Milosevic's trial. Has Clark commited perjury?

UN ^

[Headfulofghosts]

This is from Milosevic's trial, with Presidential Canidate Wes Clark. I find this very interesting, what Milsosevic has to say.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] So I believe it is not in dispute that I said to you, General Clark, that these were terrorists, murderers, rapists, killers of their own kind. Is that right or is that not right? Was that clear or was that not clear?

A. You did say that to me in October of 1998, and that is the phrase you used. I remember you using it in English, "murderers, rapists, and killers of their own kind."

Q. And terrorists; right? Terrorists first and foremost.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, please put this picture up. These are men in KLA uniforms, and I hope that you will recognise the patch on the sleeve, the KLA patch. It can be seen on the left arm. So there is no doubt that this is the KLA. We see this too.

Ten years ago we were arming and equipping the worst elements of the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan - drug traffickers, arms smugglers, anti-American terrorists… we did same thing with the KLA, which is tied in with every known middle and far eastern drug cartel. Interpol, Europol, and nearly every European intelligence and counter-narcotics agency has files open on drug syndicates that lead right to the KLA, and right to Albanian gangs in this country. Furthermore, the KLA was involved in sex slaves. Furthermore, they were supported by Osama Bin Laden. Furthemore, two of the 9-11 hijackers, Saudi's Al Hamzmi and Al Midian " traveled" to Bosnia around the same time frame, meaning we trained them.

JUDGE MAY: That is unnecessary. Remove that picture, please. This is nothing to do with the evidence. Return the picture, please, to the accused.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, these men in KLA uniforms, I mean, this man is holding two Serb heads that had been cut off. Is that confirmation? I mean, are these allies of General Clark's infantry in Kosovo?

JUDGE MAY: Now, let us deal with this in a way which is relevant. The picture is not relevant. You can give evidence in due course about. You can call the witness, and you can produce these photographs if there is relevance of them, providing you establish that, but we have to deal with the general's evidence. Now, there hasn't been any dispute that you made these comments to him.

MR. NICE: Your Honour, if the Chamber's concerned about the production of that photograph and the effect it may have unsupported by any relevance, it could give consideration to redacting that part of the transcript. It's a matter entirely for the Chamber. We don't press you one way or the other.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE MAY: We'll consider that.

Yes, Mr. Milosevic. What is the point that you're trying to establish as far as the witness's evidence is concerned? You can ask other witnesses, you can call other evidence about the behaviour of the KLA, and indeed you've done so. I seem to remember a very great deal of 1 cross-examination about it already. If you wish, you can call some evidence, relevant evidence during the case, but I don't think we're going to take it any further with this witness.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, the KLA was a terrorist group.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] Q. Isn't that right, General Clark? Is that in dispute or is that not in dispute?

JUDGE MAY: It may be a matter for us, but it's not a matter that arises from the witness's evidence.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness is talking about measures of repression against the KLA, and you see what kind of killersthey are. I have yet another photograph here, a group of 15 of them, with 13 severed heads. This is also not relevant for you; is that right, Mr. May?

JUDGE MAY: That is quite right. Quite right. You can call all 15 this evidence in due course. We are just dealing with a part of the evidence which is given by the general. The generalised evidence about the behaviour of the KLA, if it's relevant, you can give it in due course. Now, time is limited. If you want to ask him about the conversations, of course you can.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The general -- well, I mean the general is speaking in general terms about the KLA, and you did not allow me to show a picture yesterday of the three Musketeers where he is like D'Artagnan with the leaders of these terrorists.

MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Q. General, you actually commanded these formations, these units that cut off Serb heads.

JUDGE MAY: Now, time is very limited. You're plainly not following instructions you've been given. Your cross-examination is limited to what the witness has given in evidence. The behaviour of the KLA is not relevant to that. What you said about the KLA most certainly is relevant. You've asked questions about it and what other things you've said about it, you've said to the general, that is relevant, and you can ask and indeed you should. If you challenge it, you should deal with it, as you did with the general, General Naumann.

THE WITNESS: Your Honour, may I just have -- ask the permission of the Court to clarify that I did not command the KLA. We never gave assistance to the KLA. We did not direct the KLA. We did not assist itsformation. And I met with the leaders of the Kosovar Albanians atRambouillet as part of a normal diplomatic effort in the same way in which I met with Serbs at the discussions at Dayton, that's all. Thank you for allowing me to insert that for the record.

Clark is commiting perjury here.

[Headfulofghosts]

SPECTATOR (UK) - HOW WE TRAINED AL-QA'AEDA

Indeed, for all the Clinton officials' concern about Islamic extremists in the Balkans, they continued to allow the growth and movement of mujahedin forces in Europe through the 1990s. In the late 1990s, in the run-up to Clinton's and Blair's Kosovo war of 1999, the USA backed the Kosovo Liberation Army against Serbia. According to a report in the Jerusalem Post in 1998, KLA members, like the Bosnian Muslims before them, had been 'provided with financial and military support from Islamic countries', and had been 'bolstered by hundreds of Iranian fighters or mujahedin ...[some of whom] were trained in Osama bin Laden' s terrorist camps in Afghanistan'. It seems that, for all its handwringing, the USA just couldn't break the pact with the devil.



The Times, US Alarmed as Mujahidins Join Kosovo Rebels, Nov 26, 1998
The Scotsman, US Tackles Islamic Militancy in Kosovo, Nov 30, 1998
AP, Bin Laden Operated Terrorist Network Based in Albania, Nov 29, 1998
Jerusalem Post, Kosovo Seen as New Islamic Bastion, Sep 14, 1998
Sunday Times, Bin Laden Opens a New Terrorist Base in Albania, Nov 29, 1998
Sunday Times, Iranians Move in (Kosovo Link), Mar 22, 1998NYT, Whispers of New Tyranny in Kosovo
Times, Harvest Massacre Blamed on Kosovo Guerillas
Independent, UK, Organized Crime Gangs Rule Kosovo
NYT, Chaos and Intolerance Now Reign in Kosovo
LA Times, Kosovo Battles Resurgence of Organized Crime
WP, Kosovo Rebels Make Their Own Laws
Express (UK) Albanian Mafia, KLA and Kosovo Aid
NYT, Rebels Are Taking Charge of Kosovo
Reagan.Com, The Story of Commander Remi
NYT, Kosovo's Rebels Accused of Executions in the Ranks
WSWS, Kosovo "freedom fighters" financed by organised crime
NYT, In Kosovo, Gangs Dim the Luster of a 'Greater Albania'
Guardian, Old Serbs Become Terror Targets
Guardian, This is What Will Happen To Us All
Amnesty International Urges KLA Leader to Stop Human Rights Abuses
Start, New Paramilitary Army ready in Macedonia, June 2, 2000
Bota Sot, KLA Secret Service Persecuted Albanian Politicians, July 11, 2000
The Times, Violence Feared As KLA Fund Dries Up, July 24, 2000
ADN, Kosovar Refugees Fear Being Murdered by KLA, July 13, 2000
Reuters, Armed Albanian Group Enigma in South Serbia, Aug 7, 2000
Reuters, Former KLA Members Face War Crimes Probe, Aug 9, 2000REUTERS, Former Kosovo Guerrillas Arrested in Gang Probe, Aug 25, 00
UNMIK, Ten Kosovo Albanians arrested in anti-crime operation, Aug, 25, 00


General Clark, since you claim that these individuals who carried
out these acts of terrorism are not terrorists, although several
resolutions of the Security Council refer to terrorism in Kosovo, you
nevertheless claim that they are not terrorists. Please answer a question: Is your election campaign financed by Albanian circles including the KLA?

JUDGE MAY: That's a totally improper question, totally improper
and irrelevant. General, you do not have to answer this sort of thing.

CLARK: I think it's important that I do answer it, and the answer is no.

Yet there is this, which has not been reported in the media. I expect the main stream press to pick this up in a day or two. The problem is with moveon.org. It's a left leaning contribution website. You know, the one that has been running anti-bush ads? It's been seeking contributions outside of American borders. Both Clark and Dean are named on international fundraising websites suggesting donations to MoveOn.org. Basically Political websites from London to Portugal to Montreal are directing their citizens to stop the American president George Bush by donating to MoveOn.org.

[expatpat]

We never gave assistance to the KLA

Looks like perjury to me.

[OldFriend]

Clearly the wrong man is in prison. Heaven help us for that travesty that was perpetrated by X42 and those in congress who supported him at that time. Republicans AND democrats.

[Headfulofghosts]

The BBC and the London Sunday Times have run stories containing damning evidence of how the Clinton administration created a pretext for declaring war against the Milosevic regime in Serbia by sponsoring the KLA.

Britain's BBC2 television channel ran a documentary March 12 by Alan Little entitled "Moral Combat: NATO At War". The program contained damning evidence of how Clinton sponsored the separatist Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), then pressed this decision on its European allies. The revelations in the documentary were reinforced by an accompanying article in the Sunday Times.

Little conducted frank interviews with leading players in the Kosovo conflict, the most pertinent being those with US Secretary of State Madeline Albright, Assistant Secretary of State James Rubin, US Envoy Richard Holbrooke, William Walker, head of the UN Verification Mission, and KLA leader Hashim Thaci. These were supplemented by many others.

[Headfulofghosts]

Slobadan Milsosovic, is indeed guilty, but the US secretly supported those paramilitary organizations, which commited attrocities also, the KLA, which included two of the 9-11 hijackers.

[eureka!]

Thanks for the link. Weasley Clark is so Hillary. Compare his recollection in these two passages:

Q. And that first working day, the Muslim delegation proposed that Republika Srpska consist of 30 something per cent, 34, 35 per cent of the territory. Do you recollect that? A. Your Honour, I have no specific recollection of that particular matter. The reason is that I may or may not have been in for the entire duration of the meeting. At the time, I was involved in not only participating in much of what Ambassador Holbrooke was doing but also trying to finish the negotiation of military annex with other NATO member countries who would have to enforce it. So I just don't have any specific recollection of that fact. I would have to consult other sources, but it's not something that I remember. And it's not in my witness statement. I'm not testifying about it or whatever; I just don't remember it."

Compare that with this--

Q.....Why would I stay with you and Kruzel during the break? That is not true simply. JUDGE MAY: Wait. Now, let there be an answer to this allegation. 10 THE WEASEL, ER, WITNESS: Your Honour, there was a break. Ambassador Holbrooke did get up to go to the toilet. I can't account for every single member of the accused's delegation in the room. The accused was seated in a -- in an armchair at the head of the table, and he stayed in the room at least momentarily. And as he got up from the armchair and moved to the side, I went over and approached him. And I was ccompanied by Assistant Secretary Joseph Kruzel. And it was a break that was taken right after the period in which he had announced that he could hold a referendum that would ensure that the Pale Serbs agreed with whatever peace terms were being proposed. And I simply continued the discussion with him and asked him, "You say you've had so much influence on these people. If you had so much influence, how did you permit General Mladic to kill all those people at Srebrenica?" He looked at me and said, "Well, General Clark, I told him not to do it, but he didn't listen to me."

The sooner Clark is relegated to a political footnote, the better, IMHO....

[Incorrigible]

Balkans Bump!

Related Thread:

Milosevic attacked Clark's personal character by citing criticism of him by Gen. Hugh Shelton

[Incorrigible]

Hmmmm. Slobo is coming off a little kooky here.

"Ten years ago we were arming and equipping the worst elements of the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan"

Who's this "we" he's referring to?  If this is a direct quote from him it doesn't make sense.  If he said "The U.S." or "The West" or something along those lines (though I wouldn't necessarily agree) I would understand the statement.

I'm familiar with the photos though I would suggest no-one post them since they tend to cause threads to disappear.

He seems to be making a direct mockery of the court by showing these photos while Clark is sitting in the witness chair.  I would prefer he make a direct mockery of the witness however.  However, I presume there more to this with 2 days worth of testimony, there's more to come.

[Hoplite]

Go back to Serbia.

Thanks.

[Incorrigible]

Go back to Serbia.

Oh c'mon Hoplite.  You already know I've never been there.  I don't even know any Serbs beyond the aliases of the denizens of FR.

I'm simply an Irish Catholic American who wondered at the time why the leftists weren't protesting the bombing of Yugoslavia. I can remember vividly how Clark had been caught in several lies at the time of the bombing in Kosovo.  There are threads after threads debunking him in real time here on FR.

I'm no fan of unrepentant communist thugs but that doesn't mean I want this world court to determine what is just.

This is worse than the OJ trial.

[Hoplite]

You're right, this is worse than OJ - there African Americans lost their common sense and sided with a murderer.

Here, with Slobo, it's supposedly staunch Americans and conservatives siding with a murderous thug.

Whatever - these threads are freakshows of the ignorant and disingenuous. Take me off your ping list and pretend you don't know me.

[Headfulofghosts]

The " We supplied" line comes from both a DEA agent and intelligence agent it was them talking about our relationship with the KLA.

[Incorrigible]

Actually it was you or maybe mark502inf that posted a link of information on the mass graves found in Yugoslavia that I found quite interesting and countered my understanding of the facts.  I like reading your counter opinion and value it.  It may even help me see the light from your perspective.

I'll honor your wish to be removed from the ping list but know that I consider your research on Fusion top notch and lends considerable creditability to your opinion.

[Right Wing Professor]

Here, with Slobo, it's supposedly staunch Americans and conservatives siding with a murderous thug.

One can condemn Milosevic and still maintain this 'trial' is a joke. In fact, it's done for Milosevic what Milosevic could never have done for himself - it's made him look like a gutsy underdog. It's the single best argument for letting Saddam be tried by the Iraqis; because it's inconceivable the Iraqis could do a worse job than this kangaroo court.

[Incorrigible]

Yep.  I understand the accusations, I just don't understand why he's using "we" when speaking about the arming of the Mujahadeen. 

I can understand an American critic of our policy at the time saying "We armed the Mujahadeen" but not Slobo saying.

Perhaps something was lost in the translation.

[Headfulofghosts]

Who got him to the Hague? It wasn't the UN? It was the US, and you know how? It was money.

[Incorrigible]

Well, that much I think we all agree on.

[eureka!]

True, Slobo was a murderous thug. Opposing the fraudulent "War in Kosovo" does not mean you sided with him. My objection to the war was founded on the lies and manipulation to cause the "war", which I am sure was just politically expedient for one of the most corrupt administrations that this great nation has ever suffered as a matter of coincidence. A "war" where the predicates therefore were fraudulent (100,000 mass graves), the tactics were obscene (bombing the civilian infrastructure of Serbia), the results were distorted (34,000 sorties--maybe a hundred true hard military targets destroyed) and the US/NATO allied with the terrorist, pimping, drug-dealing KLA. Just my humble opinion. (Me, I'm just an Irish American news/political junkie, never been to Serbia and don't know any Serbians)...

[greenwolf]

Clearly the wrong man is in prison. Heaven help us for that travesty that was perpetrated by X42 and those in congress who supported him at that time. Republicans AND democrats.

If Slick Clinton wasn't the antichrist then, as Fats Waller used to say, he'll have to do until the real thing comes along.

[Headfulofghosts]

I guess what I want answered, is what really happened in Kosovo, who did we really support. And hell, we still don't got an exit strategy! That's to the Dem's. What's life there like now? What does the population feel? And I still don't quite understand, how Clark can say that there was cleansing in Kosovo, and not in Iraq. I in no way support Miliososiv, I just want the truth to come out, and I know for one that we were told one thing when in truth something else happened. Another thing I want answered, IN Bill Gerst's " Breakdown" he presents info in the classified 9-11 report, that two of the 9-11 hijackers, Saudis went to the Balkans in the mid 90's. What were they doing? Did we train them? I want answers.

[eureka!]

Don't hold your breath for the answers. Hopefully, the truth will out...

[Viking2002]

Wouldn't that be great if the Klinton's hand-picked baggage boy gets the smackdown put on him by the very court they'd like us all to answer to? Kinda poetic.......

[Hoplite]

It's made him look like a gutsy underdog if you don't follow the trial or if you confine yourself to reading the commentary of his sycophants.

He's getting his ass handed to him - he's just busy playing for an audience that thinks the trial is about something else and has been girding itself for the inevitable with fantasies of preordained verdicts.

How many other trials are you aware of where the defendant has confirmed one of the charges against himself in legal documents submitted to another court? It's a circus, but here the clowns are in the audience cheering on Bozo in the big ring for all their worth.

As to trying him domestically, Serbia is still attempting to get rid of Slobo's vile influence in the courts and civil society - not one of his major co-conspirators has been indicted and tried at home, so what is your basis for calling for a domestic trial? Were he tried domestically, those members of the Military and Police complicit in his crimes who are still in positions of power would make short work of the trial - just look what they did to the last Prime Minister.

There's no satisfying the critics, so screw 'em.

[Hoplite]

Bush the elder told Milosevic in no uncertain terms that he would get bombed if he jacked around in Kosovo the way he was in Croatia and Bosnia.

By the Spring of 1999, he got his due.

As to the criticisms of the war, they are similar to those levied against our forces for their conduct in Afghanistan and Iraq - they don't hold up under scrutiny, and if the Serbs didn't want to get bombed, they should have gotten rid of Slobo after seeing what happened to their Bosnian Serb relatives in 1995 for much the same reasons.

[A. Pole]

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness is talking about measures of repression against the KLA, and you see what kind of killers they are. I have yet another photograph here, a group of 15 of them, with 13 severed heads. This is also not relevant for you; is that right, Mr. May?

JUDGE MAY: That is quite right. Quite right. [...]

Show trial bump.

[Burkeman1]

Very interesting! Indeed! Thanks and I will bookmark this.

[eureka!]

Points taken, although the argument that similar charges have been levied as to Afghanistan/Iraq is disingenuous. There were opposite tactics there, i.e. the infrastructure (as it was) was preserved, not targeted, and intel was developed and pursued as to purely military targets. Nor did we delist a terrorist group and ally with them. Lastly, there was the timing of the 'Toon bringing it to a head (pardon the Monica pun). If Bush the Elder warned Slobo, it was seven years earlier, what took so long? Thus, many questions remain....

[A. Pole]

it's made him look like a gutsy underdog.

Well he IS a gutsy underdog. If a lone man accused by the mightest military alliance in the history, villified by the mass media all over the world, betrayed and sold by the coup leaders in his homeland, "judged" by his enemies and waging a successful defence is not a gutsy underdog then NOBODY is.

[A. Pole]

True, Slobo was a murderous thug.

This is a claim by the Muslim extremists and NATO war propaganda. Why the evidence is so hard to find (all those rape/death camps etc ...)? Maybe because the claim is false?

The simplest explanation can be the right one in this case.

[eureka!]

Good point. I should have said "Even assuming Slobo was a murderous thug," . If you get the chance, go to the link and read Weasel Clark's testimony. The gist is the KLA was acting in self defense, quite the innocents. It really is something to behold...

[Burkeman1]

Considering it was Clinton and the Clinton media during the Kosovo war- a lot of conservatives have a hard time believing in these atrocity allegations especially since no hard data is ever presented by our government to this date on what happened in Kosovo and on who killed who. I think it is only natural. Milosevis ain't no saint- neither were the KLA. I think you can see why people can be suspicious.

[Andy from Beaverton]

We never gave assistance to the KLA. We did not direct the KLA. We did not assist itsformation.

Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them. The direction in the war turned in favor of the KLA in the last few weeks when the US military started to support and coordinate with the KLA. No questions asked.

[MadelineZapeezda]

I mean, this man is holding two Serb heads that had been cut off. Is that confirmation? I mean, are these allies of General Clark's infantry in Kosovo?

Powerful question.........it was never answered.

I have yet another photograph here, a group of 15 of them, with 13 severed heads. This is also not relevant for you; is that right, Mr. May?

[Verginius Rufus]

Sounds like some people were drinking too much ice tea.

This is a European court. Do they forbid perjury?

[Hoplite]

Look at the literature describing American bombing of Iraqi sewers, hospitals, and water treatment facilities from the SE Asian wargames circa '91 - similar idiocy is out there decrying our latest efforts.

The bombing of bridges, POL plants, and military infrastructure (arms factories) is a legitimate military activity. We did it to the Serbs. They need to get over it.

And I'd remind you of our buying off segments of the Taleban and turning them into Northern Alliance troops with petty cash - they're more narco terrorist than the KLA, yet we had no problem utilizing them for the greater good. The similarities don't stop there - we have allied ourselves with the Kurds, where a similar situation exists. The Turks aren't all that happy about it, but then FR isn't overrun with people berating us for joining forces with the PPK the way it is with those decrying our supposed marriage to the KLA. Go figure.

As to what took so long, it's just embarrasing to ask. Same-same with what took so long for us to take out Saddam and why did we wait for 9-11 before taking on Osama and the Taleban. It's a loaded question.

[sport]

Only when he testified.

When does clark, or any democrat for that matter, lie ?

Only on days that end in "y".

[wny]

I'm sure he was legally accurate.

[Hoplite]

If you didn't like Clinton nor the media, then you should have listened to Bob Dole.

The data is out there. You just have to look for it like I did rather than willingly believing the transparent idiocy that's posted on some of these threads.

Do you expect the State Dept to give a full accounting for Saddam's victims? If not, does that somehow imply that attempts to minimize their number automatically have merit?

Graves registration isn't the State Dept's job, neither in the Middle East nor Balkans.

[Burkeman1]

Yes- it isn't but it does somewhat become their job- or least the administrations job that put our guys in harms way and our tax money at expenditure- to justify such sacrifices in our interests, even if we wanted to just be heroic and stop a genocide in the making!

I have not seen it. I have seen continued persecution of Serbs and other non Muslem minorities in Kosovo and even Southern Serbia and Macedonia while our troops do absolutely nothing in camp Bondsteel.

[Ronly Bonly Jones]

Let's see. American general, gibbering Nazi baboon genocidist disguised as a Serb. American general, gibbering Nazi baboon genocidist disguised as a Serb. Which one is committing perjury?

I'm putting my money on the baboon.

[A. Pole]

Do they forbid perjury?

They encourage it!

[eureka!]

"Sounds like some people were drinking too much ice tea."

LOL. I thought the same thing too...

[Hoplite]

Over 5,000 of Slobodan's Kosovar Albanian victims have been found, to include over 800 buried in Serbia proper in a scheme reminiscent of the Srebrenica 'hide the bodies' debacle - and over 800,000 were forced over the borders into Albania and Macedonia during the war.

How much proof do you need, but perhaps the more relevant question is what is the point in asking for proof when you merely close your eyes when it is delivered to you?

You have seen persecution in Kosovo of Serbs - but it did not require 10 years of economic sanctions nor military action to bring it under control as was the case with the persecution of Kosovo's Albanians.

We took care of the bigger evil. That you refuse to recognize it as such does not lessen its iniquity.

[pgyanke]

I've read your posts on this thread and you are wrong on a number of points. However, as it's the end of the day, I'll tackle them tomorrow...

[A. Pole]

Over 5,000 of Slobodan's Kosovar Albanian victims have been found, to include over 800 buried in Serbia proper in a scheme reminiscent of the Srebrenica 'hide the bodies' debacle - and over 800,000 were forced over the borders into Albania and Macedonia during the war.

Why your nose is getting longer ? Either way you should provide your "evidence" to the Hague tribunal - they badly need it.

[Burkeman1]

I don't "refuse" to recognize it. I just don't know whom to believe.

[Hoplite]

What a cryptic response.

Are you being offered two different sets of mutually exclusive realities or something?

[Burkeman1]

I just read materials that both are "conservative" but have very different stories to tell. NR, Commentary, Weekly Standard, have different angles from VDare, AntiWar.Com, TAC, and Chronicles, and others.

I have a very jaundiced eye.

[Hoplite]

And you are left with contradictory viewpoints?

What does you jaundiced eye tell you? Hold nothing true and thus be afforded the opportunity to attack other's positions without the necessity to defend one's own?

Step up to the plate, Burkeman - it's pointless to do all that reading if you can't arrive at a decision as to what's going on in the world.