Posted on 01/15/2004 2:01:19 PM PST by Tumbleweed_Connection
Oh, what American lives were lost due to Jonathan Pollard ?
I did not accuse anyone of antisemitism
yet.
Do you have any shame
or integrity ?
I'll settle for either.
Well, I suppose I asked for that. True of course ("Why doth treason never prosper?") but I do believe that General Washington (nor, for that matter, the commanders and staff of the Haganah in '48) did not ever murder diplomats to make a political point. Washington conducted his war according to a strict sense of propriety (including the hanging of John André, who by the standards of the day had it coming).
If you want a list of Israeli spies check the Stephen Green story [which has a sidebar on 40 years of anti-American espionage by Israel] and the [withdrawn] DOD memo in my other post. I'm also not aware of any particular targeting of Jews for CI scrutiny, although the DOD memo suggested it [idiotic idea, which is why the memo was withdrawn]. The fact is, quite a number of spies of many ethnicities have spied for nations with whom they have an ethnic connexion. And quite a few have spied for nations with whom they have nothing in common at all.
All you have to do is look at the ethnicity of authors of pro- and ant-Israel letters to realise that Jewish heritage doesn't automatically equal love for Israel, let alone to the point that one would subordinate his love for his own country. Jeez, I would think we were past this Dreyfus era distrust of one ethnic group (and a group that has contributed far more to this country than their numbers warrant).
For a list of spies, overall, see here [defence security service - only up to date through 99, and has some errors].
Here is a 1997 story on an FBI attempt to expose an Israeli spy. CNN. (I gotta say, to find stories like this on the web you have to sort through a jungle of hate-filled fringe sites. Google "Israeli spies" to see what I mean. I'm starting to see why some Jews and their friends get paranoid -- lotsa enemies out there).
To illustrate some of the more recent stuff, here is Daniel Pipes pointing another "Israeli Spy" scandal up as a hoax. And here is Newsmax which appears to be swallowing the same story. Of the two, my experience with Pipes is far more positive.
Here's some stereotyping for you. Maybe because it's duty that requires a quick mind, and Jews tend to be smarter than average Americans, there are a lot of Jews in intelligence work; I've known hundreds of them, and only wish I could tell the stories of the things they have done for America. All Americans would be proud. And these guys and girls, they hate Pollard more than anybody. Except maybe that guy who worked with him in Naval Intelligence -- he really hates him.
I'm aware that the haters single out the Rosenbergs (ptui!) and other spies, and try to suggest that Jews have no loyalty. Anybody with an ounce of sense knows that that's bullshit; you might as well say that Pitts and Pelton and Howard and Nicholson were all spies, therefore we can't trust guys with WASP names. The way to catch spies is by observing the behaviour of individuals, not people's membership in groups!
d.o.l.
Criminal Number 18F
I know that a bunch of sources and agents were executed in 1985-87. NONE OF THESE WAS AMERICAN. They were foreign nationals working for us -- in other words, betraying their countries. It was our responsibility to them to keep them alive. Thanks to a bunch of people, possibly including but probably not including Pollard, they were betrayed to their own nations. Like Pollard (and the other dirtbags I've mentioned), they were arrested and tried. Unlike Pollard, most of them faced the supreme penalty.
The way the game is played is: you slam your traitor. If you also catch the foreign officer who handles him, you PNG him (if under diplomatic cover, as Pollard's handlers were), or you arrest him (if not). Usually foreign officer, i.e. a CIA case officer caught in Russia, are not executed (you want to question them, and ultimately, to trade them). The US and USSR very, very seldom injured each other's officers during the Cold War.
The individual spies were liable to get the spy's reward -- like Oleg Penkovsky or Julius and Ethel Rosenberg to name two famous cases everybody should know about.
They say spying is an exciting job, but the retirement plan stinks.
d.o.l.
Criminal Number 18F
http://www.jonathanpollard.org/
This is Pollard's spin, and it's a lot of BS (for instance they say he "only committed one instance of transferring one document" but that is all he pled to... on the site letters he has sent from Crowbar Motel reveal much more).
But it's only fair to let him, and his sponsors, make their case. They really give poor Joe Lieberman hell... apparently he's "bad for the Jews" because he doesn't wanna spring Jay. Since when did one jailed traitor become the litmus test for a whole people?
Incidentally, Pollard's wife now is not the one that helped him in his espionage and who has already done her time and been released. The pre-arrest spy helper was Anne and the post-arrest spy groupie is Esther.
d.o.l.
Criminal Number 18F
PS - on Israeli espionage, somewhere online there's a database where you can see all the Israeli diplomats who've been PNG'd. I recall seeing it but can't remember the URL, sorry.
1996 – ROBERT STEPHAN LIPKA, former National Security Agency staff member, was taken into custody on February 23 at his home in Millersville, Pennsylvania, and charged with committing espionage while workings as a communications clerk from 1964 to 1967. While an Army enlisted man from age 19 to 22, Lipka worked in the NSA central communications room and reportedly provided the KGB with a constant stream of highly classified reports. He is believed to have caused extensive damage to US intelligence collection activities.
According to James Bamford of the Los Angeles Times, since Lipka provided Top Secret information to the KGB during the war in Vietnam, he may have been responsible for the loss of American lives. He is said to have used dead drops along the C&O Canal near the Potomac River and was paid between $500 and $1000 per delivery. Lipka left the NSA in 1967 and stopped meeting with his KGB handlers in 1974.
He became a suspect in 1993 as a result of information believed to have been provided to the FBI by his ex-wife. His role in espionage was confirmed by FBI agents posing as Russian contacts. According to an FBI spokesman, while the government was aware of a major security breach in the 1960s, it had not been able to identify Lipka as a suspect until it had received the additional information. It is believed that Lipka is the young soldier described in the autobiography of former KGB major general Kalugin who tells of a walk-in in the mid-1960s who was interested in money. According to Kalugin, the documents which the soldier passed included Top Secret NSA reports to the White House and copies of communications on US troop movements around the world.
The price reportedly paid by the Soviets during the period of his betrayal was $27,000. On 23 May 1997, Robert Lipka pleaded guilty to one count of espionage in exchange for a jail term of no more than 18 years. On 24 September, he was sentenced to serve a term of 18 years in Federal prison.
You don't read many articles about Lipka or any other American spy very often. I hadn't read his story for awhile. You don't hear the mobs shouting for his crucifixion. It's always about Pollard, the Jew. Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get you.
Even if everything Jonathan Pollard said in his defense were true, he still had two other branches of the US Government he could have gone to without betraying the trust of the American people.
I'm also not aware of any particular targeting of Jews for CI scrutiny,
You may not be aware of it.
Here's some stereotyping for you. Maybe because it's duty that requires a quick mind, and Jews tend to be smarter than average Americans, there are a lot of Jews in intelligence work; I've known hundreds of them, and only wish I could tell the stories of the things they have done for America. All Americans would be proud. And these guys and girls, they hate Pollard more than anybody. Except maybe that guy who worked with him in Naval Intelligence -- he really hates him.
That should read "All Americans should be proud." Unfortunately, as you already know, there are some Americans whose hearts are infected by a hatred of Israel and Jews. They soak up the teaching of their Arab asathitha.
The way the game is played is: you slam your traitor. If you also catch the foreign officer who handles him, you PNG him (if under diplomatic cover, as Pollard's handlers were), or you arrest him (if not). Usually foreign officer, i.e. a CIA case officer caught in Russia, are not executed (you want to question them, and ultimately, to trade them). The US and USSR very, very seldom injured each other's officers during the Cold War.
The individual spies were liable to get the spy's reward -- like Oleg Penkovsky or Julius and Ethel Rosenberg to name two famous cases everybody should know about.
They say spying is an exciting job, but the retirement plan stinks.
Yep, but sometimes the retirement is incidental to doing the right thing. My favorite spy is Hannah Senesh.
I've no doubt some people hate her and call her names. I've no doubt they will never see G-d.
True. But no one is trying to spring Lipka, either. I think a lot of the backlash on JJP is that he is trying so hard to get out (and so many others are pulling for him). A lot of people say, "hey, I knew secrets, and I will take them to my grave, so screw this guy."
I think part of the reason Lipka got such a mild sentence is this: he was 52 at sentencing. 18 years (and these days, a federal sentence means, probably, staying in crowbar motel) will take him to age seventy. I bet the prosecutors would rather not try a national security case that's thirty years old, if they can hit the guy pretty hard with a plea.
If he was an NSA guy any American lives he cost were indirect ones, for example by providing the KGB good CI take.
Speaking of pleas, Pollard had one where the prosecutors agreed not to seek life. As I understand it, they didn't but the judge piled on on their behalf. A technicality, but small comfort to Pollard.
Like many gentiles I often wonder if Jews are too quick to blow the whistle on anti-semitism. After seeing what comes up when you Google "Israeli spies," I don't think they're being unreasonable now. There are a LOT of people out there who hate Israel and who just flat out hate Jews. You read their stuff and you want to bathe.
I'll keep trying to find some more references to Israeli espionage in open sources. There's stuff I can't talk about cause it's secret, and stuff that might not be secret but I won't repeat cause it's hearsay -- and there's clearly a lot of people dealing from a point of hostility to the nation of Moses and Abraham, here...
d.o.l.
Criminal Number 18F
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