Is the Death Penalty Morally Equal to Abortion? Bishops Preach Politics Rather than Gospel Truth

CCI NEWS SERVICE ^ | 12/16/2003 | Dr. Brian Kopp

[sinkspur]

But a Catholic may not believe the death penalty is, per se, wrong.

LOL! Thanks for that.

[madprof98]

But a Catholic may not believe the death penalty is, per se, wrong.

In your world, where the pope isn't even Catholic enough.

[madprof98]

All faithful Catholics today oppose the death penalty. See this site, which is obviously not "Catholic" enough for the cafeteria crowd here but which accurately reflects the teachings of the Holy Father and the Holy Catholic Church--not to mention the gospel of Jesus Christ.

[LibertarianInExile]

What the Pope says is what the Roman Catholic Church is.

You might disagree--and I might disagree--but we don't get to interpret what Catholicism is. That, in the Catholic church, is up to the Pope. Regardless of what Aquinas, Luther, or Jesus said.

I'm NOT saying the Roman Catholic church isn't Christian, merely that the Pope is its leader on earth and if you want to be Catholic that's who you follow unquestioningly. No fair pretending to be Catholic and acting like you get to vote on it or something.

[Salvation]

Bumping this thread. Excellent.

[madprof98]

Note the similar line of reasoning on the part of leftish leaning "Catholics" on the topic of abortion.

[Frank_2001]

Well I'm glad to hear she was excommunicated, but you'd never know by the way the liberal media fawns over everything she says.

[Maximilian]

What the Pope says is what the Roman Catholic Church is. You might disagree--and I might disagree--but we don't get to interpret what Catholicism is.

Obviously you're not Catholic. What you describe is just not the case. In some sense the pope has no more ability to decide what is Catholic than you or I. In fact, he is even more bound to uphold the constant teaching of his predecessors because he takes an oath to faithfully hand down what he has received and to change nothing of the faith.

the Pope is its leader on earth and if you want to be Catholic that's who you follow unquestioningly.

This is a common misunderstanding about the Catholic faith. No one is required to follow the pope "unquestioningly." Normally that is a safe thing to do, even if it's not required, but there have been other historical circumstances like our own in which it has been necessary to cling to the Catholic faith when the pope went astray. His personal opinions in particular, for example on the death penalty, have no obligatory force whatsoever.

[LibertarianInExile]

I'm sorry, but you are wrong. The Pope is Christ's representative on Earth for Catholics, and whether you want to say he's bound or not by Catholic past doctrine, he is the one who decides what he is bound by. You don't get to pretend otherwise because you disagree with him if you're a true Catholic without actually turning from the Church. You're simply wrong.

From the catholic.org online Catholic Catechism glossary:

POPE: The successor of St. Peter as Bishop of Rome and Supreme Pontiff of the universal Catholic Church. The pope exercises a primacy of authority as Vicar of Christ and shepherd of the whole Church; he receives the divine assistance promised by Christ to the Church when he defines infallibly a doctrine of faith or morals (880-882). See Papacy.

PAPACY: The supreme jurisdiction and ministry of the pope as shepherd of the whole Church. As successor of St. Peter, and therefore Bishop of Rome and Vicar of Christ, the pope is the perpetual and visible principle of unity in faith and communion in the Church (882). See Pope.

From the Vatican's web site, Catechism of the Catholic Church, PART ONE, SECTION TWO, CHAPTER THREE, ARTICLE 9, Paragraph 4. Christ's Faithful - Hierarchy, Laity, Consecrated Life:

890 The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium's task to preserve God's people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church's shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. The exercise of this charism takes several forms:

891 "The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals. . . . The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium," above all in an Ecumenical Council.418 When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as being divinely revealed,"419 and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of faith."420 This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.421

892 Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles, teaching in communion with the successor of Peter, and, in a particular way, to the bishop of Rome, pastor of the whole Church, when, without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in a "definitive manner," they propose in the exercise of the ordinary Magisterium a teaching that leads to better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and morals. To this ordinary teaching the faithful "are to adhere to it with religious assent" which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it.

You want to pretend you can doubt THE representative of Christ on Earth, go ahead. But don't pretend you're a Roman Catholic. Obviously, whatever religion YOU happen to be, you talk out of your ass a lot, as proven by your prior post. Read a Baltimore Catechism once in a while. You might learn something about the faith. If you are Catholic, maybe you should convert to some Protestant sect so you get to cherrypick dogma you like in the event you disagree with church teaching, but the Catholic Church doesn't let you make decisions on matters of faith, the Pope does. If the Pope says it's a matter of faith that Catholics must protest the death penalty or abortion or dogwalking, IT IS.

[infowarrior]

The Ten Commandments, when read in the original Hebrew/Aramaic are quite specific. This specificity was lost in the translation to other languages, and contributes to the confusion...

the infowarrior

[stands2reason]

Thanks, but you didn't answer my question....

[RobbyS]

It seems to that if anything not clear it is the teaching of the Church on the death penalty.

[razorbak]

Anyone who cannot differentiate morally between the killing of an innocent baby and the execution of a heinous criminal has his moral head up his a$$. The same God who condemned the murder of the innocent mandated the execution of murderers.

The sanctity of life is upheld by prohibiting abortion. It is also upheld by the practice of capital punishment.

(Psa 139:13 KJV) For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.(Psa 139:14 KJV) I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.(Psa 139:15 KJV) My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.(Psa 139:16 KJV) Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

(Luke 1:39 KJV) And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda; (Luke 1:40 KJV) And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth. (Luke 1:41 KJV) And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: (Luke 1:42 KJV) And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.(Luke 1:43 KJV) And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?(Luke 1:44 KJV) For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

(Psa 106:37 KJV) "Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils,(Psa 106:38 KJV) And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood. (Psa 106:39 KJV) Thus were they defiled with their own works, and went a whoring with their own inventions. (Psa 106:40 KJV) Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance."

(Gen 9:6 KJV) "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man."

(Num 35:31 KJV) "Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death. (Num 35:32 KJV) And ye shall take no satisfaction for him that is fled to the city of his refuge, that he should come again to dwell in the land, until the death of the priest. (Num 35:33 KJV) So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it."

The Pope and RCC bishops are right on abortion because they agree with Scripture on this issue, and they are wrong on capital punishment because they contradict Scripture on that issue.

[ThePythonicCow]

Thanks for the note of appreciation.

[Gil4]

Bump (so I can enter the fray later)

[Indie]

Did I read the article? HEII no! The entire question is ludicrous.

[narses]

If you hear from the good Doc, wish him a Merry Christmas please.

[ThePythonicCow]

And the reason they think Moral Judgments are Wrong is that they recognize the power of such judgments, and they fear that power.

If you must sail the oceans in boats with no rudders, you learn that the greatest disasters happen to the most powerful boats. If all boats are rudderless, then the only safe boat is the child's boat in a bathtub.

Without faith in the guidance of a higher power, they are without a rudder.

Hence they fear power. They fear the military, they fear America, they fear George W Bush, they fear capitalism and industry, they fear freedom, they fear Moral Judgment, and they fear Faith itself, the one thing that would enpower them and enable them to overcome their fear. And for them, as for you and me, hatred, anger and loathing are the usual emotions that follow upon and cover up fear.

Without knowledge of good and evil and lacking the rudder of faith, all things powerful become all things dangerous. And since "safe" versus "risky" is their substitute for Good versus Evil, anything that is powerful is Bad.

Hitler and Bush become indistinguishable.

The Leftists are just as intelligent and learned as us, their emotions just as primal as ours, and their bodies just as strong. The critical difference is that they have lost their spirit.

[stands2reason]

They have no use for moral/ethical distinctions because then they'd have to deal with the evil within. They are beyond self-examination. All that they think they need is a vague "do- gooder" attitude while they ignore the way they really treat others.

Voting for social welfare nets is the extent of their "goodness." That's all they have to do to prove to the world (and themselves) that they "care." They don't want to take any longer dealing with their own morality than it takes to pull that "D" lever.

Fear, and avoidance and denial to themselves.

Have you ever read any books by Oliver Sacks? He's a neurologist who has chronicled the most interesting case studies of brain injuries in the US. (He wrote "Awakenings"--Robin Williams played him in the movie) What I found particularly interesting is that a certain number of his patients were sometimes particularly exasperating to deal with because the nature of their brain injuries left them completely unaware that they were injured. While they are obviously physiological causes of denial, it was interesting to see the way their minds worked.

If you do choose to read him, I recommend "The Man Who Mistook his Wife for a Hat" to start. Each chapter is a different patient, each one fascinating in his own way. You should be able to find them in the science section of your library.

[ThePythonicCow]

I quite agree. See my FR home page ThePythonicCow, such as the items about rat poop and do-gooders.

And yes, Rats are completely unaware that they [are] injured.

Your analogy with brain injuries is apt. I haven't read Sacks, though his books look familiar. At one point, I spent some time with such brain and mind studies. I tended more toward the conceptual -- Sacks appears to be more anecdotal in his presentation than I would have preferred.

Good stuff, however you choose to come at it.