ABORTION

Catholic Citizens of Illinois ^ | 12-16-03 | Barbara Kralis

[ckca]

I'm not willing to fight another civil war over tiny clusters of cells (which is what the pill terminates)

The pill terminates human life.

"Inconvenient or inconsequential human life can be destroyed, just because we say so." Yours is the mentality from which comes much destruction, suffering, and despair, and ultimately, enslavement to tyranny.

[MHGinTN]

"Inconvenient inconsequential human life" that is a chilling proclamation from a fellow human being. Has a 'talibanesque' ring to it, don'tchaknow!

[SpookBrat]

Do you think all girls are easy?

[biblewonk]

486 is better than pba.

By the way it looks like we could have some interesting discussion about Mary from your SN.

[Modernman]

Do you think all girls are easy?

Not at all. I was just making a general statement- if you make birth control harder to get, you increase the number of unwanted pregnancies, STD transmissions etc.

[Map Kernow]

Let's see: if Tom Ridge and others in the Bush Administration are talking about an amnesty for illegals, can we maybe have an amnesty for unborn children?

What's that? You say the unborn don't vote? No campaign contributions from the unborn?

Oh.....

[Modernman]

The pill terminates human life.

Now that's the question, isn't it? When does a human being begin? Most people, I think, would not consider a small cluster of cells, at most 72 hours old, to be human. It may be alive but it doesn't yet meet the requirements for being human.

At some point in the development of that cluster of cells (upon achieving sentience, maybe) it becomes human. A few hours after conception, it's not there yet.

[Desdemona]

Most people, I think, would not consider a small cluster of cells, at most 72 hours old, to be human. It may be alive but it doesn't yet meet the requirements for being human.

Having unique DNA and that DNA is human, those "clusters of cells" are really very tiny humans.

[MHGinTN]

You are absolutely wrong. But you assert your opinion strongly ...

[Modernman]

Having unique DNA and that DNA is human, those "clusters of cells" are really very tiny humans.

DNA is not enough. Cells can be removed from your adult body-they have unique, human DNA, they even have the potential, through cloning, to become fully human. Is a cell taken from your cheek therefore human?

Granted, given enough time and the proper circumstances, the cluster of cells can grow into a full-blown human. However, given enough time and the proper circumstances, a single sperm cell can grow into a full-blown human. The potential to become human isn't the same as being human.

[Desdemona]

Too many steps of rationalization. Sorry.

Life begins at conception. A "cluster of cells" can't be human one day and not human the next. It just doesn't work that way.

[MHGinTN]

You continue to err, biologically. 'Potential'?... If we look at a toddler, that individual human life 'has the potential to become post-pubescent, but it isn't there yet' ... do you see the absurdity of your arbitrary assignation? The first totipotent cell zygote that you were at one time along your lifetime had something no other cell of you has had since ... 'potential to build everything you needed to survive in the womb, while building the body you are using now' ... but all that followed your zygote age developed at YOUR INDIVIDUAL INSTRUCTION. To err in comparing the somatic cell in your mouth or even your crotch as equivalent to the zygote is very uneducated of you. Try to catch up to the scientific facts, if you're going to pontificate.

[ckca]

Most people, I think, would not consider a small cluster of cells, at most 72 hours old, to be human.

If not human, what is it?

You and I both began life as first a fertilized egg then a small cluster of cells then eventually what we are today.

I assure you, since conception, I have been fully human.

On the other hand, you could argue that you were never and are not now human.

Some would believe your rhetoric, but I would fight to save your right to your human life, then as now, despite your ignorance of the scientific objective fact of when human life begins.

[luckystarmom]

Both the IUD and morning after pill prevent implantation.

[Modernman]

Life begins at conception

I agree with you- life does begin at conception. A human being doesn't.

A "cluster of cells" can't be human one day and not human the next. It just doesn't work that way.

It certainly works that way in reverse- one day you're a living, breathing human, the next you're a pile of cells (some of which die before others). I draw the line at sentience.

[MHGinTN]

The poster in question has a problem differentiating organ and organism ... the 'cluster' is an organism, the cells in his mouth are sub-units of an organ within his organism.

[Modernman]

If we look at a toddler, that individual human life 'has the potential to become post-pubescent, but it isn't there yet' ... do you see the absurdity of your arbitrary assignation?

You're arguing apples and oranges. A toddler and a post-adolescent are both fully-actualized humans, existing outside of the womb. To compare either of them to a cluster of a couple of dozen cells doesn't make sense. To compare that cluster of cells to a several-month-old baby growing in the womb also doesn't make sense.

but all that followed your zygote age developed at YOUR INDIVIDUAL INSTRUCTION.

My point is, though the zygote may have had the potential to become a human being, it isn't there yet. I draw the line at a different point than you as to when a human being begins (though I agree with you as to where life begins).

[jwalsh07]

I draw the line at sentience.

How do you measure that line?

[conservonator]

No sense of how to actually change culture. They'll just scream "MURDERER!" and "JESUS!!!" all day long, leaving anyone who's normal to just shrug and walk away.

So... "normal" people like abortion and don't like Jesus? or "normal" people think Jesus supports abortion? or "normal" people don’t give a s**t about anything but them selves or "normal" people avoid confronting all the real implications of abortion.

I guess I'm not normal.

[Modernman]

If not human, what is it?

A potential human, given enough time and the proper circumstances.

On the other hand, you could argue that you were never and are not now human.

No one could logically argue that an adult human is not a human being. Reasonable people can disagree as to whether a cluster of cells qualifies as human.

despite your ignorance of the scientific objective fact of when human life begins.

Biology determines when life begins, but what constitutes a human being is a question for ethicists and philosophers.