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CA: A plumbers' pipe dream
OC Register ^ | 12/23/03 | Op/Ed

Posted on 12/23/2003 10:33:33 AM PST by NormsRevenge

Edited on 04/14/2004 10:06:33 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger won office in large part on a promise to reduce the anti-business climate fostered by recalled Gov. Gray Davis. A prime example of that climate is the Davis administration's bureaucratic ban on the use of plastic pipe in housing construction, an issue we have written about for years.


(Excerpt) Read more at 2.ocregister.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Editorial; Politics/Elections; US: California
KEYWORDS: calgov2002; pex; pipedream; plasticpipe; plumbers

1 posted on 12/23/2003 10:33:33 AM PST by NormsRevenge
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To: *calgov2002
.
2 posted on 12/23/2003 10:34:00 AM PST by NormsRevenge (Semper Fi ........ Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays ........)
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To: NormsRevenge; Carry_Okie; forester; sasquatch; B4Ranch; SierraWasp; hedgetrimmer; christie; ...
Short list.
3 posted on 12/23/2003 10:38:47 AM PST by farmfriend ( Isaiah 55:10,11)
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To: NormsRevenge
Gray Davis was in the pocket of Big Plumbing. Just one of his many corruptions, petty and nonpetty, that Schwarzenegger has to unravel.
4 posted on 12/23/2003 10:41:30 AM PST by John Jorsett
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To: farmfriend
BTTT!!!!!
5 posted on 12/23/2003 10:42:59 AM PST by E.G.C.
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To: NormsRevenge
If the plubmers can't charge you more for using copper pipe instead of plastic, they'll just come up with other ways to charge you more:

Counting the number of plastic $0.69 elbows and $3.99 valves, and estimating the cost at $80 per hour of union plumber time, is left as an exercise for the reader.

6 posted on 12/23/2003 10:43:25 AM PST by mvpel (Michael Pelletier)
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To: mvpel
If the plumbers can't charge you more for using copper pipe instead of plastic, they'll just come up with other ways to charge you more:

The main problem with plastic pipe is that it leaks and is susceptible to damage. There have been many class action suits by HOA's against builders due to plastic plumbing systems, at this point, no manufacturer has come up with a dependable system. Plastic (ABS) is still used for waste systems all over the country, the problem is the water service side. Copper is still the best system out there.

7 posted on 12/23/2003 10:54:08 AM PST by Doomonyou
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To: NormsRevenge; Grampa Dave; SierraWasp; Carry_Okie
I was just reading this in my morning paper!

Arnoold needs to overturn this Davis leftover!
8 posted on 12/23/2003 10:54:49 AM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach (Davis is now out of Arnoold's Office , Bout Time!!!!)
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To: mvpel
Nice visual. YOu have informed me....the reader.

Thank goodness I do not live in Cali. I live in AZ. But we are receiving a lot of Cali transplants here. :)

Must be pretty bad in the People's Republic of California these days eh?
9 posted on 12/23/2003 10:55:22 AM PST by AbsoluteJustice (By the time you read this 100 other Freepers will have posted what I have said here!)
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To: Doomonyou
The new stuff is great.
10 posted on 12/23/2003 11:05:41 AM PST by the gillman@blacklagoon.com (It's not a blanket amnesty, it's amnistia del serape!)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
<IMG SRC="http://www.funkypages.com/plumbers/buttcrack.jpg
11 posted on 12/23/2003 11:05:43 AM PST by Puppage (You may disagree with what I have to say, but I will defend to your death my right to say it)
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To: Puppage

12 posted on 12/23/2003 11:06:20 AM PST by Puppage (You may disagree with what I have to say, but I will defend to your death my right to say it)
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To: Doomonyou
...at this point, no manufacturer has come up with a dependable system.

We haven't had any trouble with CPVC. Ever.

13 posted on 12/23/2003 11:15:01 AM PST by Oberon (What does it take to make government shrink?)
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To: Oberon
...at this point, no manufacturer has come up with a dependable system.

We haven't had any trouble with CPVC. Ever.

OK, that statement was a little overbroad, but most, if not all construction defect plumbing problems are with the plastic systems and not copper.

14 posted on 12/23/2003 11:22:54 AM PST by Doomonyou
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To: Doomonyou
You seem knowledgeble about this issue. Do you know how long this "plastic pipe" ban has been in place?

My home is 15 years old and we have a lot of plastic piping under the sinks. It does make it easier for me to clean "U" pipes or replace the leaky pipes.

In your opinion, which piping is more energy efficient for transporting hot water; plastic or copper? :)

15 posted on 12/23/2003 11:24:14 AM PST by John123 (The Governator is gonna clear a lot of the deadwood in Sacramento!)
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To: Doomonyou
"The main problem with plastic pipe is that it leaks and is susceptible to damage."

Check. Rigid, PVC pipe commonly used in plumbing such as schedule 40 and schedule 80 should not be installed in walls. They were developed for exposed pressure systems such as irrigation. Polyeurathane and polybutalene are better suited for interior pressure plumbing, but still not the equal of copper.

Cheap PVC pipe will become brittle and crack when it ages, especially in hot water or corrosive service. Glue joints will fail. Cheap Home Depot plastic valves aren't worth squat.

California is doing the right thing in this case.

Copper still rules and will last forever...

16 posted on 12/23/2003 11:26:47 AM PST by telebob
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To: Doomonyou
"The main problem with plastic pipe is that it leaks and is susceptible to damage."

Yes, and it gets brittle with age too. I even had a mouse chew a hole in plastic pipe inside a wall. It cost a lot more to fix than metal piping would have cost.

17 posted on 12/23/2003 11:29:44 AM PST by nightdriver
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To: John123
My home is 15 years old and we have a lot of plastic piping under the sinks. It does make it easier for me to clean "U" pipes or replace the leaky pipes.

Right. That is on the waste side, still OK, and I agree, ABS or PVC is easier to work with than cast iron.

In your opinion, which piping is more energy efficient for transporting hot water; plastic or copper? :)

I'm no energy expert, but I would say plastic has a higher R-value than copper. Most exposed copper water lines are required to be insulated these days. Check the photo in post #6, those copper pipes should be insulated (Note the hot water heater has a blanket.)

IMO.

18 posted on 12/23/2003 11:39:30 AM PST by Doomonyou
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To: John123
we have a lot of plastic piping under the sinks.

That's because what you see are for drainage only; the pressurized lines coming into your faucets would be copper or galvanized.

19 posted on 12/23/2003 11:41:16 AM PST by ErnBatavia (Some days you're the windshield; some days you're the bug)
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To: Doomonyou
but most, if not all construction defect plumbing problems are with the plastic systems and not copper

I agree with you that copper is superior, however in the DC Metro area for the past few years there has been a problem with copper pipe springing pinholes and leaking causing quite a bit of damage. It turns out that all that pipe was from one manufacturer but I just wanted to point out that there are some problems with copper.

I will never allow anything but copper in my house though.

20 posted on 12/23/2003 11:54:30 AM PST by Ispy4u
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To: Doomonyou
I have to disagree. While there was one kind of plastic (butadine, I believe) that was inadequate, the CPVC pipes that have been used for hot and cold water over many years are better than copper. In areas with low-pH water, copper pipes etch out after a number of years and develop pinhole leaks that can be very damaging.
21 posted on 12/23/2003 12:35:25 PM PST by expatpat
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To: telebob
Copper still rules and will last forever...

It’s good and relatively easy to work with.

My problem with copper is that I seem to have a copper-magnet embedded in my head. I’ve hit copper pipes with an axe, shovel, sheetrock screws, sawzall, drill, you name it. And you typically end up hunting for 10 minutes trying to find out how to shut it off.

You’d have the same problem with plastic too, but every time I hit one it’s copper.

The only thing worse than inadvertently hitting a regular water line was the time I accidentally nicked a fire sprinkler pipe. I have a new appreciation for the amount of water that can flow through them. Also, the fire sprinkler shut-off valves were chained and locked open so nobody could turn it off for a good hour and a half.

22 posted on 12/23/2003 4:04:47 PM PST by Who dat?
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To: telebob
Copper still rules and will last forever...

not in real hardwater areas, it commonly gets pinhole leaks after a few years...


23 posted on 12/23/2003 4:10:49 PM PST by rolling_stone
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To: Who dat?
I accidentally nicked a fire sprinkler pipe. I have a new appreciation for the amount of

O man that brought back a memory i was a repairman for the red onion mexican resturant chain we were doing some constuction on a store that was open for lunch a mexican speedy buffet and my buddy hit one of the water broadcasters and man it flooded the whole dam resturant in like 10 mins it was hilarios well in retrospect
24 posted on 12/23/2003 5:07:02 PM PST by al baby (Ice cream does not have bones)
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To: Doomonyou
Cross-linked polyethelyene tubing looks to be the key system that the plumbing unions fear. Due to the nature of the tubing and its shape memory, it's possible to create absolutely leak-proof fittings by expanding the tubing around a barbed brass coupler, and then letting it naturally resume its original shape. Check out http://www.mid-americanenergy.com/aquapex.htm for details.

The excellent flexibility and durability of AQUAPEX®, together with the advanced ProPEX® technology, reduce plumbing rough-in times to a fraction of those required for copper.
Plumbers: NOOOOOooooooo!!!!
25 posted on 12/24/2003 7:15:20 AM PST by mvpel (Michael Pelletier)
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To: telebob
PVC and CPVC aren't the only plastic piping systems out there. What about PEX, cross-linked polyethylene? That doesn't become brittle with age, and does not ahve glue joints.
26 posted on 12/24/2003 7:17:48 AM PST by mvpel (Michael Pelletier)
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To: telebob
By the way, could you have a look at the photo in #6 and tell me what the green, black, and white fittings are used for in the upper right quadrant of the photo?
27 posted on 12/24/2003 7:49:17 AM PST by mvpel (Michael Pelletier)
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To: mvpel
"By the way, could you have a look at the photo in #6 and tell me what the green, black, and white fittings are used for in the upper right quadrant of the photo?"

Pop Quiz...

Just looking at it from 20,000 feet away, it looks to me like:

Horizontal Top - Simplex check valve.

Horizontal Bottom - (Attached to the galv. fitting) Possible pressure relief valve.

Verticle Right - Possible air relief / vacuum breaker

White Tank - Hydropnuematic tank for some purpose, possible surge protection or pulse dampening. The main tank may be fed by a reciprocating (piston) type pump or pressure boosting centrifugal pump.

What's the real story?

28 posted on 12/24/2003 12:48:15 PM PST by telebob
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To: telebob
This is the view in the water heater closet at my apartment. I wasn't sure of the real story, which is why I asked. The larger diameter pipe in the back corner of the closet is the riser that goes to the two apartments above us, and you can make out the water meter in the lower left behind the hose bibb.

The green thing is apparently a dial, it has numbers around its perimiter - perhaps a mixing valve? The pipes make a loop between the cold and hot pipes of the water heater.
29 posted on 12/24/2003 5:20:13 PM PST by mvpel (Michael Pelletier)
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