Israeli Rabbis Hope to Search Vatican

Associated Press ^ | Jan. 15, 2004 | Gavin Rabinowitz

[malakhi]

I agree with you, but as "both" Beleivers in the Book of "Genesis" Satan was an angel that was basically kicked out of heaven by G-d for his behaviour right? So he is real by what scripture says in Genesis?

These themes are found more in apocryphal literature (the book of Enoch, for example) than in the Hebrew canon.

[malakhi]

I think I am finally beginning to understand what "chutzpah" means.

If (a big "if") the Vatican actually was in possession of items from the Jewish temple, would it be wrong to ask for them back?

[LN2Campy]

even if the Romans didn't melt it down, the Goths who sacked Rome in 410 AD more than likely did so-- not to mention the mideval Roman "nobility", who, in constructing their villas and palaces, treated the classical structures of Imperial Rome as rock quarries, going so far as to burn marble statues to make lime for mortar.

[malakhi]

There is no organization on the planet with a greater "moral leg to stand on" than the Catholic Church. Get a clue.

Spoken like a true believer. Which is fine. But can you understand why others might not share such a blithe view?

[Ancesthntr]

Or let me put it this way, if in your lifetime a leader who brings Peace the re-building of the temple is done the Jews have there homeland, if this happens in your life time will you have any any thought at all this might be the Anti-Christ "Satan" or will you not even question that in your mind.

Missyme, since Jews don't believe in "Christ," it would be rather difficult for them to believe in the "Anti-Christ." Regarding any potential Messiah, Jews believe first of all that he will be very human. Second, ALL of his predictions must come true. Third, he must obey Jewish Law - and, in fact, he will be able to close gaps in knowledge regarding Jewish Law that have existed for thousands of years. If someone claiming to be the Messiah can do all of those things, as well as have the Temple rebuilt, I'd have no second thoughts about his job description.

Alouette is also right about the Jews' view of Satan. There is no Jewish counterpart to the apparent Christian belief that Satan opposes G-d. He/It is merely an angel that tempts Man. In Judaism, no being or combination of beings could possibly pose any meaningful challenge to G-d, as He is the Creator and Master of the Universe - period.

[Bloody Sam Roberts]

I've always wanted to know exactly what great treasures of history are hidden away in the Vatican archives. I'm sure they have a huge cache of "indiana Jones" type artifacts.

No doubt about that.
I read a book years ago called "The Assassini" by Thomas Gifford. In it are some very detailed descriptions of the archives in the Vatican. A fascinating book.

[missyme]

A wolf in "Sheeps" clothing is capable of anything as we are able to see in our own culture, let alone "Satan" who has a greater power than human beings to "deceive"

So am I to beleive that for some there will be no "DOUBT" in your mind that in our lifetime should we all see this man who fufills the prophecy of Israel and bring "PEACE"
following the commandments you will say "Messiah" has finally arrived?

Like I said if I am alive to see something like this happen, I will not give this person one ounce of creedence
until the 7 yr tribulation is over. If he is stil here doing "Good" I will say I was wrong accept G-d's punishment for worshipping "Jesus Christ" as his "Son" and ask to be part of this new convenant.

But if I am "Right" I will be so happy to know I never gave "the Anti-Christ "Satan" once ounce of G'd's perfect Love.
Would you say this is a fair assesment of the "End Times" for both of us?

[missyme]

Please explain "The Serpent" in the Garden of Eden?

G-d being "perfect" in every way possible has no stain of evil, so if I am hearing you right, there is no- counterpart to G-d? then who was the tempter in the Garden? and why would G-d create a tempter? when to begin with everything he had created in the Garden was "Perfect"

Since at this point there was no "religion" just perfection by G-d interpetation was bound to happen later in scripture, yet there is no deny that evil had crept into the earth? starting with Adam and Eve right?

[Ancesthntr]

The world was never intended to be perfect. G-d put our souls in fragile human bodies and created temptation in order to test the souls. A portion of the Talmud (don't ask for the reference, I don't have it) explains that the souls collectively didn't believe that they deserved to be close to G-d's Glory without earning it, so G-d created Mankind and temptation.

Believe that or not - that is your choice. However, if the world is supposed to be perfect, then there really would be no choice between Good and Evil for us, i.e. no free will - and then what would the point of existence?

[Alouette]

if I am alive to see something like this happen, I will not give this person one ounce of creedence until the 7 yr tribulation is over.

I'm not sure what this "7 yr tribulation" thing is, since I am not familiar with the book of Revelation or the "Left Behind" books, but there is certainly nothing wrong with maintaining healthy skepticism until your heart has no doubts left.

The Jewish eschatology is derived from the Prophets and not from the book of Revelation. But a G-D of love and justice would not punish people who are "tricked by Satan" into keeping the commandments of the Bible.

Furthermore, humans are endowed with free will. This means that "Satan" can't force you to do anything against your will.

[missyme]

Good Morning Alouette,
Having coffee and speaking of G-d first thing in the morning is a "Great Thing")

But a G-D of love and justice would not punish people who are "tricked by Satan" into keeping the commandments of the Bible.

"Okay let me ask you this based upon your above statement"

No man has had an impact on the world other than G-d himself as Jesus Christ has. Billions and Billions of people have worshipped him as the "Son of G-d" starting with the earliest of "Christians" The Jews as in the writers of the "Apostles" If everyone is wrong about "Jesus" than Billions of people have been "tricked"
both dead and alive.

A loving G-d would allow something as this massive as the worshipping of Jesus Christ to happen to people he created and love? Does that makes sense to you?

[ArrogantBustard]

What's really never told is what the Goths, Vandals, and Romans did to the ref after he blew a pass-interference call in the end zone...

[missyme]

I am just basing my statements on what you have written to me.

And since I can only go by what I know the KJV and the Book of "Genesis" from what I understand G-d Created everything perfect it was never his intention to bring evil and good to a "Choice" for human beings.

This info is in the Bible. He created everything "Perfect in the Heavens and on earth and as you say: An angel who rebelled G-d was cast out: That is my understanding when "Free Will" came into exsistence as the serpent tempting Eve, so doesn't that say the angel of "Satan" is real ready at any moment to deceive?

[malakhi]

So am I to beleive that for some there will be no "DOUBT" in your mind that in our lifetime should we all see this man who fufills the prophecy of Israel and bring "PEACE" following the commandments you will say "Messiah" has finally arrived?

If he comes in my lifetime, and he observes Jewish law, and he fulfills all of the messianic prophecies of the Hebrew scriptures, then he is the messiah. If he fails to fulfil even one thing, or if he violates the law, then he will have proven himself not to be the messiah.

[Alouette]

No man has had an impact on the world other than G-d himself as Jesus Christ has. Billions and Billions of people have worshipped him as the "Son of G-d" starting with the earliest of "Christians" The Jews as in the writers of the "Apostles" If everyone is wrong about "Jesus" than Billions of people have been "tricked"

What would you say about the billions of people who believe in "Mohammed"?

[missyme]

Unfortunalty, many people as we both see are very very weak that is why we have an abundance of moral decay.

Homosexuality
Adulterous Affairs
Sex out of wedlock
Disrepectful Children
Drug Abuse
Of course we can go on and on. I don't know one person in my life who does not continually have weak sinful moments.

One thing that does concern me as one of my best friends in the world who is Jewish has gotten more religious as she has gotten older like most people do has a daughter 18 she has sent her to synagogue, Hebrew School everything she can and the girl is out of control, so now it's "SCIENTOLOGY" yes I would say "Satan" can deceive.

[missyme]

From what I understand the Hebrew Messianic Prophecies is the same as the Phrophecies by the messianic view of the Anti-Christ, that is why I have been asking you about all this, because it seems to be a huge "CLASH" one group worshipping what they beleive is the "True Messiah" of Israel and the other group who sees him as the Anti-Christ" Satan himself.

How that may play out is very scarry....

[blam]

"I've always wanted to know exactly what great treasures of history are hidden away in the Vatican archives. I'm sure they have a huge cache of "indiana Jones" type artifacts."

I agree. They probably have the directions to Atlantis written down in there somewhere and don't even know it.

[ArrogantBustard]

Didn't anyone tell you? The Grays, the little green men, and the Men in Black all live there. St. Peter's Square is really a landing pad for flying saucers.

[Ancesthntr]

I am just basing my statements on what you have written to me.

It is quite impossible (at least for me) to convey the knowledge I have regarding Jewish Law (as woefully small as that is, compared to that of real scholars) in a post or two. If you really want to understand it, you will need to study it for a great deal of time - at least a few years.

...from what I understand G-d Created everything perfect...

Yes, perfect according to His plan. However, I don't think that a simple reading of a few verses in Genesis can transmit more than a small fraction of the total information about G-d's plan for the Universe to us mere humans. What if that plan involved temptation? Since it obviously exists, then the plan was perfect.

That is my understanding when "Free Will" came into exsistence as the serpent tempting Eve, so doesn't that say the angel of "Satan" is real ready at any moment to deceive?

Who created the serpent? How could the serpent acquire powers for itself that G-d did not intend for it to have? Satan, an angel, was created by G-d, and also has no powers that G-d did not intend for It. How could even the highest level archangel possibly challenge G-d for power? G-d is, was and always will be omnipotent - period, end of report. If temptation and evil exist, it is due to G-d's will, not Satan's.

Oh, and by the way, the notion of Original Sin (arising out of the actions of old Mr. Serpent) is a Christian one. Jews don't believe that. We believe that each newborn child is perfectly innocent, which is why there is no equivalent of baptism in the Jewish Faith. This dichotomy cannot be resolved - either it is true, or it is not. You can certainly believe what you will - I have no problem with that. However, you are using a base of Christian theology to try to understand Judaism. While the two faiths have some common points, it is simply impossible for a true believer of either to agree with the other faith. I respect your faith, and (to your credit, since you obviously have been tempted to be otherwise) you sound like a very good person, but I cannot agree with your theology - let's just agree to disagree.