On campus, grim statistics for African-American men

St. Petersburg Times ^ | January 5, 2004 | Bill Maxwell

[Cincinatus' Wife]

All you describe can be associated with all races. The idea that BIG government can assist anyone is bogus. BIG government wants to redistribute wealth to garner votes and power. BIG government cares little about the consequences of living on the dole. It is unfortunate that more and more Americans are putting their hand out believing they are getting something for nothing. They are selling themselves down the river. My remarks about the breakup of the family was meant to describe the devistating effects of the disease called welfare.

[Cincinatus' Wife]

Time to keep more whites out of college. Must be **fair**.

The sooner one learns that life isn't fair, the sooner they'll stop whining and get on with life.

[Dianna]

Even among the "privileged" there is a 41% failure rate.

Well, that may not be EXACTLY accurate. The statistic seems to be 41% are not graduating after 6 years. That may very well mean that most in this group are not graduating at all. However, as far back the early 90's, it was difficult to graduate from a Cal State University in 4 years going full time. Many people I know spent at least 5 years because campus was overcrowded and classes difficult to get.

So if we're talking about people who have changed majors partway through, or going part time, this stat may make things look worse than they are.

[Hollywoodghost]

I saw a black author on Hannity & Cooms say that things were better off for blacks BEFORE the Civil Rights act of 1963. At least more Black males were at home and more children were born to married families. Yes, they can vote now and have better chances at life--but the black community had to pay a price.

[cyborg]

The price was having snotty white liberals tell them that they need their help now and forever. If liberals had butt out after the civil rights movement then things would have been FINE.

[cyborg]

Don't you know it's more convenient to talk about black people? :-(

[dwd1]

Doing right by one's family is not necessarily an easy choice but it is the right one. I don't know where you got the 1000 to 1 ratio of good to bad fathers but you know what Mark Twain said about "lies, damned lies, and statistics" I would suggest that you go to LaDera Heights in Los Angeles... You may find that the numbers you are basing your opinion on may not reflect what is going on...

If you are asking what makes someone walk away from their family and not support them, I can only say from personal experience that it is a combination of selfishness, shame, and a lack of resources to support a new family and one from the previous marriage or relationship...

The funny thing about your position that government steps in and takes over is nothing I have ever seen. If a woman has to go to the government for assistance, there are laws that require attachment of wages, collection of funds from tax refunds, and I understand incarceration is also a possiblity.... I am proud to say I have never needed the government or anyone else to tell me to take care of my kids...

By the way... When you say "both communities".... I have heard there are more than two... Please let me know which two you are referring to...

I feel obliged to inquire if you have any personal experience with black communities or is your opinion based on anectdotal evidence primarily...

I guess I see the good and the bad in all situations...

And I can tell you one thing for sure... The social service system is not set up to encourage participation... I have been told that the level of humiliation when receiving public assistance is very high...

Now to the original subject of the education system, you might also want to look at the problem that many young men from different racial groups feel that the only way to go to college is through athletics and that studying is for nerds and geeks and those who are not cool... I can tell you that going to school under the circumstances I did was difficult when I see athletes (not all, just enough to notice) living better and not having to work as hard as I did to stay in school. In the end, however, I realized that education is the great equalizer and I was not going to give up...

However, as I said before, I have eyes and I know that I will never make the money Michael Jordan or anyone with those skills makes.... Part of the deal...


Black communities are still filled with proud people that do honest work ... We also have people who embarrass the hell out of the rest of us... I think you may find this occurs on all sides of the track... They have homeless in Tokyo, too...

And from what I have seen of the inner city in my twelve years in LA... People want better things... Getting out, going to school, marrying a nice girl with nice hips, getting a decent job with benefits, raising some decent kids... That is still the dream...

I have to disagree with you about the inner city... If everyone was living off welfare, there would be a lot more homeless because I understand that public assistance is not enough to keep a person housed...

When you talk of old times, the only thing I have heard too many times is that times were hard and there were few opportunities...




I see every type in the city...

What inner city have you had the most experience with?

[cyborg]

excellent post

[madprof98]

Just curious.... What year did this collapse of black families occur?...

It's well documented. Moynihan issued his prophetic report on the collapse of the black family in 1965. At that time, the illegitimacy rate in the African-American community was 25%. It has since risen to about 70%.

I personally don't see it as a consequence of government policies alone. Myron Magnet's great book, The Dream and the Nightmare, places the blame on cultural changes that came with the '60s, particularly the Sexual Revolution.

[dwd1]

I think Reagan had it right when he said that a government that can give you everything you need can take everything you have....

I see welfare as a problem too and as someone who has spent time in a classroom learning as well as teaching, I think it is the silver bullet to most problems... I think welfare is something that should be the last instead of the first resort but I know that many would rather work any job rather than go on welfare and if there are no jobs, they would rather resort to crime rather than go on welfare...

This leads to a lot of bad choices.... There are people in this country that feel that they are faced with bad choices and worse choices... Kind of like "Do I pay for insurance or do I pay the rent?"


Back to welfare, I would not wish public assistance on anyone, and I guess I feel like I can compare welfare to the flu shots I had to take when I was in the military... I felt like the treatment or solution for the illness was worse than the actual illness...

Bad choice vs. worse choice...

Education... The answer... Opportunity... The answer.... Moral and fiscal responsibility... The answer....

And many will say.."Easier said than done!" That is what people who want things to be different can not easily overcome when confronting someone who is stuck in a rut or a cycle of poverty....IMHO

[dwd1]

Now, that sounds more reasonable... Lack of access to healthcare, information about controlling pregnancy, and less than well thought out moral decisions about sex and marriage... The birth control pill... The rebelling against authority figures... That seems to say that it is not just one thing... I don't think big government is responsible for the sexual revolution.... :-)

I will look up more info on the book you mentioned... Thank you...

[John O]

I don't know where you got the 1000 to 1 ratio of good to bad fathers

I was actually referring to bad stories vs good but lets make it more specific and stay with fathers. The number should be 80 to 20. (see post 19)

If you are asking what makes someone walk away from their family

I contend not that they walk away but that they aren't there at all from the start. The young male gets a girl knocked up and never claims responsibility for the child. He is no more than a sperm donor.

The funny thing about your position that government steps in and takes over is nothing I have ever seen. If a woman has to go to the government for assistance, there are laws that require attachment of wages, collection of funds from tax refunds, and I understand incarceration is also a possiblity....

Assuming she knows where the father is or even who he is. Loose morals and no marriages have destroyed traceability in many cases

By the way... When you say "both communities".... I have heard there are more than two... Please let me know which two you are referring to...

Inner city (real black culture) or suburbia ('white' black culture)

personal experience or anectdotal evidence

Anectdotal and published studies

Now to the original subject of the education system, you might also want to look at the problem that many young men from different racial groups feel that the only way to go to college is through athletics and that studying is for nerds and geeks and those who are not cool...

A true core issue. Studying and succeeding is too "white" and is looked down on in the black community. (posted and discussed here on FR many times)

I can tell you that going to school under the circumstances I did ... I was not going to give up...

Good for you! Another good story that was never told. Did you grow up in the inner city? Is your father married to your mother?

I understand that public assistance is not enough to keep a person housed...

Depends on the state. Of course with welfare reforem it may have changed but the "welfare queen" label didn't come about due to starving people.

What inner city have you had the most experience with?

Milwaukee with a lessor exposure to Chicago and Washington DC.

[Cincinatus' Wife]

Education... The answer... Opportunity... The answer.... Moral and fiscal responsibility... The answer.... And many will say.."Easier said than done!" That is what people who want things to be different can not easily overcome when confronting someone who is stuck in a rut or a cycle of poverty....IMHO

Every things easier said but done but it can be done! That's the key. Tell the youth of America they can improve their futures instead of teaching them to give up in dispair or to fall back on hate and self-pity.

[Cincinatus' Wife]

Every things = Everything's

[dwd1]

I am from Muleshoe, TX (pop est. 4524)... Parents divorced... I have worked since I was 7 with the family... Worked since I was 9 for others...

No argument on the moral choices issue but I think you will find that happens on Beverly as well as Crenshaw...

Not sure when all black people got defined by what happens in the big city... Of course, one could argue that Harlem used to be a nice place... East St. Louis could use some work... Most the people I grew up with in Muleshoe have left....

With paternity tests and a general intolerance for deadbeat dads, unless a young lady is having unprotected sex while blindfolded, I think this situation should not be occuring... I should ask my friend in the hall of records how many births were recorded with "Father Unknown" or "Immaculate Conception"...

Only been to DC once.... Chicago (from what I have heard) is a place where too many people get left behind because of technology and modernization... Biggest mistake anyone can make in any place is to stop learning....

Yes, I have had that "You act white!" argument many times...


Funny thing about poor people... They define themselves more on their condition than the color of their skin... In the farm community, there were people with choices, people without hope, people hungry for a change, people that understood the big picture and knew where they stood, and those blinded by the light buzzing around trying to keep warm...

[dwd1]

I say it and try to sell it every day...

Me, I like a challenge...

[dwd1]

Everything is everything... You been hangin out with the brothas? :-)

[cyborg]

LOL now I have that Lauryn Hill song

[dwd1]

I guess this is the mood I am in after watching "Patch of Blue" with Elizabeth Hartman and Sidney Portier... I am raring to take on someone spewing divisive nonsense...

I did not know that you like Country Music... Then again, I speak German so I guess neither of us fit into a stereotype... :-)

[Doc Savage]

Today I filed suit against the National Football League and the National Basketball Association claiming that I have been discriminated against based on my race and age.

Since the percentage of black NFL players per team has now reached 98% (there are a few QB's and Euro kickers left on each team - referred to as token whites) I cannot get a job in my chosen profession.

That's right. I am a 58 year old white, anglo-saxon Protestant who would like to play wide receiver for an NFL team.

I believe punitive damages in this case should be commensurate with my ability or roughly worth say $200 million dollars. With a similar lawsuit against the NBA I should be able to retire nicely and afford my own domed stadium.