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Two Novice Gumshoes Charted The Capture Of Saddam Hussein
Wall Street Journal via Early Bird ^ | December 18,2003 | Farnaz Fassihi, Staff Reporter Of The Wall Street Journal

Posted on 12/18/2003 5:50:19 AM PST by Ispy4u

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To: elli1
"OCS age requirement 19-29. Age waivers on a case by case basis up to age 34. Sounds like the Cpl could well have missed the cutoff."

He's only been in for 27 months or less. Plus today, there are lots of enlisted people with degrees. Some prefer the enlisted life, the chance to be more "mission-oriented" rather than career-oriented. That's why SF guys stay enlisted, otherwise they end up going to all kinds of other not-so-exciting assignments.

51 posted on 12/18/2003 7:12:02 AM PST by cookcounty (Howard Dean, mayor of a picturesque small town in New England.)
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To: aculeus
A CPL is a Non-commissioned officer, an easy mistake for a dumb reporter.
52 posted on 12/18/2003 7:12:22 AM PST by Ispy4u
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To: MindBender26
You find a lot of people who were prior enlisted service who get commissioned. You also find a lot of patriots who enlisted after 9/11, even though they were a bit "long in the tooth".

I would like to believe that your comment was not implying that these two were deficient in any manner.

53 posted on 12/18/2003 7:13:50 AM PST by Redleg Duke (Stir the pot...don't let anything settle to the bottom where the lawyers can feed off of it!)
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To: IGOTMINE
I was a Marine Reservist before joining the Army. I tried to go Active USMC but they considered me Prior Service and wouldn't take me at the time. I joined the Army for the Gulf War, I miss the Corps from time to time but the Army has treated me very well.
54 posted on 12/18/2003 7:13:57 AM PST by Ispy4u
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To: Ispy4u
From an old OB Tech, an excellent example of sound, imaginative and innovative Order of Battle analysis. Congrats and "Well done" to these two fine soldiers.
55 posted on 12/18/2003 7:14:26 AM PST by headodenton
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To: Ispy4u
That is AMAZING! Active Duty Marine Corps required a waiver because you were prior service USMCR! What a nutroll.

I'm trying to rejoin the Marine Corps reserves...left active duty in 1995 as an 0231. Spent my first six years as an 03. Then one day when I was carrying an M60 up a hill I had a vision...
56 posted on 12/18/2003 7:15:58 AM PST by IGOTMINE (All we are saying... is give guns a chance!)
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To: headodenton
When did you retire, there is a slight chance we know each other, MI is quite small.
57 posted on 12/18/2003 7:16:05 AM PST by Ispy4u
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To: Moonman62
I have to wonder why we are paying billions upon billions for professional intelligence bureaucracies. Where were they?

"They" were probably right there, not sharing information as usual. I've had the opportunity to work with some of the 'pros' recently, and my awe quickly gave way to disappointment.

In my somewhat limited experience, they act like prima donna's who are too good to be working with the common military intelligence peons. Apparently their fucntion is to not do anything except take over politically sensitive intel hits from the commoners, and present them as their own.

I'm sure they were screaming to high heaven to get their hands on Saddam the minute we got him.

58 posted on 12/18/2003 7:17:14 AM PST by Steel Wolf (There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot.)
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To: MindBender26
"A 31 year old, 11 year service lieutenant? A 36 year old E-4?"

That's O-4. Some folks would rather work than fly a desk. I've seen E-6's retire after 20 years.

59 posted on 12/18/2003 7:17:21 AM PST by BobS
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To: Ispy4u
All I have to say is Well Done

60 posted on 12/18/2003 7:18:40 AM PST by daylate-dollarshort
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To: Ispy4u
" A CPL is a Non-commissioned officer, an easy mistake for a dumb reporter."

Is an E-4 an NCO, now? When I was in (the '71-'73 dark ages), I was an E4, but they didn't consider us NCOs. When I visited an Air Force base, I was shocked to find I could go to the NCO club and everybody addressed me as "Sargeant."

61 posted on 12/18/2003 7:19:27 AM PST by cookcounty (Howard Dean, mayor of a picturesque small town in New England.)
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To: Publius6961
Sure beats the hell out of the mental midget officer material on these threads abusing Col West and spouting rules and regulations.

Actually, this is an excellent comparison. Unlike Lt. Col. West, these folks used their brains. And got much better results.

62 posted on 12/18/2003 7:23:08 AM PST by r9etb
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Comment #63 Removed by Moderator

To: cookcounty
The army has two E-4 Designations, Specialist which is not an NCO and CPL which is, the difference is usually the CPL has been to PLDC and usually has been boarded for E-5. Though some units will "promote" a Specialist to Corporal if they have any soldiers under them.
64 posted on 12/18/2003 7:26:25 AM PST by Ispy4u
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To: Ispy4u; xzins
Gotta jab back. ; )

LOL

S2 BUMP. A job very well done.

65 posted on 12/18/2003 7:26:49 AM PST by LTCJ (For crying out loud, George, veto SOMETHING!)
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To: Ispy4u
What bothers me a bit about this article is that they released the actual names of those involved on the Intel side. Not a good idea in a guerilla-war. They are now potential targets for the other side.

Heck the Israelis don't even ackowledge the names of their combat pilots because of the fear of retribution.

And a final thought: regardless of their experience or preparation, this 1LT & CPL are now the resident experts. They'll be teaching this stuff when they get back to the States.

66 posted on 12/18/2003 7:29:47 AM PST by Tallguy (I can't think of anything to say -- John Entwistle in "The Kids are Alright")
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To: Tallguy
Release of names is a concern, but the media can't give anyone 15 minutes of fame with out their names. You know how important the 15 mins is.
67 posted on 12/18/2003 7:36:28 AM PST by Ispy4u
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To: elli1
Looks like his CO recognized a valuable asset regardless of rank.
68 posted on 12/18/2003 7:36:34 AM PST by Blood of Tyrants (Even if the government took all your earnings, you wouldn’t be, in its eyes, a slave.)
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To: Ispy4u
This was a great job these analysts did. This was difficult, tedious work done well by inexperienced people. No fancy degrees or ivory -tower credentials - just a system, determination, and legwork. It just goes to show what Americans can do when they put their mind to it.

They deserve the congratulations of all Americans and indeed the World.

Well done!

69 posted on 12/18/2003 7:36:57 AM PST by Gritty ("if we have another 9/11, our response would be too terrible to contemplate"-Victor Davis Hanson)
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To: cookcounty
Rank is a little tougher to come by now, than way back when I was in. I kept getting promoted because I had a pulse and didn't smoke dope.

Know what you mean. I was a 17 month E-6, acting E-7 in RVN, then OCS, then a 24 month (post commissioning) 0-3!

of course, I had more money in my pocket when I was a $93 a month E-1!

70 posted on 12/18/2003 7:37:51 AM PST by MindBender26 (For more news as it happens, stay tuned to your local FReeper Network station)
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To: Redleg Duke
I would like to believe that your comment was not implying that these two were deficient in any manner.

Correct. Just wondering how one lives on E-4 money at 36?

Remember, the wind blows in Texas because Ft. Sill sucks!

Semper Gumby

71 posted on 12/18/2003 7:40:30 AM PST by MindBender26 (For more news as it happens, stay tuned to your local FReeper Network station)
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To: BobS
Not an o-4. He was a 36 year old E-4 corporal!

Knew a fellow who was an E-8, busted to E-1 on a fatal DWI, "soldiered" his way out of Leavenworth, worked his arse off, retired as an E-8.
72 posted on 12/18/2003 7:42:59 AM PST by MindBender26 (For more news as it happens, stay tuned to your local FReeper Network station)
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To: Ispy4u
read later
73 posted on 12/18/2003 7:49:23 AM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: Ispy4u
"ah....just one more thing....
74 posted on 12/18/2003 8:24:02 AM PST by stylin19a (is it vietnam yet ?)
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To: MindBender26
I'm 33, and I just barely made E-5 (again).

Maybe she was prior-enlisted.

Whatever the case, they kicked ass!
75 posted on 12/18/2003 8:24:06 AM PST by Britton J Wingfield (TANSTAAFL)
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To: TexasCowboy
I thought you might find this to be interesting reading.
76 posted on 12/18/2003 9:25:38 AM PST by Maigrey (Gregory, this year, don't take the Silverwear.)
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To: MindBender26
I believe the CPL said that he was a school teacher and joined after 9/11 .. I would assume that the LT was prior enlisted and went though OCS or such.
77 posted on 12/18/2003 10:03:58 AM PST by MAJ_C
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To: cookcounty
"Some prefer the enlisted life, the chance to be more "mission-oriented" rather than career-oriented."

I agree & thought the same thing, esp. about the Cpl. Given his old stodgy job as an English teacher & his being motivated by September 11, I think he sounds like a mission-oriented type of guy.
78 posted on 12/18/2003 10:12:34 AM PST by elli1
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To: MindBender26
"Just wondering how one lives on E-4 money at 36?"

Probably a lot less painlessly than living on it at 20! Another thing to consider is that he can retire from military after 20 years at 54 YO. Return to teaching for another retirement check or on to something very well paid given his experience in Intel.
79 posted on 12/18/2003 10:24:15 AM PST by elli1
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To: Maigrey
"I thought you might find this to be interesting reading."

VERY!

I love to see the little guys (and gals!) getting some credit!
Thanks!

80 posted on 12/18/2003 10:36:48 AM PST by TexasCowboy (COB1)
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To: Ispy4u
Does it strike anyone as odd that this analysis was not begun twenty years ago .... reached the stage described here within one year of the start of hostilities in 1991 and this entire family structure thoroughly compromised by the start of hostilities this year?

Our intel sucks AND blows at the same time.

who the ____ is running this world anyway?
81 posted on 12/18/2003 10:47:39 AM PST by mercy
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To: Ispy4u
I certainly hope promotions are in the works for these two.
82 posted on 12/18/2003 10:56:16 AM PST by Route66 (America's Mainstreet)
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To: Ispy4u
A "This is what you'll never hear about on 60 Minutes"BUMP!!!
83 posted on 12/18/2003 11:09:29 AM PST by Pagey (Hillary Rotten is a Smug and Holier- than- Thou Socialist)
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To: Ispy4u
This is a great story. Great post.
84 posted on 12/18/2003 11:33:48 AM PST by 68skylark
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To: Pagey
Yeah, you're right. It's a real shame the big-city press is so anti-military. (Their anti-military stance is just a stand in for their anti-Americanism.) There are so many compelling stories from Iraq and elsewhere. Thank heaven we have the FR to help get the word out!
85 posted on 12/18/2003 11:46:21 AM PST by 68skylark
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To: MindBender26
No, the wind howls over Ft. Sill because Texas sucks and Kansas blows! :-)

I guess you make do when you want to serve badly enough.
86 posted on 12/18/2003 12:05:16 PM PST by Redleg Duke (Stir the pot...don't let anything settle to the bottom where the lawyers can feed off of it!)
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To: MindBender26
A 31 year old, 11 year service lieutenant? A 36 year old E-4?

I'm sure the LT was prior enlisted, and the E-4 should by rights soon be an LT. Except I think maybe he's too old for OCS, not sure about that though.

87 posted on 12/19/2003 4:49:21 PM PST by El Gato (Federal Judges can twist the Constitution into anything.. Or so they think.)
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To: Moonman62
I have to wonder why we are paying billions upon billions for professional intelligence bureaucracies. Where were they?

Well the few indians were trying to their jobs, but the chiefs were playing bureaucractic power games. Same old, same old.

88 posted on 12/19/2003 4:51:33 PM PST by El Gato (Federal Judges can twist the Constitution into anything.. Or so they think.)
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To: Blood of Tyrants
The corporal joined after 9/11, so he has been in only two years. But why he didn't try for OCS (too old?) when he had a degree

Yep, from Army Officer Candidate Page OCS requirements tab.

At least 19 and not older than 29 at time of USAREC Selelction Board. (age waivers will be considered on a case by case basis for applicnats ages 29-34)

If he's 36 now, he was 33 or 34 upon enlistment, depending on how long after 9-11 he enlisted. An age waiver might have been possible then, but now he's too old for even that.

89 posted on 12/19/2003 5:08:37 PM PST by El Gato (Federal Judges can twist the Constitution into anything.. Or so they think.)
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To: aculeus
Great article but "cpls" are not officers.

True, not even non-commisioned officers. However I wouldn't be too very suprised if the corporal was soon a Sgt, and they are NCOs. The LT will soon be a Captain too, just in the normal course of things if nothing else. (It's only 2-3 years from 1LT to Captain, IIRC, it was 2 years in my day, 18 months not long before that...but it took me more like 8 years. Long boring story)

90 posted on 12/19/2003 5:16:43 PM PST by El Gato (Federal Judges can twist the Constitution into anything.. Or so they think.)
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To: IGOTMINE
You are exactly right. I attended demos of programs designed to do just this. One national agency I worked at for several years had an automated program that used programmable "filters" to construct possible nexuses (nexi ?) from various forms of communications. The results were displayed in "clusters" with weighted connections between the nodes. Supposedly, all one had to do was to feed this beast enough data and bingo - there's the person or people to target.

Your comment about disseminating tools like this down to the folks who could really use them is a critical issue within our intelligence services. Compartmentalization due to security requirements, while necessary for counterintelligence reasons, is really bad for spreading the wealth, so to speak.
91 posted on 12/19/2003 5:21:34 PM PST by GunnyB (Once a Marine, Always a Marine)
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To: gdc61
Jarheads? Marines are some of the best counterinsurgency troops in the world. Not having the gear and firepower of the Army always has meant that we needed to be smarter & faster.
92 posted on 12/19/2003 5:24:06 PM PST by GunnyB (Once a Marine, Always a Marine)
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To: IGOTMINE
Wow - what a blast from the past... I too, was an 03 grunt (0341) and had a vision as well - in Lebanon in '76. I figured that I'd better get some better training than lobbing mortar rounds or I'd end up as a rent-a-cop or worse. I went counterintelligence (0211) and had a much better time!

I wanted to get back in (I did work ups for chasing Abu Nidal back when our "computer" was a grease pencil & a map), but the recruiter just laughed and gave me some bumper stickers....
93 posted on 12/19/2003 5:30:23 PM PST by GunnyB (Once a Marine, Always a Marine)
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To: cookcounty
Is an E-4 an NCO, now? When I was in (the '71-'73 dark ages), I was an E4, but they didn't consider us NCOs.

Two kinds of E-4 in the Army, Corporals and Specialists. In those "dark ages", and until fairly recently, the AF also had dual E-4 ranks, Senior Airman and Sergeant. Now they only have Sr. Amn, and the E-5 is a staff sergeant. In fact that far back they may have only had the sergeant rank. Even though I go back that far, maybe because I go back that far, I can't remember. See: Enlisted Ranks and Officer Ranks

94 posted on 12/19/2003 5:34:54 PM PST by El Gato (Federal Judges can twist the Constitution into anything.. Or so they think.)
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To: Ispy4u
I wonder if Kevin Bacon's name was on that list?
95 posted on 12/19/2003 5:38:38 PM PST by rabidralph (Liberals are the appendix in the world's body.)
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To: El Gato
Corporals are non-comissioned officers.

The vast majority of E-4s in the Army are specialists, but there are a lot of CPLs and they are NCOs.
96 posted on 12/19/2003 6:32:16 PM PST by Ispy4u
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To: rabidralph
What has he done lately?
97 posted on 12/19/2003 6:35:40 PM PST by Ispy4u
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To: Ispy4u
Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon. I was wondering if they managed to connect Saddam to Kevin Bacon during their analysis.
98 posted on 12/19/2003 7:00:59 PM PST by rabidralph (Liberals are the appendix in the world's body.)
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To: GunnyB
counterinsurgency troops? we are talking M.I. , inscom, ect.
in a firefight i'd want a jarhead in the foxhole with me first. but charts and graphs ? i'll take my coke bottle glassed analyst buddies back in INSCOM. FSA 1st ops bn. woohoo!
99 posted on 12/19/2003 7:30:33 PM PST by gdc61
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To: El Gato
Can always do the direct commission, on in the case of intel, direct warrant
100 posted on 12/19/2003 7:40:46 PM PST by MindBender26 (For more news as it happens, stay tuned to your local FReeper Network station)
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