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How to Lose Your Yob in Talk Radio (FR mentioned)
The American Conservative Magazine ^ | Jan 12, 2004 | Charles Goyette

Posted on 01/12/2004 9:49:33 AM PST by narby

“Imagine these startling headlines with the nation at war in the Pacific six months after Dec. 7, 1941: “No Signs of Japanese Involvement in Pearl Harbor Attack! Faulty Intelligence Cited; Wolfowitz: Mistakes Were Made.”

Or how about an equally disconcerting World War II headline from the European theater: “German Army Not Found in France, Poland, Admits President; Rumsfeld: ‘Oops!’, Powell Silent; ‘Bring ’Em On,’ Says Defiant FDR.”

It seems to me that when there is reason to go to war, it should be self-evident. The Secretary of State should not need to convince a skeptical world with satellite photos of a couple of Toyota pickups and a dumpster. And faced with a legitimate casus belli, it should not be hard to muster an actual constitutional declaration of war. Now in the absence of a meaningful Iraqi role in the 9/11 attack and the mysterious disappearance of those fearsome Weapons of Mass Destruction, there might be some psychic satisfaction to be had in saying, “I told you so!” But it sure isn’t doing my career as a talk-show host any good.

The criterion of self-evidence was only one of dozens of objections I raised before the elective war in Iraq on my afternoon drive-time talk show on KFYI in Phoenix. Many of the other arguments are familiar to readers of The American Conservative.

But the case for war was a shape-shifter, skillfully morphing into a new rationale as quickly as the old one failed to withstand scrutiny. For a year before the war, I scrambled to keep up with the latest incarnations of the neocon case. Most were pitifully transparent and readily exposed. (Besides the aluminum tubes and the trailers that had Bush saying, “Gotcha,” does anyone remember those death-dealing drones? Never have third-world, wind-up, rubber-band, balsa-wood airplanes instilled so much fear in so many people.) Still, my management didn’t like my being out of step with the president’s parade of national hysteria, and the war-fevered spectators didn’t care to be told they were suffering illusions. So after three years, I was replaced on my primetime talk show by the Frick and Frack of Bushophiles, two giggling guys who think everything our tongue-tied president does is “Most excellent, dude!” I have been relegated to the later 7–10 p.m. slot, when most people, even in a congested commuting market like Phoenix, are already home watching TV.

Why did this happen? Why only a couple of months after my company picked up the option on my contract for another year in the fifth-largest city in the United States, did it suddenly decide to relegate me to radio Outer Darkness? The answer lies hidden in the oil-and-water incompatibility of these two seemingly disconnected phrases: “Criticizing Bush” and “Clear Channel.”

Criticizing Bush? Well then, must I be some sort of rug-chewing liberal? Not even close. As a boy, I stood on the grass in a small Arizona town square when Barry Goldwater officially began his 1964 presidential run. And I was there for the last official event of the Goldwater campaign. My job was to recruit and manage my fellow junior-high and high-school conservatives in a phone bank operation, calling supporters to fill up as many buses as possible to help pack the stadium—a show of strength for the nation’s television viewers. Of course that’s an insignificant role to play in a presidential campaign, but it was pretty heady stuff for a 14-year-old kid from Flagstaff.

I broke with Goldwater in 1976 over his decision to back Gerald Ford instead of Ronald Reagan for the Republican presidential nomination. Ford was a perfectly decent, if ordinary, Republican (who could have taught the big-spending W. Bush a thing or two about the use of the veto!). But I took my conservatism seriously. Reagan was clearly the champion of the conservative cause.

Perhaps I’m just anti-military? No. I am proud of my honorable service and of the Army Commendation Medal I was awarded. I also spent a good deal of time in the 1980s as a member of the Speakers Bureau of High Frontier, promoting Reagan’s Strategic Defense Initiative, a defense policy unlike today’s in that it was actually designed to defend the American people.

I have been a Republican precinct committeeman; my county Republican Party elected me its “Man of the Year” in 1988; I have written speeches for conservative candidates and office holders; and I have been employed by statewide and national political organizations and campaigns, including the National Conservative Political Action Committee. Despite my disappointment in Goldwater for not supporting Reagan, I was there when a small band of the faithful—no more than four or five of us—gathered for a potluck dinner to support the creation of a brand-new public-policy think tank named after “Mr. Conservative.” The enterprise blossomed, and I was honored several months ago to serve as Master of Ceremonies for the Goldwater Institute’s 15th Anniversary Gala.

I can assure you then that my criticism of Bush has been on the basis of long-held conservative principles. It begins with respect for the wisdom of the Founders and the Constitution’s division of power and delegation of authority, and extends to an adherence to the principles of governmental restraint and fiscal prudence. It proved to be a message that was more than a little inconvenient for my employer.

Clear Channel Communications, the 800-pound gorilla of the radio business, owns an astonishing 1,200 stations in 50 states, including Newstalk 550 KFYI in Phoenix, where I do the afternoon program … or did until last summer. The principals of Clear Channel, a Texas-based company, have been substantial contributors to George W. Bush’s fortunes since before he became president. In fact, Texas billionaire Tom Hicks can be said to be the man who made Bush a millionaire when he purchased the future president’s baseball team, the Texas Rangers. Tom Hicks is now vice chairman of Clear Channel. Clear Channel stations were unusually visible during the war with what corporate flacks now call “pro-troop rallies.” In tone and substance, they were virtually indistinguishable from pro-Bush rallies. I’m sure the administration, which faced a host of regulatory issues affecting Clear Channel, was not displeased.

Criticism of Bush and his ever-shifting pretext for a first-strike war (what exactly was it we were pre-empting anyway?) has proved so serious a violation of Clear Channel’s cultural taboo that only a good contract has kept me from being fired outright. Roxanne Cordonier, a radio personality at Clear Channel’s WMYI 102.5 in Greenville, S.C., didn’t have it as good. Cordonier, who worked under the name Roxanne Walker, was the South Carolina Broadcasters Association’s 2002 Radio Personality of the Year. That apparently wasn’t enough for Clear Channel. Her lawsuit against the company alleges that she was belittled on the air and reprimanded by her station for opposing the invasion of Iraq. Then she was fired.

They couldn’t really fire me, at least without paying me a substantial sum of money, but I was certainly belittled on the air for opposing the war. The other KFYI talk-show hosts—so bloodthirsty that they made Bush apologists and superhawks Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity sound moderate—vilified me almost daily. As a former radio-station owner myself, it was a little hard to believe management would allow one of their key hosts to be trashed day in and day out on their own airwaves. After all, we sell radio time on the basis of its ability to influence people’s behavior. A wiser programming approach would have been to showcase me as an object of curiosity, with a challenge to listeners to see if they could discover where I had gone wrong or how I was missing the imminent threat Iraq posed to the American people. No doubt the constant vilification I received and my heterodoxy on the war cost me audience during the interlude. It was certainly enough to get pictures of me morphing into those of the French president posted on the Free Republic Web site during the “freedom fries” silliness. A banner there read, “Boycott Charles Chirac Goyette at KFYI radio Phoenix, AZ! Protest against the Charles Goyette Show from 4-7pm at KFYI for his leftist subervsive [sic] Bush-bashing rants. Turn off KFYI radio for the Charles Goyette Show! No liberal scum talk shows on KFYI!” Radio does provoke people, doesn’t it?

One Clear Channel executive had me take an unexpected day off for the sin of reporting the breaking news on March 27, 2003, that neocon hawk Richard Perle, of the Defense Policy Board, had relinquished his chairmanship under scrutiny of his business dealings and for blaspheming that Donald Rumsfeld was the worst Secretary of Defense since Robert McNamara. So great were these transgressions that the radio gods themselves must have been aghast at my impiety. I explained in conference-room confrontations that both positions were completely respectable points of view. The comparison with McNamara had been made repeatedly in subsequent days in the mainstream media. I specifically cited “The McLaughlin Group” the following Friday and the New York Times the following Monday, and in describing the Perle resignation, I relied upon details from both Seymour Hersh in the New Yorker and from syndicated columnist Arianna Huffington. “Well, then,” they explained, the problem was “the emotionalism” of my remarks. Imagine that, emotionalism in talk radio? I reminded them that for years we had run promotions identifying KFYI as “the Place with More Passion,” where the Charles Goyette Show was positioned as “Fearless Talk Radio!”

Clear Channel made it clear—“With you, I feel like I’m managing the Dixie Chicks,” said my program director—that they would have liked to fire me anyway. While a well-drafted contract made that difficult, it did not prevent them from tucking me away outside prime time.

So I’m a talk-show war casualty. My contract expires in a few more months and—my iconoclasm being noted—it is not likely it will be renewed. Among the survivors at my station: one host who wanted to nuke Afghanistan (he bills himself as “your voice of reason and moderation”) and another who upon learning that 23-year-old Mideast peace activist Rachel Corrie had been run over by an Israeli bulldozer shouted, “Back up and run over her again!” As he doesn’t quite get some of the important distinctions in these debates, such as that Iranians should not be called Arabs, we would hope that he’s not taken too seriously. Likewise my replacements in the afternoon drive slot, brought in for glamorizing the war and billed as “The Comedy Channel meets Talk Radio.” If you remember the “Saturday Night Live” skit “Superfans” with Mike Myers and Chris Farley—“Who’s stronger, God or da Bulls?” “Da Bulls!”—then you get the idea. Only instead of “da Bulls,” it’s three hours every afternoon of “da Bush!” Expect to hear more insightful topics like “So Who’s Tougher: Michael Jordan or Donald Rumsfeld?”

I’ve seen how war fever infects a people. And I was in a no-win situation, with an audience pre-screened by virtue of 11 hours a day of screaming war frenzy—unlistenable for the uninfected—that surrounded my time slot. So I knew there would be a personal price for opposing the war, and I was prepared to pay it. But as a lover of the rough and tumble of public debate and the contest of ideas, I am disappointed at what is happening in my industry. At least at Clear Channel, there’s only one word for the belief that talk radio is still a fair and fearless search for the truth: “Un-Bull-ieveable!”


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Politics/Elections; US: Arizona
KEYWORDS: charlesgoyette; kfyi; talkradio
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What Goyette doesn't comprehend is that Radio is a business. I stopped listening to the guy a long time ago, and obviously many others did to.

I contacted the station, which is a rare thing for me to do, to vociferiously protest Goyette's stupid positions about the anti-terrorist actions the US was taking.

The biggest problem I've got with anti-war folks like Goyette is they treat it like it was just another domestic political position. Something you can endlessly argue about.

But war is different. Once committed to war (and the use of force WAS authorized by Congress - so no BS about the Congress not "declaring" war), any decent citizen should support the war 100%, or leave the country.

The effect on the families of service members killed ought to be enough to prevent these people from turning War into a political football.

But even more important, the effect on the enemey to encurage his continued resistance, and encuraging the enemey to believe that internal US politics could "win" the war for him, as it did for Vietnam, should make the actions of a radio guy like Goyette, treason.

1 posted on 01/12/2004 9:49:33 AM PST by narby
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2 posted on 01/12/2004 9:51:31 AM PST by Support Free Republic (If Woody had gone straight to the police, this would never have happened!)
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To: narby
Enemey = Enemy
3 posted on 01/12/2004 9:53:08 AM PST by narby (McGovern lost in 72 - and launched the left's takover of the Dem party)
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To: narby
YOB
4 posted on 01/12/2004 9:53:48 AM PST by Tijeras_Slim (Death before dhimmi.)
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To: narby
Related posting - How To Lose Your Job in Talk Radio
5 posted on 01/12/2004 9:54:49 AM PST by CoolGuyVic
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To: narby
Comparing an era where wars were fought exclusively by nation-states, using military formations, with our current dilemma is less than useful. Enough nerve gas to kill everyone in Times Square might fit in one barrel. 9/11 killed thousands and did billions of dollars in damage without using any military equipment at all.
6 posted on 01/12/2004 9:56:04 AM PST by Dilbert56
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To: narby
I have to admit I've not been listening to the Goyette for quite a while. He's a bilge for every Phoenix conspiracy to come down the pike.

I emailed the chickboss and asked her to put Tony Snow on in his place.

7 posted on 01/12/2004 9:56:27 AM PST by Cyber Liberty ( 2003, Ravin' Lunatic since 4/98)
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To: CoolGuyVic
I did a search. Promise!

I searched on "lose your job", and looked for the recent postings and this didn't show up.

Maybe I didn't go back far enough?

Anyway, it's a topic this AM on KFYI

8 posted on 01/12/2004 9:56:53 AM PST by narby (McGovern lost in 72 - and launched the left's takover of the Dem party)
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To: Dilbert56
Comparing an era where wars were fought exclusively by nation-states, using military formations, with our current dilemma is less than useful. Enough nerve gas to kill everyone in Times Square might fit in one barrel. 9/11 killed thousands and did billions of dollars in damage without using any military equipment at all.

The actions on 9/11 were taken by people who were supported by nation-states. Afghanistan specifically. And Iraq as well (training sites, and money to terrorist organizations).

I agree with the Bush doctrine of treating nation-states that support terrorists, as terrorists themselves. That's the only long term solution we have, and it seems to be working.

9 posted on 01/12/2004 10:00:19 AM PST by narby (McGovern lost in 72 - and launched the left's takover of the Dem party)
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To: narby; Luke FReeman; oldglory; gonzo
You may want to send him this quote:

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." -- U.S.General Tommy Franks (Central Command Iraq)

Hahahaha

10 posted on 01/12/2004 10:05:37 AM PST by Matchett-PI (Why do America's enemies desperately want DemocRATS back in power?)
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To: narby
Not a big deal. The other posts are a couple days old. Posts are pulled, it seems, only when they are stacked on top of each other or within a few hours of each other.
11 posted on 01/12/2004 10:05:54 AM PST by Burkeman1 ("If you see ten troubles comin down the road, nine will run into the ditch before they reach you")
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To: narby
I just wanted to link to the other one so people could see the other responses. The search seems to go wonky on me at times too.

That being said, I'm one of those loathed "anti-Iraqi war conservatives", but this guy sounds like a big baby.

12 posted on 01/12/2004 10:07:15 AM PST by CoolGuyVic
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To: CoolGuyVic
I am one as well. But he doesn't mention what is most important. His ratings. If he had good ratings he would have an argument. But if they were slipping then he doesn't have a leg to stand on.
13 posted on 01/12/2004 10:11:05 AM PST by Burkeman1 ("If you see ten troubles comin down the road, nine will run into the ditch before they reach you")
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To: CoolGuyVic
That being said, I'm one of those loathed "anti-Iraqi war conservatives",

The problem is, had your position won the domestic political battle after troops were engaged, then the US loses the war. Soldiers who died, did so in vain. Not because of a victorious enemy, but because of politics.

Once the balloon goes up, I think it's treason to act politically against the war.

Before the balloon goes up, fine. But not after.

14 posted on 01/12/2004 10:15:08 AM PST by narby (McGovern lost in 72 - and launched the left's takover of the Dem party)
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.
15 posted on 01/12/2004 10:16:07 AM PST by Mo1 (Join the dollar a day crowd now!)
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To: narby
It is just me, or does this guy come across as truly in love with himself? He seriously should consult a Psychiatrist.
16 posted on 01/12/2004 10:18:43 AM PST by richardtavor (Pray for the peace of Jerusalem in the name of the G-d of Jacob)
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Comment #17 Removed by Moderator

To: narby
How to Lose Your Yob...

Yumpin' yiminy! Yust hold on a minute here.

18 posted on 01/12/2004 10:21:10 AM PST by Prime Choice (Americans are a spiritual people. We're happy to help members of al Qaeda meet God.)
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To: Matchett-PI; Poohbah
General Franks ought to be careful, Representative Doug Ose does not like that sort of language!
19 posted on 01/12/2004 10:21:20 AM PST by hchutch (Why did the Nazgul run from Arwen's flash flood? All they managed to do was to end up dying tired.)
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yobs aplenty and.....

$300 to go, Please Help


20 posted on 01/12/2004 10:22:20 AM PST by deport (..... DONATE TO FREEREPUBLIC......)
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To: narby
Her's a quarter Mr. Goyette call someone in the sour grapes dept. who cares(Paul O'Neil).
21 posted on 01/12/2004 10:24:10 AM PST by Dane
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To: narby
"Once the balloon goes up, I think it's treason to act politically against the war."

That wouldn't fly if Clinton were the CinC, and it won't fly now. Otherwise, the President could deploy troops anywhere, anytime and it would be our patriotic duty to support it.

The real mistake is to continue to let our men and women die for no good reason.

22 posted on 01/12/2004 10:25:00 AM PST by CoolGuyVic
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To: narby
DID YOU EVER THINK YOU LOST YOUR YOB BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T SPIKE THE SWEDISH ACCENT?!?!??
23 posted on 01/12/2004 10:25:41 AM PST by Cinnamon Girl
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To: Dane
Cut and paste the same goofy comment on every thread.

Post it to the "who cares" thread.

24 posted on 01/12/2004 10:27:54 AM PST by Protagoras (When they asked me what I thought of freedom in America,,, I said I thought it would be a good idea.)
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To: narby
Sounds like the author is factually challenged.
25 posted on 01/12/2004 10:27:54 AM PST by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: Baynative
"I've always said that the protests to our effort in Iraq are a clear example of leftist insincerities."

This thread isn't about leftists or their insincerity.

Most leftists/liberals are insincere, but this is about principled, conservative dissent.

26 posted on 01/12/2004 10:28:49 AM PST by CoolGuyVic
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To: narby
Agree 100%. The point I was clumsily trying to make is that the way wars were fought in WWII left little room for doubt as to who the aggressor was. Also, the use of military power was rather visible. Terrorism's shadowy world is different. You may not know who did something. The price of waiting until something happens has increased with bio/nuclear weapons. The targets are not confined to military installations. So, to me, the author's comparisons to Pearl Harbor & France are bogus.
27 posted on 01/12/2004 10:34:25 AM PST by Dilbert56
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To: Protagoras
Cut and paste the same goofy comment on every thread

Nope, it just happened that there were two sour grapes "real conservative" threads going on.

28 posted on 01/12/2004 10:36:55 AM PST by Dane
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To: Dane
If they were threads for real conservatives, why were you there?
29 posted on 01/12/2004 10:40:18 AM PST by Protagoras (When they asked me what I thought of freedom in America,,, I said I thought it would be a good idea.)
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To: CoolGuyVic
Most leftists/liberals are insincere, but this is about principled, conservative dissent.

Yes, in your own mind. Let others say how principled you are instead of puffing up yourself. Otherwise, you look and sound fake.


30 posted on 01/12/2004 10:46:02 AM PST by rdb3 (Never enough muscle to stop a tertiary hustle.)
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To: narby
But war is different. Once committed to war (and the use of force WAS authorized by Congress - so no BS about the Congress not "declaring" war.....

BS?
The US Constitution is not BS.
The US Constitution does not enumerate powers to Congress to delgate its exclusive jurisdiction to the executive branch. Doing so would turn the legislative "branch" into a mere twig - something not ever intended by the founders. We can take joy in the fact that under President Bush, our armed forces have whupped ass all over the globe - but that does not mean we should turn a blind eye to the blatant trampling of the Constitution and the blurring of jurisdictional lines between the branches of government. We lament the fact that the judicial branch is arrogating unto itself legislative powers, with nary an effective protest from any quarter. Now, we see the executive plowing forward in the same manner - the Constitution be damned - but we go along because we happen to agree with the current President's politics. At some point in time, however, there will be hell to pay.

(BTW: Declaring War, per the US Constitution, would have eliminated all this fuss to begin with. So, why didn't we follow the Constitution in the first place?)


31 posted on 01/12/2004 10:47:43 AM PST by ppaul
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To: richardtavor
No, it's not just you. He trumped his horn throughout the buildup to war . . . going so far as to put out press releases to the national media promoting himself as "the nation's only conservative talk show host opposing war in Iraq." He didn't just have a little philosophical difference with his audience -- he used his stance as his attempted springboard to prominence.

Not that he is a liberal, but his approach did seem to be like many Democrats and local pro-business "republicans" who sided up with Janet Napolitano in her bid for governor. He figured that if he guessed right and had poo-poo'ed a war gone bad, he'd have increased prominence. So, he intellectually saddled up with the protestors. He claims he just had an honest disagreement. The trouble with that argument is that he didn't have a "gentleman's disagreement" but rather spent hours every day making fun of everyone who disagreed with him . . . whilst whining about being a maverick and putting out self-promoting press releases.

The guy is boring and sufficiently sanctimonious to turn most everyone off. I NEVER thought he was a "key" person at KFYI and am most happy to get to listen to someone else driving home.

32 posted on 01/12/2004 10:49:47 AM PST by hoyaloya
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To: hchutch
How to Lose Your Yob in Talk Radio

Sounds painful.

33 posted on 01/12/2004 10:50:59 AM PST by Poohbah ("Beware the fury of a patient man" -- John Dryden)
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To: richardtavor
He's a contrarian, imho. Support for the war was just too simple and obvious so Goyette was trying to 1-up everyone else by being "just a little bit smarter" than everyone else.

He had lots of help from Col. Hackworth, who was trying to sell his new book at the time. I got the feeling that because "Hack" was such a frequent guest that Charles had a scoop that no one else had. I, however, personally heard "Hack" on every station all over hells 1/2 acre. Hackworth was no visionary. So, I bailed when Charles kept questioning the war.

His afternnon drive ratings suffered, most logically, and I suspect management advised him of those facts. As a programmer, you put your weakest link where it does the least damage. I suspect that is being spun into this "censorship" story.

Morning host, Barry Young, today advised that Goyette's article clearly misrepresented his position as a pro-war mongering KFYI colleague (voice of reason and moderation). Now all Goyette's charges (exaggerations?) are being called into question.

Further, it appears that WMYI 102.5 in Greenville, S.C., where the lady was fired for voicing anti war sentiments is a music station, which would explain much. Can anyone verify.

And that's the skinny from Phoenix.

34 posted on 01/12/2004 10:52:58 AM PST by chiller (could be wrong, but doubt it)
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To: rdb3
"Yes, in your own mind. Let others say how principled you are instead of puffing up yourself. Otherwise, you look and sound fake. "

Just stating that the dissent is based on principles, wasn't trying to sound pious. I make no claim that my view is more "pure" or the "right" view.

35 posted on 01/12/2004 10:55:24 AM PST by CoolGuyVic
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To: CoolGuyVic
"The real mistake is to continue to let our men and women die for no good reason."

To finally come to terms as agreed upon that ended hostilities in Gulf War 1, to include 12 resolutions is not good enough?

Or is it that AMERICANS were fired upon everyday through the years by anti-aircraft fire?
If this were 1940 ish this would not even be a question. Firing upon Americans is an act of war plain and simple.

Millions of human beings being slaughtered is good enough reason for me.
36 posted on 01/12/2004 11:29:32 AM PST by AbsoluteJustice (By the time you read this 100 other Freepers will have posted what I have said here!)
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To: narby
It is far better to be fired for taking a stand than to be fired for low ratings. This was just a PR managment stunt to give the host an argument for getting a new gig.
37 posted on 01/12/2004 11:49:21 AM PST by longtermmemmory (Vote!)
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To: AbsoluteJustice
Or is it that AMERICANS were fired upon everyday through the years by anti-aircraft fire?
If this were 1940 ish this would not even be a question. Firing upon Americans is an act of war plain and simple.

Not to mention threatening the life of an American President.
38 posted on 01/12/2004 12:12:42 PM PST by kaktuskid
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To: kaktuskid
"Not to mention threatening the life of an American President."

Forgot that one too.
Then again to liberals to bring this into the equation would defeat the argument so why bother with it eh?
39 posted on 01/12/2004 12:36:30 PM PST by AbsoluteJustice (By the time you read this 100 other Freepers will have posted what I have said here!)
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To: narby
Why did this happen? Why only a couple of months after my company picked up the option on my contract for another year in the fifth-largest city in the United States, did it suddenly decide to relegate me to radio Outer Darkness?

Dolt, it's all about the 'book'.

poor ratings = no drive time

He's lucky to have a job, and after this rant he better hide from the General Manager.

40 posted on 01/12/2004 1:00:24 PM PST by TC Rider (The United States Constitution 1791. All Rights Reserved.)
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To: CoolGuyVic
That wouldn't fly if Clinton were the CinC, and it won't fly now. Otherwise, the President could deploy troops anywhere, anytime and it would be our patriotic duty to support it. The real mistake is to continue to let our men and women die for no good reason.

I don't remember any promenent Republicans arguing that Clinton should stop actions in Bosnia. There were some Reps that tepidly suggested that we were in there for the wrong reasons, but I remember none who suggested we leave after the action began.

Politically opposing a war is a move that litterally "aids and comforts" the ememy, giving them reason to hang on until the domestic political anti-war movement wins.

Almost 60k Americans were killed in SE Asia for nothing, because the anti-war people "won" it for the North. Books have been published since 1975 by North Vietnamese leaders saying they hung in there because of the US domestic help they were being given.

Between 2-3 million people died in SE Asia after the North "won" in 1975. The American anti-war people have blood on their hands.

The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are accomplishing anti-terrorism goals beyond their borders. I'm proud of what Bush is doing, and I support it.

41 posted on 01/12/2004 1:07:25 PM PST by narby (McGovern lost in 72 - and launched the left's takover of the Dem party)
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To: ppaul
(BTW: Declaring War, per the US Constitution, would have eliminated all this fuss to begin with. So, why didn't we follow the Constitution in the first place?)

Is there some specific required language the Constitution requires the Congress to use in order to "declare War"?

If the Congress authorizes "use of force", is that not making war?

The bottom line is that despite large numbers of very influencial people who are anti-war, none of them have gotten a case through the supreme court to halt actions in places from Korea through Vietnam to Iraq.

Under the Constitution, the SC is the arbiter, and obviously it hasn't stopped those actions, so my opinion is that all those actions were authorized. They just may not have used the exact phrase "Declaration of War".

42 posted on 01/12/2004 1:15:57 PM PST by narby (McGovern lost in 72 - and launched the left's takover of the Dem party)
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To: narby; Congressman Billybob
Congressman Billybob did a fine opinion article on just that subject.
43 posted on 01/12/2004 1:42:43 PM PST by hchutch (Why did the Nazgul run from Arwen's flash flood? All they managed to do was to end up dying tired.)
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To: narby
McGovern lost in 72 - and launched the left's takover of the Dem party

Totally disagree with you on this war. But read your tagline and more than agree. It has got even worse since then. If Dean is the Dem nominee- there is a serious chance even Massachusetts will vote Bush. Dean will be defeated so badly it might even be the death knell of the Democratic Party.

Just a comment on the Democratic party now. When the McGovern faction took over - they were at least still idealistic and believed in their policies and ideology. They don't believe in anything anymore than pure power. Do you think there is one Democrat who actually thinks Federal no frills Welfare is a "good policy"? Or that their support of teacher's unions and their anti choice stances is going to "help kids?" Nope. They don't believe one word they themselves say anymore. I need only point to one example of how easily they betray anything they once stood for- the Impeachment vote and Senate trial of Bill Clinton. And who is the head of the DNC? Terry MaCauliffe- who resembles the small town near-do-well who peddles pyramid schemes in between used car sales jobs.

When the Dems critisize the war in Iraq it is worthless jibberish. If they were in power they would be calling any opposition to the war "treason" just as they did against Republicans who raised doubts and objections to Clinton's disgusting "wag-the-dog" wars.

44 posted on 01/12/2004 4:27:27 PM PST by Burkeman1 ("If you see ten troubles comin down the road, nine will run into the ditch before they reach you")
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To: narby
I think he came across as arrogant, and I turned him off.
45 posted on 01/12/2004 4:33:48 PM PST by DLfromthedesert (What is the point of fighting in Iraq if we surrender to Vicente?)
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To: narby
After all, we sell radio time on the basis of its ability to influence people’s behavior

Oh crap!!! I am hypnotized!!!!

That does it!!!

I'm gonna go burn down every AM Station in the country and blame it on FM.....wait.... is it the other way around???......regardless...my defense at trial will be.......It's not my fault!!!

46 posted on 01/12/2004 4:43:36 PM PST by Focault's Pendulum
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To: ppaul
We "declared war" with respect to Iraq TWICE by action of the Congress, as required by the Constitution. Both times, the action of Congress used almost identical language as Congress did when it authorized President Jefferson to conduct the war against the Barbary Pirates in 1802.

If you would do your homework, you would know this. I wrote up seven "declarations of war" more than a year ago, in a UPI article that was published nationally. Please stop repeating this factually false statement that Congress never declared war with respect to Iraq.

Congressman Billybob

Click here to stick a thumb in the eye of CFR, "Hugh & Series, Critical & Pulled by JimRob."

47 posted on 01/12/2004 7:03:19 PM PST by Congressman Billybob (www.ArmorforCongress.com Visit. Join. Help. Please.)
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To: narby
You are absolutely right. There is no magic language that Congress must use to "declare war." A majority of both Houses of Congress authorizing the "use of military force" in all "necessary ways" is quite sufficient, today, as it was with regard to the Barbary Pirates, two centuries ago.

John / Billybob

48 posted on 01/12/2004 7:09:39 PM PST by Congressman Billybob (www.ArmorforCongress.com Visit. Join. Help. Please.)
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To: Baynative
But real peace is not their heartfelt concern, is it? They will wait until another tyrant forces our hand and then ignite their street theater in a show of solidarity for surrender to socialist domination.

Bumpity-bump.

Excellent comments. More worthy of attention than the "look-at-me" article this thread follows.

49 posted on 01/12/2004 7:42:18 PM PST by Snuffington
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To: CoolGuyVic
Most leftists/liberals are insincere, but this is about principled, conservative dissent.

Which just goes to show, conservative principles, once divorced from reality, are no better guide than their liberal equivalent. I don't hate this guy. I just find his screed silly and immature.

50 posted on 01/12/2004 7:46:20 PM PST by Snuffington
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