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Immigration and Security
The Wall Street Journal ^ | Wednesday, December 24, 2003

Posted on 12/24/2003 7:50:09 AM PST by presidio9

Edited on 04/22/2004 11:50:42 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge recently committed the political sin of telling the truth. His helpful candor has reopened a much-needed debate over immigration and exposed some of the specious arguments used by those who want to close U.S. borders.


(Excerpt) Read more at online.wsj.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Government; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: aliens; bordersecurity; dhs; homelandsecurity; immigrantlist; immigration; republicanturncoats; tomridge
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The specious link that protectionist have made between illegal immigration and national security is a lot like the one enviornmentalists made with nuclear power plants. Both arguments set off my BS detector in a big way. Neither position is honest. The goals of the enviornmentalists are clear. With immigration, I don't doubt that there are some misguided FReepers who think that they are being patriotic. Others are camoflaging racist opinions. All are pawns of a greater socialist agenda.
1 posted on 12/24/2003 7:50:10 AM PST by presidio9
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To: presidio9
Mr. Ridge volunteered this month that the U.S. needs to "come to grips with the presence of eight to 12 million illegals" now in the country and "afford them some kind of legal status some way."

This has been in the works for a very long time.. funny, in Europe immigration is being pushed by the EU.. the same arguments are being touted.. now the question.. WHO or what group is pushing so hard for this.. and what is the motive.. I'd love to have some insight..

2 posted on 12/24/2003 7:56:03 AM PST by Zipporah
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To: presidio9
Illegal immigrants do have a legal status:

They are committing a crime; therefore they are criminals who are evading arrest. ( unlawful entry into the United States)

They evade paying taxes: therefore they are tax evaders and have broken the law there. ( Tax Evasion)

They undercut Americans on jobs, no matter how supposedly menial and unwanted they jobs are; therefore they are an economic burden.

They use social services to cure the medical problems they have, inflating our social servics budgets to astronomical proportions.

Choose any legal status from the list above, or feel free to add yours.
3 posted on 12/24/2003 8:01:43 AM PST by judicial meanz
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To: Zipporah
Wonderful isn't it?

The cliche that immgrant advocacy groups try to use and push is that illegal pay taxes and they take jobs that noone else would take. This is an utter lie and HOGWASH!

Reference my link below onto how immigration LEGAL AND ILLEGAL is costing this country more than what is being put in. you do the math and tell me if this adds up. we are becoming a welfare nation in which even legal immigration needs reform. WE MUST ONLY allow those legal status IF and ONLY IF they are contributing to this nation and not taking from it.

Interesting read here
http://www.carryingcapacity.org/100000.html
and
http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/
4 posted on 12/24/2003 8:02:50 AM PST by AbsoluteJustice (By the time you read this 100 other Freepers will have posted what I have said here!)
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To: presidio9
Save it, the open borders socialists themselves are losing the battle and shouting "racist" like a Jesse Jackasson only makes you seem as silly as them.
5 posted on 12/24/2003 8:05:04 AM PST by junta
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To: junta
Save it, the open borders socialists themselves

LOL, it is the socialists who want to close the borders. This policy goes hand-in-hand with the highest possible minimum wage. Get a clue.

6 posted on 12/24/2003 8:17:27 AM PST by presidio9 ("By extending the reach of trade, we foster prosperity and the habits of liberty." -Adam Smith)
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To: presidio9
Then the World Trade Centers were blown up by the Daughters of the American Revolution?
7 posted on 12/24/2003 8:18:52 AM PST by henderson field
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To: presidio9
"...devising a process to normalize the status of illegals who are already here.

If they are here ILLEGALY, then they have broken the law and should be DEPORTED! This is not rocket science.

8 posted on 12/24/2003 8:19:55 AM PST by Cobra64 (Babes should wear Bullet Bras - www.BulletBras.net)
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To: presidio9
So am under the assumption that you DO NOT want to close the borders?

Refer to post # 4. Take note the projections for the cost it will run this country in the future in which LEGALS are already costing this country more than Illegals. Read the links and you tell me if you do not want a closed border policy. We are a welfare nation!
9 posted on 12/24/2003 8:21:53 AM PST by AbsoluteJustice (By the time you read this 100 other Freepers will have posted what I have said here!)
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To: henderson field
Then the World Trade Centers were blown up by the Daughters of the American Revolution?

See: This is exactly the type of alarmist nonsense I was talking about. I used to work in the WTC, so don't talk to me about complacency. Opportunists who try to milk tragedies make me sick. How many of the 9/11 terrorists wore a sombrero or had a "z" on the end of his last name?

10 posted on 12/24/2003 8:21:54 AM PST by presidio9 ("By extending the reach of trade, we foster prosperity and the habits of liberty." -Adam Smith)
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To: henderson field
According to the logic of presboy it was a "racist" white man's conspiracy to bring discredit globalism and open borders.
11 posted on 12/24/2003 8:23:33 AM PST by junta
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To: AbsoluteJustice
I am all for abandoning the current welfare state. Do you have any other arguments against immigration? Without the welfare security blanket it is my sincere hope that Americans who refuse to work will find other more socialist countries more hospitible. Problem solved. As for the guy who mows my lawn? I could care less about his accent or what color his skin is.
12 posted on 12/24/2003 8:25:47 AM PST by presidio9 ("By extending the reach of trade, we foster prosperity and the habits of liberty." -Adam Smith)
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To: junta
"According to the logic of presboy it was a "racist" white man's conspiracy to bring discredit globalism and open borders."

Na it was turd world pressure such as that coming from Vicente Fox asking us to legalize all of his criminal illegals over here. Say hey where was good ol Vicente Fox when this country went thru 9/11? I didn't hear one peep from him. Now that it has passed and settled with NO HELP from him or his country he now wants to open talks again about legalizing illegals. What platform does good ol Vicente have to stand on? Trade embargo with the U.S. ?

LOL I would love to see that happen!

13 posted on 12/24/2003 8:26:38 AM PST by AbsoluteJustice (By the time you read this 100 other Freepers will have posted what I have said here!)
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To: presidio9
Let me dispell a myth for you real quick.

Concerning the lie that they are doing jobs American will not do is HOGWASH!!

Remember a time way back when during the Great Depression in which AMERICANS were scraping for work? I am here to tell you now if I without work in my profession do not think for ONE minute second that I would not mow a lawn or hit the local fast food joint to take care of my family! You are putting an American OUT OF WORK by your logic and are the primary reason why myths and lies concerning immigration prevail. They DO NOT PAY TAXES (Fact). WE PAY their healthcare costs (Fact). Next time you complain that your healthcare costs are being driven and your taxes are rising lust look to your front yard and then you will discover why this is! Read my links you may find them interesting!
14 posted on 12/24/2003 8:30:42 AM PST by AbsoluteJustice (By the time you read this 100 other Freepers will have posted what I have said here!)
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To: junta
According to the logic of presboy it was a "racist" white man's conspiracy to bring discredit globalism and open borders.

You need to go back and re-read what I actually said. I listed racism as one of several motivations. The main driving force behind protectionism is a socialist desire to artificially bolster the wages of the manufacturing class.

15 posted on 12/24/2003 8:35:50 AM PST by presidio9 ("By extending the reach of trade, we foster prosperity and the habits of liberty." -Adam Smith)
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To: presidio9
The "prevention through deterrence" strategy has been failing for years. The U.S. more than doubled the number of agents on the Mexican border in the 1990s, but the tactic backfired. The number of illegals increased substantially over that period -- by an estimated 5.5 million -- and more seasonal workers opted to stay longer, thereby reducing the circular migration that used to be the norm.

This statement is dishonest at best. The strategy has been very effective when properly resourced. A simple trip to the San Diego border demonstrates the reality although a doubt anyone from the WSJ has ever been near the border.

It was not the Border Patrol’s strategy that failed but virtually every other element of immigration policy. During the 1990 interior enforcement was shut down. Congress offered further incentives to illegal immigration in the form of a rolling amnesty to millions under the provisions of section 245(i). Federal, State and local government officials could not out pander each other far enough for the special interest money and potential votes.

The critics prefer to toughen their enforcement-only approach that ignores labor market realities, offers no practical recourse to the millions already here illegally, and results in hundreds of migrant deaths every year.

Another dishonest statement. The WSJ ignores our nations national security realities and offers no practical recourse on how a new amnesty will not result in a further increase of illegal immigration just as the last one did. They are in the position of saying that increasing illegal immigration benefits national security. Not a very tenable position.

The WSJ and other multi national business and special interests groups due not have our countries best interests at heart. They are infected with the sickness of greed would destroy this country for their own self-interests.

16 posted on 12/24/2003 8:39:53 AM PST by usurper
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To: AbsoluteJustice
Remember a time way back when during the Great Depression in which AMERICANS were scraping for work? I am here to tell you now if I without work in my profession do not think for ONE minute second that I would not mow a lawn or hit the local fast food joint to take care of my family! You are putting an American OUT OF WORK by your logic and are the primary reason why myths and lies concerning immigration prevail. They DO NOT PAY TAXES (Fact). WE PAY their healthcare costs (Fact). Next time you complain that your healthcare costs are being driven and your taxes are rising lust look to your front yard and then you will discover why this is! Read my links you may find them interesting!

Allow me to shoot an arrow of logic in your doomsday scenario: The problems you are describing are not the fault of healthy adults who are willing to work (such as yourself -I commend you - I'd be right there beside you mowing that lawn). The problem you describe is a direct result of the welfare state that has been allowed to fester in this country. Long before the current immigration boom, there were plenty of able-bodied Americans who prefered to suck off the government tit rather than go out an earn for themselves. That, of course, is what spurred immigration in the first place.

17 posted on 12/24/2003 8:44:10 AM PST by presidio9 ("By extending the reach of trade, we foster prosperity and the habits of liberty." -Adam Smith)
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To: presidio9
I agree with your assessment. We under agrrement that immigration reform is needed both legal and illegal. Leave it to the politicos to start new Programmes.
18 posted on 12/24/2003 9:01:03 AM PST by AbsoluteJustice (By the time you read this 100 other Freepers will have posted what I have said here!)
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To: presidio9
"That, of course, is what spurred immigration in the first place."

Wrong. Greedy employers that bribed our politicians to allow massive, uncontrolled legal and illegal immigration, so that they might hire 2 immigrants in the place of one American worker with the U.S. Taxpayers picking up the tab for healthcare and benefits, are what led to our present crisis.

19 posted on 12/24/2003 9:18:31 AM PST by 4Freedom (America is no longer the 'Land of Opportunity', it's the 'Land of Illegal Alien Opportunists'!!!)
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To: presidio9
The main driving force behind protectionism is a socialist desire to artificially bolster the wages of the manufacturing class.

Artificial to you because you dont believe in the US Constitution or the rule of law. You are a loony anarchist wackjob. The disregard for the rights of american citizens is a socialist redistribution of wealth.

And just how damn stupid do you have to be to blantantly ignore the aid illegal immigration and our open borders has given to terrorists? Just how stupid do you have to be to ignore the rising levels of crime?

20 posted on 12/24/2003 9:19:02 AM PST by PuNcH
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Comment #21 Removed by Moderator

To: 4Freedom
Wrong. Greedy employers that bribed our politicians to allow massive, uncontrolled legal and illegal immigration, so that they might hire 2 immigrants in the place of one American worker with the U.S. Taxpayers picking up the tab for healthcare and benefits, are what led to our present crisis.

You guys are like a broken record. Get rid of the "healthcare and benefits." We as Americans are not "entitled" to them.

22 posted on 12/24/2003 9:26:24 AM PST by presidio9 ("By extending the reach of trade, we foster prosperity and the habits of liberty." -Adam Smith)
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To: PuNcH
Artificial to you because you dont believe in the US Constitution or the rule of law. You are a loony anarchist wackjob. The disregard for the rights of american citizens is a socialist redistribution of wealth.

I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to say here, but allow me to remind you that it is the "Anit-Globalization" crowd who are the anarchists, the constitution does not deal with Immigration, and capitalist free trade is about as far from socialism as a philosophical concept can get. In short, if I understood you correctly, everything you said in the first paragraph was incorrect.

And just how damn stupid do you have to be to blantantly ignore the aid illegal immigration and our open borders has given to terrorists? Just how stupid do you have to be to ignore the rising levels of crime?

As I pointed out earlier, the immigration we are talking about here has nothing to do with national security. Terrorists fly into this country. Cleaning ladies come on rafts.

23 posted on 12/24/2003 9:33:29 AM PST by presidio9 ("By extending the reach of trade, we foster prosperity and the habits of liberty." -Adam Smith)
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To: webwizard
The AFLCIO crowd will be here any moment...

Oh, they're out in force, believe me!

24 posted on 12/24/2003 9:34:19 AM PST by presidio9 ("By extending the reach of trade, we foster prosperity and the habits of liberty." -Adam Smith)
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To: presidio9
"You guys are like a broken record. Get rid of the "healthcare and benefits." We as Americans are not "entitled" to them."

Noone said we are entitled to then BUT the primary reason MY healthcare costs are so expensive here in Arizona is because this State MUST take ANY Illegal immigrant off the streets for care. Guess who pays for this? You guessed it me Mr. John Doe taxpayer. This stuff doesn't come for free!

Here is my idea. ALL Hospitals keep a running tab of those illegals that seak helthcare in America's emergency rooms then take away those monies we send in aid to those nation's of said illegals. I bet these countries quickly take care of their issues at home that foster natives leaving. SEND THEM THE DAMN BILL NOT ON MY DIME!! Ever been to an emergency room in Arizona? It took my wife and I behind god knows how many illegals 4 hours to be seen you figure this one out!


25 posted on 12/24/2003 9:36:06 AM PST by AbsoluteJustice (By the time you read this 100 other Freepers will have posted what I have said here!)
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To: presidio9; hchutch
You guys are like a broken record. Get rid of the "healthcare and benefits." We as Americans are not "entitled" to them.

Funny that they complain not about the societal largesse, but merely gripe about some of the recipients.

26 posted on 12/24/2003 9:36:33 AM PST by Poohbah ("Beware the fury of a patient man" -- John Dryden)
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To: Poohbah
Read my posts I believe I have just about covered your point.
27 posted on 12/24/2003 9:38:21 AM PST by AbsoluteJustice (By the time you read this 100 other Freepers will have posted what I have said here!)
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To: Poohbah
Funny that they complain not about the societal largesse, but merely gripe about some of the recipients.

That's what socialists and their lackeys do:

They treat the symptoms rather than the disease.

28 posted on 12/24/2003 9:38:57 AM PST by presidio9 (Protectionists Treat The Symptoms And Ignore The Disease)
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To: AbsoluteJustice
I lived in Tucson for two years. I am aware of the problem. Short of putting armed forces on the border, as long as we have handouts we will have immigration. The solution: Stop the handouts.
29 posted on 12/24/2003 9:40:25 AM PST by presidio9 (Protectionists Treat The Symptoms And Ignore The Disease)
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To: presidio9
The AFLCIO crowd will be here any moment...

Oh, they're out in force, believe me!

That's funny, I seen the head of the AFL-CIO, a Mr. Sweeney on Lou Dobbs last week and he's all for granting amnesty to illegals. I wonder why?

30 posted on 12/24/2003 9:47:06 AM PST by Missouri
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To: Missouri
That's funny, I seen the head of the AFL-CIO, a Mr. Sweeney on Lou Dobbs last week and he's all for granting amnesty to illegals. I wonder why?

Because he wants to add their votes to the welfare economy. I would abolish it.

31 posted on 12/24/2003 9:48:21 AM PST by presidio9 (Protectionists Treat The Symptoms And Ignore The Disease)
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To: presidio9
Terrorists fly into this country. >>>>>>>>


Gee, have you called Ridge with *this* info.

'Cause he's wasting lots of tax-dollars securing, borders, ports, bridges, etc. etc.

Good thing they stopped the 'millennium' bomber at the ROAD-BLOCK as he was *flying* into the USA.
32 posted on 12/24/2003 9:50:20 AM PST by txdoda ("Navy-brat")
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To: txdoda
Since you do not understand generaliztions, let me be a little more basic: The closed border policy has nothing to do with national security. It is directed at Mexico, not Canada, and its main targets are hispanic, not arabic.
33 posted on 12/24/2003 9:52:54 AM PST by presidio9 (Protectionists Treat The Symptoms And Ignore The Disease)
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To: presidio9
On that comment I agree with you 110%
34 posted on 12/24/2003 9:56:30 AM PST by AbsoluteJustice (By the time you read this 100 other Freepers will have posted what I have said here!)
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To: presidio9
"The closed border policy has nothing to do with national security. It is directed at Mexico, not Canada, and its main targets are hispanic, not arabic"

GOOD and I hope this eventually works because whatever the maske dintentions are I am tired of my tax dollars going to handouts. GRRRRRRR this topic makes me quite angry.
35 posted on 12/24/2003 9:58:57 AM PST by AbsoluteJustice (By the time you read this 100 other Freepers will have posted what I have said here!)
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To: presidio9
...they violated the law to get here," said Mr. Ridge. "You don't reward that type of conduct by turning over a citizen certificate. You determine how you can legalize their presence."

Hey, Mr. Ridge, you don't reward that type of conduct, period!!! Not with citizenship, nor a library card, nor a drivers license.

What Ridge is doing is setting the stage to carry out amnesty by phases. First, the illegals will get their work permits. Once that has become palatable to us, once we have become de-sensitized, then they will grant full citizenship and voting rights. I, for one, am never going to be on board for creeping or outright amnesty, so these idiots can stop floating their test balloons and trying to convince me. The answer is NO, and the answer will always be NO.

36 posted on 12/24/2003 10:00:40 AM PST by Pa' fuera
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To: AbsoluteJustice
Military force costs money. Effectively sealing off the border with Mexico would also be a huge drain on our economy. And for what purpose? Do they threaten us militarily?
37 posted on 12/24/2003 10:00:58 AM PST by presidio9 (Protectionists Treat The Symptoms And Ignore The Disease)
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To: presidio9
I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to say here,the constitution does not deal with Immigration,

So you are actually arguing that a disregard for the law by our govt has no effect on the constitutional rights of the citizens? Where does the constitution deal with murder? If the govt stopped enforcing laws on murder how would our society look then? Do you think your freedoms might get infringed upon a little?

You are in fact an anarchist wackjob.

As I pointed out earlier, the immigration we are talking about here has nothing to do with national security. Terrorists fly into this country. Cleaning ladies come on rafts.

And once again you ignore the crimes that are being committed by those crossing the borders. You clearly cannot deal with reality.

38 posted on 12/24/2003 10:02:49 AM PST by PuNcH
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To: judicial meanz
Meanwhile, the U.S. demand for low-skilled workers continues apace as Americans are unwilling to fill certain jobs in manufacturing, hotels, health care, restaurants, construction and other key economic sectors that would screech to a halt if illegal aliens were suddenly to disappear.

Tell that to a young carpenter-cabinet maker I know who has to spend three-fifths of his time hustling work from individual homeowners because the construction companies who do the cookie-cutter jobs would rather pay some illegal less under the table.

39 posted on 12/24/2003 10:05:04 AM PST by Vigilanteman
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To: PuNcH
So you are actually arguing that a disregard for the law by our govt has no effect on the constitutional rights of the citizens? Where does the constitution deal with murder? If the govt stopped enforcing laws on murder how would our society look then? Do you think your freedoms might get infringed upon a little?

You are in fact an anarchist wackjob.

Oh, I get it. In your world, illegal employment is the same as murder, hence people who do not fear immigration are anarchists.

Let me ask you a question: Have you ever driven a car in excess of the speed limit? If so, did you report yourself to the police?

You clearly cannot deal with reality.

Your version of reality? Surely not. Maybe if you give me some of those meds you've been taking.

40 posted on 12/24/2003 10:06:59 AM PST by presidio9 (Protectionists Treat The Symptoms And Ignore The Disease)
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To: Poohbah
Funny that they complain not about the societal largesse, but merely gripe about some of the recipients.

Do you know what the word you used, "societal" actually means? Do you understand what an illegal alien is? Do you understand that largesse taxes those in the "society" and not those from outside? Do you understand that we are getting overwhelmed with burdens that are not our country's or it's citizens problem?

Funny isnt it.

41 posted on 12/24/2003 10:08:01 AM PST by PuNcH
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To: PuNcH
Go back and read FR's mission statement.
42 posted on 12/24/2003 10:10:01 AM PST by Poohbah ("Beware the fury of a patient man" -- John Dryden)
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To: presidio9
Since you do not understand generaliztions, let me be a little more basic: The closed border policy has nothing to do with national security.

Once again dealing with drug smugglers and people smugglers and the rising crime rates and the terrorists that can come across the border is national security.

And yes in fact more than mexicans come across that border.

43 posted on 12/24/2003 10:12:01 AM PST by PuNcH
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To: presidio9
It is directed at Mexico, not Canada, and its main targets are hispanic, not arabic.>>>>>>

Really, most who I talk to, want ALL borders closed until our gov't can CONTROL all US immigration.

Most want our gov't to enforce ALL US laws, not just 'pick & choose' the laws they want to enforce.

Is it America's fault that *most* of our illegals come from mexico ??? Is it our fault they refuse to learn English ???

How 'bout a little *blame* on the "arrogant Vincente" ??? A BILLION a month to mexico, plus what "his mexicans" cost us in the USA, yet he continues to 'fight for the whole enchilada'.
44 posted on 12/24/2003 10:13:08 AM PST by txdoda ("Navy-brat")
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To: presidio9
Oh, I get it. In your world, illegal employment is the same as murder, hence people who do not fear immigration are anarchists.

No, of course you still dont get it. This is where you need to understand what the rule of law is and what damage has been done because of the disregard for it. MURDER for one.

45 posted on 12/24/2003 10:15:51 AM PST by PuNcH
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To: PuNcH
Once again dealing with drug smugglers and people smugglers and the rising crime rates and the terrorists that can come across the border is national security.

Here we go again with the specious metaphors. What is your opinion on the Federal War on Drugs? Do you support it? If not, you have no business bringing drugs into this conversation.

46 posted on 12/24/2003 10:18:04 AM PST by presidio9 (Protectionists Treat The Symptoms And Ignore The Disease)
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To: presidio9
The socialist agenda you seem to be missing is - increasing the underclass artifically by means of illegal immigration so there will be more poor and minority status folks for the democrats to try to buy votes from. Unfortunately there are republican liberals that want the same thing: to increase their voting base by buying the votes of "poor underpriviliged" aliens and other minoritiy groups. The last paragraph of the article mentions a hope that a loud MINORITY of dissenters will not influence Bush. Almost all polls show that about 77% of Americans want better immigration enforcement and fewer immigrants. Bottom line is: pandering to immigrants( legal and illegal) is a tool of the socialists. Wanting to slow immigration and stop ILLEGAL immigration is not socialistic, just common sense.
47 posted on 12/24/2003 10:18:27 AM PST by antisocial (Texas SCV)
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To: presidio9
That's what socialists and their lackeys do:

They treat the symptoms rather than the disease.

You can list the disease as a flood of people from a culture with a low regard for education. Most of our illegal immigrants have minimal education, and their children also do poorly in US schools.

These folks will be dependent on US welfare roles for some time because they do not possess the skills required for a modern economy.

48 posted on 12/24/2003 10:18:54 AM PST by caltaxed
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To: PuNcH
No, of course you still dont get it. This is where you need to understand what the rule of law is and what damage has been done because of the disregard for it. MURDER for one.

I know a Guy with a birthday tomorrow who would tell you that unless you yourself have never broken the law you have no buisness trying to incorporate this observation into your philosophy. Illegal employment is in no way comparable to murder.

49 posted on 12/24/2003 10:21:11 AM PST by presidio9 (Protectionists Treat The Symptoms And Ignore The Disease)
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To: presidio9
Because he wants to add their votes to the welfare economy.

Yes, but there is more. The Left (which includes Sweeeney) knows that immigrants of today vote over-whelmingly Democratic. Making illegals aliens, legal immigrants/citizens, adds alot of votes to their side which dilutes the conservative vote.

Check this link out. Link to F.A.I.R. article

I would abolish it.

I'm sure you would. I'm on your side on this. Any suggestions?

50 posted on 12/24/2003 10:24:29 AM PST by Missouri
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