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To: JohnnyZ
Specious reasoning.

"Abortion & euthanasia: killing an innocent human being. Unquestionably great evil. Fundamental violation of natural moral law."

By and large I agree. I do think euthaniasia should be allowed if (a) it involves merely taking someone OFF artificial life support, AND (b) the person made crystal clear that he didn't want his life to be prolonged artificially if he fell into a coma or some other state in which he could no longer communicate.

"Death penalty: Church says govt has the right to use the death penalty, but judges life without parole better if society is still safeguarded. Gray area, judgement."

That's about as gray as what the definition of the word "is" is. If one can receive a life sentence without the possibility of parole, then society is almost always safeguarded; therefore, in any system where such a sentence is possible, a true Catholic would never, ever support the death penalty. If one were to do so, he would have to prove that a life sentence was not sufficient to safeguard the rest of society from the criminal. Hardly anyone ever attempts that line of reasoning.

"War: wars must meet just war criteria. Leaders directed to use prudential judgement. Obviously if we nuked Canada tomorrow that would be wrong, but most wars fall in gray area."

The Pope said explicitly that the war in Iraq was wrong. How is that a gray area in any but a Clintonian way?

"Welfare: society has a responsibility to take care of the poor. How they do that is left up to judgement. FYI, the Pope has spoken disapprovingly of "welfare state" type programs, which have demonstrably negative consequences."

Yes, the Pope has cautioned about the excesses of the welfare state, yet the Pope has also envisioned a marketplace "appropriately controlled by the forces of society and the state."

Again, I'm not Catholic. I just don't like Clintonian hypocrisy.
39 posted on 01/10/2004 11:20:00 AM PST by Miggsathon
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To: Miggsathon
Again, I'm not Catholic. I just don't like Clintonian hypocrisy.

And you don't understand a damn thing about the Catholic faith, obviously. And you have no reading comprehension. Probably the two are related.

Specious reasoning my ass. Perhaps you can explain to the bishops and the Pope how they're all wrong about thinking abortion (especially) and euthanasia are different. Idiot.

41 posted on 01/10/2004 11:38:37 AM PST by JohnnyZ (I pity the fool who thinks Bush's proposal is the same as amnesty!)
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To: Miggsathon
I think what you are failing to understand is that there is a difference between the Pope's opinions on matters that are not defined as doctrine, and matters that are defined or have always been accepted in Catholic teaching.

Contrary to the common Protestant misunderstanding of Papal authority, Catholics do not have to follow the private opinions of the Pope or the clergy in general.

The death penalty (because, remember, the Pope's opinion on this runs contrary to centuries of Catholic teaching), distributist economics and a host of other things are in the realm of personal opinions and not doctrine.
45 posted on 01/10/2004 12:19:55 PM PST by livius
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To: Miggsathon; GirlShortstop; ninenot; Barnacle; Cap'n Crunch; Loyalist; Petronski
If you are not Catholic, why do you care?

Just to help you along, though: The Church's positions on abortion and euthanasia are DOGMATIC. The Church's positions on government welfare, the death penalty, and the war in Iraq are prudential (at best) and NOT DOGMATIC. If that bothers or confuses you, well, it was none of your business in the first place.

As to the welfare state, read Rerum Novarum of Leo XIII (1893) for doctrine. As to the death penalty, the Papal States were perfectly capable of keeping prisoners out of circulation but executed miscreants in any event. At the coronation banquet of Sixtus V, two teen-aged highwaymen who were merely robbers, were hanged from the rafters of the banquet hall and Sixtus V observed that there would be no tolerance of armed criminals in the Papal States as demonstrated by the executions. As to the War in Iraq, the decision to make war is a judgment left by the Church to secular leaders who must, necessarily, know more than Church leaders as to why the decision is made. Wars must be conducted according to recognized objective rules and morally. Renato Cardinal Martino is not the pope and likely never will be. The pope is the monarch of a sovereign nation and, more importantly by far, the leader of the Catholic Church militant on earth but even his authority has limits well-recognized in the Church itself, which is the only recognition that counts.

The pope is not subservient to the State Department or to Adam Smith or to critics of Catholicism. If that bothers you or confuses you, again, it is none of your business since you are not Catholic.

I am a Catholic with a general but not slavish preference for many capitalist ideas and I am very enthusiastically favorable to this war and I favor the death penalty in most instances where it is applied and I am still a faithful Catholic in communion with the Holy See. Other Catholics take other positions on these non-doctrinal matters. Some of us like steak and some are vegans (not me!). If that confuses you, we do not have an obligation to satisfy whatever standards you may wish to apply to our Church which is not your own. We also pride ourselves on avoiding the Scylla and Charybdis of anarchy in the pews or democracy in the pews. Whatever your church may be (if any), we will generally refrain from advising it as to how to conduct its affairs.

47 posted on 01/10/2004 12:35:40 PM PST by BlackElk (The auto-da-fe is God's chosen way to purge sin from the land!)
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