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Black Confederates
phxnews ^ | January 8, 2004 | Charles Goodson

Posted on 01/08/2004 6:40:27 PM PST by stainlessbanner

Black Confederates Why haven't we heard more about them? National Park Service historian, Ed Bearrs, stated, "I don't want to call it a conspiracy to ignore the role of Blacks both above and below the Mason-Dixon line, but it was definitely a tendency that began around 1910" Historian, Erwin L. Jordan, Jr., calls it a "cover-up" which started back in 1865. He writes, "During my research, I came across instances where Black men stated they were soldiers, but you can plainly see where 'soldier' is crossed out and 'body servant' inserted, or 'teamster' on pension applications." Another black historian, Roland Young, says he is not surprised that blacks fought. He explains that "some, if not most, Black southerners would support their country" and that by doing so they were "demonstrating it's possible to hate the system of slavery and love one's country." This is the very same reaction that most African Americans showed during the American Revolution, where they fought for the colonies, even though the British offered them freedom if they fought for them.

It has been estimated that over 65,000 Southern blacks were in the Confederate ranks. Over 13,000 of these, "saw the elephant" also known as meeting the enemy in combat. These Black Confederates included both slave and free. The Confederate Congress did not approve blacks to be officially enlisted as soldiers (except as musicians), until late in the war. But in the ranks it was a different story. Many Confederate officers did not obey the mandates of politicians, they frequently enlisted blacks with the simple criteria, "Will you fight?" Historian Ervin Jordan, explains that "biracial units" were frequently organized "by local Confederate and State militia Commanders in response to immediate threats in the form of Union raids". Dr. Leonard Haynes, an African-American professor at Southern University, stated, "When you eliminate the black Confederate soldier, you've eliminated the history of the South."

As the war came to an end, the Confederacy took progressive measures to build back up its army. The creation of the Confederate States Colored Troops, copied after the segregated northern colored troops, came too late to be successful. Had the Confederacy been successful, it would have created the world's largest armies (at the time) consisting of black soldiers,even larger than that of the North. This would have given the future of the Confederacy a vastly different appearance than what modern day racist or anti-Confederate liberals conjecture. Not only did Jefferson Davis envision black Confederate veterans receiving bounty lands for their service, there would have been no future for slavery after the goal of 300,000 armed black CSA veterans came home after the war.

1. The "Richmond Howitzers" were partially manned by black militiamen. They saw action at 1st Manassas (or 1st Battle of Bull Run) where they operated battery no. 2. In addition two black "regiments", one free and one slave, participated in the battle on behalf of the South. "Many colored people were killed in the action", recorded John Parker, a former slave.

2. At least one Black Confederate was a non-commissioned officer. James Washington, Co. D 35th Texas Cavalry, Confederate States Army, became it's 3rd Sergeant. Higher ranking black commissioned officers served in militia units, but this was on the State militia level (Louisiana)and not in the regular C.S. Army.

3. Free black musicians, cooks, soldiers and teamsters earned the same pay as white confederate privates. This was not the case in the Union army where blacks did not receive equal pay. At the Confederate Buffalo Forge in Rockbridge County, Virginia, skilled black workers "earned on average three times the wages of white Confederate soldiers and more than most Confederate army officers ($350- $600 a year).

4. Dr. Lewis Steiner, Chief Inspector of the United States Sanitary Commission while observing Gen. "Stonewall" Jackson's occupation of Frederick, Maryland, in 1862: "Over 3,000 Negroes must be included in this number [Confederate troops]. These were clad in all kinds of uniforms, not only in cast-off or captured United States uniforms, but in coats with Southern buttons, State buttons, etc. These were shabby, but not shabbier or seedier than those worn by white men in the rebel ranks. Most of the Negroes had arms, rifles, muskets, sabers, bowie-knives, dirks, etc.....and were manifestly an integral portion of the Southern Confederate Army."

5. Frederick Douglas reported, "There are at the present moment many Colored men in the Confederate Army doing duty not only as cooks, servants and laborers, but real soldiers, having musket on their shoulders, and bullets in their pockets, ready to shoot down any loyal troops and do all that soldiers may do to destroy the Federal government and build up that of the rebels."

6. Black and white militiamen returned heavy fire on Union troops at the Battle of Griswoldsville (near Macon, GA). Approximately 600 boys and elderly men were killed in this skirmish.

7. In 1864, President Jefferson Davis approved a plan that proposed the emancipation of slaves, in return for the official recognition of the Confederacy by Britain and France. France showed interest but Britain refused.

8. The Jackson Battalion included two companies of black soldiers. They saw combat at Petersburg under Col. Shipp. "My men acted with utmost promptness and goodwill...Allow me to state sir that they behaved in an extraordinary acceptable manner."

9. Recently the National Park Service, with a recent discovery, recognized that blacks were asked to help defend the city of Petersburg, Virginia and were offered their freedom if they did so. Regardless of their official classification, black Americans performed support functions that in today's army many would be classified as official military service. The successes of white Confederate troops in battle, could only have been achieved with the support these loyal black Southerners.

10. Confederate General John B. Gordon (Army of Northern Virginia) reported that all of his troops were in favor of Colored troops and that it's adoption would have "greatly encouraged the army". Gen. Lee was anxious to receive regiments of black soldiers. The Richmond Sentinel reported on 24 Mar 1864, "None will deny that our servants are more worthy of respect than the motley hordes which come against us." "Bad faith [to black Confederates] must be avoided as an indelible dishonor."

11. In March 1865, Judah P. Benjamin, Confederate Secretary Of State, promised freedom for blacks who served from the State of Virginia. Authority for this was finally received from the State of Virginia and on April 1st 1865, $100 bounties were offered to black soldiers. Benjamin exclaimed, "Let us say to every Negro who wants to go into the ranks, go and fight, and you are free Fight for your masters and you shall have your freedom." Confederate Officers were ordered to treat them humanely and protect them from "injustice and oppression".

12. A quota was set for 300,000 black soldiers for the Confederate States Colored Troops. 83% of Richmond's male slave population volunteered for duty. A special ball was held in Richmond to raise money for uniforms for these men. Before Richmond fell, black Confederates in gray uniforms drilled in the streets. Due to the war ending, it is believed only companies or squads of these troops ever saw any action. Many more black soldiers fought for the North, but that difference was simply a difference because the North instituted this progressive policy more sooner than the more conservative South. Black soldiers from both sides received discrimination from whites who opposed the concept .

13. Union General U.S. Grant in Feb 1865, ordered the capture of "all the Negro men before the enemy can put them in their ranks." Frederick Douglass warned Lincoln that unless slaves were guaranteed freedom (those in Union controlled areas were still slaves) and land bounties, "they would take up arms for the rebels".

14. On April 4, 1865 (Amelia County, VA), a Confederate supply train was exclusively manned and guarded by black Infantry. When attacked by Federal Cavalry, they stood their ground and fought off the charge, but on the second charge they were overwhelmed. These soldiers are believed to be from "Major Turner's" Confederate command.

15. A Black Confederate, George _____, when captured by Federals was bribed to desert to the other side. He defiantly spoke, "Sir, you want me to desert, and I ain't no deserter. Down South, deserters disgrace their families and I am never going to do that."

16. Former slave, Horace King, accumulated great wealth as a contractor to the Confederate Navy. He was also an expert engineer and became known as the "Bridge builder of the Confederacy." One of his bridges was burned in a Yankee raid. His home was pillaged by Union troops, as his wife pleaded for mercy.

17. As of Feb. 1865 1,150 black seamen served in the Confederate Navy. One of these was among the last Confederates to surrender, aboard the CSS Shenandoah, six months after the war ended. This surrender took place in England.

18. Nearly 180,000 Black Southerners, from Virginia alone, provided logistical support for the Confederate military. Many were highly skilled workers. These included a wide range of jobs: nurses, military engineers, teamsters, ordnance department workers, brakemen, firemen, harness makers, blacksmiths, wagonmakers, boatmen, mechanics, wheelwrights, etc. In the 1920'S Confederate pensions were finally allowed to some of those workers that were still living. Many thousands more served in other Confederate States.

19. During the early 1900's, many members of the United Confederate Veterans (UCV) advocated awarding former slaves rural acreage and a home. There was hope that justice could be given those slaves that were once promised "forty acres and a mule" but never received any. In the 1913 Confederate Veteran magazine published by the UCV, it was printed that this plan "If not Democratic, it is [the] Confederate" thing to do. There was much gratitude toward former slaves, which "thousands were loyal, to the last degree", now living with total poverty of the big cities. Unfortunately, their proposal fell on deaf ears on Capitol Hill.

20. During the 50th Anniversary of the Battle of Gettysburg in 1913, arrangements were made for a joint reunion of Union and Confederate veterans. The commission in charge of the event made sure they had enough accommodations for the black Union veterans, but were completely surprised when unexpected black Confederates arrived. The white Confederates immediately welcomed their old comrades, gave them one of their tents, and "saw to their every need". Nearly every Confederate reunion including those blacks that served with them, wearing the gray.

21. The first military monument in the US Capitol that honors an African-American soldier is the Confederate monument at Arlington National cemetery. The monument was designed 1914 by Moses Ezekiel, a Jewish Confederate. Who wanted to correctly portray the "racial makeup" in the Confederate Army. A black Confederate soldier is depicted marching in step with white Confederate soldiers. Also shown is one "white soldier giving his child to a black woman for protection".- source: Edward Smith, African American professor at the American University, Washington DC.

22. Black Confederate heritage is beginning to receive the attention it deserves. For instance, Terri Williams, a black journalist for the Suffolk "Virginia Pilot" newspaper, writes: "I've had to re-examine my feelings toward the [Confederate] flag started when I read a newspaper article about an elderly black man whose ancestor worked with the Confederate forces. The man spoke with pride about his family member's contribution to the cause, was photographed with the [Confederate] flag draped over his lap that's why I now have no definite stand on just what the flag symbolizes, because it no longer is their history, or my history, but our history."


TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: black; blackconfederates; confederate; dixie; dixielist; heritage; honor; soldier
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To: AnAmericanMother
Same thing here with the neighbors, with my mother being a teacher and our black neighbor, Welcome Maison being the principal.

And by the way, we have Garrison Hurst here in Lincolnton and Rome doesn't. Red Devil football, the best in the state.
101 posted on 01/09/2004 7:25:14 PM PST by U S Army EOD (When the EOD technician screws up, he is always the first to notice.)
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To: U S Army EOD
Have you read The Guns of the South? Interesting alternative history. I'm sorry Turtledove felt like he had to put in the fantasy-time travel element - Life magazine did a better job of hypothesizing a series of cumulative breaks for the South (A.S. Johnston and Stonewall survived; no Pickett's Charge; Lee cuts off the reinforcements coming in to Gettysburg, etc.) to get the same result.

I wonder who would have called the Smith-Jones game, and if it was Howard Cosell, what would he have said? ;-)

102 posted on 01/09/2004 7:29:26 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (. . . sed, ut scis, quis homines huiusmodi intellegere potest?. . .)
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To: AnAmericanMother
No never read the book. Have no idea who would have called the game. But little quirks of fate make you wonder sometime what would have really happened.

And when you think of alternate history you wonder how much of the history that is written down is actual history and not an alternate interpretation of history because the writer didn't like the facts and decided to change a few events here and there.

In saying this, it is interesting how different the personnal accounts from what you read about from your relatives and the ones that I have seen differ from the offical history books.
103 posted on 01/09/2004 7:35:16 PM PST by U S Army EOD (When the EOD technician screws up, he is always the first to notice.)
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To: U S Army EOD
They also received excellent medical care you don't let an investment like that just die off.

"Frustrated in their attempts to change the law, fire-eaters turned their efforts to breaking it. The most famous example of the illicit slave trade in the 1850's was the schooner Wanderer, owned by Charles A. L. Lamar, member of a famous and powerful southern family. Lamar orgnized a syndicate that sent several ships to Africa for slaves. One of these pas the Wanderer, a fast yacht that took on a cargo of five hundred africans in 1858. The four hundred survivors

of the voyage to Georgia earned Lamar a large profit. But federal officials had got wind of the affair and arrested Lamar along with several crew members. Savannah juries acquitted all of them. The grand jurors who had indicted Lamar suffered so much vilification from the local press as dupes of Yankee imitators that they published a bizarre recantation of their action and advocated repeal of the 1807 law prohibiting the slave trade. "Longer to yield to a sickly sentiment of pretended philanthropy and diseased mental aberration of 'higher law' fanatics," said the jurors in reference to opponents of the trade, "is weak and unwise." When northerners criticized the acquittal of Lamar, a southern newspaper denounced Yankee Hypocrisy: "What is the difference between a Yankee violating the fugitive slave law in the North, and a Southern man violating . . . the law 'against the African slave trade in the South?" Lamar repurchased the Wanderer at public auction and went on with his slave-trading ventures until the Civil War, in which he was killed at the head of his regiment."

Battle Cry of Freedom, p 103, by James McPherson

Twenty percent of the Wanderer's cargo died on the way here.

Walt

104 posted on 01/09/2004 7:37:41 PM PST by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: U S Army EOD
Nobody in our family has played football since my grandfather (class of '18) started for Ga. Tech at halfback. My dad swam for Darlington and Emory, I didn't play sports in high school and just weird stuff like fencing and equestrian team in college.

I don't think I have ever been to more than one or two football games, and my daughter (who's now at the same high school) has no interest either. You know the private schools got shafted by Speaker Murphy as one of his last acts in office, so I don't expect we'll be winning at anything except debate and lacrosse for 15-20 years now . . . But I'm glad you have a good football team! :-D

105 posted on 01/09/2004 7:38:24 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (. . . sed, ut scis, quis homines huiusmodi intellegere potest?. . .)
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To: Colt .45
A salute to those black confederates who fought for the freedom we all lost when the damnYankees won.

There were practically no black confederates.

But this is interesting:

" Kudos to Carroll Wilson for his Sunday column ("A lack of evidence: Blacks did not fight for the South, despite what Confederate apologists argue," July 9, page 6B). Robert McNeely's (letter to the editor, "Fighting for states rights," March 25, page 6B) and Randy Hill's (letter to the editor, "Blacks fought for South,"March 24, page 7B) reference to the 1st Louisiana Regiment of Native Guards has enough spin on it to make a statue of Abe Lincoln dizzy.

The Louisiana "Native Guards" were organized years before the Civil War. When the war came, they offered themselves to the Confederate leadership because it was the only government they had to offer themselves to in order to maintain and enhance their status as "free people of color." But the Confederacy turned down the offer. When the United States took New Orleans, the Native Guards offered themselves to the United States for the rest of the war, killing many Confederates.

When New Orleans was evacuated by the Confederate authorities in March 1862 they were ordered to report to Mjr. Gen. John Lewis, who commanded the state militia under the orders of Gov. Thomas O. Moore, but the Native Guards did not leave. The Creole in command, instead of following the Confederate troops out of the city when they evacuated it, allowed his command to be cut off, and then volunteered to Union Gen. Butler to serve in the Union. On June 6, 1863, the four regiments of the Louisiana Guards were transferred into the Corps d'Afrique. On April 4, 1864, these regiments were designated the 73rd, 74th, 75th and 76th Regiments of Infantry, United States Colored Troops, respectively, and served in that capacity 'til the end of the Civil War. On May 27, 1863, the "free blacks" of the Louisiana Regiments were to distinguish themselves in the battle of Port Hudson against Confederate forces before the 54th Massachusetts Regiment would storm Fort Wagner and gain modern fame in the movie "Glory." An editorial in the New York Tribune of June 8,1863, eloquently declared: "That heap of six hundred corpses, lying there dark and grim and silent and within the Rebel works, is a better proclamation of freedom than even President Lincoln's. A race ready to die thus was never yet retained in bondage and never can be."

Walt

106 posted on 01/09/2004 7:41:30 PM PST by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: WhiskeyPapa
Quite late and quite unusual, and as MacPherson himself notes more of a political action by "fire-eaters" than the ordinary course of business. The vast majority of slaves were imported long before the 1850s, and by New Englanders.
107 posted on 01/09/2004 7:42:47 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (. . . sed, ut scis, quis homines huiusmodi intellegere potest?. . .)
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To: Colt .45
A salute to those black confederates who fought for the freedom we all lost when the damnYankees won.

I thought this was neat.

"On the steaming night of June 6, 1863, four rebel regiments surprised black guards. The black novices, soldiers for only sixteen days, fumbled with their guns, fell back, stood firm, and flashed their bayonets. The blacks' white captain called the ensuing bayonet brawl "a horrible fight, the worst I was ever engaged in—not even excepting Shiloh."

In one ironic tableau, a Union black and a Confederate white lay slam, arms locked like brothers, each with the other's bayonet planted in his belly. At last, a Union ship reinforced the unyielding blacks, and the rebels retreated.

Black soldiers, declared an astounded Confederate battle report, resisted us "with considerable obstinacy, while the white or true Yankee portion ran like whipped curs."

One Confederate master suffered the best proof of black obstinacy. His slave captured him "and brought him into camp with great gusto." A Wisconsin cavalry officer described the lesson many Northerners learned from Fort Wagner and Milliken's Bend (and from the battle for Port Hudson, Louisiana, where black troops futilely charged and their bodies were left to rot under the blazing sun), "I never believed in niggers before, but by Jasus, they are hell for fighting."

--"The South vs. the South" p. 127 by William Freehling

Guess them white boys just weren't suited for fighting.

Walt

108 posted on 01/09/2004 7:47:15 PM PST by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: WhiskeyPapa
Once again read before you speak, we are not talking about what happened on the ships we are talking about on the established plantations. Most if not all of the ships were Northern owned or crewed. I would compare the illicit trade slave at that time since it was outlawed in 1807 to bringing illegal immigrants into this country in modern times who also seem to die off at an alarming rate.

When and if you do check your history, check also how many immigrants coming to the New World died on the voyage over, especially the children.

After reading most of your comments on the threads about the Civil War it is quite apparent that you basically only care to try and discredit the South instead of actually discussing history. You are quite consistant in this.
109 posted on 01/09/2004 7:48:16 PM PST by U S Army EOD (When the EOD technician screws up, he is always the first to notice.)
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To: AnAmericanMother
Quite late and quite unusual, and as MacPherson himself notes more of a political action by "fire-eaters" than the ordinary course of business.

What McPherson notes is that Lamar received a large profit.

No lie is too grotesque for confederate apologists.

Walt

110 posted on 01/09/2004 7:57:06 PM PST by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: x
X, Thank you for the link! I found my great grand father there! Here is what they have on him....

Charles V. Lombardi (First_Last) Regiment Name 39 U.S. Col'd. Infantry Side Union Company BF Soldier's Rank_In Lieut. Soldier's Rank_Out Lieut. Alternate Name Notes Film Number M589 roll 55

--------------------------------------

African American Civil War Memorial Displayed as: Charles V. Lombardi Plaque Number: C-54 --------------------------------------

We have his service record in our possession. It states he survived the Battle but that he was killed when the Fort's powder magazine blew up. He was a Captain in Gen. Garibaldi's Red Shirt Volunteers in Italy, before coming to America to fight specifically to free the slaves. He also fought at the Battle of Petersburg, and survived the Battle of the Crater here.

Here's his picture taken ca. 1861......

.............................................
111 posted on 01/09/2004 7:57:19 PM PST by Main Street (Stuck in traffic.)
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To: U S Army EOD
Most if not all of the ships were Northern owned or crewed.

False. Most slave ships were flagged in Britain.

Walt

112 posted on 01/09/2004 7:58:28 PM PST by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: dwd1
"And no one, given the choice, would like to be treated like a horse...."- dwd1

dwd1, I understand what your saying, and agree, when a man is living under normal circumstance. However, I know of many circumstances in history, if men were giving a choice, life time bondage on a Southern Plantation would have been snatched up in an instant.
113 posted on 01/09/2004 7:59:13 PM PST by Main Street (Stuck in traffic.)
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To: U S Army EOD
After reading most of your comments on the threads about the Civil War it is quite apparent that you basically only care to try and discredit the South instead of actually discussing history. You are quite consistant in this.

It sure didn't take much effort to prove you were lying about which armored divison broke into Bastogne.

Walt

114 posted on 01/09/2004 8:00:28 PM PST by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: mac_truck
mac_truck,

What you say is valid, but so is the information U S Army EOD, and AnAmericanMother have posted. Both have shown that they have an understanding of history that is not taught in today's liberal PC history classes. The reality is, that, as miserable as the conditions of those ships were, they were designed for human transport, and to bring as many of their human cargo here alive as possible to maximize profits. White slaves and indentured servants, had little monetary value, and often were treated much worse, and traveled on ships in conditions that equaled or surpassed that misery, if you can imagine.
115 posted on 01/09/2004 8:01:29 PM PST by Main Street (Stuck in traffic.)
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To: U S Army EOD
...it is quite apparent that you basically only care to try and discredit the South...

Well, that is pretty easy, I will admit.

The rebels were --damned--traitors--every--one--.

Walt

116 posted on 01/09/2004 8:03:08 PM PST by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: WhiskeyPapa
Wlat, this gets quite old. You seem determined to abuse all Southerners and find nothing but evil everywhere.

I am no apologist as you should know. Slavery was an unmitigated evil and did no good for anybody anywhere. It does not follow however that all Confederates were depraved monsters with the worst possible motives. So long as you jump in with your superior attitude, scatter-shot abuse, and masses of supercopied undigested material, nobody is going to give your views much credence.

117 posted on 01/09/2004 8:04:21 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (. . . sed, ut scis, quis homines huiusmodi intellegere potest?. . .)
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To: WhiskeyPapa
I didn't say they broke into Bastone, they were the first to push the Germans back. They then defended Bastone against 5 German divisions. Check a little more and you might find out what happened.

You are one little sicko. Lots of emotion, sonny.
118 posted on 01/09/2004 8:04:57 PM PST by U S Army EOD (When the EOD technician screws up, he is always the first to notice.)
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To: WhiskeyPapa
Yeah, and all those ships sailing around now with Liberian registry were built, captained and crewed from Monrovia, right?
119 posted on 01/09/2004 8:05:56 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (. . . sed, ut scis, quis homines huiusmodi intellegere potest?. . .)
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To: WhiskeyPapa
You are wrong again, the English hunted slavers.
120 posted on 01/09/2004 8:06:57 PM PST by U S Army EOD (When the EOD technician screws up, he is always the first to notice.)
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To: U S Army EOD
I didn't say they broke into Bastone, they were the first to push the Germans back.

Bastogne.

Here's what you wrote;

"They were the first to break through the German lines with the 4th Armored following through their successes and getting all the credit and glory for it."

4th AD broke into Bastogne.

Lt. Col Abrams was the C.O. of the unit that broke in.

How odd you bounced on his knee and didn't know that.

Walt

121 posted on 01/09/2004 8:09:16 PM PST by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: WhiskeyPapa
Tell it to your srink.
122 posted on 01/09/2004 8:09:23 PM PST by U S Army EOD (When the EOD technician screws up, he is always the first to notice.)
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To: WhiskeyPapa
Thats right the 4th AD capitilized on what the 6th did. Did you read any of the history on the 6th. How many of these people have you personally met and talked to and how many of the actual histories do you own and have read? I went to Bastone when I was very young but still can remember what I saw there. Everything around there had Nuts still painted on it as late as 1950-1951. This was long before you were still poo pooing yellow, sonny.

You really need help.
123 posted on 01/09/2004 8:15:36 PM PST by U S Army EOD (When the EOD technician screws up, he is always the first to notice.)
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To: Main Street
Yep, black, while, yellow, or red back then, it was not good to be on the bottom of the economic ladder.
124 posted on 01/09/2004 8:17:09 PM PST by U S Army EOD (When the EOD technician screws up, he is always the first to notice.)
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To: U S Army EOD
I went to Bastone...

Bastogne.

Walt

125 posted on 01/09/2004 8:18:52 PM PST by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: U S Army EOD
You are wrong again, the English hunted slavers.

The slave trade was outlawed in the U.S. in 1808.

The British outlawed slavery in 1833.

Walt

126 posted on 01/09/2004 8:20:38 PM PST by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: WhiskeyPapa
So
127 posted on 01/09/2004 8:25:12 PM PST by U S Army EOD (When the EOD technician screws up, he is always the first to notice.)
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To: U S Army EOD
Did you read any of the history on the 6th.

Both the 4th and 6th AD's were outstanding units. General Robert Grow of the Super Sixth and General John S. Wood were both outstanding commanders. I have Baldwin's bio of General Wood, "Tiger Jack".

The 6th I am less familar with, but I know you know even less.

Walt

128 posted on 01/09/2004 8:25:14 PM PST by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: WhiskeyPapa
Shouldn't you take something to calm down and try to get back on the actual subject. Why do you enjoy starting fights with people, not just me but a lot of other FReepers? This was a pretty good thread until you started trying to get attention again.
129 posted on 01/09/2004 8:27:52 PM PST by U S Army EOD (When the EOD technician screws up, he is always the first to notice.)
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To: U S Army EOD; stainlessbanner
I was about to FReepmail Mr.B and congratulate him on a civil war thread that actually turned out to be W--- free and very decent.
130 posted on 01/09/2004 8:31:01 PM PST by cyborg
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To: WhiskeyPapa
I got my information from the official division hstory book of the 6th Armored and combat history of the 15th Tank Bn both of which I still have copies. I also got it from my father and other members of the division who were actually there. How about you?

What has this got to do with Black Confederates?

Why do you like to upset people? Has this got anything to do with you being banned before?
131 posted on 01/09/2004 8:33:47 PM PST by U S Army EOD (When the EOD technician screws up, he is always the first to notice.)
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To: cyborg
Yes but then along came Walt, sigh and things just turned to doo doo as they normally do when he shows up.
132 posted on 01/09/2004 8:37:51 PM PST by U S Army EOD (When the EOD technician screws up, he is always the first to notice.)
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To: U S Army EOD
Shouldn't you take something to calm down and try to get back on the actual subject.

I enjoy exposing liars and the clueless.

I'm still trying to figure where you fit.

Walt

133 posted on 01/09/2004 8:37:59 PM PST by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: WhiskeyPapa
Walt all your life you will probably trying to figure out things but you never will.
134 posted on 01/09/2004 8:41:37 PM PST by U S Army EOD (When the EOD technician screws up, he is always the first to notice.)
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To: U S Army EOD
Shouldn't you take something to calm down...

Still online?

What was the word that appeared on the 4th AD patch? What was the nickname of the 4th AD?

Tick tick. Time now is @ 11:45 EST.

Walt

135 posted on 01/09/2004 8:42:16 PM PST by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: WhiskeyPapa
This thread is about Black Conferates isn't it?
136 posted on 01/09/2004 8:44:03 PM PST by U S Army EOD (When the EOD technician screws up, he is always the first to notice.)
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To: U S Army EOD
This thread is about Black Conferates isn't it?

4th AD ia known as the "Breakthrough" division.

That word appears on the division patch.

1 AD: Old Ironsides

2 AD Hell on Wheels

3 AD Thundering Third (I think)

4th AD -- the Breakthough Division.

And -you- knew General Abrams?

What was the name he gave to all his tanks?

Tick tick.

Walt

137 posted on 01/09/2004 8:49:47 PM PST by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: U S Army EOD; stainlessbanner
This thread is about Black Conferates isn't it?

This thread is about ignorance.

Walt

138 posted on 01/09/2004 8:52:25 PM PST by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: U S Army EOD
By the way, I have a picture of me about 6 years old sitting in the lap of Col. Abrams in Hersfield, Germany in about 1951...

The name of all of Lt. Col. Abrams's tanks was "THUNDERBOLT".

Since you don't seem to know.

Walt

139 posted on 01/09/2004 8:57:42 PM PST by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: WhiskeyPapa; U S Army EOD
False. Most slave ships were flagged in Britain

False

With Great Britain, France, Portugal, Spain, and the United States all having outlawed the Slave Trade by 1820, military efforts were begun by all these nations to enforce the ban

With no way of stopping them, vessels flying the US flag were virtually immune from prosecution, and American ships entered a golden period of slave trading

For the next twenty years, ensuring the ability of US ships to sail unimpeded by others was the main object of the African Squadron

Here

Slavers in the 19th century often found protection for the illicit trade by sailing their vessels under the American flag. This unintended haven was the result of a deep-seated distrust of the fledgling United States toward the British, and their policies in Africa. Since the Revolutionary War and the War of 1812, Great Britain had been the traditional political rival of the US; and as the young nation’s productivity began to grow, also an economic rival.

Here

Of course I'm sure a list of at least some of the ships flying under the union colors and delivering slaves could be produced if need be.

140 posted on 01/09/2004 9:10:06 PM PST by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: Main Street
That's awesome! The Soldier/Sailor website is extremely good. I've found all my relations on it without any trouble other than spelling their first names a couple of different ways.

If you want further information, the U.S. Archives branches in various cities have copies of the microfilms of the original muster rolls and service records, including hospital records and pension applications. They are very friendly and happy to help you look folks up.

141 posted on 01/09/2004 9:16:59 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (. . . sed, ut scis, quis homines huiusmodi intellegere potest?. . .)
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To: Main Street; dwd1
"And no one, given the choice, would like to be treated like a horse...."- dwd1

< joking > I would like to be treated like my horse, she is a pampered pet. < /joking > My husband says that he would like to come back as one of my cats or my dog. When he was courting me, my father had a Siamese cat that was his special pet. She had her own chair at the table and ate "people food". My DH (at the time a starving college student trying to cook stuff on an illegal hot plate in his dorm room) came over for dinner and my dad was grilling steaks outside - the cat had her own kitchen stool by the side of the grill, every so often she would reach out her paw and tap my dad on the arm, he would slice a little corner off one of the steaks and feed it to her. My DH watched this for awhile, then said, "Sir, that G.D. cat eats better than I do!"

142 posted on 01/09/2004 9:23:13 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (. . . sed, ut scis, quis homines huiusmodi intellegere potest?. . .)
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To: U S Army EOD
I think one problem with history as traditionally written is that historians for the last 50 years stopped looking to the "boots on the ground" - original source documents such as correspondence and public records - and began thinking in terms of ideology and "trends". The idea of individuals affecting history became passe', and economic and social "forces" supposedly drove history.

I disagree completely with that view. Individuals make history, not some impersonal force be it Marxist imperative or manifest destiny. The best way to figure out what's going on is to study the everyday records of ordinary people. It's like putting together a jigsaw puzzle - the largest and most interesting jigsaw puzzle in the world.

143 posted on 01/09/2004 9:33:13 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (. . . sed, ut scis, quis homines huiusmodi intellegere potest?. . .)
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To: U S Army EOD
Speaking of Lincolnton, my Alabama ggg grandfather was originally from Wilkes County, right next door.

Has your family been there long?

144 posted on 01/09/2004 9:35:06 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (. . . sed, ut scis, quis homines huiusmodi intellegere potest?. . .)
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To: AnAmericanMother
On my mothers side, the Bunch's my grandfather and the Lidsey's my grandmother are all from Wilkes county. My grandmother died about eight years ago at the age of 103 and her father fought in the Civil War but we don't know much about him. The Bunch side is where the Creek Indian blood came from in my family. We have pretty good records on my great, great grandfather Bunch and his family. I think he was in the 40th Georgia who were in a lot of the big battles. I have his mustering out/parol papers. All of them were from Wilkes County.

Lincoln County was devided from Wilkes County and named Lincoln in honor of Benjamin Lincoln. Benjamin Lincoln and Eligah Clarke were involved in a lot of the local fighting in this area during the Revolutionary War. He was also the one who received Cornwallis's sword and the Battle of Yorktown.

What is your ggg grandfather's name, I might be able to tell you a little bit about the remaining family.

My last name is York and that family came from Mountain City or Clayton, Georgia up in the mountains.
145 posted on 01/09/2004 9:44:48 PM PST by U S Army EOD (When the EOD technician screws up, he is always the first to notice.)
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To: dwd1
Here is a good question... If the Southern States had simply stated, "Slavery is abolished!" and accepted the tenets of what later became the 13th and 14th Amendments, would the Civil War have still occurred..

Well I have two questions back in response to your question.

1) The original 13th Amendment slated for ratification and ratified by Illinois (seems there was a certain man that came from that state that had just been elected President too) in 1861 stated

ARTICLE THIRTEEN, No amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give to Congress the power to abolish or interfere, within any State, with the domestic institutions thereof, including that of persons held to labor or service by the laws of said State

If this Amendment would have finished passage would it have staved off war?

2) Would the northern states have rescinded their existing Black Codes that, again, existed before the War? Illinois was known to have one of the most stringent and Oregon even banned the settlement by blacks in their 1859 Constitution?

Considering the northern states didn't even accept the precepts of the latter day 13th and 14th Amendments before the War, why should you expect the Southern states to do so?

146 posted on 01/09/2004 9:48:40 PM PST by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: billbears
I think the war would have still been fought, the two areas were just to different to exist side by side without something happening.

However had the South secceded without a war, the Southern States would have probably been fighting among themselves within ten years or less.

That is just an opinon.
147 posted on 01/09/2004 9:53:13 PM PST by U S Army EOD (When the EOD technician screws up, he is always the first to notice.)
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To: AnAmericanMother
:-)
148 posted on 01/09/2004 10:16:26 PM PST by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: billbears
Good point...
149 posted on 01/09/2004 10:18:12 PM PST by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: dwd1
Good night, good discussion.
150 posted on 01/09/2004 10:21:28 PM PST by U S Army EOD (When the EOD technician screws up, he is always the first to notice.)
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