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Giving Thomas Jefferson the Business: The Jefferson-Hemings Hoax
A Different Drummer/Middle American News ^ | December, 2003 | Nicholas Stix

Posted on 12/16/2003 11:18:44 AM PST by mrustow

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To: tcuoohjohn
The phenomenon of interracial progeny in was, if not common, then frequent enough for commentators of the day to note it.

Why constrain the phenomenon to times past. Why, even now, I'd rather be the bastard son of Jefferson and Hemmings, than the legitimate offspring of Bill and Hillary Clinton.

51 posted on 12/16/2003 12:21:57 PM PST by elbucko
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To: yankhater
Thomas Jefferson ping. What are your thoughts re: Reply No. 10?
52 posted on 12/16/2003 12:24:36 PM PST by HenryLeeII
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To: CatoRenasci
Excellent summary. But, as you see, even from postings here, no proof is all proof for those who want to or are predisposed to believe the fable regardless of the lack of any incontovertible proof.
53 posted on 12/16/2003 12:25:09 PM PST by AmericanVictory (Should we be more like them, or they like us?)
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To: elbucko
ABC anyone but clinton
54 posted on 12/16/2003 12:25:34 PM PST by cyborg
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To: cyborg
LOL..
55 posted on 12/16/2003 12:27:24 PM PST by elbucko
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To: centurion316
Ping, pass to the Jefferson cousins
56 posted on 12/16/2003 12:28:27 PM PST by centurion316
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To: *CCRM; Peacerose; Shermy; seamole; Fred25; Free ThinkerNY; ouroboros; ChaseR; A.J.Armitage; ...
Ping!
57 posted on 12/16/2003 12:31:32 PM PST by mrustow
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To: Clodia Pulcher
I agree, and am very glad I am not in academia any more. (Though, sometimes I feel guilty at having left and deserted the field to the likes of these leftist scum!) My specialized field was the Enlightenment, so I have spent more than a fair amount of time on the Founding Fathers, especially Jefferson, and did some research in respect of his sojourn in France. IMHO, there is no way TJ was involved with Hemmings when he had his pick of the beauties of the French Court. But, you can't tell the truth to people who don't understand how to evaluate historical evidence and expect them to believe you.
58 posted on 12/16/2003 12:33:25 PM PST by CatoRenasci (Ceterum Censeo [Gallia][Germania][Arabia] Esse Delendam --- Select One or More as needed)
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To: codeword; dennisw; veronica; onyx; Diogenesis; Ernest_at_the_Beach; Pokey78; rockfish59; ...
Heads-up!
59 posted on 12/16/2003 12:33:36 PM PST by mrustow
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To: CatoRenasci
Hubby and I are usually inclined to agree with our dear, distinguished professor. However, I do not buy the Jefferson was an old man theory and incapable of carrying on with the nanny. After visiting Monticello, we had a different sense of Jefferson. I could certainly use with more study, however.

Speaking of Monticello, I would recommend to anyone who wants to know about American history to go there. Jefferson's vision for this new nation came from the vision he could see atop his mountain. Beautiful place. And that is an understatement.
60 posted on 12/16/2003 12:33:50 PM PST by petitfour
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To: RasterMaster; okie01; Torie; GeronL; Faraday; LibWhacker; Mike Darancette; gwmoore; kylaka; ...
FYI
61 posted on 12/16/2003 12:35:30 PM PST by mrustow
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To: Doctor Stochastic; RikaStrom; ctonious; Cincinatus' Wife; dubyaismypresident; bulldog905; Askel5; ..
FYI
62 posted on 12/16/2003 12:36:03 PM PST by mrustow
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To: Valin; ken5050; MHGinTN; JudyB1938; RnMomof7; rwfromkansas; JulieRNR21; Robert A. Cook, PE; ...
Incoming!
63 posted on 12/16/2003 12:36:41 PM PST by mrustow
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To: Doctor Raoul; Lexington Green; mickie; van helsing; AmericanVictory; Octar; holden; glegakis; ...
FYI
64 posted on 12/16/2003 12:37:10 PM PST by mrustow
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To: cmsgop; Entropy Squared; truth_eagle; Bobby777; LittleMac; tgiles; Makhno; brat; Dick Bachert; ...
Ping!
65 posted on 12/16/2003 12:37:47 PM PST by mrustow
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To: skeeter; Ditto; OldFriend; Owen; fnord; NicoleGTalum; dirtboy; KLT; Reschev; cookcounty; wheels; ...
Ping!
66 posted on 12/16/2003 12:38:25 PM PST by mrustow
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To: I am not my own; drZ; gieriscm; Hopalong; monocle; D Joyce; wastoute; Chiron; randita; ...
Heads up!
67 posted on 12/16/2003 12:39:11 PM PST by mrustow
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To: CatoRenasci
there is no way TJ was involved with Hemmings when he had his pick of the beauties of the French Court

*** Sally Hemmings was not ugly by accounts. She was quite beautiful, and a better choice because she was younger than most courtesans anyway. If there's one thing history has proven is that powerful men have a weakness for beautiful women.
68 posted on 12/16/2003 12:40:09 PM PST by cyborg
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To: ClearCase_guy
Jefferson's fathership of the Hemmings child cannot be proven nor disproven. To both sides of the argument: stop being so dogmatic on the issue.

Thomas Jefferson was a brilliant man who did much for this country but he was no saint. If it is proven that he was the father of the Hemmings child, it wouldn't affect my opinion of him. In the words of Henry Hyde, we'll just call it a "youthful indescretion."
69 posted on 12/16/2003 12:43:42 PM PST by CommerceComet
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To: petitfour
You are right that Monticello is a wonderful place to get a sense of Jefferson. I went to VMI, only an hour's drive away, and have visited Monticello many times. It sits beautifully.

Although it is not currently the most fashionable biography, I urge you in the strongest terms to read the Dumas Malone biography of Jefferson. It was written before political correctness. As long as you understand Malone will give Jefferson the benefit of the doubt, you will get a great deal from it, as the scholarship is first-rate and Malone is remarkably fair. Every one of the more recent treatments of Jefferson I have read, from the excreable Fawn Brodie on, has had a real axe to grind, and is hence unreliable.

70 posted on 12/16/2003 12:44:16 PM PST by CatoRenasci (Ceterum Censeo [Gallia][Germania][Arabia] Esse Delendam --- Select One or More as needed)
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To: tcuoohjohn
well...I think on the basis of the preponderance of the evidence ( The historical standard) it is fairly clear that Jefferson fathered one of more children by Sally Hemmings.

Given the manner in which this issue has been handled by the press, your position is perfectly reasonable. But, the point of this article as well as the report of the Blue Ribbon Commission has been to put forward the view that this conclusion does not meet the generally accepted historical standard.

This effort represents historical activism and should be rejected by the academic community. Unfortunately, this is unlikely to occur. Things of this sort have been all to common among the historical academy, in fact, this little hoax is mild compared to some of the other more egregious examples.

71 posted on 12/16/2003 12:46:38 PM PST by centurion316
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To: cyborg
If there's one thing history has proven is that powerful men have a weakness for beautiful women.

And conversely.

Henry Kissinger: Power is the great aphrodisiac.

72 posted on 12/16/2003 12:48:50 PM PST by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: CatoRenasci
Thanks for the recommendation. I will find a copy and read it.
73 posted on 12/16/2003 12:50:49 PM PST by petitfour
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To: Doctor Stochastic
This would explain why women still think Bill Clinton is attractive!
74 posted on 12/16/2003 12:51:52 PM PST by cyborg
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To: cyborg
I never suggested Hemmings was unattractive, and I'm not sure how you translate 'beauties of the French court' as 'courtesans' in the tradition sense of play-for-pay girls.

What is known, is that at the time Hemmings was in Paris with Jefferson she was an awkward and quite unsophisticated young teenager. While later accounts of her describer her as very pretty, the best contemporary description, that of Abigail Adams, does not. At best, she was a girl with potential. Jefferson was known to enjoy the company of intelligent, sophisticated, pretty women (one things of Abigail Adams - not a lover, but a friend). There is no evidence that he had what we have come to call a 'Pygmalion' complex, a desire to take poor, but pretty women and elevate and educate them. What I was suggesting the evidence shows is that Jefferson had his pick of women whom he would find a far more attractive overall package than Hemmings.

75 posted on 12/16/2003 12:52:36 PM PST by CatoRenasci (Ceterum Censeo [Gallia][Germania][Arabia] Esse Delendam --- Select One or More as needed)
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To: CatoRenasci
I misunderstood something you said then my apologies.

What I was suggesting the evidence shows is that Jefferson had his pick of women whom he would find a far more attractive overall package than Hemmings.

*** Wasn't there rumors he DID have french mistress? I will have to look back in the posts but someone else had mentioned it also.
76 posted on 12/16/2003 12:56:52 PM PST by cyborg
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To: CatoRenasci
What did you think of the movie Jefferson in Paris?
77 posted on 12/16/2003 12:58:36 PM PST by cyborg
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To: mrustow
This is old new. We know today that it was actually Strom Thurmond that fathered Sally Hemmings children. ;-)

78 posted on 12/16/2003 1:00:11 PM PST by Rightwing Conspiratr1
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To: mrustow
TJ fan bump for later
79 posted on 12/16/2003 1:00:58 PM PST by j_tull
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To: cyborg
Jefferson almost certainly had one or more romatic liaisons while in Paris (remember, this is after his wife died). There were several women whose names were connected with his, how seriously those reports should be taken is unclear, as he was a real social "catch", and too much of a gentleman to either confirm or deny any rumors. Just as Franklin, an earlier envoy to France during the Revolution, was rumored to have many affairs. He undoubtedly had some, but IIRC, one wag said that if Franklin had slept with all the women who claimed to have slept with him, he'd never have slept at all during his time in France.
80 posted on 12/16/2003 1:06:35 PM PST by CatoRenasci (Ceterum Censeo [Gallia][Germania][Arabia] Esse Delendam --- Select One or More as needed)
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To: cyborg
Have not seen it.
81 posted on 12/16/2003 1:07:06 PM PST by CatoRenasci (Ceterum Censeo [Gallia][Germania][Arabia] Esse Delendam --- Select One or More as needed)
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To: mrustow; 4ConservativeJustices; stainlessbanner; GOPcapitalist
Jefferson bump
82 posted on 12/16/2003 1:09:11 PM PST by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: CatoRenasci
You aren't missing much. The only thing they got right were the main actors. Nick Nolte is older and Thandi Newton is half African and half English. I think they alluded to the french lady thing too, but you know what the movie really was about.
83 posted on 12/16/2003 1:10:36 PM PST by cyborg
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To: Sabertooth
Ping! I believe you had a few links on this junk.
84 posted on 12/16/2003 1:12:50 PM PST by TomServo ("This can't be Wisconsin! There aren't any signs for Tommy Bartlett's water show.")
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To: CatoRenasci
While some may find Jefferson's sexual business offensive, I don't. He was single, and a widower still has need for a woman. UNLIKE, Bill Clinton who was married, had a child already and catting around with anything and everything in a skirt.

So call me a moral relativist, but if I hear Klintoon or Jackson compare themselves to Jefferson one more time, I'm going to vomit.
85 posted on 12/16/2003 1:13:02 PM PST by cyborg
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To: Servant of the 9; cyborg
Does it really matter?

Yes. It DOES matter. The Left is systematically trying to tear down all of our founding fathers, to further their ultimate conclusion: That all of American heritage and law is based in racism and hypocrisy, and is therefore illegitimate. All hail the [Communist] revolution!

I tend to believe he did father children for Sally from what I have read in the past.

Only one of Sally Hemings's children, Eston, showed evidence of having a father with Jefferson genes.

Eston's father could have been one of many Jefferson relatives living in Virginia at the time. Suspicion has settled on two of Thomas Jefferson's nephews, both surnamed Carr, who frequented Mount Vernon and who are buried there in the Jefferson family graveyard.

It is far more likely that one of the Carr brothers fathered Eston than Thomas Jefferson, who was quite elderly and who suffered from debilitating migraine headaches at the time of Eston's conception.

86 posted on 12/16/2003 1:14:30 PM PST by shhrubbery!
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To: CatoRenasci
Malone said that he thought that the father of Sally's children was Peter and Samuel Carr. They were the sons of one of Jefferson's sisters, and they were named by both Jefferson's grandson and his overseer. They must have been telling the truth, right? The grandson even swore he got a confession from either Peter or Samuel himself.

Too bad the DNA excluded both Peter and Samuel Carr! Randolph Jefferson was barely mentioned prior to the DNA test as a possible father. In order to determine the father, you must look to see what Jefferson Y-chromosone holder was there at the time of each Hemings child conception- so far there is only one who was there each time- Thomas Jefferson. That, along with exclusion of the Carr brothers who were the most likely suspects prior to the DNA test, leads me to believe that Jefferson was the father of Sally's children. Of course, no one can ever know the truth.

87 posted on 12/16/2003 1:17:05 PM PST by LWalk18
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To: Servant of the 9
"Yes, but we will never know what the TRUTH of this matter is."

That's CLASSIC moral relativism. Did you train at DU? Will we ever know the truth? Maybe not. But the dissemblers want the issue framed as, This is what we say the situation must be...now you disprove it--prove a negative.

"The 'facts' in the article above are no more definitive than the claims of the other side."

Actually, you're right on this...until you apply logic, reason and common sense. They're not "facts," they're facts. And the other side has made many an unfounded claim. A careful reading can lead one to a reasonable inference: while there is no definitive proof that Jefferson had children with Hemmings, it is still possible. Unproven, but possible.

"Neither side has anything but allegations and vague statistics."

Okay, I get it now. You're just here to piss people off. You don't really have anything intelligent to offer.

"Does either position make Thomas Jefferson less of a great man, indeed a Renaissance Man, and patriot?"

Yes, the side of the race dissemblers and hustlers does make him less of a great man--because attached to the "fact" of his fathering the kids with Hemmings is a whole train car of baggage: he was a hypocrite, a racist, a liar, and that therefore makes him, and his part in founding the country, less legitimate--less great.

Here's what's what: According to the best historical and DNA research, one of a minimum of 25 men in the Thomas Jefferson family fathered at least one child that we know of by Sally Hemmings.

If you read that as, Founding Father Thomas Jefferson made babies with one of his slaves...well, you don't know how to read.
88 posted on 12/16/2003 1:17:25 PM PST by John Robertson
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To: Flux Capacitor
Racist black professors and journalists, and their elite white allies, now insist that black oral history be given pride of place over documentary evidence.

I am trying to figure out the angle on the Jefferson-Hemings story, but this "black oral history" is highly suspect. Did you know that the whole theory of academic study of "Cleopatra was black" just because some illiterate grandmother told her professor grandaughter that she heard it when she was young. Not a shred of evidence supports this, yet now it is taken seriously by some lefty academics.

89 posted on 12/16/2003 1:17:27 PM PST by KC_Conspirator (This space for rent)
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To: mrustow
Good article, but this is a cheap shot: "ignoring the fact that unlike fiction, history is about what DID transpire, not what COULD HAVE transpired." We don't know "what DID transpire," and Stix is as much in the business of looking at "What COULD HAVE transpired" as anyone he criticizes. Probably the verdict is "not proven," and historians have made too much of the rumors. But Stix is not less inclined to use hearsay and rumor when it suits him, and one can't stop historians from looking into such stories. The "Jefferson wouldn't do that" response naturally provokes many historians to demonstrate that he could or did.

While Stix is on the whole on more solid ground than those he criticizes, one can't help pointing out that if Callender was a liar or scandalmonger, he had worked for Jefferson before turning against him. It's only fair that Jeffersonians have to face up to the sort of allegations that their leader encouraged against his own enemies.

90 posted on 12/16/2003 1:19:18 PM PST by x
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To: shhrubbery!
The Carr were excluded by the DNA test- if those test proved anything, they proved that neither Carr fathered Eston Hemings. That is why everyone is pushed Randolph- notice that neither side mentions them after 1998.
91 posted on 12/16/2003 1:20:17 PM PST by LWalk18
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To: billbears
Based on DNA evidence, one of 25 possible Jeffersons with the same Y chromsome was the father. We couldn't even get a jury to convict OJ with more evidence than that.
92 posted on 12/16/2003 1:21:40 PM PST by 4CJ (Come along chihuahua, I want to hear you say yo quiero taco bell. - Nolu Chan, 28 Jul 2003)
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To: shhrubbery!
The possibility of Thomas Jefferson's fornication does not bother me. It doesn't change how I regard him as president. It does not invalidate his role in building this country. The left can believe what it wants to, but I know what I believe about this country. It is a good country, and history isn't riddled with dead,white males who were evil wicked people. Besides the left, the arbitors of the sexual revolution, have sown more oats than one dead president.
93 posted on 12/16/2003 1:22:02 PM PST by cyborg
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To: KC_Conspirator
People will believe what they want to believe. Somehow Cleopatra being black is supposed to infuse all poor blacks here with self esteem. This is as ridiculous as saying I'm smart because my family came from Europe.
94 posted on 12/16/2003 1:24:25 PM PST by cyborg
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To: cyborg
Didn't Jesse Jackass father an illigitimate child? He doesn't get dragged through the mud. Of course, no one really cares...
95 posted on 12/16/2003 1:28:52 PM PST by MichiganCheese (What would Scooby Do?)
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To: centurion316
I tend to disagree with your notion of "Historical activism" The question of Hemming's paternity is one that has existed for nearly 200 years. It is only within the last decade or so that technology has advanced to the point that some reasonably conclusive evidence could he had. The Commission was one that seemed emminently fair to me and followed good historical investigative process. The evidence was weighed in toto and conclusions were drawn on the basis of preponderance of historical and current evidence. There was a full throated minority report and the commission's findings were subject to rigorous peer review

I have no axe to grind in the Jefferson paternity issue and could careless about some obscure political spin placed on the results of their inquiries. That wasn't their charge.

For me the evidence while not absolutely definitive in the sense of the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard used in a criminal trial it overwhelmingly met the preponderance of evidence standard used by historians. The evidence of supporting the conclusion tha Jefferson fathered one or more of Hemmings children dwarfs the evidence that he didn't father Hemming's child.

Those who oppose the conclusion posit what I consider to be strained and tortured explanations that are unsupported by evidence. In the end they are reduced to the position of entertaining speculations of how Jefferson might not be the father of Hemming's child. They remain speculations devoid of evidence.
96 posted on 12/16/2003 1:29:43 PM PST by tcuoohjohn (Follow The Money)
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To: petitfour
There is a film at Monticello (the welcome center or museum or whatever it is) that mentions Jefferson having an affair with some married British female while he was a diplomat in Paris.

That was Maria Cosway. She and her husband were both portrait painters.

Ben Franklin had preceded Jefferson in Paris and was said to have had very many affairs. I don't know about Jefferson, but Franklin's undoubted amorousness puts 18th century life in a different light than most of us got from history textbooks.

97 posted on 12/16/2003 1:30:36 PM PST by x
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To: MichiganCheese
Of course not. Rainbow PUSH hush money is great thing to have.
98 posted on 12/16/2003 1:30:53 PM PST by cyborg
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To: LWalk18
You're right that Malone focused on Carr (the "nephew" I referred to in my first post). I don't have the Malone handy, but I seem to recall Randoph being mentioned as a possibility. If I remember the 2000 report, it is not the case that TJ was the only Jefferson male who was present when the Hemmings children were conceived. I'll look it up when I get a chance.
99 posted on 12/16/2003 1:33:10 PM PST by CatoRenasci (Ceterum Censeo [Gallia][Germania][Arabia] Esse Delendam --- Select One or More as needed)
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To: CatoRenasci
Here's a bio on Sally Hemings from the Jefferson Foundation:

http://www.monticello.org/plantation/lives/sallyhemings.html
100 posted on 12/16/2003 1:43:32 PM PST by petitfour
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