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Bush Immigration Plan Borders on Treason
Chuck Baldwin Ministries ^ | 01-09-04 | Baldwin, Chuck

Posted on 01/08/2004 4:26:33 PM PST by Theodore R.

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1 posted on 01/08/2004 4:26:35 PM PST by Theodore R.
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To: Theodore R.
I heard Rep. Tom Tancredo on Dobb's state that Bush's plan is dangerous and I am in agreement. IF by treason the author means that Bush has the betrayed the trust of American who he in fact leads.. then the shoe fits.
2 posted on 01/08/2004 4:31:14 PM PST by Zipporah (Write inTancredo in 2004)
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To: Zipporah
What's this? Another conservative who dislikes government action angry that Bush didn't announce a greater magnitude of government enforcement action?
3 posted on 01/08/2004 4:32:56 PM PST by Owen
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To: All

Do these guys look happy
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4 posted on 01/08/2004 4:34:25 PM PST by Support Free Republic (Hi Mom! Hi Dad!)
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To: Support Free Republic
this is the most B.S. article i've ever read, and to say bush is bordering on treason is B.S.
5 posted on 01/08/2004 4:39:04 PM PST by Veritas01 (Veritas)
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To: Zipporah
Bump! I'm with you on that.

I have been a Bush supporter for the most part since his election, but this is the straw the broke the camels back.

With moves like this, he will end up like his dad...a one-termer
6 posted on 01/08/2004 4:39:17 PM PST by Dr. Marten ("My affections are first for my own country,and then, generally, for all mankind" ~Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Theodore R.
the plan should be regarded as bordering treason!

Treason??? Come on. I don't like this crazy plan either, but it does not border on treason. That's just plain nuts.

Bush to Americans: "Read my lips. No new illegals."

7 posted on 01/08/2004 4:40:02 PM PST by Visalia
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To: Veritas01
I have read so many people on these threads cry about how Bush has ignored the border problems with mexico and just as many scream about all the illegals in this country, but it seems nobody wants to stand up and criticize President Bush on this?

Oh gee, how quickly people fall into the flock...
8 posted on 01/08/2004 4:41:03 PM PST by Dr. Marten ("My affections are first for my own country,and then, generally, for all mankind" ~Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Dr. Marten
What have you liked that Bush has done? Not just the War on Terror.
9 posted on 01/08/2004 4:42:03 PM PST by Ann Archy
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To: Zipporah

10 posted on 01/08/2004 4:42:26 PM PST by putupon (Take off the rose colored glasses and Jorge still looks Pinko.)
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To: Visalia
"Treason??? Come on. I don't like this crazy plan either, but it does not border on treason. That's just plain nuts."

On one hand I can agree with you, but on the other...what do you call the act of sacrificing the best interest of America in order to gain the votes of a growing illegal population who has the best interests of their own country in mind?

I would throw it into the same Pot as Clintoon-China relations...
11 posted on 01/08/2004 4:47:00 PM PST by Dr. Marten ("My affections are first for my own country,and then, generally, for all mankind" ~Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Theodore R.
It's articles such as these -- all hyperventillation and hysterics -- that make me increasingly certain that, in the name of ideological "constancy" and "purity," the extremist fringe of our own party would actually prefer eight years of a Howard Dean presidency, over another four years of Bush. That way, they'd actually have something real to p!ss and moan about... which, in turn, would make them all the happier.

There was some goofy university-sponsored "study," a few months back, claiming that political conservatives were just naturally a little... slower than the rest of the population, overall.

Every time I see one of Chuck Baldwin's little heel-drumming tantrums posted on this site: I can't help but be reminded of that, for some reason.

12 posted on 01/08/2004 4:47:41 PM PST by KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle ("The Clintons have damaged our country. They have done it together, in unison." -- Peggy Noonan)
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To: Theodore R.
Why do you keep posting this Bald-twit crap?
13 posted on 01/08/2004 4:47:50 PM PST by Asclepius (karma vigilante)
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To: Theodore R.
Already, more than ten percent of Mexico's population is living illegally in the United States.

Damn, is this true?

14 posted on 01/08/2004 4:49:22 PM PST by breakem
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To: Theodore R.; Zipporah; sheltonmac; jgrubbs
Bush's amnesty plan is also a serious slap in the face to those would-be immigrants who are trying to migrate to America legally. There are thousands of decent, hard working people from around the world who are seeking entrance into the United States. Some of these are seeking political asylum. Some are fleeing persecution. Whatever their reasons, they are following the rules and obeying the laws. Now, they must wait and watch as President Bush pushes criminals to the front of the line.

Mr. Baldwin brings up another good point (of many). I didn't recall President Bush mentioning how this would affect others going through the process legally.

15 posted on 01/08/2004 4:49:26 PM PST by The_Eaglet (Peroutka for President)
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To: KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle; Theodore R.
Every time I see one of Chuck Baldwin's little heel-drumming tantrums posted on this site: I can't help but be reminded of that, for some reason.
I'll say.
16 posted on 01/08/2004 4:50:42 PM PST by Asclepius (karma vigilante)
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To: Theodore R.
Therefore, it should be obvious to all Americans that this president is willing and eager to put America's future largely in the hands of foreign criminals.

Keep your powder dry.

17 posted on 01/08/2004 4:51:50 PM PST by kimosabe31
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To: Dr. Marten
Hi, Doc! I just tend to see treason as being more of what we can expect from the Commiecrat Party.
18 posted on 01/08/2004 4:52:53 PM PST by Visalia
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To: Theodore R.
The agenda of the phonycons is now very clear: They will fight an endless debt financed war abroad, and appease the invaders at home.

19 posted on 01/08/2004 4:54:38 PM PST by JohnGalt (Neocons: Appeasers to the illegal alien invaders)
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To: Visalia
I agree with you, and I didnt expect it from Bush.
I guess thats why I feel so disappointed in him.
Disqusted is more like it I guess...
20 posted on 01/08/2004 4:59:00 PM PST by Dr. Marten ("My affections are first for my own country,and then, generally, for all mankind" ~Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Theodore R.
Chuck must be the "white sheep" of the Baldwin family:)

Ten percent of Mexico's population here, an least 3/4ths illegally. This is intolerable. We should at least get 10% of Pemex profits to defray their financial burden.

After thinking on this for several days I've decided to stand with those who will write in Tancredo. He really doesn't want the job, thus making him the best qualfied for it.
America is dying by increments with the One-World policies pushed since George the First. If our representatives would have represented us during those years we would all be enjoying a higher standard of living.
21 posted on 01/08/2004 5:02:37 PM PST by NewRomeTacitus (Has anyone gone out and come back as an alien yet? It's the new path to success.)
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To: Dr. Marten
Have you had a chance to read Rush's commentary on the subject? I would be interested in your reaction to his take on it.
22 posted on 01/08/2004 5:05:23 PM PST by hobson
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To: Theodore R.; Admin Moderator
Quoting from the article you posted: "Beyond that, the reason President Bush is attempting to legalize millions of illegal Mexicans seems nothing at all but an undisguised ploy to pick up votes for his reelection. Therefore, it should be obvious to all Americans that this president is willing and eager to put America's future largely in the hands of foreign criminals. Every American should give that thought serious deliberation!"

===

How any responsible conservative could make such accusation is beyond me. Which leads me to conclude that this was NOT written by a responsible conservative, but someone who is a useful idiots for the Democrats, using the immigration issue to try to turn conservatives against Bush, so Dean or some other Democrat -- who are REAL traitors to the US can be elected.

Disagreeing with Bush's actions is one thing.

But ascribing ulterior motives to Bush and claiming that his actions are treasonous is beyond the pale.

Maybe moveon.org will be happy to post this article on their website.
23 posted on 01/08/2004 5:07:29 PM PST by FairOpinion
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To: Dr. Marten
I have got to jump in here and make a couple of points that people intent on jumping off the cliff are forgetting.

1)It's a proposal. A starting point of the debate, which we desperately need to have.

2)This proposal is not likely to pass this year, if ever.

3) If a bill dealing with immigration ever does emerge from Congress, you can bet there will be a lot of changes and it will not closely resemble this opening proposal. It may emerge better, or worse. The only way for it to get worse is for Democrats to gain control of Congress and the WH.

I am not saying Bush shouldn't be taken to task for some of what's here. But we all know that Bush is pretty adept at strategery.

24 posted on 01/08/2004 5:09:17 PM PST by Trust but Verify (Will work for W)
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To: Dr. Marten
Reagan's amnesty, granted in 1986, legalized 2.7 million immigrants.

Dang, all our conservative heros are traitors! /sarcasm

Some facts about immigrants.

  1. The total number of immigrants per year (including illegal and refugees) is somewhat less than it was in the peak years at the start of the 20th century, when the US population was less half as large its current population. The rate of immigration relative to the population is low rather than high. Immigration as a proportion of population is about a third of what is was in the peak years in the early part of the 20th century..
  2. In the early part to of the 20th century (1910-1920) the major debate in politics was that immigrants form southern Europe were going to destroy this country.  Those sneaky "I"talians and the dirty Irishman would bring this country to ruination. It seems the hatred has shifted to immigrants from Mexico?
  3. The U.S. government has forecast a shortage of 20 million workers by 2026 due to the aging baby boom and job growth.  Under the conditions that we now confront, we should be very carefully focused on the contribution which skilled people from abroad, (as well as) unskilled people from abroad, can contribute to this country, as they have for generation after generation.
  4. By the year 2050 according to Census projections racial and ethnic minorities will outnumber non-Hispanic whites. In the next fifty years this demographic shift will transform politics and business.  If us conservatives  lose the Hispanic vote, then we lose the nation.
  5. In the last decade hi tech professional immigrants have made extraordinary contributions to cutting edge US industries. It is estimated that almost one quarter of Silicon valley firms were established by immigrants. 
  6. Businesses founded by immigrants are a source of substantial economic and fiscal gain for U.S. citizens. Ten high-tech firms founded by immigrants (Intel, Sun Microsystems, Computer Associates, Solectron Lam Research, LSI Logic, AST Computer, Wang Laboratories, Amtel, Gupta Technologies, and Cypress Semiconductor) generated $32 billion in revenues in 2002. These and other businesses started by immigrants add at least another $29 billion to the total amount of taxes paid by immigrants.
  7. Immigrant entrepreneurs have revitalized neighborhood; from Dominicans in Manhattan's Washington Heights to Cubans in Miami's Little Havana, Hispanic immigrants have transformed their communities into thriving economically dynamic strongholds.  Of particular note is the resurgence of small business, which thirty years ago was in decay. Several researchers have suggested that immigration has encouraged the entrepreneurial drive of the total population, significantly contributing to this transformation.
  8. The average education of new immigrants has been increasing with each successive generation. The proportion of adult immigrants with 8 or fewer years of education has been decreasing and the proportion of adult immigrants with 16 years or more has been increasing. The proportion of immigrants with bachelor 's or postgraduate degrees is much higher than the proportion of the native labor force.
  9. Illegal aliens contribute about as much to the public coffers in taxes as they receive in benefits. New data suggests the undocumented pay about 46 percent as much in taxes as do natives, but use about 45 percent as much in services. A poll of the most respected economists found a consensus that both legal and illegal immigrants are beneficial economically.  However overall immigrants fare well in terms of income with adult, foreign-born, naturalized citizens actually have higher adjusted gross incomes (averaging $40,502) than families with U.S.-born citizens only ($35,249).  There goes the low wage myth.
  10. Most immigrants arrive in the United States in the prime of their working years. More than 70 percent of immigrants are over the age of 18 when they arrive in the United States. That means there are roughly 17.5 million immigrants in the United States today whose education and upbringing were paid for by the citizens of the sending country, not American taxpayers. The windfall to the United States of obtaining this human capital at no expense to American taxpayers is roughly $1.43 trillion. This makes immigrants a fiscal bargain for our country.
  11. Everyone knows the contribution of immigrants to the world war II effort and history. We would have lost World War II without an immigrant contribution.  Albert Einstein and his little Atomic Bomb, Welding Technology (we a stole two of these scientist from a German prison camp in France) that was required to build our war machine, A. Edward Teller the Manhattan project, B. Enrico Fermi he was instrumental in creating the first controlled nuclear fission chain reaction, A. Felix Frankfurter he served on the Supreme Court of the U.S. for 23 years, B. Andrew Carnegie eventually controlling 25% of American iron and steel production, C. Thomas Mann was one of the most acclaimed novelists of the 20th Century, ect...
  12. According to the most comprehensive study ever done on immigrants, the National Academy of Sciences (NAS) found that in all their combined roles, immigrants make indispensable contributions to our economy. They compose an increasingly essential proportion of our workforce. Through their tax payments, they help finance the costs of schools, health care, roads, welfare payments, Social Security, and the nation’s defense.
  13. New immigrants are more concentrated than natives in the youthful labor force ages when people contribute more to the public coffer than they draw from it. Of all the important facts about immigration relevant to its economic effects, this is the most important and the one which is most consistent." (Cato Institute and National Immigration Forum).  Of particular note is the resurgence of small business, which thirty years ago was in decay. Several researchers have suggested that immigration has encouraged the entrepreneurial drive of the total population, significantly contributing to this transformation.
     

25 posted on 01/08/2004 5:11:41 PM PST by BushCountry (To the last, I will grapple with Democrats. For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at Liberals.)
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To: Theodore R.; Admin Moderator
I went to the website of this Chuck Baldwin person, who wrote this article -- he is clearly a Bush hater, and has been all along. Check out his "Bush record", wehre he doesn't include a single positive thing Bush has done -- and even his worst enemies have to admit he has done great things from his accomplishments in the war on terror, to taxcuts and getting the economy going. This Chuck character is agitating conservatives against Bush and has been doing it all along.

Just so people know where he is coming from.
26 posted on 01/08/2004 5:14:51 PM PST by FairOpinion
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To: Theodore R.
Therefore, it should be obvious to all Americans that this president is willing and eager to put America's future largely in the hands of foreign criminals.

This kind of way over-the-top vitriol and mindless stupidity is no different that what moveon.org and the DU types say and do. I have never heard Chuck Baldwin's program since (as far as I know) it isn't on in the L.A. area. Now I will make a point of NEVER tuning it in even if the opportunity presents itself.

27 posted on 01/08/2004 5:15:11 PM PST by Wolfstar (George W. Bush the 1st truly great world leader of the 21st Century)
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To: hobson
Haven't read it yet, but I'll try to give it a shot when I get some free time in this semester.
28 posted on 01/08/2004 5:17:45 PM PST by Dr. Marten ("My affections are first for my own country,and then, generally, for all mankind" ~Thomas Jefferson)
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To: FairOpinion
I agree somewhat. While Bush's plan, if enacted, would cause quite a disaster and the elimination of the middle class, for it to be treason that would have to be Bush's motive. Call me naive but I see it as more likely that he's very badly mistaken rather than harboring an outward hatred for this country.
29 posted on 01/08/2004 5:18:44 PM PST by KantianBurke (Don't Tread on Me)
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To: Zipporah
Bush swore an oath to uphold the laws of the United States and our Constitution. Failing to uphold the law, and direct others to not uphold the law is dereliction of duty and treason.

The whole illegal worker issue is money driven. The powers that be have discovered an untapped source of billions of dollars of revenue that voters are not as likely to resist. Unlike being faced with a tax increase, taking "revenue" from illegal workers would be more justified since the illegal workers are violating the law anyhow.

In this sick and twisted concept, Able bodied Americans who recieve welfare continue to recieve public "grants" instead of being forced to take the jobs that "no Americans want". The illegals are hunger driven. Freeloading Americans need to know hunger again. Filling those jobs with hungry Americans will dry up the opportunity and the incentive for illegals to seek work in America. Prosecuting employers who violate the law by harboring illegal immigrants will further close the incentive of multilevel law violations.

Pandering for votes from a dependent populace only strengthens the resolve to propagate dependency, which equates into control and political power. Overlooking illegal immigration is a serious flaw in the war on terrorism.
30 posted on 01/08/2004 5:22:04 PM PST by o_zarkman44
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To: Trust but Verify
Unfortunately, these days there is no such thing as putting out a proposal and having a "debate" on the subject. Just look at the vitriolic reactions from the Democrats (as well as conservatives). TREASON? What the hell, let's each one of us try to outshout the other and be more outrageous than the one before. This is what the term "national debate" has been reduced to. Welcome to the new America of two minute shouting matches on CNN or Fox.

I think I'll tune out...

31 posted on 01/08/2004 5:39:46 PM PST by Russ
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To: Theodore R.
TREASON!.....

Its worse than treason... anybody can get away with treason in the US these days... what it is ,,"IS".. a democrat voter registration campaign.. Bush is a very special republican to do that... a unite'er not a divider and a compassionate "conservative... -AND- the republican party may even survive it.. albeit not as it was before.. but don't quote me on that

32 posted on 01/08/2004 5:44:24 PM PST by hosepipe
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To: Russ
Yep. I don't know which side is more ridiculous anymore.
33 posted on 01/08/2004 5:44:43 PM PST by Trust but Verify (Will work for W)
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To: FairOpinion
I'm thinking Chuckie must be related to Alec. Here's a link to Baldwin's version of the Bush record: http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/bushrecord.html
34 posted on 01/08/2004 6:10:28 PM PST by elli1
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To: elli1
http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/bushrecord.html
35 posted on 01/08/2004 6:11:05 PM PST by elli1
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To: FairOpinion
I went to the website of this Chuck Baldwin person, who wrote this article -- he is clearly a Bush hater, and has been all along.

According to the way history is playing out here, this guy could be considered a visionary.

36 posted on 01/08/2004 6:15:08 PM PST by eskimo
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To: Theodore R.
Do guidelines allow one to say "Chuck U. Farley" in a post?
37 posted on 01/08/2004 6:34:27 PM PST by zook
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To: breakem
Yes, MX has 80 to 100 million people, and if there are 8 to 10 million illegals, that is 10 percent of the Mexico population.
38 posted on 01/08/2004 6:39:06 PM PST by Theodore R. (When will they ever learn?)
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To: elli1
This Chuck Baldwin is unrelated to the Baldwin actor brothers. He is based in Pensacola and was formerly the head of the FL Moral Majority. He strongly opposed Clinton, and now he strongly opposes Bush. In that regard he is a little like the late Joseph McCarthy, who (rightly or wrongly) opposed both Truman and Eisenhower for "coddling" communists.
39 posted on 01/08/2004 6:41:24 PM PST by Theodore R. (When will they ever learn?)
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To: Theodore R.
bump
40 posted on 01/08/2004 6:41:24 PM PST by Lady Eileen
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To: breakem
Already, more than ten percent of Mexico's population is living illegally in the United States.


Chuckie is blowing smoke or on something I suspect. He gives no basis for that statement whatsoever. Depending upon whose numbers you use there are some 10 million or so attributed to be in the US illegal.... The Census allows maybe 50% or so to be from the Americas South of the US Border with Mexico having the largest share of them, maybe 60%+ or so. The next largest group is East/Southeast Asia at something less than 3 million..... the remainder is from around the rest of the world..... Also about 50% or more of the illegals enter the US legally with visas and never leave.... Students, workers, etc. The US never follows up and persues their deportation.
41 posted on 01/08/2004 7:41:15 PM PST by deport (..... DONATE TO FREEREPUBLIC......)
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To: Theodore R.
I knew I liked him for some reason. The concept of "standing on principal" has become an inside joke to both party's politicians, an obstruction to practical deal-making while away from our view yet a concept they trade notes on when election cycles roll around.
The Constitution Party is looking better all the time, so long as they run a person better suited than the last one.
That guy was actually making the case for the Green Party candidate!
42 posted on 01/08/2004 8:15:27 PM PST by NewRomeTacitus (Has anyone gone out and come back as an alien yet? It's the new path to success.)
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To: Theodore R.
If the only remaining difference between left and right is this nations defense then how will this bill help in the war on terror?

We currently only have ( apparently) 2000 Immigration guys that can check people out.

Now do you think its wise to now wise these limited resources to do checks on perhaps millions of immigrants from Mexico?

Or would it be better for this nation’s security to have them working on Arabs, Muslims?

Source:
The Washington Times
http://www.washingtontimes.com/functions/print.php?StoryID=20040107-103029-5660r
Border authorities fear influx from Bush plan
By Jerry Seper
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
Published January 8, 2004


“They said only 2,000 agents are available to review the millions of applicants that might be submitted. “
"When U.S. immigration officials were tasked with the responsibility of checking immigrants coming into the United States from the Middle East after September 11, it tied up all of INS' resources and caused significant delays," Mr. Cutler said. "When this country had problems trying to properly identify a few thousand people, how is it going to do the same with a few million?"
43 posted on 01/08/2004 8:25:14 PM PST by Kay Soze (How will refocusing INS resources from the war on terror to millions of Mexicans make US safer?)
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To: Zipporah
Right on!
44 posted on 01/08/2004 9:07:35 PM PST by Bella
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To: KantianBurke
I am glad that at least you agree that Bush would never do anything to deliberately hurt the country -- for political motives or any other motives, UNLIKE THE DEMOCRATS.

However:

"While Bush's plan, if enacted, would cause quite a disaster and the elimination of the middle class"


You are over reacting.


"Call me naive but I see it as more likely that he's very badly mistaken rather than harboring an outward hatred for this country."

Bush is also smarter than people give him credit -- I think people fail to notice that Bush is NOT giving the illegals any instant amnesty or instant green cards.

And people also ignore that NOBODY has any other realistic solution to the illegals already in the US -- it is not realistic to expect to send the police and the army to go house to house and search out the 12 million illegals in the country and drag them across the borders kicking and screaming.

Bush is doing the absolute best possible with a bad situation.

The main objective is to stop them at the borders, so more of them can't come in.

Bush is giviing them a chance to work -- he should be applauded by conservatives that he is NOT giving them a blanket amnesty. This way, productive people can work for a while, then maybe stay or maybe not, but he is not legitimizing those who are sitting here using up welfare. THIS is a key part.
45 posted on 01/08/2004 9:22:00 PM PST by FairOpinion
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Comment #46 Removed by Moderator

To: Theodore R.
How can you "border" on Treason? Either it is or it isn't. Baldwin has no guts.
47 posted on 01/08/2004 9:24:38 PM PST by Texasforever
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To: Russ
"TREASON? What the hell, let's each one of us try to outshout the other and be more outrageous than the one before. "

==

What more, let's all attack Bush and yell that he is committing "treason" and let's elect a Bin Laden and Saddam-loving Democrat instead, that'll show Bush.

Wait, we already did that, when the outraged conservatives elected Clinton, to punish Bush I. Guess who really got punished -- the country and all of us.

But let's do it again!

Bush isn't a good enough conservative, in the view of some, so let's elect Dean.

Great logic!

(/sarcasm)
48 posted on 01/08/2004 9:28:30 PM PST by FairOpinion
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To: Theodore R.
A surprising threat to freedom-Campaign Finance Reform thread-day 29

49 posted on 01/08/2004 9:36:22 PM PST by The_Eaglet (Peroutka for President)
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To: Dr. Marten
On one hand I can agree with you, but on the other...what do you call the act of sacrificing the best interest of America in order to gain the votes of a growing illegal population who has the best interests of their own country in mind?

You fell into that trap that once they obtain this "temporary work visa" they're automatically citizens. This work visa is not a drivers license, nor is it a voter card. Many states require drivers licenses to vote. The ones held to account are the businesses (large or small) who currently employ ILLEGALS. The ones who want to stay here to make a living will go out and apply for citizenship. The others who possess the card will get kicked the hell out by the business owner who hired them and the US government who granted the card, once the card expires. If the business owner doesn't kick them out, the US Government will penalize them and the illegal with the expired card.

50 posted on 01/08/2004 9:36:43 PM PST by BigSkyFreeper
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