Bishop's ban ignites church-state debate

Cleveland Plain Dealer / AP ^ | 01/11/04 | Juliet Williams

[Valin]

Milwaukee- A Roman Catholic bishop who waded into politics with a decree that lawmakers who support abortion rights can no longer receive Holy Communion has ignited a debate over the separation of church and state.

Bishop Raymond Burke of La Crosse cited Vatican doctrine, canon law and teachings by the U.S. bishops in an announcement telling diocesan priests to withhold Communion from such lawmakers until they "publicly renounce" their support of abortion rights.

"This is about as stark a decree to come down against Catholic politicians as we've seen in recent history," said Barry Lynn, executive director of the Washington, D.C.-based Americans United for the Separation of Church and State.

"The problem with it is that elected officials have to represent people of all faiths and none and not adhere to one religious demand like the bishop's," he said.

The Vatican and U.S. bishops have for years urged Catholic legislators to consider their faith when they vote, and a task force of bishops is weighing whether to recommend sanctions for Catholic politicians who support policies contrary to church teachings.

In November, Burke wrote to at least three Catholic lawmakers, saying they risked being forbidden from taking the sacrament by continuing to vote for measures he termed anti-life, including abortion and euthanasia.

Democratic U.S. Rep. David Obey, who received a letter from Burke, said Friday that he respects the oath he took to uphold the U.S. Constitution.

Obey said Burke can instruct him on faith and morals in his private life but should use "persuasion, not dictation" to affect his political votes. He said Burke had "crossed the line into unacceptable territory."

State Senate Minority Leader Jon Erpenbach, a Democrat who was raised Catholic but is no longer practicing, expressed a similar view.

"Dictating public policy for people of all faiths by holding sacraments hostage from those who believe does not sound right," Erpenbach said.

Burke has also been criticized by some Catholic scholars.

Dan Maguire, a professor of theology at the Jesuit Marquette University in Milwaukee, called Burke a "fanatic" who has embarrassed the Catholic Church by using bullying tactics.

© 2004 The Plain Dealer

[Cicero]

Yes, indeed. Voting in favor of abortion isn't quite the same thing as actually committing or procuring an abortion.

But you can draw an analogy to murder. You don't actually have to pull the trigger to be complicit in murder. If, for instance, you give money to a professional to murder someone, you are legally and morally responsible for the murder. Similarly, if you vote to provide tax money for abortions, you are effectively responsible for the abortions committed with that funding.

There may be some cases, for instance where a politician voted for limited abortion to avoid an even worse law being passed, where there might be some excuse. But even there, proportionality is not widely accepted as a valid moral argument among traditional theologians. Probably it would be legitimate to vote for a bill that made abortion in the third trimester legitimate, but it would be illegitimate to vote for a bill that proclaimed that abortion in the first two trimesters should be legal.

In most cases, the moral lines are pretty clear, however.

[Godebert]

"This is not a Church-state issue. Actually abortion shouldn't even be a "state" issue. It is a moral issue & thus belongs to the church. "

Baloney. Our entire legal system is based on morality.

[Arthur McGowan]

For anyone to call this a church-state or a separation-of-church-state issue represents that absolute nadir of human thought.

Even granting the most expansive conceivable interpretation of the meaning of the First Amendment, the fact remains that the First Amendment tells THE GOVERNMENT what it cannot do. The Bishop of Milwaukee can tell Catholics ANYTHING he wants. In this case, he is telling them the truth: You can't kill babies and be a real Catholic.

[Arthur McGowan]

I meant LaCrosse, not Milwaukee.

The reporter failed to note that ex-priest Maquire is a pro-abortion fanatic, author of numerous vile, demonic articles and pamphlets put out by Catholics for a Free Choice.

[Arthur McGowan]

"The problem with it is that elected officials have to represent people of all faiths and none and not adhere to one religious demand like the bishop's," he said.

Translation: It is a condition of holding public office in America that one be willing to kill babies.

Guess what: Catholics don't have to be politicians or hold any public office. If it ever becomes a fact that the only way to hold public office is to participate in killing babies, then Catholics have to choose one or the other. All the bishop is telling Catholics is: You can't kill babies and be a real Catholic.

[Last Dakotan]

...it appears Archbishop Dolan doesn't have the gonads to do anything about this..

The Jesuits as a religious order report directly to the Pope. The local Bishop actually has little to say. Maguire is allowed to speak for himself as he pleases for only one reason - he has tenure.

[Arthur McGowan]

"because the Church would have such control..."

Control over WHAT??? It's MEMBERS???

It is objectionable that the Catholic Church tell its MEMBERS what their moral duties are?

If we followed your principle, the First Amendment means: Churches are forbidden to teach their members anything.

How does shutting down a Church increase the freedom of the American People? Oh, yeah--the freedom to kill babies REQUIRES abolishing all OTHER freedoms, like freedom of speech and freedom of religion.

[Frank_2001]

It certainly sounds ominous to me, as if they would love to be able to regulate the moral teachings of the Church, which is quite explicit on the issue of excommunication for having or facilitating abortion.

[Valin]

Blackmail? Well I suppose so, but then I guess you'd say no church(in the broadest sense of the word) can't tell anyone what they should/need to believe to be a member.

[Salvation]

Bishop Burke and the church rules govern the reception of Communion. Not the politicians! No problem here, sorry!

[Salvation]

**And since when is murder a religious issue?**

Good question!

Ten Commandments?

[Salvation]

You can't speak about all Jesuits like that!!

Didn't your mother ever teach you not to speak in such generalities??

Or do you have a source that shows that ALL Jesuits, in fact, no longer practice the Catholic faith?

[Salvation]

**The Catholic church has the DUTY (per Paul's epistles) to tell their congregations how to behave as Catholic Christians.**

And this is the one reason that so many hate the Catholic Church.......the one Church that has stood steady and firm throughout history.

(Yes, I know there have been some mistakes, but all in all, the Catholic Church is the mainstay of morals.)

[Mad Dawg]

The Catholic Church teaches that abortion is a grave sin (= very wrong). It also teaches that someone who does something very wrong (= grave sin) will be harmed by abusing the sacrament of Communion. With those two teachings in place, if it admits to communion someone who advocates abortion, it harms that person.

Further, if it admits such a person, it weakens its teaching by seeming to say "we didn't really mean it." So it harms other people who need to see that it means what it says.

I know people, clergyfolk, who have left particular denominations over matters of conscience, sometimes incurring financial loss and the enmity of family and friends. It wasn't easy for them, but they did it.

They didn't think the church they left was wrong for sticking to its guns generally. They thought it picked the wrong guns to stick to.

But your argument seems to come down to, "If the church is consistent and sticks to its guns, that's blackmail." Is it blackmail for the Church to have an opinion about right and wrong, or to act on its opinion, or what? If the Church excommunicated someone who advocated slavery or persecuting Jews, would that be blackmail?

A group assembling, as the constitution says it has a right to do, says that they have certain requirements for members of that group. That's not blackmail.

If I marry THIS woman and am faithful to her, I am not thereby blackmailing all hordes of women clamoring to share my bed. If I buy a GM truck, I am not blackmailing Ford. If I start or join a golf club, I am not blackmailing bridge players. If I think abortion is very wrong, I am not blackmailing abortionists any more than they are blackmailing me when they do their filthy work. It is not blackmail when I reach a moral conclusion and act on it -- seems to me.

If my parents and siblings and wife and child turned out to be in favor of persecuting Jews, it would be hard for me to renounce them, but I would not be a victim of blackmail, except in a figurative and imprecise sense. If the politician's support for abortion costs him the approval of his denomination, then if he is a man of principle, he should leave the denomination. Yes it may be hard. But what good are principles if they are renounced when they prove difficult to uphold?

What am I missing in your point of view?

[Salvation]

And maybe Kennedy will be defeated sooner than later.

[Salvation]

**The real battle in America in the 21st century is between secular humanists and Christians.**

Bingo!

[Valin]

From what little I've read there appears to be a REAL problem in the Society of Jesus.

[xkaydet65]

It is hardly blackmail. If I were to divorce and take up publicly with another woman, the Church would , must, refuse me the Sacraments unless or until I change my direction. That is hardly blackmailing me.

The only problem facing the Bishop of Milwaukee is that the other bishops of the American church are not doing the same thing.

BTW are you aware that in 1963 Louisiana Democratic leader Leander Perez was excommunciated by the Archbishop of New Orleans for publicly decrying the diocese's decision to integrate its schools. That action was widely praised by the Liberal elites in the U.S., and there was no ex cathedra teaching to compel the bishop to integrate the schools. It was a matter of the bishop's own sense of justice. Here the Bishop of Milwaukee has the guidance of two Popes, Paul VI amd John PaulII, speaking ex cathedra to guide his direction. Blackmail indeed. Disagree with the Church's view on abortion, but don't publicly facilitate the practice of abortion and expect to remain a Catholic in the eyes of the Church.

[Salvation]

Here are some other references on some other Catholics and politicians:
(BTW, there are some good Catholics in here, too!)

The Deadly Dozen

Canadian Prime Minister Taunts Church: "I Am A Catholic And For Abortion"
Catholic Church asks Tom Daschle to stop calling himself a Catholic
On Catholic Politicians and Faith
Vatican Urges Catholic Politicians to Vote Along Church Lines
Senator Santorum on Being Catholic and a Politician
William E. Simon, Sr. and Jr. Devout Catholics, Philanthropists and Politicians
Deadly Dozen senator taken to task over claims of Catholicism
THE BISHOP AND THE SENATOR [author links to FR thread regarding Daschle in her online column]
Blood On Their Hands: Exposing Pro-abortion Catholic Politicians
MI Gov Granholm Proclaims June "Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Pride Month"
Colorado Governor To Media:'WE LOVE OUR CHURCH' [Gov. Bill Owens
U.S. Senator Brownback and Commentator Dick Morris Join Catholic Church
PRIEST REFUSES COMMUNION TO KNEELING PRO-LIFE POLITICIAN [Richard Black, Virginia]
Kerry [Catholic} says he'll filibuster Supreme Court nominees who do not support abortion rights
Pope to MPs: Stop gay marriage
Vatican - Considerations regarding ... homosexual persons
CONFUSIONS ABOUT POLITICAL JUDGMENT AND THE MORAL LAW
Prelate says politicians who back abortion shouldn't go to Communion
Bishop draws fire for targeting Chrétien
Kennedy likens Vatican stance on gay unions to 'bigotry' (oh, go get a job, you little creep)
Ignorance or Malicious Intent? "No religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to..."
George Weigel on Authentic Catholic Citizenship, and the Duty of Catholic Politicians to Behave as Catholics
Conservative Catholics urge Church to challenge "dissenters"
[Robert F., Jr.] Kennedy to speak at Festival of Faiths (Environmentalism as religion)
Faithful Catholic Politicians
Catholic Bishops Eye Possible Crackdown of Pro-Abortion Pols
PETITION TO EX-COMMUNICATE PRO-ABORTION CATHOLIC ELECTED OFFICIALS
It is Time to Excommunicate the Politicians
Church vows to fight gay marriage: Catholics pressure pols
Should politicians toe their church line?
Church May Penalize Politicans
Catholic politicians facing dogmatic threat
Bishop appeals to Catholic lawmakers [Wisconsin]
New St. Louis Catholic Archbishop Warns Pro-Abortion Catholic Politicians of Excommunication.
Bishop Objected to AIDS Walk
Wisconsin Catholic Lawmakers Seek Victim Status In Feud With Bishop
Bishop Burke discusses the letters he sent to Catholic politicians
Congressman Places Internal Pro-Abortion Docs in Congressional Record
Flynn: Dems ignore Catholics
Granholm gay rights order "a slap in the face"
Calif. Bishop To Gov. Davis: Pick Abortion Or Communion [formal excommunication?]
California Bishop to Gov: Oppose Abortion or No Communion (New Title)
Sacramento Bishop Challenges Governor on Abortion; Tells Davis to Stop Receiving Communion
Granholm's Bible-thumping Sure to Rile GOP
Bishop: No Communion for Abortion Backers
Legislators can't have Eucharist, bishop says: Don't serve supporters of abortion rights, euthanasia
Wisc. Bishop Tells Pro-Abort. Catholic Pols: Change Your Stripes or Stay Away from Holy Communion
Diocese targets Granholm on abortion
NJ Governor McGreevey a devout Catholic, yet diplomatic {Barf Alert}
Communion ban on lawmakers who back abortion starts furor

[Salvation]

I will agree there are problems here and there, but as a whole, there are some good priests there.

Just like we can't lump all Benedictines....

All Holy Cross priests......

All Franciscans......

Neither can we say

All Jesuits......

That is my point.