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Pollard's lawyers seek review on sentence
Penn Live ^ | 1/15/04 | Hope Yen

Posted on 01/15/2004 2:01:19 PM PST by Tumbleweed_Connection

Lawyers for convicted spy Jonathan Pollard are asking an appeals court to allow a review of his life sentence for selling military secrets to Israel.

The request filed Wednesday in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit seeks to overturn a judge's ruling in November that found Pollard had waited too long to challenge his 1987 sentence and rejected claims that Pollard's original attorneys did not adequately represent him.

Pollard's current lawyers argue that U.S. District Judge Thomas Hogan didn't address their claims that prosecutors reneged on a promise to seek a lesser sentence in return for Pollard's cooperation.

"Judge Hogan never addressed our principal argument, and addressed arguments we did not make or on which we do not rely," the lawyers said in their filing.

Pollard, 49, was a civilian intelligence analyst for the Navy when he copied reams of classified documents and gave them to Israel. He was not paid when his spying began in 1984, but acknowledged that Israel later began giving him a few thousand dollars a month.

Pollard was caught in November 1985 and arrested after unsuccessfully seeking refuge at the Israeli Embassy. The case has been a point of contention in U.S.-Israeli relations, with the Israeli government repeatedly pressing for his release.

At the Nov. 13 hearing, Hogan refused Pollard's request to review secret documents that the Reagan administration submitted to the judge who sentenced Pollard 16 years ago. An appeal of that ruling was filed in November.

Pollard's lawyers said they need to see the material to rebut government arguments against any new appeal or against a request for presidential clemency.

Government lawyers are scheduled to file their response to Pollard's motion by mid-February, and a ruling by the appeals court is expected sometime after mid-March, said Jacques Semmelman, Pollard's attorney.



TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Government
KEYWORDS: appeal; crackhead; fatspy; pollard; supportsrtraitors; treason; willdieinprison
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1 posted on 01/15/2004 2:01:19 PM PST by Tumbleweed_Connection
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To: Tumbleweed_Connection
I'm all for a review of his sentence:

Could we execute him?
Are volunteers needed for a firing squad?
2 posted on 01/15/2004 2:15:24 PM PST by Redbob
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To: Redbob
Exactly.

If we've discovered a way of executing him TWICE, well then, I'm all in favor of a careful re-assessment of his sentence.

Color me tolerant!

3 posted on 01/15/2004 2:18:31 PM PST by gaijin
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To: Tumbleweed_Connection
Boy, is this story full of spin. It's dead wrong on one fact and missing a few others:

In the final analysis, the man is a traitor and ought to have been executed. The Israelis are trying hard to ransom him or spring him with all these lawyers, as a means to encourage their other agents in the US military and intelligence agencies.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

4 posted on 01/15/2004 2:22:54 PM PST by Criminal Number 18F
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To: Tumbleweed_Connection
This is exactly the problem with life sentences (as opposed to executions). The convict has time to attempt to worm out of punishment. If they have a bankroll they can tie up the courts, and shop for a judge.
5 posted on 01/15/2004 2:23:51 PM PST by RKV (He who has the guns makes the rules.)
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To: Redbob
Could we execute him?

PLEASE! These wackos are currently fighting for terrorist rights to appeal! This topic NEEDS to be a part of their next national debate.

6 posted on 01/15/2004 2:24:54 PM PST by Tumbleweed_Connection (www.whatyoucrave.com)
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To: Criminal Number 18F
"as a means to encourage their other agents in the US military and intelligence agencies."

hmmmmmm

7 posted on 01/15/2004 2:26:06 PM PST by truthandjustice1
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To: Criminal Number 18F
"where it posed a mortal threat to American lives" - as I recall it got some of our agents killed when the Israelis sold the info.

http://www.aci.net/kalliste/pollard_em.htm
8 posted on 01/15/2004 2:26:35 PM PST by RKV (He who has the guns makes the rules.)
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To: RKV
Good link. Pollard did first approach the Russians and Chinese with his wares, and was turned down. However, the link erroneously identifies the senior US admin official who directed at least some of Pollard's actions (and whose real identity remains secret to this day) as, "Mr. X".

Actually, this uknown agent was known as, "Mega".

9 posted on 01/15/2004 2:39:04 PM PST by gaijin
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To: Redbob
LOL. It would us tax payers a lot of money.
10 posted on 01/15/2004 2:50:10 PM PST by Dubya (Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father,but by me)
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To: Tumbleweed_Connection
As a FReeper who supports Israel, I'm perfectly content to leave Pollard rot in prison.
11 posted on 01/15/2004 2:51:03 PM PST by Poohbah ("Beware the fury of a patient man" -- John Dryden)
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To: Criminal Number 18F
Material that he gave to the Israelis wound up, either through Russian penetration of the Israeli services or [more likely] Israeli remarketing of the information, in Soviet/Russian hands where it posed a mortal threat to American lives.

IIRC, the man believed to be Pollard's katsa (controller or case officer) was arrested about a week after Pollard went to prison. He was spying for the Russians. He's been staying in the Israeli Graybar Resort ever since.

12 posted on 01/15/2004 2:53:10 PM PST by Poohbah ("Beware the fury of a patient man" -- John Dryden)
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To: Tumbleweed_Connection
According to this Jack Anderson column, Pollard gave up a half-million pages of secrets, including:

Note that a number of those bits of information are of no practical use to Israel, but were priceless to the Soviet Union.

This selfless servant of world Jewry was paid thousands of dollars for each haul, cash on the barrelhead.

Anderson also repeats the allegation that the Israelis (specifically PM and former Stern Gang terrorist Yitzhak Shamir) remarketed some of this data to the Soviets, in return for concessions on Jewish emigration (needed to shore up Israel's weak demographics vis-a-vis the Palis).

If the Israelis want him that badly, they should be prepared to offer us something of equivalent value from their Russian pals' toybox. And thet should be prepared to receive him in pieces.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

13 posted on 01/15/2004 3:15:30 PM PST by Criminal Number 18F
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To: Criminal Number 18F
90% of that material would never have been released to the US Navy (Pollard's employer). Methinks Jack sweetened the descriptions a bit (he's been known to...ahem...well, "enhance" his stories from time to time).
14 posted on 01/15/2004 3:22:06 PM PST by Poohbah ("Beware the fury of a patient man" -- John Dryden)
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To: Criminal Number 18F
The trouble with Pollard was that the info he stoled and subsequently sold ended up in Russian hands. Some speculate that it was given to them so that they would allow Russian Jews to continue to emigrate to Israel

I have no way of knowing what the information was, but it caused the United States to expend thousands if not tens of thousand of hours of technical and scientific effort to change what Pollard had revealed. The loss, literally, was immeasurable.

I agree that Pollard should have been executed. Since he wasn't, he should be kept securely locked away until he meets his maker and then receives a reward based on his merit.

15 posted on 01/15/2004 3:52:12 PM PST by Citizen Tom Paine (Next to Clinton's China giveaways, Pollard probally caused the most damage.)
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To: Criminal Number 18F
The Israelis are trying hard to ransom him or spring him with all these lawyers, as a means to encourage their other agents in the US military and intelligence agencies.

Which Israelis are you referring to ?

Who do you think their other agents in the US military and intelligence agencies are ?

16 posted on 01/15/2004 3:58:31 PM PST by af_vet_1981
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To: Criminal Number 18F
This selfless servant of world Jewry

Tell us all about your problems with the world's Jews. Too many, right ?

17 posted on 01/15/2004 4:00:34 PM PST by af_vet_1981
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To: Criminal Number 18F
former Stern Gang terrorist Yitzhak Shamir

This type of language is typical of Islamic terrorists and their neoNazi confederates.

18 posted on 01/15/2004 4:06:27 PM PST by af_vet_1981
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To: RKV
I recall it got some of our agents killed when the Israelis sold the info.

Hard to say. 1985 was "the year of the spy" and over 1985-86 a classified but very high number (closer to 100 than zero) of sources in the USSR and Soviet Bloc were recalled to Russia and, mostly, executed. By January 1987 we were down to bupkus in terms of practical human sources in that part of the world. Not all these sources were fully recruited agents (probably a distinction w/o a difference to the lay person).

There were also significant diminutions in take from technical operations in that period.

The question is, who died because of Pollard? In 1985 not just Pollard, but Edward Howard, Aldrich Ames, Ronald Pelton, Army Warrant Officer James Hall, air force gay blade Jeffrey Carney, and the John Walker syndicate all gave up significant data directly to Soviet handlers. Others such as Sharon Scranage gave the data to 3rd parties who passed it to their Soviet liaisons or handlers. Pelton, Hall and Carney mostly compromised technical operations, and Howard, Ames and Scranage mostly gave up human sources. Walker gave up code machinery which has consequences for all kinds of operations. There were other rings active during this period that targeted military information.

So... with all these traitors active, only the CIA and FBI have a prayer of figuring out which intelligence operation was compromised by which traitor. A better way of seeing it might be: we don't know if Pollard got anyone killed, but we know he might have done.

And we know he didn't care if he did.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

19 posted on 01/15/2004 4:09:32 PM PST by Criminal Number 18F
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To: Criminal Number 18F
former Stern Gang terrorist Yitzhak Shamir

ya sayyid, Who taught you to hate Israelis and Jews like this ? Fi ai bilad darastaha ?

20 posted on 01/15/2004 4:30:15 PM PST by af_vet_1981
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To: Tumbleweed_Connection
As I understand it, one of the reasons we have never released Pollard is that he never showed remorse (or in any case he never showed enough of it to tell us the names of the other people inside the intelligence community who were telling him what files to steal).

I also wish Israel would quit trying to get the man released to that country. Pollard is an American citizen. It's this country he betrayed. Israel has no claim on him.

21 posted on 01/15/2004 4:32:09 PM PST by Benjo
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To: Criminal Number 18F
...PM and former Stern Gang terrorist Yitzhak Shamir

To be more precise: Yitzhak Yzertinsky was Operations Commander of the Stern Gang from 1942 to 1948. In particular, he planned and executed the murders of Lord Moyne (1944 November 6) and Count Bernadotte (1948 September 17).

You should also mention that he was one of the authors of the infamous von Pfaffen Memorandum of Januaty 1941, in which the Stern Gang offered Adolf Hitler a political and military alliance. In his own words:

The establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich, would be in the interest of a maintained and strengthened future German position of power in the Near East.

Not a very nice guy.

22 posted on 01/15/2004 4:57:50 PM PST by John Locke
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To: af_vet_1981
My my, lots of questions. Alright, I have lots of answers.

  1. Which Israelis are you referring to ?

    The Israeli government, its intelligence agencies, and lots of good Israelis who think the US should cut Pollard a break for spying for what is basically a good country and a dependable American ally. I disagree with that particular position -- although I generally support Israel and understand that in the grand scheme of things they are usually the good guys.

  2. Who do you think their other agents in the US military and intelligence agencies are ?

    Unfortunately, they are many. Before Pollard, they were usually not prosecuted (and after Pollard as well -- they were normally just removed from access, made to resign commissions, etc). If you are suggesting that I think they are mostly Jewish, I don't think they are. They are mostly greedy, and disloyal, which are human failings that know no race or religion.

    The reason that Israeli intelligence needs to spy on us, is that they know that we have information that we don't share with them, which might be very important to the survival and well-being of their country and their people. You might say that they have a fiduciary duty to do this, as do other sovereign nations.

    Given that they have an imperative to spy, they must also be seen by their active spies to be energetic and committed to the cause of captured spies... if they just let Pollard rot, it would be discouraging to any present or future Pollards, and they might need such men. That was the meaning of my post about the "Israelis" (whom I should have defined more precisely and "their other agents."

    Spies for the Israelis are not necessarily Jews (Pollard, in fact, was totally secularized and assimilated, and had no connexion with his Jewish identity, until after his capture). For many years the Israeli secret services maintained that they would not use local Jews because exposure of a spy might cause a terrible backlash on innocent Jews in that nation (as happened in Egypt in the 1950s, and again in Syria after the exposure of Elie Cohen -- look him up). However, they did get caught using local Jews in Norway in 1973 (when taking revenge on the savages that murdered the Israeli Olympians in Munich) and then, of course, there is Pollard, who was a walk-in.

  3. Tell us all about your problems with the world's Jews. Too many, right ?

    I've got no beef with the world's Jews. A remarkable bunch of people, and some of the greatest Americans. My comment "This selfless servant of world Jewry" was a sarcastic reference to the way that the greedy, faithless Pollard has re-invented himself as a faithful Jewish martyr after being sentenced to prison. In the long run, Pollard didn't do himself, Israel, the US, the Jews or the goyim any good at all.

    But I can see how you took my smart-ass comment as an anti-Semitic slur. That's a problem with the net, of course, comments are stripped of the connotative impact of inflection and tone. Seriously, I was putting down one bad Jew, Jon Jay Pollard, not the millions of good ones.

  4. This type of language is typical of Islamic terrorists and their neoNazi confederates

    By this you mean my reference to former Israeli PM Yitzhak Shamir as "former Stern Gang terrorist." Yeah, maybe the Palis call him that, but at least he was a former terrorist as opposed to, say, Yassser Arafat, who was and is a terrorist yesterday, today and tomorrow.

    As far as Shamir is concerned, he was a terrorist in anyone's reckoning: he had Lord Moyne murdered in 1944; he conducted random bombings and reprisal executions; he was killing British soldiers in [then] Palestine while Hitler was killing them in Europe, often by the same underhanded methods. Compare Menachem Begin, who had his terrorist moments, but made common cause with the British to fight the Nazis. (Many of the agents dropped into occupied Europe by the SIS and the SOE were Jews who were recruited through Begin's good offices. These people risked, and often lost, everything to defeat the evil of Nazism. Shamir sat that one out).

    In the end, Shamir did indeed turn from terrorism to politics, as Begin had done before him. But his bloody history made him a polarizing figure in Israeli and regional politics. To point it out may be something Nazis do, but Nazis also believed in the law of gravity; that's because it was a fact, not a Nazi idea.

    And I will concede this much on Shamir: his targets usually had some military or political nexus, even if his attacks routinely violated the laws of land warfare, and simple human decency. While that would not have been enough to save his life at the Nuremburg trials, it is very much more than the Palestinians have done. Their attacks are normally organised and planned in such a way as to maximise their bestial cruelty -- as terrorists go, old Shamir was a gentle one by PLO standards.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

23 posted on 01/15/2004 4:59:01 PM PST by Criminal Number 18F
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To: John Locke
Yitzhak Yzertinsky was Operations Commander of the Stern Gang from 1942 to 1948.

Abraham Stern was captured, tried, and hung for murder, and Yizhernitzky, who took the cover of "Rabbi Shamir," was his successor, if my memory is right. He took the name Shamir permanently when he got a government position (it's a tradition there for government personnel, especially elected officers, to use a Hebrew name).

the murders of Lord Moyne (1944 November 6)

There is an excellent book on the Moyne assassination, I suspect it is long out of print, called The Deed. It is quite sympathetic to the young Sternists who carried out the attack. Shamir, of course, figures in the story. Had the British caught him he would certainly have hung and be forgotten today (the fate of his operatives).

and Count Bernadotte (1948 September 17).

Yeah, that one slipped my mind. And I just wrote that "there was a military nexus on his attacks." Bernadotte was an innocent diplomat.

You should also mention that he was one of the authors of the infamous von Pfaffen Memorandum of Januaty 1941

I haven't ever heard of this (and as you see, I am interested in pre-Independence and War of Independence activity in Israel). It sounds rather unlike him -- he and Begin were right-wing, but in the Israeli context they are like American cold-war liberals... can you provide link or a tip to a book that sources this? It strains credulity.

not a very nice guy

Not in the 1940s, no. When the British executed the Moyne assassins, he executed British hostages. He did mellow with age. Otherwise, he'd never have won election in Israel, IMHO. The Israelis (and AF Vet, I mean the Labour Party, Ben-Gurion, elected Government of Israel!) had a price on his head in 1948, too.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

24 posted on 01/15/2004 5:14:18 PM PST by Criminal Number 18F
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To: Poohbah
As a fellow supporter of Israel, why haven't they been more cooperative in this case? I understand Israel hasn't returned the stolen documents.
25 posted on 01/15/2004 5:18:26 PM PST by truthandjustice1
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To: af_vet_1981
"Tell us all about your problems with the world's Jews. Too many, right ?"

Whoah, those are your words.

26 posted on 01/15/2004 5:22:00 PM PST by truthandjustice1
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To: Poohbah
Here's some other opinion on Pollard:

"His devotion to Zionism, his idea of leveling the playing field for Israel-- that was all invented after he was captured.... Jay Pollard worked for me ... so I have very little unbiased statements about Jay Pollard. ....The problem with Pollard is that he has now reinvented himself ... as a patriot and a hero, which he is not.... Jay is a bad actor."
http://www.jewishsightseeing.com/usa/california/san_diego/san_diego_rotary_club/sd5-16pollard_haver.htm

"Time has learned that one document Pollard is believed to have slipped to the Israelis -- thought to have landed in Soviet hands, albeit unintentionally -- was a huge National Security Agency compendium of frequencies used by foreign military and intelligence services. " [Time Magazine]
http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1101931213-162880,00.html

"In 1984, Pollard agreed to a 10-year plan of espionage against the U.S. for pay. He was to receive $540,000 during the scheme. .... The Israelis never returned the to the U.S. the material Pollard sold to them.... This concern [that Pollard would go to Israel and assist in further exploitation of these documents] was fed further by Pollard's public statements in January [1996] that Israel, by granting him citizenship publicly, should "enter into serious negotiations for my release." [Joseph DiGenova, lead prosecutor] (note, this website bashes Israel... I'd be more comfortable with this document from a less biased source)
http://www.mideastfacts.com/zionpollard.html

there is quite a lot of information on Israeli espionage here: the DOD memo was withdrawn because it rather loopily suggested that Jews were a particular CI threat (they aren't; spies can be, and have been, every ethnicity imaginable). The Stephen Green stories from the Christian Science Monitor are particularly informative. Those stories are alos available on the site above (mideastfacts) but as I said I don't trust anybody who has that much of an axe to grind.
http://www.cicentre.com/Documents/DOC_Israeli_Threat_Memo.htm

By the way, Pollard did work for Naval Intelligence but he had access at NSA. The most damaging stuff he gave up was probably the NSA stuff, although the satellite photos come close.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F
27 posted on 01/15/2004 5:42:24 PM PST by Criminal Number 18F (not liking spies at this address. Sorry bout that.)
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To: Criminal Number 18F
The Israeli government, its intelligence agencies, and lots of good Israelis who think the US should cut Pollard a break for spying for what is basically a good country and a dependable American ally.

I thought you might accuse someone like Ted Olsen.

If you have evidence that the Israeli government, its intelligence agencies, and lots of good Israelis who think the US should cut Pollard a break for spying are financing his attorneys' appeal then you can list it here. I would not be surprised if there were some Israeli citizens who sympathized with Pollard. His information about terrorists may have saved Israeli lives. Nonetheless he betrayed his oath and his country.

Unfortunately, they are many. Before Pollard, they were usually not prosecuted (and after Pollard as well -- they were normally just removed from access, made to resign commissions, etc). If you are suggesting that I think they are mostly Jewish, I don't think they are. They are mostly greedy, and disloyal, which are human failings that know no race or religion.

If there are many you would have no trouble listing them. My experience has shown the real threat to our nation's survival is from Arabists. They despise Israel, Israelis, and Jews. Americans could perhaps turn a blind eye to that but they don't do such a good job protecting Americans either. This was the first significant foreign attack on the American mainland since 1812.

The reason that Israeli intelligence needs to spy on us, is that they know that we have information that we don't share with them, which might be very important to the survival and well-being of their country and their people. You might say that they have a fiduciary duty to do this, as do other sovereign nations.

You argue the case that some of those entrusted with INTEL cannot be trusted to protect the lives of our allies, specifically the Israelis, but not limited to them. The natural corollary to that argument is that they cannot be trusted to protect our lives either.

Given that they have an imperative to spy, they must also be seen by their active spies to be energetic and committed to the cause of captured spies...

The argument falters here. If their fundamental goal is to protect their nation against genocide then they would sacrifice spies from other countries in order to achieve that goal. Losing what little support they still have in the world would not be sacrificed for the life of one Jew who the mob wants to crucify. They have not even retrieved their own citizens from Lebanon and Iran.

Spies for the Israelis are not necessarily Jews

Can you name names and list cases ?

In the long run, Pollard didn't do himself, Israel, the US, the Jews or the goyim any good at all.

He certainly put himself at risk. His e cost other Jews clearances and oppportunities in INTEL because antiSemites and Arabists pounced on his betrayal to purge them. You can thank I simply don't know what lives he saved or took. We can all rest easier at night knowing the Arabists have been in charge ...

By this you mean my reference to former Israeli PM Yitzhak Shamir as "former Stern Gang terrorist." Yeah, maybe the Palis call him that

Maybe ?
Ya think ?

Good thing for us we are evenhanded with the palis ... Otherwise they might target us.

Thank you for your service to our country.

28 posted on 01/15/2004 5:50:36 PM PST by af_vet_1981
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To: Criminal Number 18F
Had the British caught him he would certainly have hung George Washington and company as well.
29 posted on 01/15/2004 5:52:10 PM PST by af_vet_1981
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To: Criminal Number 18F
"Time has learned that one document Pollard is believed to have slipped to the Israelis -- thought to have landed in Soviet hands, albeit unintentionally

Rock solid evidence there ...

30 posted on 01/15/2004 5:54:55 PM PST by af_vet_1981
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To: truthandjustice1
Whoah, those are your words.

Yeah, I'm tired of closet antiSemites. I prefer when they come right out in the open and say how they really feel. This soldier is not one of them but he was using rhetoric that they share so I posed the questions.

31 posted on 01/15/2004 5:57:57 PM PST by af_vet_1981
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To: af_vet_1981
"His e cost other Jews clearances and oppportunities in INTEL because antiSemites and Arabists pounced on his betrayal to purge them. You can thank I simply don't know what lives he saved or took. We can all rest easier at night knowing the Arabists have been in charge ... "

Would you mind reposting this in English? Thank you in advance.

32 posted on 01/15/2004 6:00:32 PM PST by truthandjustice1
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To: truthandjustice1
As a fellow supporter of Israel, why haven't they been more cooperative in this case? I understand Israel hasn't returned the stolen documents.

A Stephen Green story in the Christian Science Monitor says that they returned 163 documents. As an intelligence operation they are in a tough position... for years they denied that Pollard was spying for them. Then they admitted it... or rather, the politicians did, which I'm sure the intel pros opposed.

According to the same Green story, Pollard supplied 850,000 documents in all, many of them stolen to order (one of the first things he provided was an index). Many of these have no bearing on Israel or the middle east... and were only useful to the USSR.

It is possible that the Israeli government or some organisation thereof was selling or trading the documents to Brezhnev-era Soviet spies. But it's also possible that someone involved in tasking Pollard was also betraying Israel and working for the Soviets. The Israelis also busted a number of officials who were doubling for the Russians during the 1980s, and there may have been more who were not exposed.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

33 posted on 01/15/2004 6:02:56 PM PST by Criminal Number 18F (shoot 'im, stab 'im, roto-till 'im -- any way you want to kill 'im)
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To: af_vet_1981
"Yeah, I'm tired of closet antiSemites. I prefer when they come right out in the open and say how they really feel. This soldier is not one of them but he was using rhetoric that they share so I posed the questions."

Respectfully, where has this poster been anti-semitic? If he recites facts, what's the problem? Look, if Pollard sold out his country, and it resulted in harm to this country, what's wrong with revelaing the facts?

34 posted on 01/15/2004 6:04:11 PM PST by truthandjustice1
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To: af_vet_1981
"A Stephen Green story in the Christian Science Monitor says that they returned 163 documents."

Need your help here. Why only 163 documenents out of so many? Help me out.

35 posted on 01/15/2004 6:11:30 PM PST by truthandjustice1
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To: Redbob
They should review his sentence, death is more appropriate for the crime of treason. He "sold" the secrets to Israel. If he was such a hero for the Israelis, he should have given them the information.
36 posted on 01/15/2004 6:18:54 PM PST by DirtyDoc (Been to war once, we should have finished the job. Beer for my horses.)
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To: truthandjustice1
Respectfully, where has this poster been anti-semitic?

Respectfully, reread my comments. I said that he was not antisemitic.

You did read my comments didn't you ?

37 posted on 01/15/2004 6:23:48 PM PST by af_vet_1981
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To: truthandjustice1
Would you mind reposting this in English? Thank you in advance.

Sorry, it was garbled. The computer ate it. My dog ate it. Wait, I don't have a dog. I better retype it.

His betrayal cost other Jews their clearances or opportunities in the Intelligence agencies because antiSemites and Arabists pounced on his [Pollard's] betrayal to purge them. I simply don't know what lives Pollard saved or took. We can all rest easier at night knowing the Arabists have been in charge of our national security ...

38 posted on 01/15/2004 6:26:54 PM PST by af_vet_1981
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To: af_vet_1981
"I simply don't know what lives Pollard saved or took."

OK, I'll accept that. Apparently there are posters that do know what American lives were lost. And you accused them of anti-semitism. Have you no shame?

39 posted on 01/15/2004 6:30:39 PM PST by truthandjustice1
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To: truthandjustice1
Need your help here. Why only 163 documenents out of so many? Help me out.

You can ask Stephen Green. You could ask William Casey but he died two days before he was supposed to testify before Congress.

I don't know how many documents he transferred. He probably told them something before the plea agreement fell apart. I do know that the Arabists would want to share any information with Israel that would save Jewish lives. They have a chip on their shoulder and evil in their heart.

40 posted on 01/15/2004 6:32:27 PM PST by af_vet_1981
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To: truthandjustice1
OK, I'll accept that. Apparently there are posters that do know what American lives were lost. And you accused them of anti-semitism. Have you no shame?

Oh, what American lives were lost due to Jonathan Pollard ?

I did not accuse anyone of antisemitism
yet.

Do you have any shame
or integrity ?

I'll settle for either.

41 posted on 01/15/2004 6:34:15 PM PST by af_vet_1981
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To: af_vet_1981
would certainly have hung George Washington

Well, I suppose I asked for that. True of course ("Why doth treason never prosper?") but I do believe that General Washington (nor, for that matter, the commanders and staff of the Haganah in '48) did not ever murder diplomats to make a political point. Washington conducted his war according to a strict sense of propriety (including the hanging of John André, who by the standards of the day had it coming).

If you want a list of Israeli spies check the Stephen Green story [which has a sidebar on 40 years of anti-American espionage by Israel] and the [withdrawn] DOD memo in my other post. I'm also not aware of any particular targeting of Jews for CI scrutiny, although the DOD memo suggested it [idiotic idea, which is why the memo was withdrawn]. The fact is, quite a number of spies of many ethnicities have spied for nations with whom they have an ethnic connexion. And quite a few have spied for nations with whom they have nothing in common at all.

All you have to do is look at the ethnicity of authors of pro- and ant-Israel letters to realise that Jewish heritage doesn't automatically equal love for Israel, let alone to the point that one would subordinate his love for his own country. Jeez, I would think we were past this Dreyfus era distrust of one ethnic group (and a group that has contributed far more to this country than their numbers warrant).

For a list of spies, overall, see here [defence security service - only up to date through 99, and has some errors].

Here is a 1997 story on an FBI attempt to expose an Israeli spy. CNN. (I gotta say, to find stories like this on the web you have to sort through a jungle of hate-filled fringe sites. Google "Israeli spies" to see what I mean. I'm starting to see why some Jews and their friends get paranoid -- lotsa enemies out there).

To illustrate some of the more recent stuff, here is Daniel Pipes pointing another "Israeli Spy" scandal up as a hoax. And here is Newsmax which appears to be swallowing the same story. Of the two, my experience with Pipes is far more positive.

Here's some stereotyping for you. Maybe because it's duty that requires a quick mind, and Jews tend to be smarter than average Americans, there are a lot of Jews in intelligence work; I've known hundreds of them, and only wish I could tell the stories of the things they have done for America. All Americans would be proud. And these guys and girls, they hate Pollard more than anybody. Except maybe that guy who worked with him in Naval Intelligence -- he really hates him.

I'm aware that the haters single out the Rosenbergs (ptui!) and other spies, and try to suggest that Jews have no loyalty. Anybody with an ounce of sense knows that that's bullshit; you might as well say that Pitts and Pelton and Howard and Nicholson were all spies, therefore we can't trust guys with WASP names. The way to catch spies is by observing the behaviour of individuals, not people's membership in groups!

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

42 posted on 01/15/2004 7:15:23 PM PST by Criminal Number 18F
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To: af_vet_1981; truthandjustice1
Whoa, whoa, whoa.

I know that a bunch of sources and agents were executed in 1985-87. NONE OF THESE WAS AMERICAN. They were foreign nationals working for us -- in other words, betraying their countries. It was our responsibility to them to keep them alive. Thanks to a bunch of people, possibly including but probably not including Pollard, they were betrayed to their own nations. Like Pollard (and the other dirtbags I've mentioned), they were arrested and tried. Unlike Pollard, most of them faced the supreme penalty.

The way the game is played is: you slam your traitor. If you also catch the foreign officer who handles him, you PNG him (if under diplomatic cover, as Pollard's handlers were), or you arrest him (if not). Usually foreign officer, i.e. a CIA case officer caught in Russia, are not executed (you want to question them, and ultimately, to trade them). The US and USSR very, very seldom injured each other's officers during the Cold War.

The individual spies were liable to get the spy's reward -- like Oleg Penkovsky or Julius and Ethel Rosenberg to name two famous cases everybody should know about.

They say spying is an exciting job, but the retirement plan stinks.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

43 posted on 01/15/2004 7:25:37 PM PST by Criminal Number 18F
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To: All
Here is the "other side of the story"

http://www.jonathanpollard.org/

This is Pollard's spin, and it's a lot of BS (for instance they say he "only committed one instance of transferring one document" but that is all he pled to... on the site letters he has sent from Crowbar Motel reveal much more).

But it's only fair to let him, and his sponsors, make their case. They really give poor Joe Lieberman hell... apparently he's "bad for the Jews" because he doesn't wanna spring Jay. Since when did one jailed traitor become the litmus test for a whole people?

Incidentally, Pollard's wife now is not the one that helped him in his espionage and who has already done her time and been released. The pre-arrest spy helper was Anne and the post-arrest spy groupie is Esther.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

PS - on Israeli espionage, somewhere online there's a database where you can see all the Israeli diplomats who've been PNG'd. I recall seeing it but can't remember the URL, sorry.

44 posted on 01/15/2004 7:34:58 PM PST by Criminal Number 18F
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To: Criminal Number 18F
I'm not aware of any other spy for Israel but have read some of the other cases. Just consider this one for a moment with my points in bold.

1996 – ROBERT STEPHAN LIPKA, former National Security Agency staff member, was taken into custody on February 23 at his home in Millersville, Pennsylvania, and charged with committing espionage while workings as a communications clerk from 1964 to 1967. While an Army enlisted man from age 19 to 22, Lipka worked in the NSA central communications room and reportedly provided the KGB with a constant stream of highly classified reports. He is believed to have caused extensive damage to US intelligence collection activities.

According to James Bamford of the Los Angeles Times, since Lipka provided Top Secret information to the KGB during the war in Vietnam, he may have been responsible for the loss of American lives. He is said to have used dead drops along the C&O Canal near the Potomac River and was paid between $500 and $1000 per delivery. Lipka left the NSA in 1967 and stopped meeting with his KGB handlers in 1974.

He became a suspect in 1993 as a result of information believed to have been provided to the FBI by his ex-wife. His role in espionage was confirmed by FBI agents posing as Russian contacts. According to an FBI spokesman, while the government was aware of a major security breach in the 1960s, it had not been able to identify Lipka as a suspect until it had received the additional information. It is believed that Lipka is the young soldier described in the autobiography of former KGB major general Kalugin who tells of a walk-in in the mid-1960s who was interested in money. According to Kalugin, the documents which the soldier passed included Top Secret NSA reports to the White House and copies of communications on US troop movements around the world.

The price reportedly paid by the Soviets during the period of his betrayal was $27,000. On 23 May 1997, Robert Lipka pleaded guilty to one count of espionage in exchange for a jail term of no more than 18 years. On 24 September, he was sentenced to serve a term of 18 years in Federal prison.

You don't read many articles about Lipka or any other American spy very often. I hadn't read his story for awhile. You don't hear the mobs shouting for his crucifixion. It's always about Pollard, the Jew. Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get you.

Even if everything Jonathan Pollard said in his defense were true, he still had two other branches of the US Government he could have gone to without betraying the trust of the American people.

I'm also not aware of any particular targeting of Jews for CI scrutiny,

You may not be aware of it.

Here's some stereotyping for you. Maybe because it's duty that requires a quick mind, and Jews tend to be smarter than average Americans, there are a lot of Jews in intelligence work; I've known hundreds of them, and only wish I could tell the stories of the things they have done for America. All Americans would be proud. And these guys and girls, they hate Pollard more than anybody. Except maybe that guy who worked with him in Naval Intelligence -- he really hates him.

That should read "All Americans should be proud." Unfortunately, as you already know, there are some Americans whose hearts are infected by a hatred of Israel and Jews. They soak up the teaching of their Arab asathitha.

45 posted on 01/15/2004 7:38:17 PM PST by af_vet_1981
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To: Criminal Number 18F
I know that a bunch of sources and agents were executed in 1985-87. NONE OF THESE WAS AMERICAN. They were foreign nationals working for us -- in other words, betraying their countries. It was our responsibility to them to keep them alive. Thanks to a bunch of people, possibly including but probably not including Pollard, they were betrayed to their own nations. Like Pollard (and the other dirtbags I've mentioned), they were arrested and tried. Unlike Pollard, most of them faced the supreme penalty.

The way the game is played is: you slam your traitor. If you also catch the foreign officer who handles him, you PNG him (if under diplomatic cover, as Pollard's handlers were), or you arrest him (if not). Usually foreign officer, i.e. a CIA case officer caught in Russia, are not executed (you want to question them, and ultimately, to trade them). The US and USSR very, very seldom injured each other's officers during the Cold War.

The individual spies were liable to get the spy's reward -- like Oleg Penkovsky or Julius and Ethel Rosenberg to name two famous cases everybody should know about.

They say spying is an exciting job, but the retirement plan stinks.

Yep, but sometimes the retirement is incidental to doing the right thing. My favorite spy is Hannah Senesh.

I've no doubt some people hate her and call her names. I've no doubt they will never see G-d.

46 posted on 01/15/2004 7:43:46 PM PST by af_vet_1981
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To: af_vet_1981
asathitha
asatitha
47 posted on 01/15/2004 7:45:09 PM PST by af_vet_1981
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To: Poohbah
Amen.
48 posted on 01/15/2004 7:53:10 PM PST by Howlin
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To: af_vet_1981
You don't hear the mobs shouting for his [Lipka's] crucifixion. It's always about Pollard, the Jew. Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get you.

True. But no one is trying to spring Lipka, either. I think a lot of the backlash on JJP is that he is trying so hard to get out (and so many others are pulling for him). A lot of people say, "hey, I knew secrets, and I will take them to my grave, so screw this guy."

I think part of the reason Lipka got such a mild sentence is this: he was 52 at sentencing. 18 years (and these days, a federal sentence means, probably, staying in crowbar motel) will take him to age seventy. I bet the prosecutors would rather not try a national security case that's thirty years old, if they can hit the guy pretty hard with a plea.

If he was an NSA guy any American lives he cost were indirect ones, for example by providing the KGB good CI take.

Speaking of pleas, Pollard had one where the prosecutors agreed not to seek life. As I understand it, they didn't but the judge piled on on their behalf. A technicality, but small comfort to Pollard.

Like many gentiles I often wonder if Jews are too quick to blow the whistle on anti-semitism. After seeing what comes up when you Google "Israeli spies," I don't think they're being unreasonable now. There are a LOT of people out there who hate Israel and who just flat out hate Jews. You read their stuff and you want to bathe.

I'll keep trying to find some more references to Israeli espionage in open sources. There's stuff I can't talk about cause it's secret, and stuff that might not be secret but I won't repeat cause it's hearsay -- and there's clearly a lot of people dealing from a point of hostility to the nation of Moses and Abraham, here...

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

49 posted on 01/15/2004 8:23:44 PM PST by Criminal Number 18F
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To: Criminal Number 18F
He is being made an example of, and deservedly so. He is a US citizen and we will NEVER let him go (in order to discourage others). Worse, the Israelis don't know when to shut up. For many people who like me, are otherwise disposed to give them a break, reminding us of this case by begging for his release just p*ss*s us off. Face it, Israel is not the 51st state. They have different interests than we do.
50 posted on 01/15/2004 8:31:44 PM PST by RKV (He who has the guns makes the rules.)
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