ABORTION

Catholic Citizens of Illinois ^ | 12-16-03 | Barbara Kralis

[jwalsh07]

So a 16 year old guy shouldn't be able to buy condoms and a 16 year old girl shouldn't be able to buy the sponge without parental knowledge (unless they have been abused by that parent)?

No need to buy them, the same state that requires parental permission for students to partake of aspirin in school hands out condoms and facilitates abortions. You do understand the difference between the two don't you?

[TheAngryClam]

I was using plastic surgeons as an example of doctors pushing on both the supply side and the demand side.

As for companies lobbying to get the government to carry a lot of water for them, where to begin?

Railroads, for one. Detroit auto manufacturers were another. There were the various Crown Chartered companies in England back in the day. Biotech is pretty big on suckling at the federal teat these days.

I don't really have much of a problem with it either- you won't hear me ranting about "corporate welfare," as you seem to be doing. I just am mystified by your unwillingness to realize that such things occur every single day, and your expectation that abortion providers should work differently to be rather amusing, is all.

[TheAngryClam]

Look back at the argument that jwalsh07 was trying to make about aspirin being regulated on the grounds of a high school vs. parental notification.

I reject his comparison.

[drjimmy]

There is a rather compelling case to make that the state should encourage and foster non abusive parents knowing what their underage children are up to. But that is just my own little bias.
My own little bias is that the state shouldn't require a 17 year old to get parental permission to buy a condom.

[RedBloodedAmerican]

Well, it was a few yeard back, actually. Out west, in Washington State. Lady at the church I attended ran one for the town.

[Torie]

I think John was trying to make the point that existing law lacked well, rational coherency, under any standard. I don't think he was attempting to set forth some grand unified principle as to what should be. But I did. I think state laws should where sensible and reasonable, foster non abusive parents obtaining knowledge about what their children are doing.

[jwalsh07]

I reject his comparison.

No problem, if we've accomplished anything at all here, we've identified you as a statist of the first order.

[Mo1]

This ruling by the FDA will haunt them for years to come

Not only does it tell girls, you don't have to worry if there is a pill to pop

What do you think the chances of AIDS cases skyrocketing are?

[drjimmy]

You do understand the difference between the two don't you?

I can understand why you sidestepped answering my question, since it is rather hard to defend being against allowing a 17 year old to buy a condom without parental permission. Especially since such a thing would likely lead to a rise in abortions.

[hocndoc]

I don't understand why you are so angry at those who disagree with the change in status of a drug from "perscription only" to "over the counter."

You are correct in that the States do assume the privilege of regulating the "age of consent" or make special cases. That is one reason for every citizen who values his life and freedom to participate in the actions of the State, by encouraging those regulations we each agree with and working to overturn those that we disagree with.

The State in our Republic, or Federation of United States, is run democratically and, on the Federal level, by representatives who are chosen by the electorate, and those they appoint to regulatory agencies.

States and the Federal Government do not actually have "rights." The rights of the State are no more than those of the individuals who empower the States and the Federal Goverment. The State can not legitimately move to infringe on the inalienable rights of human beings, most especially the right not to be killed or enslaved.

The States have endeavored to regulate medical and surgical procedures. That regulation carries with it the responsiblity and risk. It also carries the virtual guns and force of the State into the medical relationship. That is why the concept of a "regulated," "private" act is an oxymoron.

It's my opinion that the State cannot deny parental control for minors at the age when the parent has financial and civil and criminal *responsibility* for the actions of the child. With responsibility comes privilege and vice versa.

[MHGinTN]

Pardon the intrusion, but your use of 'fertilized egg' is grossly in error. Once the first cell division occurs with the zygote, there is no longer an 'egg' ... the oocyte of human fertilization is a haploid cell that ceases to exist once fusion of its 23 chromosomes occurs with the 23 chromosomes brought in through the oocyte's zona pellucida (and you might want to use oocyte, since human women aren't hens). As many as eight to twenty cell divisions before the individual human being in embryo age makes it through implantation (that's a progression ... one divides to make two, two divide to make four, four divide to make eight, etc).

[hocndoc]

""...do you think there are any circumstances where an underage individual should be allowed to obtain birth control devices or medicine without parental permission?""

1. When the action will not infringe on the inalienable right of another not to be killed.

and

2. When the parent would not be held responsible for the action (debt, crime, truancy,ongoing health and well being etc.) of the minor.

[WackyKat]

This ruling by the FDA will haunt them for years to come Not only does it tell girls, you don't have to worry if there is a pill to pop

You can say the same thing about regular birth control pills.

Do you want to make them illegal too?

[jwalsh07]

Evidently, I gave you more credit than you deserved. A condom is a contraceptive. abortion and abortifacients by definition end a human life. One is a preventative measure, the others are medical procedures.

17 years of age is the age of majority in several of the states so your question really had no meaning. But you chose for whatever reason. Do you think the parents should be forced by the state to provide medical care, shelter, food and clothing to that 17 year old? How about a 13 year old? 6 years old?

[MHGinTN]

Oh, it's far more dangerous than that ... hormonal systems in the human body work on a feedback/regulatory system of signals. Incidence of infertility as these 'girls' age will be much higher, not to mention the malignancy potentials inherent in grossly manipulated endocrine balances during formative years.

[Torie]

That is all very interesting, but if a parent denies birth control to their child, and as a result, there is issue, then the parent should be financially responsible for the issue until the issue achieves the age of majority. What do you think? I draw a rather sharp line between parental permission and notification. The two are not fungible and co-extensive.

[hocndoc]

If the "birth control" begins *after* fertilization, there is reason to "fuss." I'm still not convinced that the post-coital medicine protocols do this, but I wouldn't prescribe them unless I could be convinced that they do not harm any human life or health.

The FDA needs to require the research to prove whether or not there are post-fertilization effects of the protocols.

Also, any woman or girl who has unprotected sex is at risk for consequences other than pregnancy. She also needs medical screening for STD's and regular health maintainence, including counseling on what to do when and if she does become pregnant or wishes to become pregnant. (Another recommendation of yesterday's Committee meeting was that folic acid supplements be added to oral contraceptives, btw.)

[Torie]

Parent being grandparent actually.

[Mo1]

You can say the same thing about regular birth control pills.

And where is my post did I mention anything about being legal or illegal???

Oh and I couldn't help notice that you copied all of my post except this part

What do you think the chances of AIDS cases skyrocketing are?

Maybe I am just old .. or it's that I still have the values that my parents taught me

I realize kids are going to have sex .. they have been doing it since the beginning of time

But I still remember the day when women had more self respect and didn't sleep with every Tom, Dick & Harry and didn't have to worry about popping a pill or getting AIDS

[drjimmy]

A condom is a contraceptive.
Yes. It is a birth control device. You said you were against allowing underage individuals to get birth control devices without parental permission. I understand the difference between a condom and an abortion, but either you don't or you don't think a 17 year old should be allowed to buy a condom.