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Bishop's ban ignites church-state debate
Cleveland Plain Dealer / AP ^ | 01/11/04 | Juliet Williams

Posted on 01/11/2004 6:15:18 PM PST by Valin

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To: MegaSilver
**And since when is murder a religious issue?**

Good question!

Ten Commandments?
51 posted on 01/11/2004 8:30:43 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: paguch
You can't speak about all Jesuits like that!!

Didn't your mother ever teach you not to speak in such generalities??

Or do you have a source that shows that ALL Jesuits, in fact, no longer practice the Catholic faith?
52 posted on 01/11/2004 8:32:29 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: madison10
**The Catholic church has the DUTY (per Paul's epistles) to tell their congregations how to behave as Catholic Christians.**

And this is the one reason that so many hate the Catholic Church.......the one Church that has stood steady and firm throughout history.

(Yes, I know there have been some mistakes, but all in all, the Catholic Church is the mainstay of morals.)
53 posted on 01/11/2004 8:34:30 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: BikerNYC
The Catholic Church teaches that abortion is a grave sin (= very wrong). It also teaches that someone who does something very wrong (= grave sin) will be harmed by abusing the sacrament of Communion. With those two teachings in place, if it admits to communion someone who advocates abortion, it harms that person.

Further, if it admits such a person, it weakens its teaching by seeming to say "we didn't really mean it." So it harms other people who need to see that it means what it says.

I know people, clergyfolk, who have left particular denominations over matters of conscience, sometimes incurring financial loss and the enmity of family and friends. It wasn't easy for them, but they did it.

They didn't think the church they left was wrong for sticking to its guns generally. They thought it picked the wrong guns to stick to.

But your argument seems to come down to, "If the church is consistent and sticks to its guns, that's blackmail." Is it blackmail for the Church to have an opinion about right and wrong, or to act on its opinion, or what? If the Church excommunicated someone who advocated slavery or persecuting Jews, would that be blackmail?

A group assembling, as the constitution says it has a right to do, says that they have certain requirements for members of that group. That's not blackmail.

If I marry THIS woman and am faithful to her, I am not thereby blackmailing all hordes of women clamoring to share my bed. If I buy a GM truck, I am not blackmailing Ford. If I start or join a golf club, I am not blackmailing bridge players. If I think abortion is very wrong, I am not blackmailing abortionists any more than they are blackmailing me when they do their filthy work. It is not blackmail when I reach a moral conclusion and act on it -- seems to me.

If my parents and siblings and wife and child turned out to be in favor of persecuting Jews, it would be hard for me to renounce them, but I would not be a victim of blackmail, except in a figurative and imprecise sense. If the politician's support for abortion costs him the approval of his denomination, then if he is a man of principle, he should leave the denomination. Yes it may be hard. But what good are principles if they are renounced when they prove difficult to uphold?

What am I missing in your point of view?

54 posted on 01/11/2004 8:34:36 PM PST by Mad Dawg (S&W 686P, Cougar 8357, Sigs - P226, P239.)
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To: BikerNYC
And maybe Kennedy will be defeated sooner than later.
55 posted on 01/11/2004 8:35:32 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Zack Nguyen
**The real battle in America in the 21st century is between secular humanists and Christians.**

Bingo!
56 posted on 01/11/2004 8:36:36 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation
From what little I've read there appears to be a REAL problem in the Society of Jesus.
57 posted on 01/11/2004 8:39:46 PM PST by Valin (We make a living by what we get, we make a life by what we give.)
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To: BikerNYC
It is hardly blackmail. If I were to divorce and take up publicly with another woman, the Church would , must, refuse me the Sacraments unless or until I change my direction. That is hardly blackmailing me.

The only problem facing the Bishop of Milwaukee is that the other bishops of the American church are not doing the same thing.

BTW are you aware that in 1963 Louisiana Democratic leader Leander Perez was excommunciated by the Archbishop of New Orleans for publicly decrying the diocese's decision to integrate its schools. That action was widely praised by the Liberal elites in the U.S., and there was no ex cathedra teaching to compel the bishop to integrate the schools. It was a matter of the bishop's own sense of justice. Here the Bishop of Milwaukee has the guidance of two Popes, Paul VI amd John PaulII, speaking ex cathedra to guide his direction. Blackmail indeed. Disagree with the Church's view on abortion, but don't publicly facilitate the practice of abortion and expect to remain a Catholic in the eyes of the Church.

58 posted on 01/11/2004 8:42:04 PM PST by xkaydet65
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To: Valin
Here are some other references on some other Catholics and politicians:
(BTW, there are some good Catholics in here, too!)

The Deadly Dozen

Canadian Prime Minister Taunts Church: "I Am A Catholic And For Abortion"
Catholic Church asks Tom Daschle to stop calling himself a Catholic
On Catholic Politicians and Faith
Vatican Urges Catholic Politicians to Vote Along Church Lines
Senator Santorum on Being Catholic and a Politician
William E. Simon, Sr. and Jr. Devout Catholics, Philanthropists and Politicians
Deadly Dozen senator taken to task over claims of Catholicism
THE BISHOP AND THE SENATOR [author links to FR thread regarding Daschle in her online column]
Blood On Their Hands: Exposing Pro-abortion Catholic Politicians
MI Gov Granholm Proclaims June "Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Pride Month"
Colorado Governor To Media:'WE LOVE OUR CHURCH' [Gov. Bill Owens
U.S. Senator Brownback and Commentator Dick Morris Join Catholic Church
PRIEST REFUSES COMMUNION TO KNEELING PRO-LIFE POLITICIAN [Richard Black, Virginia]
Kerry [Catholic} says he'll filibuster Supreme Court nominees who do not support abortion rights
Pope to MPs: Stop gay marriage
Vatican - Considerations regarding ... homosexual persons
CONFUSIONS ABOUT POLITICAL JUDGMENT AND THE MORAL LAW
Prelate says politicians who back abortion shouldn't go to Communion
Bishop draws fire for targeting Chrétien
Kennedy likens Vatican stance on gay unions to 'bigotry' (oh, go get a job, you little creep)
Ignorance or Malicious Intent? "No religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to..."
George Weigel on Authentic Catholic Citizenship, and the Duty of Catholic Politicians to Behave as Catholics
Conservative Catholics urge Church to challenge "dissenters"
[Robert F., Jr.] Kennedy to speak at Festival of Faiths (Environmentalism as religion)
Faithful Catholic Politicians
Catholic Bishops Eye Possible Crackdown of Pro-Abortion Pols
PETITION TO EX-COMMUNICATE PRO-ABORTION CATHOLIC ELECTED OFFICIALS
It is Time to Excommunicate the Politicians
Church vows to fight gay marriage: Catholics pressure pols
Should politicians toe their church line?
Church May Penalize Politicans
Catholic politicians facing dogmatic threat
Bishop appeals to Catholic lawmakers [Wisconsin]
New St. Louis Catholic Archbishop Warns Pro-Abortion Catholic Politicians of Excommunication.
Bishop Objected to AIDS Walk
Wisconsin Catholic Lawmakers Seek Victim Status In Feud With Bishop
Bishop Burke discusses the letters he sent to Catholic politicians
Congressman Places Internal Pro-Abortion Docs in Congressional Record
Flynn: Dems ignore Catholics
Granholm gay rights order "a slap in the face"
Calif. Bishop To Gov. Davis: Pick Abortion Or Communion [formal excommunication?]
California Bishop to Gov: Oppose Abortion or No Communion (New Title)
Sacramento Bishop Challenges Governor on Abortion; Tells Davis to Stop Receiving Communion
Granholm's Bible-thumping Sure to Rile GOP
Bishop: No Communion for Abortion Backers
Legislators can't have Eucharist, bishop says: Don't serve supporters of abortion rights, euthanasia
Wisc. Bishop Tells Pro-Abort. Catholic Pols: Change Your Stripes or Stay Away from Holy Communion
Diocese targets Granholm on abortion
NJ Governor McGreevey a devout Catholic, yet diplomatic {Barf Alert}
Communion ban on lawmakers who back abortion starts furor

59 posted on 01/11/2004 8:42:21 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Valin
I will agree there are problems here and there, but as a whole, there are some good priests there.

Just like we can't lump all Benedictines....

All Holy Cross priests......

All Franciscans......

Neither can we say

All Jesuits......

That is my point.
60 posted on 01/11/2004 8:48:08 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation
And a fine point it is! :-)

Thanks for the links.


And yes I know there are many good Catholic, a number of them taught me, weather I wanted to learn or not.

"You WILL learn!"
Sister Margaret
(my 5th grade teacher)
61 posted on 01/11/2004 9:22:55 PM PST by Valin (We make a living by what we get, we make a life by what we give.)
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To: Salvation
**And since when is murder a religious issue?**

Good question!

Ten Commandments?

Okay, really bad choice of words on my part. I hope you'll bear with me; I've been on vacation for several weeks and my brain has been effectively rendered "off."

What I SHOULD have said was, "Since when does outlawing murder require a reference to religion?"

62 posted on 01/11/2004 11:23:13 PM PST by MegaSilver
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To: Salvation
**The Catholic church has the DUTY (per Paul's epistles) to tell their congregations how to behave as Catholic Christians.**

And this is the one reason that so many hate the Catholic Church.......the one Church that has stood steady and firm throughout history.

(Yes, I know there have been some mistakes, but all in all, the Catholic Church is the mainstay of morals.)

Well, I'm not exactly Catholic (but I'm not exactly Protestant either... Christian, yes; not sure about denomination), but I certainly don't hate Catholicism. My grandparents, as well as my mother's sister and her family, are all Catholic, and from what I can see, they appear to love God more than anything else and genuinely desire to be like Christ (and I can say the same thing about the Pope), and that's what's important.

For me, the problem isn't Catholics so much as the way the Church seems to have allowed itself to kind of... melt since Vatican II. Some would argue (and I would agree) they made necessary reforms at that council, but from that point on, I've encountered a LOT of cases where the Church doesn't stress the importance of CONTINUALLY living for God; not just remembering him once a week at the Eucharist or while doing sacraments. Now, this certainly doesn't describe ALL of the Churches or congregations; in fact, I attend the Catholic Church on my college campus, and I have met many people there who are genuinely devoted to God. And it happens in a number of Protestant churches as well.

But--and this is just my opinion; someone may have had a different experience than me--on the whole, I see a far bigger problem of "nominal Christianity" in the Catholic Church than I do in most Protestant churches. It seems (to me) that too many people practice a form of Catholicism which is devoid of actual Christian substance, and it appears to me that the clergy isn't always doing all that it should to rectify this.

Hoo... I'm done ranting. Again, it's nothing against Catholics; I know many Catholics who genuinely follow the example of Christ. Just a concern I have for the Church. I do worry about it sometimes... guess I'd be better off praying, huh?

63 posted on 01/11/2004 11:37:15 PM PST by MegaSilver
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To: Zack Nguyen
Zack I like your tac-- YOu are welcome in my home anyday brother.Stay prayed up,and stand.
64 posted on 01/12/2004 6:27:17 AM PST by StonyBurk
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To: BikerNYC
It's called church discipline. A factor of church life
that has been seldom seen in the sunday Mornin social club
of the modern church -- a factor of church life common in
early America--as rare as being washed in the blood of
Christ is to the modern American rice Christian
65 posted on 01/12/2004 6:32:15 AM PST by StonyBurk
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To: StonyBurk
Well thank you!
66 posted on 01/12/2004 8:24:17 AM PST by Zack Nguyen
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To: Ronzo
`
67 posted on 02/21/2004 10:20:17 PM PST by Coleus (Help Tyler Schicke http://tylerfund.org/ Burkitt's leukemia)
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