Miserable sinners that we are, we'd sooner reach for the whisky than venture a prayer

Daily Telegraph ^ | December 13, 2003 | Adam Nicolson

[Just another Joe]

Prayer does indeed work.

We have had miraculous, literally, healings at our church at times and I can merit nothing else but continued focused prayer to the almighty.

[Cincinatus' Wife]

But he isn't saying "modern" is better.

[witnesstothefall]

I believe he is implicitly. To the author, the whole notion of modernity precludes religion. One can safely presume that to any modernist, being anything other than modern is less than desirable.

Perhaps I'm putting too fine a point on it. Perhaps not.

[Cincinatus' Wife]

I could be wrong but I think he is saying he is uncomfortable with overt religion even though he recognizes its strength. He's a product of his time but he feels it is out of step.

[VOA]

bump

[witnesstothefall]

Yes, I agree that's what he's saying outwardly. I'm discussing his psychology, and its (IMO) underlying bias against religion, shared by so many in Europe, some consciously, others not.

[TEXOKIE]

Thank you so much for the ping! Very excellent article! The sad part is that so many of our brothers and sisters in this nation have been duped by the Lie. IMHO it is very true that the modern secularism is very much an overwhelming form of idolatry, as the author states.

The thing that gives me hope in the face of this is that God wrote His name on the inward parts of his Children and they can be reached by His grace. We are admonished to 'love one another'...and part of the instructions we have been given to fulfill that is to 'pray for one another.'

I also have great hope for this nation when I realize that God shows us in His scripture that the small archetypal "10 Righteous" in the city would be enough to spare the city. This is a point of the Law which we can use in our petitions to the Godhead! (Referring here to the story of Lot bargaining with God over the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah.)

It is my humble opinion that by God's grace, we HAVE the requisite "10 Righteous" performing their devotions across this nation both here on the forum and in every place of worship. It is these "10 Righteous" which have petitioned God to intercede in our many problems...many of them created by the followers of the Lie. It is the prayers and actions of these "10 Righteous" which have kept this nation free. De Toqueville said something like, "America is Great because she is Good. When she ceases to be Good, she will cease to be Great."

IMHO it is PRAYER which is the key to the goodness of our people.

[Cincinatus' Wife]

Great post!

[VOA]

Prayer, for most of us in this country, now seems, if anything, a little odd, if not embarrassing.

Too bad the writer didn't mention what one of Tony Blair's handlers said
when some reporter wanted to ask Blair about religious matters:
"We DON'T do religion!"
the handler tersely replied.

It will be interesting a hundred years from now when Iraqi history books recount
that two observant Christians (Blair and Dubya, along with a few good men and women)
actually saved the lives of maybe hundreds of thousands of Iraqis from
the murderous Saddam and his son Uday.

[Cincinatus' Wife]

French in midst of church-state squabble***Underscoring the complexity and sensitivity of the issue, the report said that "discreet" religious signs should be allowed, including small Christian medals or the Christian cross, the Jewish star of David or the Muslim hand of Fatima, the daughter of the prophet Mohammed, or small copies of the Quran.

The report is certain to intensify rather than quiet the increasingly shrill debate in France over the intrusion of religion into public institutions as the country struggles to retain the "republican" ideal of strict separation between church and state.

It highlights the challenges that secular France -- like much of Europe -- faces in coming to grips with Islam. The report charged, for example, that organized groups were testing the secular French state by demands on public services in the name of religion and pressuring Muslims to identify first with their faith and then with their citizenship.

The report also identified issues much broader than the veil.

Among other problems identified in French society were:

·The refusal by some Muslim women to be treated by male doctors.

·Hostility in some schools toward the teaching of the Holocaust.

·Anti-Semitic sentiment among alienated Muslim youth.

·Difficulty in burying the dead according to different religious traditions.

·De facto job discrimination against candidates of foreign origin or foreign parentage. ***

[baseballmom]

I don't know - re-reading this, my take is, he could be lamenting the "modernity" of prayer being an embarrassment.

Has the pendulum swung far enough left? I hope so.

From one of the Presidential Prayer Warriors.
Baseballmom

[baseballmom]

My sympathies to you on the loss of your brother. Prayers up.

[Ahban]

May God bless Dave, and his brother too!

[TEXOKIE]

Thanks for the kind words, CW. I really appreciate the articles you post which get the think-juices flowing!

[TEXOKIE]

Excellent points, well stated in your post 29, VOA.

[gcruse]

Isn't mass prayer, or any prayer for that matter, based on the notion that God might not do the right thing the first time without our remonstrations? That God can be made to change his mind? This doesn't fit too well with the image of a God whose pencils have no erasers.

[DannyTN]

"Isn't mass prayer, or any prayer for that matter, based on the notion that God might not do the right thing the first time without our remonstrations? That God can be made to change his mind? This doesn't fit too well with the image of a God whose pencils have no erasers."

No. First of all, scripture encourages us to pray together. "Where two or more of you are gathered in my name there I am also". Does that mean God is not there when it's only one of us? Of course not, but the implication is that corporal prayer has more power. Why? Because God want the body of Christ to be as one. He wants believers on the same wave length. He wants us to learn to be concerned about the needs of others as opposed to be self-centered. Therefore we are taught to pray together and for each other's needs.

God encourages us to pray together for our benefit. Just like He invites us to share in His work. Does He really need us to tell anyone about Jesus. Jesus said that if men didn't praise Him the very rocks would cry out! No God doesn't need us to work for Him. But He invites us to do so, because we grow by doing so.

Does that mean that the world would be the same whether Christians did anything or not. No, it would not be the same. Because God has chosen to rely at least in part on us. Therefore what we do in this world does make a big difference.

Remember man was given dominion over the earth. So even though God works directly, God still uses man to accomplish many of His purposes. He doesn't have to. He could do it Himself. He chooses to. And that is in his infinite wisdom, the right thing.

[gcruse]

Nice soliliquoy, but the questions posed were ignored.

Is God capable of doing the wrong thing such that prayer can redirect his course?

If God can change his mind, was he wrong the first time?

[Cboldt]

Short book, now out of print, worth finding and reading ...

James Burnham, "Suicide of the West"

Makes esentially that differentiation. Conservatives acknowledge evil exists, that humans are not able to eradicate "it." "It" being all sorts of human condition that don't meet with "our" notion of proper.

Personally, as a conservative Christian, the essay made some points that I hadn't previously considered or acknowledged.

[DannyTN]

"Is God capable of doing the wrong thing such that prayer can redirect his course? " Prayer can change His course. For example had Ninevah not repented they would have indeed been destroyed like Sodom and Gemorrah was. But that is not to say that God is capable of doing the wrong thing. He is not. There is no sin and no evil in Him. But that doesn't mean that there is only one right option available to Him. There may be many options. In the story of Ninevah the prophet Jonah didn't won't to go to Ninevah, because Ninevah was renown for it's wickedness and Jonah felt that Ninevah didn't deserve God's mercy. Would God have been right to destroy Ninevah without sending Jonah? I can't say Ninevah didn't deserve what was coming, so how could it be wrong? That God loved them so much that He sent Jonah, doesn't mean that was the only course available to Him. He didn't owe them mercy.

"If God can change his mind, was he wrong the first time? "

Again, I think the illustrations just provided, say no. There is not one and only one right course that God can choose. And scripture does record God changing His mind as the result of prayer.