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Diocese targets Granholm on abortion
The Detroit News ^ | Friday, January 9, 2004 | Kim Kozlowski

Posted on 01/09/2004 10:20:36 PM PST by nickcarraway

Edited on 05/07/2004 7:09:42 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

Detroit Cardinal Adam Maida will challenge the state’s most prominent Catholic politician, Gov. Jennifer Granholm, in a new attempt to ban partial-birth abortion.

Maida will ask Metro Detroit’s 1.5 million Catholics at Masses this month to sign petitions that, if successful, would bypass Granholm’s October veto of the Legal Birth Definition Act.


(Excerpt) Read more at detnews.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Front Page News; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: Michigan
KEYWORDS: abortion; catholic; catholicpoliticians; detroit; granholm; maida; michigan; pba; prolife
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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1 posted on 01/09/2004 10:20:37 PM PST by nickcarraway
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To: Lady In Blue; Canticle_of_Deborah; Desdemona; NYer; Salvation; sandyeggo; american colleen; ...
ping
2 posted on 01/09/2004 10:22:37 PM PST by nickcarraway (www.terrisfight.org)
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To: All
Rank Location Receipts Donors/Avg Freepers/Avg Monthlies
26 Oregon 325.00
10
32.50
218
1.49
85.00
5

Thanks for donating to Free Republic!

Move your locale up the leaderboard!

3 posted on 01/09/2004 10:23:40 PM PST by Support Free Republic (Your support keeps Free Republic going strong!)
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To: nickcarraway
“I am sure the governor clearly understands his position,” said Liz Boyd, spokeswoman for Granholm. “She would hope that he would understand hers as well.”


And her position is, that as a Democrat, there will be hell to pay if she votes against abortion. After all, she can't risk her job.

I am constantly amazed at people who say they are Catholics and yet don't seem to understand or approve of Catholic doctrine at all. There are plenty of faiths that allow abortion, for goodness sake they should go out and find one.

But stop calling themselves Catholic, because they aren't.
4 posted on 01/09/2004 10:26:36 PM PST by I still care
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To: I still care
I'll be the first to admit that I'm not the best Catholic around, but there is no way I'd back abortion.
5 posted on 01/09/2004 10:29:23 PM PST by Dan from Michigan ("And it's worth the sweat, and it's worth the pain, cause the chance may never come again" -)
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To: nickcarraway
Catholics and Politicians -- some other references:

The Deadly Dozen

Canadian Prime Minister Taunts Church: "I Am A Catholic And For Abortion"
Catholic Church asks Tom Daschle to stop calling himself a Catholic
On Catholic Politicians and Faith
Vatican Urges Catholic Politicians to Vote Along Church Lines
Senator Santorum on Being Catholic and a Politician
William E. Simon, Sr. and Jr. Devout Catholics, Philanthropists and Politicians
Deadly Dozen senator taken to task over claims of Catholicism
THE BISHOP AND THE SENATOR [author links to FR thread regarding Daschle in her online column]
Blood On Their Hands: Exposing Pro-abortion Catholic Politicians
MI Gov Granholm Proclaims June "Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Pride Month"
Colorado Governor To Media:'WE LOVE OUR CHURCH' [Gov. Bill Owens
U.S. Senator Brownback and Commentator Dick Morris Join Catholic Church
PRIEST REFUSES COMMUNION TO KNEELING PRO-LIFE POLITICIAN [Richard Black, Virginia]
Kerry [Catholic} says he'll filibuster Supreme Court nominees who do not support abortion rights
Pope to MPs: Stop gay marriage
Vatican - Considerations regarding ... homosexual persons
CONFUSIONS ABOUT POLITICAL JUDGMENT AND THE MORAL LAW
Prelate says politicians who back abortion shouldn't go to Communion
Bishop draws fire for targeting Chrétien
Kennedy likens Vatican stance on gay unions to 'bigotry' (oh, go get a job, you little creep)
Ignorance or Malicious Intent? "No religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to..."
George Weigel on Authentic Catholic Citizenship, and the Duty of Catholic Politicians to Behave as Catholics
Conservative Catholics urge Church to challenge "dissenters"
[Robert F., Jr.] Kennedy to speak at Festival of Faiths (Environmentalism as religion)
Faithful Catholic Politicians
Catholic Bishops Eye Possible Crackdown of Pro-Abortion Pols
PETITION TO EX-COMMUNICATE PRO-ABORTION CATHOLIC ELECTED OFFICIALS
It is Time to Excommunicate the Politicians
Church vows to fight gay marriage: Catholics pressure pols
Should politicians toe their church line?
Church May Penalize Politicans
Catholic politicians facing dogmatic threat
Bishop appeals to Catholic lawmakers [Wisconsin]
New St. Louis Catholic Archbishop Warns Pro-Abortion Catholic Politicians of Excommunication.
Bishop Objected to AIDS Walk
Wisconsin Catholic Lawmakers Seek Victim Status In Feud With Bishop
Bishop Burke discusses the letters he sent to Catholic politicians
Congressman Places Internal Pro-Abortion Docs in Congressional Record
Flynn: Dems ignore Catholics
Granholm gay rights order "a slap in the face"
Calif. Bishop To Gov. Davis: Pick Abortion Or Communion [formal excommunication?]
California Bishop to Gov: Oppose Abortion or No Communion (New Title)
Sacramento Bishop Challenges Governor on Abortion; Tells Davis to Stop Receiving Communion
Granholm's Bible-thumping Sure to Rile GOP
Bishop: No Communion for Abortion Backers
Legislators can't have Eucharist, bishop says: Don't serve supporters of abortion rights, euthanasia
Wisc. Bishop Tells Pro-Abort. Catholic Pols: Change Your Stripes or Stay Away from Holy Communion
Diocese targets Granholm on abortion

6 posted on 01/09/2004 10:32:14 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: nickcarraway
A bump for cardinal Maida!
7 posted on 01/09/2004 10:32:55 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: nickcarraway

Born and Unborn.

8 posted on 01/09/2004 10:33:33 PM PST by Kudsman (LIE= ""We have to exert all of our efforts militarily" Hillary Nov. 2003)
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To: Kudsman; Mama_Bear
Mama,

Sorry I borrowed your pledge from yesterday's finest, but I felt the need to recite it as we do as Knights.

9 posted on 01/09/2004 10:37:35 PM PST by Kudsman (LIE= ""We have to exert all of our efforts militarily" Hillary Nov. 2003)
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To: I still care
I'm against abortion too, but would you say someone's not Catholic if he supports the death penalty? Or supports the war in Iraq? Or opposes welfare? The Catholic church talks about all those things. I'm not a Catholic; I'm just saying I bet you're being selective. I'm against abortion regardless of what Catholics say about it.
10 posted on 01/09/2004 10:39:36 PM PST by Miggsathon
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To: nickcarraway
Thanks for the ping!
11 posted on 01/09/2004 10:39:46 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: nickcarraway
Take the next step. Deny her Communion and threaten excommunication.
12 posted on 01/09/2004 10:42:50 PM PST by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: 2nd amendment mama; A2J; Agitate; Alouette; Annie03; aposiopetic; attagirl; axel f; Balto_Boy; ...
ProLife Ping!

If anyone wants on or off my ProLife Ping List, please notify me here or by freepmail.

13 posted on 01/09/2004 10:45:54 PM PST by Mr. Silverback (Pre-empt the third murder attempt-- Pray for Terry Schiavo!)
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To: nickcarraway
Right to Life of Michigan
14 posted on 01/09/2004 10:48:43 PM PST by nickcarraway (www.terrisfight.org)
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To: Miggsathon
I have to say I feel abortion is in a totally different catagory than something like welfare.

I am not Catholic, but I am a committed Evangelical Christian. I would not say a person is not a Christian if they support abortion, but I would wonder about their understanding of the Bible and God's word.

If that was the lone problem, that would be one thing. Nobody has perfect understanding. But usually people who say they are Christians yet support abortion have a whole host of areas where they have problems with what scripture says. If you question them, it usually comes down to they don't really believe that the bible is completely true, and sometimes they don't even believe Jesus is God.

I have met many pro-choice "Catholics" that when I start questioning them this turns out to be the case. They are just sort of "used" to being Catholic, they are not one out of any personal conviction.

Dean is a classic example. He says he is a Christian, yet with every word that comes out of his mouth he shows his complete ignorance of what Jesus taught.
15 posted on 01/09/2004 11:04:51 PM PST by I still care
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To: I still care
I agree that a lot of pro-choice Catholics are not really faithful -- they just grew up being called Catholic and came to accept that identity. I know other pro-choice Catholics who are very faithful -- raise their kids to be believers, attend church every week, teach Bible study, whatever. I think some evangelicals are being genuine when they accuse others of not being "real Christians" or even, a bit outside their own realm, "real Catholics." But others just have an agenda.

Abortion is NOT in a different category than welfare in one crucial respect: the Catholic church has long expressed support for enlarging the welfare state, just as it has expressed opposition to abortion. The Catholic church is also explicitly opposed to the death penalty and to any wars (like the one in Iraq) that don't meet certain criteria. Most evangelical Christians take the "conservative" position on all those: support for the death penalty, support for pretty much any war the president says we need, and opposition to the welfare state. And that's fine -- all perfectly justifiable positions. Just acknowledge that, by an orthodox definition, no Catholic could stray from the Church on any of those other doctrines, either.

Again, I'm no Catholic, so I don't feel the need to do what the Church says.
16 posted on 01/09/2004 11:23:41 PM PST by Miggsathon
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To: Miggsathon
See, now I have not yet met a pro-choice Catholic that really seems involved with their faith in a personal way. Oh, they may send their kids to Catholic School, and mass, and participate in Bingo night, but I have not met any that, for instance, do regular scripture study with their kids or homeschool.

I have met homeschooling Catholics that hold are prolife. I have never asked them their opinion on the war or the death penalty; I think I will!
17 posted on 01/09/2004 11:52:19 PM PST by I still care
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To: Kudsman
I am flattered that you would want to use it. You are welcome to any of my pledge graphics.
18 posted on 01/10/2004 12:14:18 AM PST by Mama_Bear (Lori)
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To: Miggsathon; I still care
You may be operating under a very faulty impression of Catholic teaching, even if some Catholics gave you this impression. There is no Catholic teaching that says you have to support welfare. For that matter, Catholic teaching does not prohibit the state from instituting the death penalty. The Pope has said that he believes that the death penalty is no longer necessary, given modern situations. But this does not mean a Catholic who is in favor of a just death penalty is against Church teaching. And Catholic teaching on just war is extremely complex. Some Catholics have argued the war in Iraq is not a just war; others have argued that it is. Neither opinion is necessary to be following Church teaching.

Abortion however, has been recognized as wrong, even as far a pre-Christian Judaism. In Christian teaching it was already recognized as an evil by the Didache, written in 70 A.D.

19 posted on 01/10/2004 12:38:35 AM PST by nickcarraway (www.terrisfight.org)
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To: Miggsathon
Abortion is NOT in a different category than welfare in one crucial respect: the Catholic church has long expressed support for enlarging the welfare state, just as it has expressed opposition to abortion. The Catholic church is also explicitly opposed to the death penalty and to any wars (like the one in Iraq) that don't meet certain criteria. Most evangelical Christians take the "conservative" position on all those: support for the death penalty, support for pretty much any war the president says we need, and opposition to the welfare state. And that's fine -- all perfectly justifiable positions. Just acknowledge that, by an orthodox definition, no Catholic could stray from the Church on any of those other doctrines, either.

I strongly disagree with this paragraph.

20 posted on 01/10/2004 12:46:34 AM PST by nickcarraway (www.terrisfight.org)
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To: nickcarraway
as a pro-choice catholic,jennifer granholm believes in the santicity of a minority life,but as a politician she will not foist her beliefs on others....since all white liberals,white democrats,white feminists,ku klux klan,and black leaders want to kill off all the minority babies,she is more than happy to oblige.....she would NEVER,NEVER,NEVER foist her beliefs on them....
21 posted on 01/10/2004 5:22:33 AM PST by fishbabe
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To: nickcarraway
How is that opposing Granholm?

When my Catholic grandfather married my Lutheran grandmother, he was publically excommunicated, his name read out in church in front of his mother and his cousins.

Why don't they do the same to this baby-killer?

And what does it mean that she is a "pro-choice Catholic"?

Isn't that impossible?

22 posted on 01/10/2004 5:26:54 AM PST by Jim Noble
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To: nickcarraway
Thanks for the information.
23 posted on 01/10/2004 7:10:16 AM PST by I still care
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To: Miggsathon
Dear Miggsathon,

It is the consistent teaching of the Holy Catholic Church that, in principle, the state may execute offenders under certain circumstances. Even the current Catechism of the Catholic Church, a document which takes the most extreme position on the death penalty permitted by the consistent teaching of the Church, allows that the death penalty can sometimes be the moral choice.

As to enlarging the welfare state, authoritative Church teaching does not require acceptance of specific political programs or policies. Read the actual teachings of the Catholic Church, and you'll find that the Church sticks to general principles about how the economic ordering of a society ought to occur, without ever endorsing specific systems of ordering, or policies and programs related thereto. In fact, you will find, in reading the actual teachings of the Catholic Church, that the only sorts of systems that are totally condemned are collectivist in nature. The Church has authoritatively taught that socialism, communism, and other thoroughgoing, systematic collectivist systems are inherently evil, and are not legitimate for the ordering of society.

As for war, again, the Church limits herself to explication of principles. Regarding the current efforts in Iraq, Catholics have applied these principles and come up with differing conclusions. So, some Catholics think the war is unjust, according to Catholic principles. Others think that it is just according to the same principles.

But the Church teaches that it is those who hold legitimate authority in civil societies who must make the final judgement as to whether a war is just or unjust. It is a "prudential" decision, and prudential decisions lie with the individuals most competent to make them. On matters of faith and morals, and Church discipline, the individuals to whom these decisions are left are our sacred pastors, our priests, bishops, and most especially, our Holy Father. On matters of war and peace, civil order, economics, etc., the legitimate competent authorities are our political leaders. In a representative democracy, like the United States, the individuals who may legitimately make these prudential decisions are our elected leaders, in conformance with our own constitutional system of government.

Thus, a particular cleric may have an opinion of the justness of the current war, and he may express it. But his opinion isn't dispositive, and the decision for war is not his to make.

On the question of abortion, on the other hand, it is the consistent teaching of the Church that procured abortion is intrinsically evil, and can never be justified. It is the consistent teaching of the Church that it is a grave crime, and that it violates that right of the unborn human being to live. It is the consistent teaching of the Church that a just social order must not permit abortion in law, and that Catholics are always and everywhere obligated to enact just laws which protect the lives of unborn human beings.

For Catholics, the questions which you have tried to blur do, indeed, differ. Considerably.


sitetest
24 posted on 01/10/2004 7:30:39 AM PST by sitetest (If you're not offending SOMEONE, you're probably not telling the whole truth, anyway.)
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To: sitetest; I still care; Dan from Michigan; Salvation; Miggsathon; nickcarraway
To everyone on these subject:
I would argue that God is in favor of the death penalty. He allowed his only son to be executed by men. He also destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah using the death penalty. There are so many scriptures where death is used for punishment. Even when Moses lost his temper he was not allowed into the promised land and died before crossing the Jordan. What has changed in modern times from the past that makes the death penalty not necessary? On welfare. The Biblical philosophy has and always will be "give with thine own heart." This does not mean take. The Bible is very clear that the welfare of the people is the responsibility of the church or "faith-based." The Bible clearly defines life as starting in the womb. "I knew ye in thine mother's womb" Jeremiah 1:5. What is more innocent than a child in the womb? A convicted murderer? A rapist? The Catholic Church itself needs to deal with these subjects in their respective churches, but do not turn into an Episcopalian debating society. And one more side note, the Bible is very clear about its stance on homosexuality. What it shows here in the Canadian governor of Michigan's case is that she lacks conviction on the abortion subject. In other words, elect someone that is actually from Michigan.
25 posted on 01/10/2004 8:33:27 AM PST by sboyd
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To: nickcarraway; american colleen; sinkspur; Lady In Blue; Salvation; Polycarp; narses; ...
“Please ... help preserve the greatest treasure God has given us, the gift of life itself,” Maida said in a letter to be read during Masses in Metro Detroit and 500 churches throughout the state.

Thank you, Cardinal Maida, for acting on your faith!

Catholic Ping - let me know if you want on/off this list


26 posted on 01/10/2004 8:41:10 AM PST by NYer
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To: Jim Noble
"a pro-choice Catholic who personally opposes abortion"

How can you be for something but against it at the same time? I know I'm simplifying the issue, and I've heard this type of claim many times, but it's hogwash. What does it mean to "personally oppose" something? That you wouldn't do it yourself? Then say that. Maybe they're afraid someone might have the cojones to publicly ask why the "personal opposition" if it's an okay thing to do, or "define what you mean by personally oppose". Could they be cornered into saying that they wouldn't "personally" kill their baby but a woman should be ABLE to do so if she wants?
27 posted on 01/10/2004 8:43:32 AM PST by luckymom (Wesley Clark thinks abortion should be legal until birth. Pass it on.)
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To: Miggsathon
I'm against abortion too, but would you say someone's not Catholic if he supports the death penalty? Or supports the war in Iraq? Or opposes welfare? The Catholic church talks about all those things.

For the millionth time: not equivalent.

Abortion & euthanasia: killing an innocent human being. Unquestionably great evil. Fundamental violation of natural moral law.

Death penalty: Church says govt has the right to use the death penalty, but judges life without parole better if society is still safeguarded. Gray area, judgement.

War: wars must meet just war criteria. Leaders directed to use prudential judgement. Obviously if we nuked Canada tomorrow that would be wrong, but most wars fall in gray area.

Welfare: society has a responsibility to take care of the poor. How they do that is left up to judgement. FYI, the Pope has spoken disapprovingly of "welfare state" type programs, which have demonstrably negative consequences.

28 posted on 01/10/2004 9:10:05 AM PST by JohnnyZ (I pity the fool who thinks Bush's proposal is the same as amnesty!)
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To: Jim Noble
Actually, another bishop in another state has told pro-abortion "Catholic" politicians that they will be refused Communion, so progress is being made on this.

But what Maida is trying to do is actually reverse Granholm's veto of a law meant to prevent partial birth abortion. If the Cardinal is successful in this, it will be a real demonstration of pro-life committment (not only the Cardinal's, but that of Catholics in the pews). And it will save some young lives.

Of course, expect the Cardinal to be attacked for "interfering in politics," something that never seems to happen when a Dem candidate takes over a black church to make an election pitch.
29 posted on 01/10/2004 9:18:06 AM PST by livius
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To: I still care
>> but I have not met any that, for instance, do regular scripture study with their kids or homeschool. <<

You just met one. How are you?



30 posted on 01/10/2004 9:19:36 AM PST by netmilsmom (RE: Bad relatives, "Her presence is like pee on a hot rock! " - Conspiracy Guy)
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah
Take the next step. Deny her Communion and threaten excommunication.

Dittoes!

31 posted on 01/10/2004 9:32:15 AM PST by Dajjal
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To: nickcarraway
As a pro-choice Catholic

No such thing.
32 posted on 01/10/2004 9:45:59 AM PST by Delphinium
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To: nickcarraway; BlackElk; drstevej
Looks kinda like the Bishop Burke Flu is catching among the RC Ordinaries.

This is a nice move on Maida's part, without going quite to the position that Burke took. Of course, that's always in the quiver...

If you stop to think about this, the campaign is very well-organized and strategically elegant.

Daschle's Bishop tells Daschle to stop calling himself "Catholic" in campaign lit.

Burke explicitly denies Communion to active pro-abort legislators.

Maida goes with initiative referendum to over-ride a serious threat to human life.

All spaced out in time with PLENTY of time for the actions to 'sink in' ...

Methinks there's more to come, like open 'excommunication' letters.

TORQUEMADA LIVES!!!! LONG LIVE TORQUEMADA!!!!
33 posted on 01/10/2004 9:55:11 AM PST by ninenot (So many cats, so few recipes)
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To: luckymom
What does it mean to "personally oppose" something?

I think to personally oppose something, but publicly favor it, is to reveal an innate contempt for your fellow man. One who would not participate in something they deemed immoral, yet allow others, encourage others, make it as easy as possible for others to commit the deed is the epitome of selfishness. They acknowlege that said act is damaging to their own soul, but don't care enough about their fellow man's soul to publicly act in accordance to their own conscience's dictates. That glaring flaw in an aspiring public servant's personality should prohibit their ever attaining office. Fact is that they care nothing for the public.

34 posted on 01/10/2004 10:19:47 AM PST by St.Chuck
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To: Miggsathon
You are confusing the personal opinions of some heirarchs with Catholic teaching.

You are mistaken about Church teaching (or lack thereof) on a number of issues. Nothing personal, as many, many Catholics are likewise mistaken.

35 posted on 01/10/2004 10:22:12 AM PST by B Knotts (Go 'Nucks!)
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To: Miggsathon
The Catholic Church is against abortion because it has always been against it. Although the prohibition is not in the New Testament, Christian documents as old as the books of the New Testament explicitly treat abortion as a sin. Individual Catholics have allowed early abortion because of the mistaken belief that life began with "the quickening." Some still argue a like point, holding to the dubious doctrine that the fetus does not become a human being until its brain develops sufficiently. But this does not speak to the point that America abortion law is indifferent to the actual development of the fetus and allows the abortion even of late term fetuses. So really, men like Clark and Kerry have no relgious cover at all. They are publicly opposing one of the most ancient moral teachings of the Catholic Church.
36 posted on 01/10/2004 10:25:46 AM PST by RobbyS (XPqu)
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To: RobbyS
Absolutely. I, too, am opposed to abortion. To my knowledge, there isn't a religious doctrine anywhere that promotes "choice" in this regard.

You are wrong, though, about American abortion law being indifferent to the development of the fetus. Roe v. Wade does not guarantee the right to third-trimester abortions. That ruling takes into account the age at which fetuses could live outside the mother's womb. I still think the ruling was a sham, but you are wrong on that.
37 posted on 01/10/2004 11:05:29 AM PST by Miggsathon
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To: Miggsathon
The [rtoblem is not
"Roe"but Doe vs. Bolton, which was decided the same day. "Doe" introduced the famous "health"exception, which was needed to overide the rather liberal(and recent) Georgia law. Abortionist propoganda pretended that Blackmun's famous trimester schools had effect, but as Casey makes clear, American law permits an abortion right up to the moment of birth. Ours is far more permissive than the abortion law of any European state, including Sweden.
38 posted on 01/10/2004 11:12:54 AM PST by RobbyS (XPqu)
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To: JohnnyZ
Specious reasoning.

"Abortion & euthanasia: killing an innocent human being. Unquestionably great evil. Fundamental violation of natural moral law."

By and large I agree. I do think euthaniasia should be allowed if (a) it involves merely taking someone OFF artificial life support, AND (b) the person made crystal clear that he didn't want his life to be prolonged artificially if he fell into a coma or some other state in which he could no longer communicate.

"Death penalty: Church says govt has the right to use the death penalty, but judges life without parole better if society is still safeguarded. Gray area, judgement."

That's about as gray as what the definition of the word "is" is. If one can receive a life sentence without the possibility of parole, then society is almost always safeguarded; therefore, in any system where such a sentence is possible, a true Catholic would never, ever support the death penalty. If one were to do so, he would have to prove that a life sentence was not sufficient to safeguard the rest of society from the criminal. Hardly anyone ever attempts that line of reasoning.

"War: wars must meet just war criteria. Leaders directed to use prudential judgement. Obviously if we nuked Canada tomorrow that would be wrong, but most wars fall in gray area."

The Pope said explicitly that the war in Iraq was wrong. How is that a gray area in any but a Clintonian way?

"Welfare: society has a responsibility to take care of the poor. How they do that is left up to judgement. FYI, the Pope has spoken disapprovingly of "welfare state" type programs, which have demonstrably negative consequences."

Yes, the Pope has cautioned about the excesses of the welfare state, yet the Pope has also envisioned a marketplace "appropriately controlled by the forces of society and the state."

Again, I'm not Catholic. I just don't like Clintonian hypocrisy.
39 posted on 01/10/2004 11:20:00 AM PST by Miggsathon
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To: RobbyS
I didn't know about Doe! That's repugnant.
40 posted on 01/10/2004 11:23:18 AM PST by Miggsathon
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To: Miggsathon
Again, I'm not Catholic. I just don't like Clintonian hypocrisy.

And you don't understand a damn thing about the Catholic faith, obviously. And you have no reading comprehension. Probably the two are related.

Specious reasoning my ass. Perhaps you can explain to the bishops and the Pope how they're all wrong about thinking abortion (especially) and euthanasia are different. Idiot.

41 posted on 01/10/2004 11:38:37 AM PST by JohnnyZ (I pity the fool who thinks Bush's proposal is the same as amnesty!)
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To: ninenot
All spaced out in time with PLENTY of time for the actions to 'sink in' ...

You skipped Archbishop Chaput of Denver basically telling all pro-aborts in the US that they're evil and going to hell and Catholics cannot vote for pro-aborts or they'll go to hell too. Okay, so that's a slight paraphrase . . . but he did make remarks in that direction.

42 posted on 01/10/2004 11:42:52 AM PST by JohnnyZ (I pity the fool who thinks Bush's proposal is the same as amnesty!)
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To: Miggsathon; nickcarraway
Miggsathon Since Jan 10, 2004

Oh BTW, welcome to FR "Jennifer".

43 posted on 01/10/2004 11:45:30 AM PST by JohnnyZ (I pity the fool who thinks Bush's proposal is the same as amnesty!)
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To: ninenot; GirlShortstop
Also Bishop Wiegand in Sacramento ordering former California Governor Gray Davis NOT to receive the Eucharist in the Sacramento Diocese.

And Bishop Doran in Rockford ordering that no pro-abort speakers be allowed to speak on Catholic property in this diocese.

Catholicism is breaking out all over!

44 posted on 01/10/2004 11:59:17 AM PST by BlackElk (The auto-da-fe is God's chosen way to puge sin from the land!)
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To: Miggsathon
I think what you are failing to understand is that there is a difference between the Pope's opinions on matters that are not defined as doctrine, and matters that are defined or have always been accepted in Catholic teaching.

Contrary to the common Protestant misunderstanding of Papal authority, Catholics do not have to follow the private opinions of the Pope or the clergy in general.

The death penalty (because, remember, the Pope's opinion on this runs contrary to centuries of Catholic teaching), distributist economics and a host of other things are in the realm of personal opinions and not doctrine.
45 posted on 01/10/2004 12:19:55 PM PST by livius
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To: netmilsmom
Hello! I meant, pro-choice Catholics who do so. I've met many Catholics who homeschool for religious reasons. In fact, one of the women who first mentored me in homeschooling was a devout Catholic.

46 posted on 01/10/2004 12:30:08 PM PST by I still care
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To: Miggsathon; GirlShortstop; ninenot; Barnacle; Cap'n Crunch; Loyalist; Petronski
If you are not Catholic, why do you care?

Just to help you along, though: The Church's positions on abortion and euthanasia are DOGMATIC. The Church's positions on government welfare, the death penalty, and the war in Iraq are prudential (at best) and NOT DOGMATIC. If that bothers or confuses you, well, it was none of your business in the first place.

As to the welfare state, read Rerum Novarum of Leo XIII (1893) for doctrine. As to the death penalty, the Papal States were perfectly capable of keeping prisoners out of circulation but executed miscreants in any event. At the coronation banquet of Sixtus V, two teen-aged highwaymen who were merely robbers, were hanged from the rafters of the banquet hall and Sixtus V observed that there would be no tolerance of armed criminals in the Papal States as demonstrated by the executions. As to the War in Iraq, the decision to make war is a judgment left by the Church to secular leaders who must, necessarily, know more than Church leaders as to why the decision is made. Wars must be conducted according to recognized objective rules and morally. Renato Cardinal Martino is not the pope and likely never will be. The pope is the monarch of a sovereign nation and, more importantly by far, the leader of the Catholic Church militant on earth but even his authority has limits well-recognized in the Church itself, which is the only recognition that counts.

The pope is not subservient to the State Department or to Adam Smith or to critics of Catholicism. If that bothers you or confuses you, again, it is none of your business since you are not Catholic.

I am a Catholic with a general but not slavish preference for many capitalist ideas and I am very enthusiastically favorable to this war and I favor the death penalty in most instances where it is applied and I am still a faithful Catholic in communion with the Holy See. Other Catholics take other positions on these non-doctrinal matters. Some of us like steak and some are vegans (not me!). If that confuses you, we do not have an obligation to satisfy whatever standards you may wish to apply to our Church which is not your own. We also pride ourselves on avoiding the Scylla and Charybdis of anarchy in the pews or democracy in the pews. Whatever your church may be (if any), we will generally refrain from advising it as to how to conduct its affairs.

47 posted on 01/10/2004 12:35:40 PM PST by BlackElk (The auto-da-fe is God's chosen way to purge sin from the land!)
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To: I still care
Oooops!
Pro-Life here!
48 posted on 01/10/2004 12:57:08 PM PST by netmilsmom (RE: Bad relatives, "Her presence is like pee on a hot rock! " - Conspiracy Guy)
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To: St.Chuck
BINGO! You said it much better than I ever could have done. Thank you!
49 posted on 01/10/2004 2:01:13 PM PST by luckymom (Wesley Clark thinks abortion should be legal until birth. Pass it on.)
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To: BlackElk
It appears as though Muggsywomp, (whatever, Know-Nothing) is a re-run of a banned ex-FreePer and self-appointed bedbug on Catholic threads.

But your post is fun to read, as always.
50 posted on 01/10/2004 3:42:42 PM PST by ninenot (So many cats, so few recipes)
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