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Giving Thomas Jefferson the Business: The Jefferson-Hemings Hoax
A Different Drummer/Middle American News ^ | December, 2003 | Nicholas Stix

Posted on 12/16/2003 11:18:44 AM PST by mrustow

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To: mrustow
If libs always tell fibs....what good are they???
101 posted on 12/16/2003 1:46:16 PM PST by The Raven
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To: cyborg
Didn't Benjamin Franklin have a child in illegitimacy too?

"A" child? :)

102 posted on 12/16/2003 1:47:44 PM PST by lepton
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To: lepton
Just 'A' child... I hope. I wasn't there...LOL I need to stop these all day FReepings.
103 posted on 12/16/2003 1:49:42 PM PST by cyborg
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To: Puppage
Yeah, I tend to agree with you.

How do you know what he's read in the past?

104 posted on 12/16/2003 1:50:18 PM PST by lepton
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To: lepton
I've read things from credible resources, and since there's no definitive conclusion that he isn't, I tend to believe he is. That does not make him any less a president. My favorite president happens to be Ron Reagan BTW. I was more disappointed about Rudy Giuliani openly waving his adulterous girlfriend in front of his son, than thinking about Jefferson.
105 posted on 12/16/2003 1:54:48 PM PST by cyborg
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To: mrustow
Sobering.

Lies, damned liars, and liberals!

(Not much difference.)
106 posted on 12/16/2003 1:55:09 PM PST by Robert A. Cook, PE (I can only support FR by donating monthly, but ABBCNNBCBS continue to lie every day!)
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To: tcuoohjohn
I guess they can find some strained method to question the DNA evidence

Or have some idea what the DNA evidence actually says: Simply that some male member of the general Jefferson family is an ancestor of at least some of the Hemmings descendants.

Etymology can help you.

107 posted on 12/16/2003 1:56:06 PM PST by lepton
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To: John Robertson
Yes, the side of the race dissemblers and hustlers does make him less of a great man--because attached to the "fact" of his fathering the kids with Hemmings is a whole train car of baggage: he was a hypocrite, a racist, a liar, and that therefore makes him, and his part in founding the country, less legitimate--less great.

No, both sides are premising their arguments on the belief that if Jefferson did father children on his slave he was a hypocrite and a racist.
I reject that.
Whether or not he had a black concubine, he was living an honest and moral life within the mores of the time and place.
He cannot be judged by a standard that was completely unknown during his life.

Did he deny it during his lifetime? Yes.
If what he said was untrue, he was acting as a gentleman to protect his privacy and dignity. Calling that a lie is simplistic.

So9

108 posted on 12/16/2003 1:56:54 PM PST by Servant of the 9 (Think of it as Evolution In Action)
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To: lepton
How do you know what he's read in the past?

Ah, that's cute.

I agree with his view on the subject based on what I HAVE read, as well. His reading, my reading....same conclusion, etc.

109 posted on 12/16/2003 1:58:15 PM PST by Puppage (You may disagree with what I have to say, but I will defend to your death my right to say it)
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To: Servant of the 9
I agree that we can't judge these people to today's standards. Anyone living that kind of lifestyle now should know better. Any man leading a life of bastardry with the other woman (no matter what race/ethnicity is involved) is condemning that child to a life of stigma and sloppy seconds affection. If the child makes it, it will inspite of the man and woman's lust for sex over having a real family.
110 posted on 12/16/2003 2:00:45 PM PST by cyborg
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To: TomServo
In the News/Activism forum, on a thread titled Giving Thomas Jefferson the Business: The Jefferson-Hemings Hoax, TomServo wrote: Ping! I believe you had a few links on this junk.

Here you go...

Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings

An article in the November 5, 1998, edition of Nature provides DNA evidence that Thomas Jefferson or some other male Jefferson such as Randolph, the brother of Thomas, could have been the father of one of the sons of Sally Hemings, who was a slave at Jefferson's Monticello. The technique relies on the fact that the human Y-chromosome is handed down directly from father to son and that all paternally related males will have the same Y-chromosome. Although Thomas Jefferson did not have any sons who survived to produce children, his father's brother, Field Jefferson, did have sons and it has been possible to locate 5 descendants of Field Jefferson who are in a direct male-line of descent. Thus, these individuals (descendants of Field Jefferson) should have the same Y-chromosome DNA as the Y-chromosome DNA of Thomas Jefferson and any male-line descendant of his.
The male-line descendants of two of Sally Hemmings sons were located and their Y-chromosome DNA was examined for comparison to the Y-chromosome DNA of Field Jefferson's descendants. The DNA from the five male-line descendants of Thomas Woodson, oldest son of Sally Hemings, did not match the Jefferson DNA. In fact, one of Woodson's descendants did not match well with the other four. However, the DNA from the one descendant of Eston Hemings, youngest son of Sally Hemings, did match the Jefferson DNA.
This lends credence to the supposition that Thomas Jefferson may have been the father of Eston Hemings. However, historian Williard S. Randall, notes, "There were 25 men within 20 miles of Monticello who were all Jeffersons and had the same Y chromosome. And 23 of them were younger than Jefferson, who was 65 years old when Eston was conceived." Randall, wrote a 1993 biography of Jefferson, titled, Thomas Jefferson: A Life. More detailed information is available. Three different authors provide some perspective on Jefferson and Hemings in The Nation. Finally, the The Jefferson-Hemings Scholars Commission concluded that Randolph Jefferson, Thomas' brother, was more likely to have fathered Eston Hemings.

Other Sites of Interest


This document maintained by Robert J. Huskey Last updated on February 25, 2003.

LINK

There's more...

Y Chromosome DNA Data on Jefferson and Hemings

Defining the Possible Link Between Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings:
Lineages and DNA Markers

In order to answer the question of whether or not Thomas Jefferson could have been the father of any of Sally Hemings' sons it is necessary to compare the Y-chromosome DNA from the living male-line descendants of Jefferson and Hemmings. Is has been possible to locate male-line descendants of two of Sally Hemings' sons, Thomas Woodson (the oldest) and Eston Hemings the (youngest), but not Madison Hemings whose male-line descendants did not survive the Civil War. Shown in the figure to the right is the lineage of the one male-line descendant (H21) of Eston Hemmings and the five male-line descendants (W55, W56, W69, W70, and W61) of Thomas Woodson whose DNA was analyzed as part of the study.
Furthermore, Thomas Jefferson did not have a son survive to reproduce so it was necessary to locate the male-line descendants of Thomas Jefferson's paternal uncle, Field Jefferson. Five such descendants (J41, J42, J47, J49, and J50) were located and their DNA was analyzed.
It was also possible to locate three male-line descendants (C27, C29, and C31) of Samuel and Peter Carr -- the sons of Thomas Jefferson's sister -- whom some consider as the possible fathers of Sally Hemings' children.
In the table below are the results of an examination of the Y-chromosome DNA of the 14 male-line descendants described above. Where an individual differs from the other members of his cohort, the allele difference is shown in bold face. The five descendants of Field Jefferson (and proxies for Thomas Jefferson) have identical Y-chromosome DNA alleles except for one microsatellite DNA from J50. This difference is most reasonably accounted for by assuming that a mutation occured.
The lone descendant of Eston Hemings has the same set of Y-chromosome DNA alleles as the descendants of Field Jefferson. This supports the claim that Thomas Jefferson could have been the father of Eston Hemings although it does not prove it since the father could have been any male who had the same Y-chromosome as Thomas Jefferson and was in the immediate vicinity of Sally Hemings nine months before the birth of Eston Hemings. In fact, historical evidence implicates Randolph Jefferson, Thomas' brother, as the more likely father of Eston Hemings. The Carr descendants have similar DNA among themselves but are clearly different from either the Jefferson or Hemings descendants.
Four of the descendants of Thomas Woodson are quite similar among themselves but different from Jefferson and Hemings although they do have similarities to the descendants of the Carr line. One of the Woodson descendants is quite different from all of the other individuals which suggests that one of the genetic ancestors was not in the direct line from Thomas Woodson.

Family Pedigree
Member
Bi Allelic Markers Microsatellite STR Mini Satellite MSY1

Jefferson J41 0000001 15,12,4,11,3,9,11,10,15,13,7 (3)5, (1)14, (3)32, (4)16
J42 0000001 15,12,4,11,3,9,11,10,15,13,7 (3)5, (1)14, (3)32, (4)16
J47 0000001 15,12,4,11,3,9,11,10,15,13,7 (3)5, (1)14, (3)32, (4)16
J49 0000001 15,12,4,11,3,9,11,10,15,13,7 (3)5, (1)14, (3)32, (4)16
J50 0000001 15,12,4,11,3,9,11,10,16,13,7 (3)5, (1)14, (3)32, (4)16

Hemings H21 0000001 15,12,4,11,3,9,11,10,15,13,7 (3)5, (1)14, (3)32, (4)16

Carr C27 0000011 14,12,5,12,3,10,11,10,13,13,7 (1)17, (3)36, (4)21
C29 0000011 14,12,5,11,3,10,11,10,13,13,7 (1)17, (3)37, (4)21
C31 0000011 14,12,5,12,3,10,11,10,13,13,7 (1)17, (3)36, (4)21

Woodson W55 0000011 14,12,5,11,3,10,11,13,13,13,7 (1)16, (3)27, (4)21
W56 0000011 14,12,5,11,3,10,11,13,13,13,7 (1)16, (3)27, (4)21
W69 0000011 14,12,5,11,3,10,11,13,13,13,7 (1)16, (3)27, (4)21
W70 1110001 17,12,6,11,3,11,8,10,11,14,6 (0)1, (3a)3, (1a)11,
(3a)30, (4a)14, (4)2
W61 0000011 14,12,5,11,3,10,11,13,13,13,7 (1)16, (3)28, (4)20

Other Sites of Interest


This document maintained by Robert J. Huskey Last updated on February 25, 2003.

LINK

111 posted on 12/16/2003 2:04:06 PM PST by Sabertooth
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To: LWalk18
As you no doubt know, the DNA tests only excluded the Carrs as Easton Hemmings' father. And Woodson was clearly not fathered by any Jefferson. There were several Jeffersons who were present during the times Easton was concieved. There is also no evidence that Hemmings children all had the same father. The descendents of her other son's line refuse to permit DNA testing.

All in all, case not proven. And still unlikely.

112 posted on 12/16/2003 2:05:13 PM PST by CatoRenasci (Ceterum Censeo [Gallia][Germania][Arabia] Esse Delendam --- Select One or More as needed)
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To: tcuoohjohn
First a disclaimer. I am a descendant of Field Jefferson, the uncle whose descendants provided the DNA used to test the paternity.

I fully support the findings that Eston Hemmings is a Jefferson descendanty, and thereby, my cousin. We have known for decades that such misogyny occurred and was common among white slave owners and their slaves. We now know for certain that the Jefferson family engaged in this practice. Recent revelations about Senator Thurmond confirm that the practice did not end with emancipation.

We must also accept that Thomas Jefferson must be counted among the several potential candidates. Statistically, he must stand as the favored candidate by virtue of opportunity and circumstance. But, since conception requires but one encounter, a statistical case is hardly appropriate. So we are left with several candidates who also had at least some opportunity to produce this offspring. The case would be much stronger if other descendants proved to be Jefferson progeny, but so far only Eston's descendants have been confirmed. There are other possible lines of research, but descendants have thus far declined to cooperate.

I do not question the research premise. It was a legimate line of questioning from both a technical and historical perspective and one well worth doing. My objection is to the conclusion that so many so quickly embraced. Any who have taken the position that this conclusion is not supported by the facts have been labeled racist, ignorant, and worse. Its not healthy these days to refute the dogmatic views of the Academy.

You need to read the Blue Ribbon Commission report before you again say that conclusions are speculation devoid of evidence. I certainly do not consider their work to be strained and tortured - that characterization would better fit the views of the other side.
113 posted on 12/16/2003 2:07:31 PM PST by centurion316
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To: mrustow
Great post, thanks!

There is never any substitute for the truth.
114 posted on 12/16/2003 2:11:02 PM PST by FormerLib
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To: cyborg
"Sally Hemmings was half white, the half sister of his wife. She probably looked A LOT like his dead wife."

Bingo. You just nailed the most crucial piece of circumstantial evidence, completely omitted by the above hagiography.

Jefferson, as I recall, was deeply grieved by his wife's untimely death. Her half-sister was, by all accounts, a dead-ringer, younger, and a slave to boot (the easier to keep the matter quiet.) Does anyone think Jefferson was celibate for the rest of his life after his wife's death?

Her kids (some anyway) were reputedly red haired and freckle-faced. I admit that either Jefferson or his brother could have been the fathers. Based on the above,my dime is on Jefferson. After all, she was HIS slave, not his brother's, right?
115 posted on 12/16/2003 2:14:56 PM PST by Al Simmons
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To: centurion316
We have known for decades that such misogyny occurred and was common among white slave owners and their slaves. We now know for certain that the Jefferson family engaged in this practice. Recent revelations about Senator Thurmond confirm that the practice did not end with emancipation.

Nit-pick alert: Emancipation, by definition, ended the practice.

116 posted on 12/16/2003 2:17:30 PM PST by lepton
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To: Al Simmons
That's why I think it was him. Of course people are welcomed to disagree with me but as you say, she was his slave not his brother's slave.
117 posted on 12/16/2003 2:18:02 PM PST by cyborg
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To: LWalk18
In order to determine the father, you must look to see what Jefferson Y-chromosone holder was there at the time of each Hemings child conception- so far there is only one who was there each time- Thomas Jefferson.

You are making a serious error in logic here. We only have evidence for one of Sally Hemmings children, Eston. We do not know the father of the others, except that a Jefferson did not father Thomas Woodson. Since two of the children had different fathers, how do you conclude that the others had the same father?

118 posted on 12/16/2003 2:20:34 PM PST by centurion316
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To: lepton
You have struck a fair blow, and are awarded a point, although I had intended to refer to exercises between the sheets, the name for which activity escapes me.
119 posted on 12/16/2003 2:28:45 PM PST by centurion316
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To: centurion316
Excellent point. For my money, absent further testing of the William Hemmings line, the Carr nephews are the most likely candidates for the known children other than Easton, based on all of the evidence avaiable. As to Easton, the matter is less clear, but there are several possiblities besides Thomas: Randolph was invited to come when Eason was conceived, and some of his sons may have been present.

Of course there is also Randolph's proclivity for fraternizing with the slaves:

Isaac Jefferson, in his "Memoirs of a Monticello Slave," as dictated to Charles Campbell, made the following statement:

"Old Master's brother, Mass Randall[sic], was a mighty simple man: used to come out among black people, play the fiddle and dance half the night; hadn't much more sense than Isaac." (JB p 22)

My sympathies are with your family as you deal with both the reality of some connection and the calumny heaped upon your most distinguished family member.

120 posted on 12/16/2003 2:34:05 PM PST by CatoRenasci (Ceterum Censeo [Gallia][Germania][Arabia] Esse Delendam --- Select One or More as needed)
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To: CatoRenasci
My sympathies are with your family as you deal with both the reality of some connection and the calumny heaped upon your most distinguished family member.

Thanks. I welcome all my cousins, and accept that our famous relation must endure these sorts of attacks. I attempt in some feeble way to defend him where possible, as well as to recognize that one of my relations was up to no good, whether Thomas, Randolph or other of that ilk. The greater tragedy is that the Jefferson clan were inclined to pass on legacies that were larger in liabilities and debts than in tangible assets.

121 posted on 12/16/2003 2:48:59 PM PST by centurion316
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To: centurion316
According to the webpage I posted earlier (post 100, I think), there is no evidence that Woodson was Sally Hemmings child. That doesn't mean he wasn't. Here's another webpage link:

http://www.monticello.org/plantation/hemingscontro/appendixh.html
122 posted on 12/16/2003 2:49:07 PM PST by petitfour
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To: centurion316
Let me begin by saying that I am not completely convinced that Thomas Jefferson was the father of Sally Hemings' children- I would say that I am 60/40 towards believing that he was. I responded to this thread because the author was, IMO, overly certain that he was not the father, and I tend to cringe when I see either 100% yes or no- we simply cannot be sure.

I am assuming that all of Sally's children had the same father, true (I will get to Woodson in a moment), simply because almost all accounts assume she did (or maybe two at most). Certainly, those who sought to clear Jefferson would have pointed out that she slept around if she did- she was a black woman and a slave, and if it were true it would been in their favor to do so. Also, it seems to me that she would have had more children if she was with lots of men- she had, if I recall, six in a period of eighteen years. And again, she only got pregnant when Jefferson was around, despite the fact that during this time he was hardly at Monticello as Sec of State, VP, and President. Now it is possible that she was pregnant more times and suffered miscarriages- but it seems funny to me that babies who made to birth were all conceived while Jefferson was around. In my opinion, Jefferson (Thomas or Randolph or someone else) who she was with was probably the only man that fathered the children, but there is no definite proof. As for Woodson, when I did research on this topic for a school paper sometimes before the DNA results, I read about Woodson. We know that Jefferson fathered Woodson but we assume that Sally mothered Woodson. In fact, there is no evidence of a slave in Thomas Woodson (or Hemings) at Monticello born in 1790. Jefferson kept excellent records on his slaves (which how we know when the other Hemings were born) in his Farm Book, yet he is not in the book. In addition, Madison Heming's account indicates that the baby Sally was carrying upon her arrival in Virginia from France died at birth or soon after. So there is a serious question, IMO whether Woodson is Sally's son.

Unfortunately, we cannot test the other children, since the test requires a unbroken line of Y-chromosomes. Of the five children commonly discussed, Woodson, I already talked about, Beverly and Harriet (as a daughter, naturally there is no Y-chromosome to test) passed for white as adult so their descendent believe themselves to be white and probably have no clue about being a decendent of a black slave. Madison lived as a black person, but his Y-chromosome line was extinguished generations ago. (Although, as the article points out, they still could test the body of his son). Eston also passed for white, but the Jefferson/Hemings story remained in their family so they were easy to find.

Sorry for the long post, I just love history and I am only my vacation from law school, so forgive me. The whole topics is interesting to us, because it is an historical mystery and because to 21th century society, it contains two of the major obsessions of our time- race and sex. But certainly true or untrue it could never diminish the accomplishments of Thomas Jefferson- those are far too important and stand the test of time, long after people stop caring about who he slept with.

123 posted on 12/16/2003 2:56:49 PM PST by LWalk18
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To: centurion316
miscegenation
124 posted on 12/16/2003 3:03:00 PM PST by monkey
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To: LWalk18
We know that Jefferson fathered Woodson

Not true. DNA testing showed Woodson was conclusively NOT fathered by any Jefferson male.

There is a William B Hemings, who died in 1910, who could be exhumed and DNA probably obtained (the Jefferson family asked it be done), but the Hemings descendents have said "no."

There is no more reason to believe Sally Hemings had children by one man only than there is to believe she had children by many men. The Carrs confessed to fathering some of the children, and there is contemporary evidence (a former slave's memoir) that Randolph was busy cavorting with the slaves. He was something of a ne'er-do-well in any event. What is more natural and plausable after an evening dancing and fiddling in the cabins than to bed a comely wench? Far more natural and plausable than sneaking down (or sneaker her up to the house) after a formal dinner family and distinguished visitors from abroad. You are correct that we cannot be completely certain, but it seems to me Randolph, who was probably present when Sally conceived Eston, is a far more likely candidate than Thomas.

125 posted on 12/16/2003 3:10:26 PM PST by CatoRenasci (Ceterum Censeo [Gallia][Germania][Arabia] Esse Delendam --- Select One or More as needed)
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To: CatoRenasci
I'm sorry...I am a bad typist and I meant of course he DID NOT father Woodson. Is William Hemings's Madison's son? Yes, he would be helpful to test him as well. I just argue that she would have been with men closer to the plantation, especially if she was pretty- her mother Betty was also reputed to be beautiful, and she had fourteen children- literally one every other year with four different men.

Far more natural and plausable than sneaking down (or sneaker her up to the house) after a formal dinner family and distinguished visitors from abroad.

Wasn't Sally a house slave, if I recall? Most of the Hemings were house slaves.

126 posted on 12/16/2003 3:18:57 PM PST by LWalk18
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To: centurion316
I am very supicious of your post. The primary reason is your use of the word misogny (Of or characterized by a hatred of women.) for miscegenation( The interbreeding of different races or of persons of different racial backgrounds.) Pardon my suspicion, but one intimately familiar with the issue as you say you are, would be unlikely to make that mistake.

You post while true in all respects fails to give due weight to the the probability that Jefferson is the father of Hemming's child. As you say conception can occur from when circumstance. It also true that the statistical likelyhood increases dramatically with multiple efforts.

If you compare the number of possible opportunites of other genetic candidates with those of Jefferson the statistical probabilities of Jefferson being the father of Hemmings child are dramatically larger. It isn't ultimately definitive But if you had to bet the deed to your home which is the strongest probability?..Jefferson..by far.
127 posted on 12/16/2003 3:49:13 PM PST by tcuoohjohn (Follow The Money)
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To: Servant of the 9
Does it really matter?
I don't see this as particularly slanderous, nor did the acusations seem to have hurt him during his lifetime. I don't think the revelations that were acknowledged true today about Strom Thurmans 'love child' are going to damage his reputation.
Whether we are speaking of Thurman or Jefferson, it is a non-issue.
Thomas Jefferson was a radical in every sense of the word. It was not until the 20th Century that norms had changed enough that even the Democrat Party wanted to claim him as one of their own.

No one is gonna prove any of this either way.

It's some kind of weird control thing, as in controlling the writing of American history. Also, Jeffeson was opposed to race-mixing, and so, they want to paint him as a hypocrite. Last, and weirdest of all, they think they can somehow claim "community property" for the descendants of Jefferson's slaves for everything he accomplished.

128 posted on 12/16/2003 4:31:17 PM PST by mrustow
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To: Servant of the 9
No one is gonna prove any of this either way.

Actually, the article would appear to disprove many of the claims made by the Hemings Party.

129 posted on 12/16/2003 4:32:43 PM PST by mrustow
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To: cyborg
There's a dispute as to whether Jefferson's wife and Sally Hemings were half-sisters, but I'm not competent to do it justice. As for why people should have a problem with all of this, I can't rationally answer that question, but I took a stab at the irrational part, in #128.
130 posted on 12/16/2003 4:36:06 PM PST by mrustow
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To: Puppage
The DNA testing that was performed proved that "A" Jefferson was the father.Not necessarily Thomas Jefferson. That confirmation is lost to history.

Bingo!

131 posted on 12/16/2003 4:36:58 PM PST by mrustow
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To: mrustow
I agree with you. I don't know what people serve to gain by proving Thomas Jefferson's paternity. Exactly how is this supposed to change people's lives? I think the motivation behind the Thurmond story is the same here. It's all about making these men hypocrites. They are to me, but my chief aim for living isn't overturning America and her beloved foundations.

Does this now mean anything and everything the descendants of Jefferson did are going to be included in black history month? Is Jefferson?
132 posted on 12/16/2003 4:42:54 PM PST by cyborg
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To: CatoRenasci
The John Adams bio was wonderful and did talk about Hemmings. Abigail apparently read the Calander accusations and said she thought all the slave owning southerners took liberties with slave women. After reading the Adams bio, I got a dislike of Jefferson. Adams seemed like a better man.
133 posted on 12/16/2003 4:45:10 PM PST by cajungirl (no)
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To: cyborg
a very educated, mulatto nanny

Those who knew her said she was about 12 years old mentally and emotionally.

134 posted on 12/16/2003 4:50:57 PM PST by Trickyguy
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To: tcuoohjohn
I plead guilty to the misuse of words, as others have already pointed out. Laziness, ignorance, public school education, and the deliterious effects of Jack Daniels are my only excuses. I may be considered unlikely to make that mistake, but make it I did and did so my falling victim to the MS Word Spellchecker trap. Oh, what will my English teachers say?

Thomas Jefferson is no doubt among those who comprise the set of individuals were genetically capable of fathering Eston Hemings. The evidence is clear in that regard. But, that is not the contention of the media and much of the academic community. They have declared that Jefferson was, without doubt, the father, case closed. This is not science, nor is it history. Of course, there's no story, and no agenda if it turns out to be Randolph or another lesser known Jefferson. That's my point, and I'm sticking to it, my limited proficiency with the English language notwithstanding.
135 posted on 12/16/2003 4:52:02 PM PST by centurion316
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To: Trickyguy
Not from accounts that I read. Depends on who is doing the talking.
136 posted on 12/16/2003 4:56:08 PM PST by cyborg
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To: cajungirl
Abigail apparently read the Calander accusations and said she thought all the slave owning southerners took liberties with slave women.

Not much is spoken in our history books on the significance of miscegeny in maintaining slavery. Wherever men and women mix, sex often becomes an unspoken, undocumented, but overriding factor. Was there any doubt what the purpose of a light-skinned, young female slave would be on any plantation?

No one ever speaks of it, but I think sex is also a large part of what attracts men to radical Islam. Women have no rights. Men can marry four women at a time. A man can escape a rape charge simply by saying the sex was consensual.

137 posted on 12/16/2003 5:14:24 PM PST by Toskrin
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To: Toskrin
A young mulatto female slave fetched among the highest prices at auctions and between plantations. Not only for being in the house, but I suppose better to be sexing someone that was closer to onself and easy on the eyes.

About the appeal of islam, yes absolutely. I agree with you. People are attracted to religions that give them license for their vice.
138 posted on 12/16/2003 5:21:26 PM PST by cyborg
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To: mrustow; elbucko
...liberal historians Joseph Ellis and Eric Lander, sought to exploit the hoax, to rescue the authors’ sexually compromised hero, Bill Clinton.

Eric Lander is not a "liberal historian". He is a research scientist who is head of the Whitehead Institute at MIT, which does cutting-edge research on DNA. Eric Lander is not trying to "rescue" Bill Clinton.

More importantly, this article claims that there are up to 25 persons from the Jefferson family who could have fathered Sally Hemming's children. Jefferson only had one brother who lived and no sons. So any other man with the same Y chromosome would have to come from a more distant branch of the family. But how would such a person have contact with Sally Hemmings over a period of many years? No one has given a plausible explanation of this. Thus there is actually only one other person other than Jefferson who could have fathered the children, his brother Randolph. But is has been shown that the dates when all these children were conceived coincides with dates when Thomas Jefferson had access to Sally Hemmings.

Given the DNA evidence, which should not be taken too far, but is nevertheless irrefutable, a lot of the arguments in this article are irrelevant.

139 posted on 12/16/2003 5:25:53 PM PST by wideminded
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To: centurion316
Now I am even more suspicious. As any descendant of Thomas Jefferson and a Virginian would know, there are no deleterious effects of Jack Daniels save mixing imbibing God's libation and the operation of a motorcar. In fact, I have found that several healthy drams of Jack Daniels tends to improve ones spelling, provides a singular grace to one's prose, and I suspect, improves one singing skills.

Be that as it may however, time to grip the old toro by the horns here. Do you agree that, on balance, that Thomas Jefferson is most likely to be the father of one or more of Sally Hemmings children?... though it is a diffcult task could you apply some subjective percentage likelyhood that Thomas Jefferson was the father of one of Hemming's children?...I'll be bold here....I would say it is 80-90% likely that Jefferson was the father of at least one of Hemming's children.
140 posted on 12/16/2003 5:37:47 PM PST by tcuoohjohn (Follow The Money)
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To: cyborg
People are attracted to religions that give them license for their vice.

And sex is the one universal vice of men.

141 posted on 12/16/2003 6:07:38 PM PST by Toskrin
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To: Toskrin
YES
142 posted on 12/16/2003 6:08:14 PM PST by cyborg
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To: tcuoohjohn
Jack Daniels, in my personal experience, has a decidedly positive effect on my singing abilities; and, has likewise improved my lucidity of thought on any selected topic. It has, however, failed most miserably to improve my spelling or my choice of words, synatax, and grammar. Go figure.

I will not concede the point. On balance, I believe that the evidence points towards Randolph Jefferson, or one of his sons. Thomas Jefferson would, therefore, rank somewhere under 50% in probability. Given the number of candidates, this might reasonably rank him in first place, with a plurality, but certainly well short of the high probability that you would wish to assign. This assessment stands in stark contrast to those who wish us to believe that there should be no debate, the issue having been decisively and finally concluded, in their opinions. I do not trust these people. I believe them to have sinister motives, and to have distorted the available evidence to suit their preconceived notions. This behavior is, unfortunately, not limited to this issue, but has become widespread.

Of course frauds and syncophants have practiced their craft throughout the course of historical accounting. But it does seem to me to have taken on a strident tone of late.
143 posted on 12/16/2003 7:13:16 PM PST by centurion316
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To: wideminded
More importantly, this article claims that there are up to 25 persons from the Jefferson family who could have fathered Sally Hemming's children. Jefferson only had one brother who lived and no sons. So any other man with the same Y chromosome would have to come from a more distant branch of the family.

You are assuming that we are talking about information from Sally Hemings' actual children. The Jefferson DNA samples all came from descendants of Jeffersons's paternal uncle Field Jefferson; the Hemings samples came from male descendants of Hemings generations removed from her children. So, actually, as one commentator pointed out about three years ago (in Chronicles magazine), there are not 25 possible candidates, but hundreds, not all of them white.

What that means is that there did not have to be ANY sexual connection between Sally Hemings and ANY Jefferson male, in order for some of her distant descendants to show Jefferson male DNA.

But how would such a person have contact with Sally Hemmings over a period of many years? No one has given a plausible explanation of this.

No such explanation is necessary. Your problem derives from your assumption that the hoax is true. They have never proven their case. For one example, the Hemings Party has always insisted that Thomas Woodson was her first child, conceived in Paris. Woodson was not the child of any Jefferson male. And reading the Hemings Party's claims in light of the DNA evidence, she was not monogamous (since they insist that Woodson was her child, which would mean that if there is anything to their claims, Hemings would have had to have at least one non-Jefferson lover). But then, having taken the trouble to read the article, you already knew that.

Thus there is actually only one other person other than Jefferson who could have fathered the children, his brother Randolph. But is has been shown that the dates when all these children were conceived coincides with dates when Thomas Jefferson had access to Sally Hemmings.

Not true. The claims are that Jefferson was at his estate when Hemings was impregnated. But there is no knowledge as to HER whereabouts, at the times she was impregnated. And not only did Jefferson's brother show up at Monticello at all of the times that Thomas was there, and regularly carouse with the slaves, but Randolph stopped spending time in the slave quarters at the same time that Sally stopped having children (because the widower Randolph had remarried). And eight different Jefferson males lived near Monticello.

Given the DNA evidence, which should not be taken too far, but is nevertheless irrefutable, a lot of the arguments in this article are irrelevant.

The only DNA evidence that even approaches irrefutability, is the evidence that Thomas Woodson was NOT the son of any Jefferson male. No DNA evidence has shown that Thomas Jefferson was the father of ANY of Sally Hemings' children.

144 posted on 12/16/2003 8:52:17 PM PST by mrustow
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To: mrustow
The letter actually said, "His [Jefferson's] apartments had no private entrance not perfectly accessible and visible to all the household. No female domestic ever entered his chambers except at hours when he was known not to be there and none could have entered without being exposed to the public gaze."

In Prof. Gordon-Reed's hands, the second sentence changed, as if by magic, to "No female domestic ever entered his chambers except at hours when he was known not to be in the public gaze."

Gordon-Reed's changes turned the letter's meaning on its head, supporting claims that Jefferson could have had secret trysts with Hemings. Either Gordon-Reed committed one of the most dramatic copying errors in the annals of academia, or one of the most egregious acts of academic fraud of the past generation.

Ironically, it was Prof. Gordon-Reed, who politely, promptly, directed me to the Jefferson Library, where I obtained a copy of the original Coolidge letter. After I e-mailed her three times about the discrepancy, Prof. Gordon-Reed finally responded, "As to the discrepancy, there was an error in transcription in my book. It was corrected for future printings."

Worth repeating. Thanks for the excellent research.

145 posted on 12/16/2003 9:11:30 PM PST by Victoria Delsoul (Freedom isn't won by soundbites but by the unyielding determination and sacrifice given in its cause)
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To: mrustow
Woodson was not the child of any Jefferson male.

Actually he could have been the child of Jefferson himself. You claim that cases of mis-identified paternity may have occurred among Sally Hemmings descendants. If you claim that a Jefferson Y-chromosome somehow entered into the putative line from Sally Hemmings in later generations, don't you have to allow that it could have left as well?

since they insist that Woodson was her child, which would mean that if there is anything to their claims, Hemings would have had to have at least one non-Jefferson lover). But then, having taken the trouble to read the article, you already knew that.

I admit that the first time I saw the article you posted, I did not read it extremely carefully past a certain point. This is why:
1. The identification of Eric Lander as a "liberal historian" caused me to severely downgrade my opinion of the scholarship of the authors. Lander is an extremely well-known scientist and is someone I have dealt with personally in the past. He clearly is a brilliant guy and not someone who is known for his politics.
2. The article makes the a priori assumption that saying that Jefferson may have fathered a child by a slave is merely an attempt to degrade the achievements of Jefferson. I don't think it is necessary to look at it that way. We already know that Jefferson owned slaves despite being the author of the phrase "all men are created equal" and having considered the justice of abolition. We already know that he was a complicated person, at once a very great man and a hypocrite.
3. The article takes a somewhat racist tone at certain points and overstates the possible political motives of people who have believed in the Jefferson-Hemmings link. "The Jefferson-Hemings hoaxers seek to steal America’s history, and replace it with a counterfeit version, in order to oppress America’s white majority." There was already a long-standing rumor that Jefferson fathered a child by his slave. Then DNA evidence appears that does not confirm this but shows that it is possible. It is to be expected that many people will leap to the simplest conclusion without looking at possible complexities, even if they have no political motive. Another factor is that concluding that Jefferson fathered children with Hemmings simply makes a better headline than saying that this is not quite proven. Newspapers and scientific grant seekers both find hype quite useful.

Having said that and having now read over the article you posted as well as the Nature article by Lander and Ellis, I will say that despite the heavy tendential tone and some factual errors, the authors in the thread article make a lot of good points. Lander made a mistake by allying himself with Ellis, who is highly controversial on his own. As a colaborative work their commentary article is uneven, sometimes not going beyind the evidence and in other places making an assumption that the case is proven. The article does speculate in one paragraph on the relationship with another case. "Politically, the Thomas Jefferson verdict is likely to figure in upcoming impeachment hearings on William Jefferson Clinton's sexual indiscretions, in which DNA testing has also played a role. " This may have been a true statement, but it doesn't seem too appropriate for a scientific journal, even as commentary. (I'm not how much of the article I can quote as it seems to only be available online by subscription.) The Lander and Ellis article does mention some important evidence which is not covered in the thread article: "First, several of the children bore a striking physical resemblance to Jefferson. Second, Sally's fourth child, Madison, testified late in life that Sally had identified Jefferson as the father of all her children."

146 posted on 12/17/2003 2:52:31 AM PST by wideminded
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To: mrustow
The article seems predicated by the idea that one's children "sully" a father's name by their very existence if they are of an inappropriate race, class, sex, degree of physical perfection, not born within the confines of a standard, formal marriage.

This is wrong. The existence of a child does not shame a person. You do that on your own!

147 posted on 12/17/2003 3:06:23 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: cajungirl
I have a reasonably high opinion of Adams, but always come back to Jefferson as absolutely essential to the American Experiment. Jefferson is not so much in fashion as he was 30 years ago, but his warnings against big government and his vision of a natural aristocracy of talent, should be engraved in all of our consciousnesses.

The most recent thing I read was Setting the World Ablaze, which focused on Adams, Jefferson and Washington by John Ferling. Based on having previously read with some care the chief scholarly biographies of Washington (Douglas Southall Freedman) and Jefferson (Dumas Malone) as well as some of more recent scurulous stuff on Jefferson, my sense was that these modern writers (I hesitate to call them historians even though they hold academic chairs in history) have it in for Jefferson. Many conversatives, especially religious conservatives, dislike Jefferson for his Deism and for his egalitarianism (though his was an egalitarianism of opportunity, not the modern one of result), and even for his generally being a man of the Enlightenment. My own view is that the American Experiment is fully bound up in, and inseparable from, the English and Scottish (at least) Enlightentments and our 'conservative' values today are the values that were seen as liberal, even radical, in their day: individual liberty, economic liberty, and religious tolerance.

148 posted on 12/17/2003 5:08:18 AM PST by CatoRenasci (Ceterum Censeo [Gallia][Germania][Arabia] Esse Delendam --- Select One or More as needed)
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To: Verginius Rufus
Madison Hemings seems to have claimed that his mother told him that Jefferson was his father. At any rate on the 1870 census the census taker wrote next to Madison Hemings' name that "this man is the son of Thomas Jefferson"--which can only mean that Madison told him that. Whether he was telling the truth about what his mother had told him, or whether Sally was telling the truth if she did say that, are other questions. Fawn Brodie turned up an 1873 newspaper article which reported Madison Hemings' claims (but he admitted that Jefferson never treated him as if he considered him his son).

I don't know what the truth of the matter is, but I could understand Madison Hemings preferring to tell people "I am the son of Thomas Jefferson" instead of "I am the son of Thomas Jefferson's brother."

LOL. Note that the leaders of the Hemings Party are very insulted by such contentions, and have even insisted, logic be damned, that there would be no reason for Hemings' children to prefer claiming Thomas over Randolph as their father.

That 1873 newspaper article sounds like the one from the political activist editor (Westmore?) who some scholars now say, wrote everything in his own words (i.e., not in the sort of language Hemings would have used), and likely projected his own political project onto the son, because the interview supposedlt contained things that the son could not have learned from his mother, but were fromn the likes of Callender.

Another problem for the Hemings Party is that the two sons represent mutually incompatible oral traditions. The one tradition passed on the belief that Thomas was the father, while the other one maintained that another Jefferson male was the father.

149 posted on 12/17/2003 5:37:15 AM PST by mrustow
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To: dion
I agree with you. I don't know why anyone thinks that this story, true or not, in any way discredits the legacy of Thomas Jefferson. Personally, I think he was the most important founding father and find many of his quotes to be very prophetic about a lot of the problems we have today. How him possibly sleeping with Sally Hemmings in any way voids his contributions to this country is beyond me. (Ironically these same people would argue that the Monica Lewinsky scandal didn't matter because it was only about sex.) :)

The most important sentence in your post was the last one. These people are such political hacks, that the real significance to the story is as the expression of their expedient, political machinations. They would prostitute all human knowledge.

150 posted on 12/17/2003 5:40:49 AM PST by mrustow
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