Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Cardinal favours condoms to stop AIDS (leading candidates to succeed Pope John Paul)
The Guardian via SMH ^ | January 14, 2004 | John Hooper in Rome and Andrew Osborn in Brussels

Posted on 01/13/2004 6:30:40 AM PST by dead

A Belgian cardinal who is among the leading candidates to succeed Pope John Paul has broken the Catholic church's taboo on the use of condoms, declaring that, in certain circumstances, they should be used to prevent the spread of AIDS.

Godfried Danneels was careful to say he preferred abstinence as a means of prevention, but added that if someone who was HIV-positive did have sex, failing to use a condom would break the sixth commandment, thou shalt not kill.

His comments are a further sign that the ailing Pope may be losing some grip on the more liberal wing of his immense church. Shortly after being named a "prince of the church" last September, Cardinal Keith O'Brien, of Scotland, said the ban on contraception should be debated, along with such issues as priestly celibacy and homosexual clergy.

In an interview with the Dutch Catholic broadcaster RKK, Cardinal Danneels said: "When someone is HIV-positive and his partner says, 'I want to have sexual relations with you', he doesn't have to do that . . . But when he does, he has to use a condom."

He added: "This comes down to protecting yourself in a preventive manner against a disease or death. [It] cannot be entirely morally judged in the same manner as a pure method of birth control."

The cardinal's argument emphasises the importance of human life, the very factor that Pope John Paul has long evinced as justification for a ban on all forms of contraception.

The Catholic church teaches that abstinence, including between married couples, is the only morally acceptable way to prevent the spread of AIDS.

Cardinal Danneels's views clash with those aired last year by Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, the Vatican's top adviser on family questions. The Colombian cardinal claimed that condoms could not halt HIV because it was small enough to pass through them. He said relying on them to prevent infection was like "betting on your own death".

Those remarks were condemned by, among others, the World Health Organisation, which said condoms reduced the risk of infection by 90 per cent.

In 2000, Cardinal Danneels caused consternation in the Vatican by suggesting that popes should not remain in office until they died but have limited terms.

Cardinal Danneels, 70, and Archbishop of Brussels and Mechelen,

has also called for flexibility and leniency for Catholics who divorce and then remarry without obtaining a church-sanctioned annulment, and has said he advocates women playing a larger role in the church.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: aids; catholic; godfrieddanneels; vatican
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-150151-200 ... 351-384 next last

1 posted on 01/13/2004 6:30:41 AM PST by dead
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: dead
And the hot, firey, bottomless pit, keeps getting deeper.

Not to worry, there's plenty of room along side those that advanced those who stand in the gay pulpits.

2 posted on 01/13/2004 6:37:23 AM PST by chachacha
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: dead
. . . failing to use a condom would break the sixth commandment, thou shalt not kill.

Either the article is wrong, or the cardinal is a f#cking moron -- the Sixth Commandment is as follows: "Thou shalt not commit adultery."

3 posted on 01/13/2004 6:41:56 AM PST by Alberta's Child (Alberta -- the TRUE North strong and free.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: dead
among the leading candidates to succeed Pope John Paul

The editors of the Guardian check the mail every day, wondering where their ballot can be.

4 posted on 01/13/2004 6:43:12 AM PST by Romulus (Nothing really good ever happened after 1789.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Romulus
LOL! The NY Times wonders also.
5 posted on 01/13/2004 6:44:49 AM PST by dead (I've got my eye out for Mullah Omar.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: chachacha
Well, at least he's shown his true colors and guaranteed that he won't be elected.
6 posted on 01/13/2004 6:46:08 AM PST by Malacoda
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: dead
"A Belgian cardinal who is among the leading candidates to succeed Pope John Paul"

I guess he didn't want the job.
7 posted on 01/13/2004 6:48:08 AM PST by reed_inthe_wind (I reprogrammed my computer to think existentially, I get the same results only slower)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: dead
All heresy begins below the belt.
8 posted on 01/13/2004 7:02:47 AM PST by johnb2004
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: johnb2004
think about it. Married people get aids from either preexisting sexual activity or from blood. Now in the context of marital sex with a spouse with aids, would you be opposed to condom usuage.
9 posted on 01/13/2004 7:42:06 AM PST by cajungirl (.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: cajungirl
Yes. The act of contraception is intrinsically evil One may never commit an intrinsically evil act even if some limited good may come from it.
10 posted on 01/13/2004 8:10:17 AM PST by johnb2004
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: dead
....in certain circumstances, they should be used to prevent the spread of AIDS.

It hasn't helped yet, cardinal. In certain circumstances, when you step in front of a fast moving bus you will not get hurt.

Let's all just step around the issue and pretend that it does not exist, something similar to the sexual abuse that has occured in the catholic church in the past.


11 posted on 01/13/2004 8:16:35 AM PST by gathersnomoss
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: dead
"Cardinal Danneels, 70, and Archbishop of Brussels and Mechelen,


has also called for flexibility and leniency for Catholics who divorce and then remarry without obtaining a church-sanctioned annulment, and has said he advocates women playing a larger role in the church."

It should also mention that the cardinal tends to place himself above the Church and Christ, depending on the issue of course.

12 posted on 01/13/2004 8:27:23 AM PST by johnb2004
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: johnb2004
So if your spouse contracts aids from a blood transfusion, what are you going to do. The condom would be for protection from a killer disease, not contraception. If you can honestly say you would either become celibate within marriage or risk getting aids for what you see as an absolute, well, that is just dandy.
13 posted on 01/13/2004 8:54:15 AM PST by cajungirl (.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: cajungirl
I do not know that it would be dandy, but it would be doing the will of Christ. Did He not say to pick up your cross and follw me?
14 posted on 01/13/2004 9:00:57 AM PST by johnb2004
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: johnb2004
Christ never mentioned condoms if you ask me. But that is just my opinion. I find it strange that one would face a choice of celibacy in marriage or risk to a disease that kills and find that in religion.
15 posted on 01/13/2004 9:03:17 AM PST by cajungirl (.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: cajungirl
Christ never said anything about abortion or many other things. So What? He left a living authority. That is not my opinion, that is God's will.
16 posted on 01/13/2004 9:06:24 AM PST by johnb2004
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: johnb2004
I've read that the Archbishop of Paris (the son of Jewish parents who died in the Holocaust, a man who converted to Catholicism) is also one of the leading candidates to succeed John Paul II.
17 posted on 01/13/2004 9:10:20 AM PST by Ciexyz
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Ciexyz
I guess only the Holy Spirit knows who will be the next pope. I hope for Pell or Arinze.
18 posted on 01/13/2004 9:15:47 AM PST by johnb2004
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: cajungirl
Bishop Kevin Dowling, bishop of Rustenberg, South Africa, also favors allowing the use of condoms in the context of marriage in Africa.

In some tribes, refusing sexual relations to a marriage partner can result in physical punishment.

From an article in NCR last week:

Dowling said he endorses the “ABCs” of abstinence, being faithful to one partner and living in a committed relationship, but noted that this is only possible in a “regular” or freely chosen partnership. When someone is forced into prostitution in order to eat or when a woman cannot refuse her spouse and transmission of the AIDS virus is likely, the bishop said, she ought to be able to safeguard her life by using a condom and microbicides.

Wearing a condom to protect one’s life or the life of one’s partner is not the same as using it to prevent new life, Dowling said. When used to shield the body from the AIDS virus, a condom is not a contraceptive, he added, and thus does not conflict with traditional church teaching.

Dowling said he is encouraged by support he has received from theologians. The Southern African bishops’ conference remains firmly opposed to their use, but the bishops have “opened the door” a crack in the case of “discordant couples,” he said, allowing a partner to make “an informed choice” if the other partner is infected with the deadly virus.

There might be some applicability of the principle of double effect here: the woman uses the condom to save her life. That is the primary use. The fact that it also serves as a contraceptive is a secondary effect.

19 posted on 01/13/2004 9:39:23 AM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: johnb2004
I do not know that it would be dandy, but it would be doing the will of Christ. Did He not say to pick up your cross and follw me?

You think a spouse has to expose themselves to the risk of death in order to fulfill the marital relationship? In some cases, these women HAVE NO CHOICE.

20 posted on 01/13/2004 9:42:16 AM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: Alberta's Child
I say moron
21 posted on 01/13/2004 9:44:04 AM PST by pctech
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: johnb2004
All heresy begins below the belt.

It comes from thinking with the little head...

22 posted on 01/13/2004 9:45:21 AM PST by ArrogantBustard
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: sinkspur
I await a reply form the vatican. I doubt they will agree with the dissenters. I have heard for years that the vatican will allow x or y and so go and do it now.

These issues did not just arise. If there is some problem with tribes in Africa and married men imposing their will on their wives than the authorities need to step in and change that culture.

Condoms are not the answer.
23 posted on 01/13/2004 9:55:47 AM PST by johnb2004
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: sinkspur
You offer a hobson's choice. I reject that logic. Condoms are hardly the answer to these issues.
24 posted on 01/13/2004 9:57:17 AM PST by johnb2004
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: sinkspur
You offer a hobson's choice. I reject that logic. Condoms are hardly the answer to these issues.
25 posted on 01/13/2004 9:57:28 AM PST by johnb2004
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: johnb2004
What would you recommend that married couples do when one is HIV+ and one isn't?
26 posted on 01/13/2004 10:00:52 AM PST by Stone Mountain
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: Alberta's Child; pctech
Either the article is wrong, or the cardinal is a f#cking moron -- the Sixth Commandment is as follows: "Thou shalt not commit adultery."

I vote moron.

Or a third choice - the man is clearly a Protestant. I vote Protestant (but I reserve the right to vote moron at a later time).

27 posted on 01/13/2004 10:01:55 AM PST by old and tired
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: dead
It always seems to be the Belgians.
28 posted on 01/13/2004 10:04:01 AM PST by Desdemona (Kempis' Imitation of Christ online! http://www.leaderu.com/cyber/books/imitation/imitation.html)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: johnb2004
If there is some problem with tribes in Africa and married men imposing their will on their wives than the authorities need to step in and change that culture.

Change a culture? You're asking women to risk death while they wait for authorities, dominated by men, to change a culture?

You offer a hobson's choice. I reject that logic. Condoms are hardly the answer to these issues

Apparently, you have no answer to this "hobson's choice." It's a reality, john, and it is highly likely that priests on the ground are telling these women to use condoms in order to save their lives!

Would Christ condemn these women to death?

29 posted on 01/13/2004 10:05:05 AM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Stone Mountain
I would hope they would give assent of the heart and mind to all that the Church of Christ teaches. I would hope they would accept all that God gives them. I would hope that they follow a well formed conscience that does not place themselves above the Church. I would hope they follow Christ and not pop culture or lax dissobedient trendy vicars.

I would hope they believe there exists an eternal Truth.
30 posted on 01/13/2004 10:06:13 AM PST by johnb2004
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: johnb2004
I would hope they would give assent of the heart and mind to all that the Church of Christ teaches. I would hope they would accept all that God gives them. I would hope that they follow a well formed conscience that does not place themselves above the Church. I would hope they follow Christ and not pop culture or lax dissobedient trendy vicars.

This is so much nonsense to a woman who is expected to be submissive to her husband every time he asks for sex, and she knows he has the AIDS virus. Oh, and she has four other children she has to care for, and stay alive for.

And she can't use a condom to save her life?

31 posted on 01/13/2004 10:09:30 AM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: johnb2004
John, you have no answer for this woman, do you? (Platitudes are not an answer).
32 posted on 01/13/2004 10:11:24 AM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: sinkspur
I restate that one may never commit an intrinsically evil act. Do you agree?

What priests tell people is not the issue. Many priests today are hardly loyal to their faith. Pick up a paper.

Would Christ condemn these women to death?

I do not know that condoms bring or save life. I would ask you a question. Would Christ allow an airplane to fall out of the sky and kill all? Would Christ allow a baby to be born with no arms?
33 posted on 01/13/2004 10:12:14 AM PST by johnb2004
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: sinkspur
You think a spouse has to expose themselves to the risk of death in order to fulfill the marital relationship? In some cases, these women HAVE NO CHOICE.

What incredible foolishness. Married couples in which one spouse is HIV+ should live continently. Don't tell me continence is impossible. Lack of sex has never killed anyone.

If you're telling me the HIV- wives are willing to be continent, but their husbands are forcing themselves on them, then the wives should leave. For an HIV+ man to force his wife to have relations constitutes serious spousal abuse, with or without a condom.

34 posted on 01/13/2004 10:12:19 AM PST by Campion
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: sinkspur
This is so much nonsense to a woman who is expected to be submissive to her husband every time he asks for sex

That's not Catholic teaching. I'd hope you know that. Reasonable requests for marital relations must be honored; "I'm HIV+ and I gotta get some, so I'll wear a rubber and lesson your risk of getting a fatal disease a little bit" is not a reasonable request.

If you're saying it's a cultural thing, then I'd tell you that Christians sometimes need to rise above their culture.

35 posted on 01/13/2004 10:15:26 AM PST by Campion
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Campion
If you're saying it's a cultural thing, then I'd tell you that Christians sometimes need to rise above their culture.

You'd tell that to a woman whose husband is not Christian, or a marginal one at best?

What does she do to protect herself from a man who obviously doesn't care if he exposes her to the AIDS virus? I'm serious about this.

Is the Church reduced to just mouthing platitudes, patting the woman on the head, and telling her that "God will provide"?

36 posted on 01/13/2004 10:18:23 AM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: Alberta's Child
Why would a Catholic be quoting the King James Version anyway?
37 posted on 01/13/2004 10:20:15 AM PST by The Grammarian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: johnb2004
I do not know that condoms bring or save life.

They offer better protection than nothing at all.

I would ask you a question. Would Christ allow an airplane to fall out of the sky and kill all? Would Christ allow a baby to be born with no arms?

What do these have to do with anything? I can't control what other people do with airplanes, nor the birth of a baby with no arms.

I CAN control whether or not a woman is exposed to a deadly virus.

38 posted on 01/13/2004 10:21:04 AM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: Stone Mountain
I would hope they would give assent of the heart and mind to all that the Church of Christ teaches. I would hope they would accept all that God gives them. I would hope that they follow a well formed conscience that does not place themselves above the Church. I would hope they follow Christ and not pop culture or lax dissobedient trendy vicars.

I would hope they believe there exists an eternal Truth.

In other words, he's full of so-called scriptural hot air and doesn't have an answer one for you.

39 posted on 01/13/2004 10:21:20 AM PST by ShadowDancer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: sinkspur
platitudes? You think obeying Christ is some platitude. Your secular mindset is exactly what is wrong with the Church today. Do you ever look at actions from the stand point of eternity? Does everything come down to a condom or VOTF or some secular answer to you?
40 posted on 01/13/2004 10:23:56 AM PST by johnb2004
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: Campion
If you're telling me the HIV- wives are willing to be continent, but their husbands are forcing themselves on them, then the wives should leave.

Perhaps it's not so easy to do that, in some cultures. She may be condemning herself to a life of ostracism and starvation.

We're not talking about a "contraceptive" mentality here, Campion. This is about life and death.

41 posted on 01/13/2004 10:24:02 AM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: dead
Danneels is only a "leading candidate for the Papacy" in the wildest fantasies of the most demented, homo-promoting, liturgical dancing, wreckovating, wacked-out liberals. I'd place his chances of being elevated to the papal chair at somewhere between 1,000,000,000,000,000 to 1 and nil.
42 posted on 01/13/2004 10:25:25 AM PST by Antoninus (In hoc signo, vinces )
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: sinkspur
What do these have to do with anything? I can't control what other people do with airplanes, nor the birth of a baby with no arms.

You asked me if Christ would allow a woman to die. I asked you those questions to show you that Christ has a permissive and oradining will.

"I CAN control whether or not a woman is exposed to a deadly virus."

It can be controlled by abstaining and following Christ's will.
43 posted on 01/13/2004 10:26:52 AM PST by johnb2004
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: johnb2004
Do you ever look at actions from the stand point of eternity?

So, let me get this straight, since you've offered nothing but boilerplate here:

You have no problem insisting that a woman expose herself to the AIDS virus when a condom might protect her from it? Especially since her motivation is not to prevent conception, but to prevent DEATH!

44 posted on 01/13/2004 10:27:09 AM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: johnb2004
It can be controlled by abstaining and following Christ's will.

What if she can't? Her husband insists.

You're obfuscating because you don't want to address the issue.

The Church doesn't seem to want to discuss the issue either.

45 posted on 01/13/2004 10:29:14 AM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: johnb2004
It can be controlled by abstaining and following Christ's will.

What if she can't? Her husband insists.

You're obfuscating because you don't want to address the issue.

The Church doesn't seem to want to discuss the issue either.

46 posted on 01/13/2004 10:29:20 AM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: sinkspur
I offer abstaining from sex.
47 posted on 01/13/2004 10:30:15 AM PST by johnb2004
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: johnb2004
You asked me if Christ would allow a woman to die. I asked you those questions to show you that Christ has a permissive and oradining will.

So, if we could have stopped planes from flying into buildings on 9/11, we shouldn't have, so that Christ's permissive will might be fulfilled?

How foolish.

48 posted on 01/13/2004 10:30:53 AM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: johnb2004
Your spouting off your philosophy does not address the issue of whether you think your religion would visit death on a woman rather than her protecting herself with a condom. Apparently you choose death and comfort yourself with vanity.
49 posted on 01/13/2004 10:30:55 AM PST by cajungirl (.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: sinkspur
There might be some applicability of the principle of double effect here: the woman uses the condom to save her life. That is the primary use. The fact that it also serves as a contraceptive is a secondary effect.

Oh please. We can always depend on you to uphold the radical position and attack traditional Church teaching. Your animus toward Humanae Vitae is showing, "deacon." Since when do we change Church teaching just to cater to some cultural oddity like wife beating for refusing sex? The traditional way the Church handled this type of situation was to strongly condemn sinner (in this case, the wife-beater), not by altering doctrine.
50 posted on 01/13/2004 10:32:00 AM PST by Antoninus (In hoc signo, vinces )
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-150151-200 ... 351-384 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson