recipients more efficiently in Mexico; you don't understand what you read!

And my question still stands...how did the money that these people pay into the system become "our money"?

It's their money!

Just like the money that I am "voluntarily" depositing into the SSA coffers is MY money, not OUR money.

99 posted on 12/14/2003 8:49:01 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Gift Is To See The Trout.)
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To: Paul C. Jesup
Figures, you get all the news you need from the headline.

Here's a heads up...whoever posted the article altered the headline.

Now, for a dose of reality:

"The cost of a totalization agreement with Mexico is highly uncertain. In March 2003, the Office of the Chief Actuary (OCACT) estimated that the cost of the Mexican agreement would be $78 million in the first year of the agreement and would grow to $650 million (in constant 2002 dollars) in 2050. SSA’s actuarial cost estimate assumes the initial number of newly eligible Mexican beneficiaries is equivalent to the 50,000 beneficiaries living in Mexico today and would grow sixfold over time.

The link was supplied by the other idiot who can't read.

Grow to $650 million by 2050?

Where are all those billions you "ciphered" for us Jethro?

It's YOUR math that sucks.

100 posted on 12/14/2003 9:12:32 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Gift Is To See The Trout.)
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