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More EU countries "voice concern" re: (a.k.a. refuse) armed guards on US-bound flights
BBC On-Line ^ | Tuesday, 6 January, 2004

Posted on 01/06/2004 9:22:49 AM PST by yankeedame

Last Updated: Tuesday, 6 January, 2004, 11:35 GMT

Protests widen over sky marshals

More countries have joined the protests against American proposals to place armed guards on US-bound flights.

Portugal is the latest nation to voice concern, as its civil aviation authority said that putting loaded guns aboard an aircraft could endanger it.

In Britain, the pilots' union said that if the security risk to a flight is great enough to warrant an armed guard, the plane should not fly at all.

Denmark and Sweden have also rejected demands for armed guards on aircraft.

While the US has introduced new checks at home, its efforts to tighten security on incoming flights have met with strong opposition.

The director of Portugal's National Civil Aviation Institute, Joaquim Carvalho, told the AFP news agency: "We will not authorise loaded guns on Portuguese planes, therefore we will not allow armed guards."

He added: "If there is specific information about a particular flight which justifies having armed guards on board, what we would consider is cancelling the flight."

Pilots hostile

Elsewhere, the UK Government's announcement that it would put armed marshals on some flights "where appropriate" has drawn a hostile response from airlines and pilots.

British Airways has expressed concerns about having armed guards on board aircraft, while the holiday airline Thomas Cook has said it will ground any flights on which armed guards, known as sky marshals, are placed.

The British pilots' union, Balpa, said it disapproved of armed guards on flights and called for an emergency world summit of airline pilots to consider the demand for sky marshals.

In the meantime, the union is to have talks with the UK Government on Tuesday to discuss the issue.

Brazil has begun fingerprinting and photographing US citizens flying into its airports, apparently in retaliation for new security measures at US airports.

The Brazilian move came as the stringent new US regulations, affecting most tourists, were introduced.

Everyone entering the United States with a visa will now have fingerprints and photographs taken and scrutinised.

People on the visa waiver scheme - such as tourists from much of Europe, Japan and Australia - are not yet affected, but those on work visas are.

TOPICS: Front Page News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: airlinesecurity; armedmarshals; bang; orangealert4
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To: BlessedBeGod
These pilots need to stop whining and grow up. Probably the only thing that would change their minds is for one of their aircraft to be taken down by terrorists. Then we'll see what they think about it.

IMHO, they would move heaven and earth twisting the story every which way but lose to find a way to say, "So you see, an armed guard wouldn't have helped anyway."

21 posted on 01/06/2004 10:43:38 AM PST by yankeedame ("Oh, I can take it but I'd much rather dish it out.")
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To: Professional Engineer
A large ring of keys on the end of a leather belt will make a nifty flail.

I've also heard that you get a #1 (or is it #3? Help me out here, someone) lead pencil. It's the one w/ the very hard lead. You sharpening them to a needle point and then tuck them away in your shirt pocket. No one is going to question/ban some guy carrying pencils in his pocket (protecter).

Then, if threatened you taken one of the pencils and rake the guy's forhead, which will bleed like Niagra Falls. This give you time to make an escape, or make you next move.

22 posted on 01/06/2004 10:52:18 AM PST by yankeedame ("Oh, I can take it but I'd much rather dish it out.")
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To: yankeedame
#3 would be harder.

Pencils, pens, keys. heh heh

nail clippers aren't nearly as useful. LOL
23 posted on 01/06/2004 10:57:34 AM PST by Professional Engineer (Be American, Buy American)
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To: Professional Engineer
If you get one of those nice little rucksacks as a carry-on, one with a grab handle on the top, a nice hardback book inside also makes a half way decent mace. Swing it by the handle.
24 posted on 01/06/2004 11:04:00 AM PST by Prodigal Son
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To: Lazarus Starr; dead; Dog; yankeedame; Skywarner; ohioman; claudwitz; Redbob; Ciexyz
Can't say I'd be sad if Euros stayed home.

Just damned. I have already booked my flights. Shall I cancel them?

Note to all others: surprisingly, France, Germany and Canada have announced that these countries have no problems by having sky marshals on board of their planes. The German government already sends sky marshals on flights at risk since winter 2001, and Lufthansa has confirmed that many of their transatlantic flights are escorted by these armed security specialists.

I have no problems with sky marshals, as long they´re not required for every flight (that would be a waste of money and time of our security personnel), but for special/riskful flights.

25 posted on 01/06/2004 1:15:21 PM PST by Michael81Dus
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To: Michael81Dus
Excellent. See? It isn't that hard.
26 posted on 01/06/2004 1:31:53 PM PST by Citizen of the Savage Nation
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To: Citizen of the Savage Nation
Excellent. See? It isn't that hard.

LOL. I often explained here that we stand on the right side in the war on terrorism, and that it was "just" the Iraq war my government (and people) couldn´t agree with.

Another question is the following: The US government requires all visa-waiver-program-states (such like Japan, all EU member states except Greece) to issue passports with biometric datas from Oct 26 2004 on.

BUT: there´s no agreement which datas and how these should be included in the passports. Old passports will be valid for access to the US until they expire, but the Washington threatens to exclude countries from the Visa-waiver-program if they don´t issue passports with biometric datas from that date on. How can countries do - the way it should be isn´t published nor negotiated with the visa-waiver-member-states yet!?

And I can´t imagine that the US government would want that US citizens needs visa for trips up to 90 days to the EU, Japan, etc... but that would be the result if the visa-waiver-program will be stopped.

There´s will to cooperate and to fulfill the US security demands, but nobody´s perfect. My prediction: it´s likely that the requirement for biometric datas in passports will be delayed.

27 posted on 01/06/2004 1:42:17 PM PST by Michael81Dus
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To: Michael81Dus
Auch in der EU sollen biometrische Verfahren gegen Terrorismus und Asylmissbrauch zum Einsatz kommen. So stellt die Bundesrepublik bereits seit diesem Jahr Visa mit Fotos aus und ist damit Vorreiter in der EU. In spätestens zwei Jahren sollen nach dem Willen des EU-Ministerrats europaweit biometrische Merkmale wie Fingerabdrücke, Gesichtsfeld-Erkennung oder Irisfotos auf einem angehängten Chip im Visum gespeichert werden. Später könnten auch Reisepässe von EU-Bürgern mit biometrischen Daten versehen werden; einen Zeitplan dafür gibt es aber noch nicht.

Schon jetzt werden in der deutschen Botschaft in Lagos in Nigeria den Visum-Antragstellern Fingerabdrücke abgenommen und mit dem deutschen Asyl- und Straftäterbestand abgeglichen. Das Innenministerium berichtete jüngst von einer "beachtlichen Trefferquote" und prüft derzeit, ob das Pilotprojekt ausgeweitet wird.

Zur Bekämpfung des Asylmissbrauchs ist zudem seit Januar 2003 auf EU-Ebene das Fingerabdruck-Identifizierungssystem Eurodac in Betrieb. Europaweit werden seither von allen vermutlich illegal aus sicheren Drittstaaten eingereisten Asylbewerbern und Ausländern die Fingerabdrücke abgenommen und an die Datenbank in Luxemburg übermittelt, wo sie gespeichert und verglichen werden. Angesichts der Terrorangriffe in den USA am 11. September 2001 ist die Sicherheitslage an Flughäfen besonders kritisch. Auch hier kommt neuerdings die Biometrie zum Einsatz: Vor wenigen Wochen hat der Bundesgrenzschutz am größten deutschen Airport in Frankfurt am Main einen Augenscanner in Probebetrieb genommen, der Merkmale der Augeniris erfasst und in einer lokalen Datenbank speichert. Teilnehmen können Freiwillige aus EU-Staaten, die zuvor grenzpolizeilich überprüft und als unbedenklich eingestuft wurden. Beim nächsten Grenzübertritt sollen die Teilnehmer dann anhand ihres Iris-Profils identifiziert werden.

We shouldn't overreact to something that has been commonplace for American citizens for years. Personally, I have my Fingerprints all over the place, I have no problems with that.
Insurance agents, the SEC has for years already implemented fingerprinting as part of their licensing procedures,Doctors, etc.,etc.,etc.
Now foreigners have to identify themselves, so what? Let's not make a mountain out of a molehill?

28 posted on 01/06/2004 3:13:59 PM PST by americanbychoice
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To: Skywarner; yankeedame; ohioman
"Our rules. Our airspace. Don't like it? Don't fly here."

For those who thought that my original comment above was FROM a whining European: it was not. It was from a firmly entrenched good 'ol American citizen who loves the US of A.

My comment was directed TO those whining Europeans who refuse to fly with an air marshall on board under any circumstance.

Sorry for any confusion. ;-)
29 posted on 01/06/2004 4:46:45 PM PST by Skywarner (Freedom isn't Free. Remember our WWII vets!)
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To: Michael81Dus
Sounds like the INS (or whatever they call themselves these days) has their fingerprints all over this hahahaah. In any case, If I have to get a visa to go to Europe, forget it I don't want to deal with those clowns in the visa offices again.
30 posted on 01/06/2004 5:44:22 PM PST by Citizen of the Savage Nation
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To: Citizen of the Savage Nation
That´s the way tourists here think too...
31 posted on 01/07/2004 2:42:22 AM PST by Michael81Dus
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To: americanbychoice
Huh? It´s not that I fear identification. It´s that I want an agreement between the EU and US how the passports should look like. We´re not opposed to solutions, we want them. It´s the US-authority which hasn´t expressed clearly how we can come to an agreement regarding biometric datas in passports.
32 posted on 01/07/2004 2:48:00 AM PST by Michael81Dus
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To: Michael81Dus
Of course, understandable. I wouldn't worry about the VWP, we need Europeans coming here and buying our stuff with their expensive Euros.

How are BWM and Daimler doing with the high Euro? I can't believe they're not losing alot of money on every car they sell over here since they haven't raised prices 50% to compensate for currency valuations.
33 posted on 01/07/2004 1:39:40 PM PST by Citizen of the Savage Nation
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To: Citizen of the Savage Nation
As far as I´ve heard, the business people are a bit concerned. The price of $ 1.25-1.30 for one Euro is considered to be critical, but still acceptable. But if this level will be kept for months, our exports will decrease. Analysts say that the Dollar could sink to 1.40 € within the next year. OTOH several other companies enjoy the high Euro price - they can get rid off much of their $-priced debts. Therefore: time will tell us.
34 posted on 01/07/2004 2:36:46 PM PST by Michael81Dus
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