Scooter clone takes on the Segway

BBC ^ | Jan 12 2004 | Alfred Hermida

[polemikos]

By Alfred Hermida
BBC News Online technology editor in Las Vegas

---

It took nine months to come up with the Segway clone

You could soon see a lot more people zipping around on stand-up Segway-type electric scooters.

A US company has come up with an imitation of the invention that was supposed to revolutionise transport.

The Rad2Go Q electric scooter looks like a Segway, but has four wheels and costs a quarter of the price.

"The Segway is a marvellous invention," said Rad2Go President John Wang, "but for me it is too much technology for moving from point A to point B."

The company has been drawing the crowds at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas, which ended on Sunday.

Cheaper and simpler

Just a quick glance at the Q reveals that it is no Segway.

THE RAD2GO Twin 150 watt hub motors 24 volt battery 10 mph top speed 10-15 miles range Cost between $1,000-1,500

The Segway is a two-wheeled, self-balancing scooter which sells for $4,495 on Amazon.

For its part, the Q stands on four wheels as there is no sophisticated built-in gyroscope.

The device is also significantly cheaper, costing between $1,000 and $1,500, depending on the model.

"When we saw the Segway, we thought it was not a bad idea," said Mr Wang, who decided there was room for a cheaper and simpler type of device.

"The more complication you have, the more problems you are likely to have," he told BBC News Online.

It took the California-based firm nine months to come up with the clone.

Show buzz

The Q has two 150 watt motors built into the wheels, powered by a 24 volt battery that lasts for between 10 and 15 miles.

It can reach a top speed of 10mph, which is comparable to the Segway.

The scooter also comes with a throttle controlled by the thumb, brakes, a headlamp and even indicator lights.

The Q caused a buzz at the CES, the world's largest consumer technology showcase, with dozens of people taking a break from traipsing through the show floor to ride the Q.

Mr Wang said they had sold thousands of units in just a few days, with people taking advantage of a discounted price of $800.

"It is a very secure feeling," said Carol Berman, as her husband ordered one of the $1,000 scooter.

The Q has just gone on sale in the US and the firm is negotiating with eight UK companies to bring the scooter across the Atlantic.

Mr Wang said he expected the scooter to be available in Britain in two to three months.

[Sloth]

Bending over backwards (i.e., spending tons of money) to insist on using only two wheels was the dumbest of several dumb things about the Segway.

[discostu]

Dammit! I knew I should have gotten a patent lawyer. That's almost exactly the fix I proposed to make the Segway marketable. He even used the same line to criticize the Segway: it is too much technology for moving from point A to point B.

If that guy turns out to be a FReeper I'm gonna kick his butt.

[gathersnomoss]

..."It is a very secure feeling," said Carol Berman, as her husband ordered one of the $1,000 scooter."

Carol, has your husband increased your life insurance lately? You might want to be looking out for my Buick. It's going to hurt.

[AppyPappy]

You still have the "pitching forward" problem.

[Wright is right!]

Think of the Segway as the MILSPEC version, this scooter as the civvy. The technology used by the Seg to balance with gyros is impressive, perhaps even unique. But, as you said, it isn't necessary for the basic premise of the scooter to be fulfilled - witness this li'l scooter at a quarter of the price. That doesn't mean that Kamen's technology can't be used in more unique applications.

Michael

[Jackson Brown]

Cheaper and simpler

And it don't fall down and go boom when it runs low on juice! (my FIRST doubt about the Segway when it was introduced).

Most people don't maintain their cars (etc.,etc.) until something goes wrong -- however -- cars don't fall over, taking you down with them, when they stall out.

4 wheels...that's a plus!

[polemikos]

Never underestimate the ability of engineers to confuse technical "gee-whiz" with market need.

[Howie66]

Who was it that said; "A FOOL and his money are soon parted"?

[js1138]

If this takes off it will revitalize the Segway. There's nothing about the Segway that has to be expensive except the battery. In the long run the Segway technology results in fewer moving parts, and it will be cheaper when mass produced.

[discostu]

That's why I said "almost" my idea was caster wheels fore and aft (I was gunning for super cheap, this one is still pricier than I think the target market it, but the price range I thought Segway should aim at is now pretty crowded with motorized Razor variants, making a stab at the middle ground is the right move now), just enough to keep it balanced. Although they're not giving us a picture of underneath, it could have something to keep it from pitching. I think the headlamp is a cool touch, still a dweeb mobile it's just a cheaper dweeb mobile salable to a larger market.

[polemikos]

That doesn't mean that Kamen's technology can't be used in more unique applications.

I'm sure that their gyro applied to the unicycle would greatly help that device and save on the precious natural resources wasted on building 2-wheel cycles ... (not).

[balrog666]

I prefer this two wheeled version:

Electric motor scooter!

[evets]

[discostu]

I think the gyroscope pad is what's driving up the cost. And of course the incredible lack of sales is keeping them from getting bulk discounts but if it ever takes off (which I'm still betting it never will) that would go away.

Segway has 5 gyroscopes, those are moving parts. Then there's the computer and its programming which doesn't have to be done again but still needs to be paid for. Also the additional moving parts for the Q are basically a motorcycle handlebar, probably really cheap to buy in bulk. I don't think there's anyway Segway could get down to Q's price range.

[discostu]

The same technology is driving Kamen's stairclimbing wheelchair which impresses me at least as much as the Segway disappoints me. IMHO the worst part about the Segway is that it's moved Kamen's focus away from that wheelchair which is a ground breaking device that could really help people.

[spodefly]

[Khurkris]

WallyWorld has 'em for $995.00

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=2432375&cat=103827&type=21&dept=4125&path=0%3A4125%3A4178%3A103827

posting links still evades me.

[Sloth]

That doesn't mean that Kamen's technology can't be used in more unique applications.

It already has. Kamen had an awesome gyro-balancing wheelchair that could climb stairs. And yeah, it'll be useful for something else in the future -- but it was silly to hype this pitiful little scooter so much.

[js1138]

I don't believe the Segway gyroscopes are mechanical.

[discostu]

According to the ad on Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00007EPJ6/xs-tag=_xna_tSegway/qid=1074029142/sr=45-1/ref=sr_45_1__xna_tSegway/103-3658858-1522214
They're "vibrating ring" gyros, not a classic mechanical spinning gyro but still moving parts.

It's really fun to read that page because it really demonstrates the root problem of the Segway, they threw tons of technology at it, the thing is visciously over engineered. Downgrading or eliminating half the parts would probably make the thing half the price and still allow it to work according to spec.

[kingu]

Hmm, I wonder if this would still be classified as a pedestrian under the laws that Segaway got passed in most of the states.

I also wonder how long until the lawsuits really start flying.

[Palmetto]

I don't believe the Segway gyroscopes are mechanical.

Hmm.

That may explain why they don't work.

[Little Bill]

I hope so. The PR person for Segway, Cheyrl Brolin, I forget her married name, is a commie. Spokesman for the Clinton labor departmant, director of PR for the Brady bunch, gun control before that, even her father, a friend of mine, an old style rat, thinks she is a commie.

[js1138]

Downgrading the technology is not the answer. The first 8088 PCs cost thousands of dollars. Their price was not reduced by downgrading the technology. I am not a prophet and cannot say whether people will ever want the Segway, but I can say that in quantity they could be sold for well under a thousand dollars.

The technology was originally developed for the iBot, a medical device that needs all the safety technology.

[Yo-Yo]

I don't believe the Segway gyroscopes are mechanical.

If they're not mechanical, then what are they? I have heard of laser ring gyroscopes that use fiber optics instead of a mechanical flywheel to detect 3 axis motion in navigational uses, but I don't think that there is much mechanical precession force behind light.

[DeltaZulu]

Try here

[Onelifetogive]

Bending over backwards (i.e., spending tons of money) to insist on using only two wheels was the dumbest of several dumb things about the Segway.

I disagree...

The dumbest thing about the Segway and now the Q is that if you have to stand up, you might as well just walk.

[js1138]

That may explain why they don't work.

Care to explain or offer an example of them not working when the scooter is turned on?

[discostu]

Downgrading the technology is exactly the answer. That's what the Q is.

You can't compare this to a computer, it's a completely different thing. These scooters are nothing more than low end transportation for people that want to go faster than a walk but don't want to ride a bike.

There's absolutely no possible way in the next 10 years (ie without major leaps in technology) that the Segway as is could be produced for sold than a grand. Even Kamen's projection didn't drop below $2500. There's too much tech in it to hit that price, too much gee whiz cutting edge junk that's really expensive to make and doesn't have competing providors and is protected by patents so it won't have competing providors any time soon. It's a 5000 dollar doo-dad trying to fit into a 500 dollar market space which is why it's a miserable failure and will stay a miserable failure.

[Onelifetogive]

...you can ride it to the train station or subway, fold it up and travel with ease.

The thing weighs 60 pounds. Picture "traveling with ease" with a 60 pound brief case getting on and off the train and up and down stairs.

[LibWhacker]

Glad to see this. The competition ought to force the folks at Segway to lower their absurdly high price (not that I want one; I just hate price gouging).

[js1138]

I think you're right about the price point, although a true Segway would sell at $1000. As for standing up, there are countless boomers like myself who, in 15 years, will be able to stand but will not have the mobility to grocery shop without assistance. Unlike our parents, we are not intimidated by gadgets and will be buying something like a Segway.

As for your timeframe, I am patient. It was nearly 15 years between the time I first saw a PC and the time I had one that worked as well as I wished.

[Erasmus]

I don't think that there is much mechanical precession force behind light.

Think Doppler.

[discostu]

A well designed Segway with a mind to the market space would be about $1000, which is the Qs price. Remember when Segway got unveiled they were projecting it at $3000 dropping to $2500 or so as prices increased, right now it's selling for $4500 and not selling for crap. Under the covers this is an expensive piece of hardware.

Actually Segway probably won't be very useful to people with mobility issues. Most mobility problems are caused by the downward pressure on knees and spine, not by the impact. Most people with mobility issues can't stand in line any better than they can walk around a store. Standing on a Segway won't help. What we'll be buying when we get old is something like Kamen's wheelchair
http://www.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/08/14/stair.climbing.wheelchair.ap/
which can elevate the rider to standing person height while leaving them sitting.

Your patience is immaterial. The Segway will probably not survive long enough to come down in price. Units aren't moving and the lower priced competition is gobbling up the market space. Segway will go out of business. The SHT will wind up on the ash heap of tech history. Hopefully he has his businesses well enough seperated that it won't kill the wheelchair.

[RightWhale]

Think Doppler.

The Segway goes about 10-20 mph. It is not rated for light speed.

[Paul Ross]

If they're not mechanical, then what are they?

Solid state! Check it:

"Balance Sensor Assembly (BSA)

The BSA, supplied by Silicon Sensing Systems, is an elegantly designed, extremely robust, and yet incredibly sensitive piece of equipment.

This small cube, 3 inches on a side, is packed with five solid-state, vibrating-ring, angular-rate sensors ("gyroscopes") that use the Coriolis effect to measure rotation speed. These tiny rings are electromechanically vibrated in such a way that when they are rotated, a small force is generated that can be detected in the internal electronics of the sensor. Each "gyro" is placed at a unique angle that allows it to measure multiple directions. Segway's onboard computers constantly compare the data from all five gyros to determine if any of the five is supplying faulty data--in this condition, it can compensate and use data from the remaining sensors to continue balancing through a controlled safety shutdown. Two tilt sensors filled with an electrolyte fluid provide a gravity reference in the same way your inner ear does for your own sense of balance. The BSA is monitored by two independent microprocessors and is split into two independent halves for redundancy. Even the communication between sides is performed optically to avoid electrical faults on one side propagating to the other."

Without this kind of technology (or its like, the LRG, laser-ring-gyro), I would never trust the Q... Way too tipsy. And noisy with the little small bogey wheels. Just not nearly as practical for outdoor use as the Segway. Segway is even now increasingly being used in many cases as a substitute for wheel-chair bound people who can still stand up. And at $4,500 versus $20,000 for an electric wheel chair...they are ridiculously cheaper. I would classify the Segway as the Chrysler or GM of the field. The Q is frankly a non-starter.

[Paul Ross]

We just had the Segway demonstrated at our Rotary meeting today, and it's operator stated that in 'advanced' mode that it ran at a top speed of 12-mph...limited by a speed governor for safety. That but for that, it could easily be run at 30+ mph...which would likely occasion unwanted accident claims against the Segway company....

[polemikos]

if you have to stand up, you might as well just walk.

Corollary: laying down is the best way to go?

[RightWhale]

One time I was riding my bike in the dark, back in the days where there was actual dark. I was doing about 20. Much to my surprise a bike passed by going the opposite direction doing also about 20 mph. Both of us were in complete blackout mode, of course, the only safe way to ride a bike. I suspect the other rider had the same instantaneous thought as I.

What fool--the other guy--would be out riding his bike in the total dark? We would both have been killed instantly except for the total accident of missing. 40 mph relative speed on a bike can be fatal.

Being dumped into traffic at 30 would also be beyond dangerous. You would probably be ground into a speed bump and then smoothed out within a minute.

[Paul Ross]

The power wheel chair Dean Kamen designed was displayed at our Rotary meeting as well, the I-Bot 2000 and it is being made by Johnson & JOhnson or some such big name...and Kamen already has made his fortune from them on that item alone. He has interestingly enough gotten $250 million in financing for the Segway, yet still maintained a phenomenal 80% stake in the company!!!

The slow ramp of sales is also according to design, so as to work bugs out and avoid liability. He is stressing sales to public services (notoriously cautious with new technology) coordinated with a Segway driver-'certification' approach to maximize the connotations of responsibility and safe operation.

Eventually it will wind up in the hands of the dare-devils...and that would unavoidably tarnish the marketing in certain segments.

[Orbiting_Rosie's_Head]

The dumbest thing about the Segway and now the Q is that if you have to stand up, you might as well just walk.

Bingo! Not much use for the handicapped. As for quick transport, like in a large factory or such, there are many small electric scooters on the market for $300 or less that have the same range and speed as a Segway.

[Khurkris]

Rad2Go

Success!

[discostu]

Good the wheelchair will survive the death of Segway.

There's absolutely no way the slow rampup of the Segway is according to design. If the rep told you that you should find him and deliver the proper punishment for lying to your face. All you have to do is look at the pricing, Kamen projected the sale price to start $3000 dropping to $2500 as sales picked, it's selling right now for $4500, 50% more than his initial price projection. Obviously sales are well below what was expected.

I'm hoping it might find a home as some in door NASCAR circuit, that could be cool.

[HuntsvilleTxVeteran]

Does any one remember the gas engine powered leg
mover?

[Orbiting_Rosie's_Head]

Downgrading the technology is exactly the answer. That's what the Q is.

If downgrading the technology is the answer, why not pass up the Q as well and buy a plain electric scooter for $399, or better yet, just walk.

[discostu]

I see Q as the highest marketable end of that space.

Walking has it's place but when you're looking at an 8 to 10 mile round trip (which I used to do) something other than walking would be really nice. Glad I have a car now but if those $400 jobs had been around when I was working fastfood I would definitely have found a way to buy one, life would have been good... by the lowered standard of that time in my life.

[expatpat]

Yes, the Segway was awful complicated and expensive for what it delivered as the bottom line (limited travel speed and exposure to the elements and safety hazards), once you get past the cute technology.

[Paul Ross]

The rep was from a company that leases, not sells. He had no real stake in the price staying this high. He did mention that when first rolled out, that production was slow, that units were difficult to get, and that they were priced at like $5,800 or more. Now they are already down to $4,500...and he did expect them to decline another thousand or so within a year. So you will be looking at about $3,500 for a Segway at the end of 2004. And if the sales picked up, who knows?

[Orbiting_Rosie's_Head]

Does any one remember the gas engine powered leg mover?

Yes! I remember that. I think I saw it a long time ago on a documentary called "Gizmo!" on HBO. I've since looked for this documentary on DVD, can't find it. There was also footage of a gas-powered horse that fell over with legs flailing and smoke belching. It was so cool.