Young Fogeys: Young reactionaries, aging radicals-U.S. Church's unusual clerical divide

The Atlantic Monthly ^ | January/February 2004 | Andrew Greeley

[NeoCaveman]

I get the impression that Greeley is upset that the generation of...
church wreckovating
tabernacle hiding
confitor omitting
OCP hymanal singing
Liturgical dance pushing
Felt banner waving
Homosexual coddling
"inclusive language" pushing
EWTN hating
liberals
...are dying out.

[Snuffington]

The cheesy liberal interpretation of Vatican II has been rejected and the young who remain are finding enrichment and fulfillment in the traditions, history, and true teachings of the Church, stretching back hundreds and thousands of years before the 1960s.

Well put.

The most striking difference I see between Greeley's "young fogeys" and his own generation is that the "fogeys" lack the emotion-driven love affair with Vatican II. They view it as one of many Church councils, primarily concerning itself with contemporary pastoral matters, some of which seem rather dated now.

They're only being "reactionary" if you assume Vatican II was a revolutionary break from the pre-Concillar Church. Thankfully, that is not the contention of either the Council itself, nor the post-Concillar popes. But it does seem embedded as such in the minds of the heterodox who dominate Greeley's generation.

[reed_inthe_wind]

"Anecdotal experience means absolutely nothing."

FreeRepublic is a grassroots medium. Antedotal evidence is everything in this forum. You sound like a reactionary one way broadcaster.

[kittymyrib]

This doesn't just pertain to the Catholic Church. Christianity will be much better off when the whole layer of '60s and '70s liberal clergy will be buried. They have done great harm to most church bodies throughout the world.

[sinkspur]

FreeRepublic is a grassroots medium. Antedotal evidence is everything in this forum.

Free Republic is anecdotal as well. Taking opinions expressed here and extrapolating them into some larger picture won't work, either.

[sinkspur]

OK.

[hobbes1]

For some reason, priests of all generations are unable or unwilling to see the clergy as responsible for the departure of disaffected laypersons;a problem that today plagues the U.S. Church.

Hmmmm....Odd isn't it that such a careful cogent analysis misses the fact that the departure occurs in synchronicity with VaticanII.....

You don't see many Tridentine parishes wanting for attendance....

[Notwithstanding]

Your posts are always amusing - and always selling laymen short. To be sure, you do offer misguided and shallow platitudes to the layman. But you generally presume that the layman is incapable of appreciating the higher, harder truths - ideals that man may not always achieve, but which are worth striving for nonetheless.

You presume that every layman is a hopeless boobus americanus. How very sad.

[NeoCaveman]

Hmmmm....Odd isn't it that such a careful cogent analysis misses the fact that the departure occurs in synchronicity with VaticanII.....

Because he is of that generation.....

My take is pretty similar to the repsonse in #22, wish I had articulated it first.

[sinkspur]

You presume that every layman is a hopeless boobus americanus.

Well, then I'll have to start having someone other than you in mind when I presume.

[reed_inthe_wind]

"They've still got a ways to go, apparently.
Sixty-percent of young priests think that there are at least some occasions in which contraception is not always wrong."

I have a true life story for all moralists young and old. From the day we were married my wife and I practiced natural family planning. Among Catholics, unfortunately we are not in the majority. When I started taking chemotherapy and other drugs noted for horrible birth defects, my doctor's had me sign a consent form that required that we use not one but two forms of birth control. A young priest told me that it would be a sin to use birth control despite the situation. I told him that God did not naturally put these drugs in my body, and that my death is imminent and that I didn't want my wife saddled with a child with a birth defect. I don't have anything against people with birth defects, but a single mom/widow doesn't need one if it can be helped. He wisely did not discuss abstinence since married couples have a sensual dimension to their relationship. I finally decided to continue using natural family planning to avoid the abortifacient effect of birth control, and to use the birth control. When I went to confession to this same priest, I told him that I am guilty of not wanting another child given this situation. He absolved me. Finally, I don't know what wording appeared in Greely's survey, but I expect that it didn't begin to cover the nuances of moral decision making. If Greely is smart enough to write such a survey, we can write a computer program to tell us what to do, and we won't need priests, preachers, bibles, Churches and theologians.

[The Iguana]

Anecdotal experience means absolutely nothing.

True.

I would say it is my experience as well; but I would also say that in so-called "rad-trad" or at least traditionalist parishes (like that of Fr. Weinberger in Dallas), the priest usually *is* in touch with the laity, but it's kind of a self-selecting sample, since there is a certain homogeneity and unity of outlook in the parish composition.

And there is nothing at all wrong with that. It just may not be typical.

Hipness does not automatically conflate with "in-touch" but I will also observe that the young (conservative) priests I know are surprisingly up to speed on pop culture. I think of Fr. Bryce Sibley (who has his own blog) and not only roasted me on a very difficult 80's pop music quiz; he got a perfect score. A couple points behind him was Fr. LaHood.

That only 2% of the American clergy thinks the sexual abuse situation was a "big deal" shows just how out of touch they really are.

The sample size seems large enough (1800+ priests of 30,000+) but I am assuming that the LA Times had to do the same thing we at the Kansas City Star did when we did our AIDS in the priesthood series - mail out a voluntary survey, and respondents were therefore self-selecting.

In other words, those who responded almost certainly were not representative. And in my experience, the more conservative types were usually more distrustful of the media and less likely to respond.

I am especially curious how that question was worded. Even for a self-selecting non-representative survey, 2% seems awfully low.

[sinkspur]

But you generally presume that the layman is incapable of appreciating the higher, harder truths - ideals that man may not always achieve, but which are worth striving for nonetheless.

Where do you get that idea?

I think laymen are pretty smart, smarter than most priests.

They thought the clerical abuse crisis was serious, whereas only 2% of priests thought it was.

In this case, the clerics have the problem with appreciating the higher truths.

[reed_inthe_wind]

"Free Republic is anecdotal as well. Taking opinions expressed here and extrapolating them into some larger picture won't work, either."

Please tell us the big picture Mr. broadcaster, and we promise not to open our unworthy mouths:

2 a (1) : inference of a generalized conclusion from particular instances -- compare DEDUCTION 2a (2) : a conclusion arrived at by induction b : mathematical demonstration of the validity of a law concerning all the positive integers by proving that it holds for the integer 1 and that if it holds for an arbitrarily chosen positive integer k it must hold for the integer k+1 -- called also mathematical induction

[sinkspur]

Please tell us the big picture Mr. broadcaster,

Could be more obtuse?

[Desdemona]

Yes, guilty as charged. I've been labelled an old fogey, despite my under-35 status, for quite a while.

[reed_inthe_wind]

"Could be more obtuse?"

For once we are unable to disagree. haha

[Notwithstanding]

What on earth are you talking about?

Up until the last 2 years lay Catholics did not care much at all about sexual abuse in the Church.

Your agenda is showing.

[sinkspur]

Up until the last 2 years lay Catholics did not care much at all about sexual abuse in the Church.

They didn't know the extent of it. Now they care.

The priests know about it, and 98% of them don't think it's any big deal.

[Incorrigible]

Priests as a group are simply not in touch with the laity.

The "new fogeys" better figure out a way to change this.

Sinkspur, remember this is Greeley who wrote this.  The guys I went to high school with who became priests (only one a Jesuit despite our schooling!) are generally more conservative than their elders but at the same time, try to avoid getting involved in priestly politics (not easy) and get to know their parishioners.  They don't prance around.  Well, OK, maybe one of them.

There's a traditional Monsignor from Ireland in my current parish (lucky us, he coincidently moved from our old parish around the time we were moving!).  The Diocese usually sends some young guys to serve in his parish for a few years before moving on to more responsible roles.  The current prelate is an all around good guy and very in touch with the laity and the organizations surrounding the parish.

We may be just lucky though.

And Doc, you have to put a "Greeley Alert" warning in the title of these threads lest one reads the content and becomes corrupted!

Priests as a group are simply not in touch with the laity.

The "new fogeys" better figure out a way to change this.