The Myth of Mecca (oldie but goodie)

pol usa ^ | 9/27/2001 | By Jack Wheeler

[wasp69]

They are doomed, but it might not seem that way with just a cursory glance.

What do you mean? Are you referring to the fact that the "rock" itself is the site of a pagan Roman alter that was built on the site of Solomon's Temple when Rome destroyed it?

[cincysux]

I like how Wheeler thinks, I read an article he wrote shortly after 9-11 about nuking mecca that made a lot of sense. I thought I saved it on my computer, but can't find it. I searched newsmax archives and couldn't find it there either, do you have a link to it possibly ? I see your posts on LGF all the time, I like how you think too.

[lainde]

bttt

[SF South Park Republican]

Great post. I have been reading Ibn Rawandi and the other revisionists, and find it all fascinating. Apparently a major work is Patricia Crone and Michael Cook's Hagarism which proposes the theory that Islam arose initially as a Jewish messianic movement consisting of both Jews and Arabs aimed at reclaiming Jerusalem with the caliph Umar as the Messiah. The book is out of print, but I am trying to track it down through public libraries.

As long as we are on the subject of far-out theories on the origins of the monothestic religions, here's another one -

The Lebanese Christian scholar Kamal Salibi has proposed that early Israelite history took place not in Palestine but in the mountains of southwestern Saudi Arabia. His major piece of evidence is that place names in Saudi Arabia preserve the names hundreds of locations from the Hebrew scriptures, and when you map out geographical directions in the Bible from one place to another they fit perfectly with these Saudi places. If you map these same directions out on the map of present day Israel and Palestine, they don't fit at all.

Salibi contends that the exile was of the Israelite elite from southwestern Saudi Arabia to Babylon. Later these exiled Jews were allowed to resettle in Palestine where they imposed place names from their ancient Arabian history upon places in Palestine. Thus we get things in the post-exile literature like, "Rejoice, new Jerusalem", the new Jerusalem being the one established in Palestine.
Salibi's main work is "The Bible Came From Arabia". Unfortunately, it is out of print. Rumor has it that the Saudis and Israelis bought up all available copies. Obviously, it is not in the interest of either of them that the Jewish homeland be located in Saudi Arabia. Amazon has two used copies available at $100, and maybe you can find it in libraries.

[Mortimer Snavely]

'As Al-Rawandi puts it:

"The claims of Islam do not depend on historical origins, but on an inner knowledge of God, the accompaniment and reward of piety. What makes Islam true is the spiritual life of Moslems, not religious history but religious experience."'

This sounds like something some of the mental patients I work with would say.

[dennisw]

Thanks. I will try to find it. He has some other good ones about Islam. Use google and keywords --- jack nuclear mecca

[dennisw]

I guess I'm missing the point of this. Are you implying that Islam is not a valid religion because some of its traditions (allegedly) aren't historically accurate?
Christ wasn't born on Christmas Day either, and many of the principles of Christianity weren't codified until several hundred years after his death. Does this invalidate Christianity? 

The Koran is very chaotic, inconsistent and contradictory compared to the Bible. It was slap dash thrown together. It is written in "religious Arabic" thus open to even more interpretation.

The Muddled Message of the Koran

http://www.prophetofdoom.net/quotes.html

 

 

[quadrant]

The fruits of Mohammed were bloodshed and the religious deception of millions of people.

However, the man - as far as can be known - is a historical figure, and its time for research into his life by men and women who are not Muslims and have no interest in the spread of Islam.

The fruits of Hitler and Stalin were bloodshed and deception, yet books are written about their lives.

[quadrant]

As a Bible believing Christian and an amateur student of the end times, I consider the Mosque of Omar an abomination that should be torn down. And I believe that one day, the structure will come down, whether at the end times or not.

However, I prefer to leave the end times to God's providence, as do I leave to His judgment and mercy the fate of those who profess a belief in Islam.

[RonWebb]

"The Koran is very chaotic, inconsistent and contradictory compared to the Bible. It was slap dash thrown together. It is written in 'religious Arabic' thus open to even more interpretation."

The Bible has plenty of chaos and contradiction too, depending on how you look at it -- and who does the looking. (See The Dark Bible, for instance.) And even leaving aside such obviously prejudiced and hostile commentators, all religions have various sects with often contradictory interpretations. There are probably more variations within Christianity than within Islam.

But that isn't really the question, is it? The article doesn't discuss internal contradictions within Islam or within the Koran -- it talks about how contemporary Islam differs from the historical record. My point is that Christianity has evolved just as Islam has, and perhaps more so. I just don't see why that matters to anyone other than "true believers".

[RonWebb]

"This sounds like something some of the mental patients I work with would say."

Oh really? But if someone had said this:

"The claims of Christianity do not depend on historical origins, but on an inner knowledge of God, the accompaniment and reward of piety. What makes Christianity true is the spiritual life of Christians, not religious history but religious experience."

... would you find it just as crazy?

[Mortimer Snavely]

"... would you find it just as crazy?"

Absolutely. Once you divorce the Bible from history, you delegate Christianity to mythology, and Christ becomes yet another mystical member of the peace pantheon of Wise Agéd Ones.

Yes, I believe that the Bible is True Truth. It all really happened, in other words. Knowledge of Truth is an intellectual process, and sponaeous reactions to momentary moods and impulses do not qualify. Faith today means belief in the absence of sufficient evidence. Nobody needed any faith to believe that Christ rose from the dead. They had the evidence of their senses. No "faith," as the word is understood today, was required.

I can't understand why Christians find this so troublesome to understand. After all, the word logos is the root of the word "logic" and all the -ologies.

[southland]

ping

[southland]

ping

[dennisw]

Mecca/Medina is where it all began and Mecca/Medina is where it all will end. Mecca/Medina is the Alpha/Omega of Islam. Will be where Muhammad's blood cult is lain to rest.

[doctorhugo]

Hey...The Man! You've got to be kidding with this
"This sounds like historical revisionism to me."
remark!!??

Go research the sources. I'm currently engaged in an email debate/exchange with someone from an Islamic website and I can guarantee the souces noted in this original thread to be ACCURATE.

You wouldn't know "historical revisionism" if it jumped up and bit you.

This is NOT politics here being discussed, it's religion. As in ALL religions, there comes a point where what is espoused as a reality or truth cannot be verified accurately and/or definitively. The debate known as the Myth of Mecca which goes to the root of the origins of modern Islam and is just such an issue. There is the allegation that Mohammed was NOT the last great prophet of God. It is taken as an article of Faith by the believer and is a point of ongoing debate and contention by the non-believer. And so it is here.

To be so outrightly dismissive of an excellent post and verifiable sources does nothing for your intellectual veracity.

[doctorhugo]

Mort! I'm a traditionalist and oft times self-described pragmatic realist. I'm a product of a mixed religious background and married to one of yet a third religious persuasion. I only mention this so you may appreciate the breadth of very real exposure to the major world faiths I have. Just for additional background I'll state that long ago I knew that I was, in practicing reality, a Golden Ruler. Needless to say, that is a philosophical persuasion of life and NOT a religion. I have great tolerance and respect for sincere religious belief, but feel that for me a sense of inherent decency and morality in all things works for me. I appreciate your comments, but have ONE bone of contention with part of it. You noted..."They had the evidence of their senses".

This is quite interesting AS it's a matter of interpretation of the event as described in the Bible.
It is NOT a statement of fact, but rather an article of FAITH to be taken as the TRUTH, by true believers, and is CRUCIAL to the roots of Christianity. Would you not agree.

Also, I'd venture this comment on your statement..."Once you divorce the Bible from history, you delegate Christianity to mythology, and Christ becomes yet another mystical member of the peace pantheon of Wise Agéd Ones."
It must also be acknowledged that there is 'world' history and there is 'religious' history and,...though intertwined through the genrations, they are separate and distinct and should NOT be blurred. For what you have stated is PRECISELY what a tolerant non-believer thinks and there is NOTHING wrong with that. The outward civility of one religion's believers towards another's religious belief is NOT an acceptance of that belief but merely a manifestation of tolerance of same. If one TRULY BELIVES in his/her personal religion then as surey as night follows day, they must believe that THEIR'S is the only true way. In other words, when pushed to the wall they DO NOT belief that All Roads Lead To Rome!

[jmq]

MECCA------Ground Zero

[dennisw]

Let's just hope we have nuclear tipped with missiles ready to launch to Mecca-Medina if the Muhammadan terrorists decide to use WMD on us. I want those missiles with Mecca-Medina coordiantes programmed into them now. Qom in Iran is the Shiite holy city and should be on the same short list.

[doctorhugo]

Have you taken notice of all the statements and fatwahs being issued by American based Muslim groups, many days late and way short of adequate. It's only a response to the building prejudice against them in this country and the ongoing profiling they are being subjected to. Of course, all the lefties are whining as per normal about their (Muslims) rights. In times of war personal individual rights must ALWAYS yield to the rights of the citizenry as a whole, which is something they'll never get.
I'm not so sure that even if a terrorist has blown himself up on the floor of the DNC, that they (the demonRATS) would have stopped their politically correct whining.

How about we launch a new drive in support of Islam.

It could be called just MOM!

For Mushrooms* Over Mecca.
(*as in clouds)

And we could just...Win One for Mom. It's got great PR possibiities. To paraphrase an old PR term,
'Let's run it into the silo and see if it launches!'