Me too, but why waste good wood? ;-)
Posted on 01/15/2004 6:13:48 PM PST by Land_of_Lincoln_John
CHICAGO -- A suburban Catholic priest says donations are down and he wants parishioners to kick in more money. That very church, however, is where the assistant pastor has been charged with sexually assaulting two teenage girls.
NBC5's Mary Ann Ahern reported that when a frustrated parishioner voiced his concerns about the way the church had refused to cooperate in the investigation of the assaults, that parishioner was allegedly ridiculed from the pulpit.
Initially, members of St. Peter's Catholic Church, in Geneva, couldn't believe one of their priests was charged with sexually assaulting the two teens.
The accused, Rev. Mark Campobello,has served at eight parishes in 11 years. He also had been the assistant principal and spiritual director at Aurora Central Catholic High School.
Since Campobello's case came to light, church donations have fallen. The pastor asked parishioners to dig deeper, but one of his faithful asked for answers first.
Parishioner Frank Botche wanted to know, "Who knew what at the parish? When was this brought to the attention of the pastor? Who knew about this at the time and what action was taken at the time?"
Botche, who happens to be in law enforcement, wrote a letter to the editor of the Daily Herald newspaper suggesting that fellow parishioners hold back on their tithing.
"Refusing to financially support a diocese that seems to value the reputation of an alleged sex abuser over his victim appears to be the only way to get the diocese's attention," Botche's said in the letter.
That's when the pastor asked him to recant. When Botche refused, the pastor ridiculed him from the pulpit, according to Ahern.
"I was sitting there with my family, in front of all the parishioners that were there that day" Botche told NBC5, "and I just couldn't believe it."
"(The pastor) went on for 20 minutes, impugning my integrity, basically saying that I was an enemy of the church and that I had committed a violation of the eighth commandment by bearing false witness," he said.
The pastor at St. Peter's would not talk with Ahern on Thursday, but Botche said that the cleric sent a message to all parishioners "by calling me out like this in front of the congregation."
The message, according to Botche: "If you dare speak out and discuss an issue publicly that he doesn't want discussed, this is what he's going to do to you."
Campobello appeared in court Thursday to face charges related to the assaults. He was the assistant pastor at St. Peter's Church in Geneva when he allegedly molested a 14-year-old parishioner.
The criminal case, Ahern reported, is at an impasse. The Rockford Diocese is still refusing to turn over the priest's personnel file and is being held in contempt of court. That part of the case is in the hands of the Illinois Appellate Court.
Prosecutors believe the church conducted its own investigation before authorities were told of the allegations.
"I have never seen a case where an employer has refused to turn over records that a court has ordered," said Kane County Assistant State's Attorney Jody Gleason.
Ahern said the attorney for the Rockford Diocese said they are protecting Campobello's rights because he belongs to a life ministry and the state does not have the right to intrude on a religious entity.
The two teenage girls are expected to testify at Campobello's trial later this year,
As a Catholic, I saw this clearly many years ago. I see no point in confrontation and, fortunately, there is a religious group which goes about its charitable work quietly, is not an institutional blowhard in international political matters and has been getting my financial support for decades: the Salvation Army.
Can we keep the Catholic Church bashing to a minimum?
This thread is not about forgiveness, it is about arrogance and the abuse of power by someone who should know better. As far as I know, the priest who went postal is not accused of sexually abusing anyone.
Just like every other bishop's attorneys advised them on constitutional questions when they were covering up incidents of abuse.
What is legal is entirely different from being candid with people.
They were not protected in Boston, nor Louisville.
This is a losing issue constitutionally, and a public relations disaster.
"Oh what a tangled web we weave,
When first we practise to deceive."
From "Marmion," by Sir Walter Scott.
The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the making immanent (present) upon the altar the onetime only Sacrifice of my, our and your Savior, Jesus Christ, but you already knew that, resist it though you may. Your ancestors and mine attended this Mass as long ago as the time of the Apostles and long before Fr. Luther cast a concupiscent eye in the direction of Sister Katy in the hope (fulfilled) that she would be as eager as he (for unfathomable reasons) to massacre their respective vows freely taken before God.
Mind your own business and go to your room. Take YOPIOS with you.
I think that the Geneva, Illinois, pastor would make a terrific new bishop for Fort Worth which I understand will become vacant in the foreseeable future. They need a prophet down there after all these years.
We in Rockford, are willing to share our diocesan clergy for strong enough reasons. Bishop Doran might be willing to send some priests and seminarians to ease the "shortage" of priests in thoroughly modern Fort Worth (the Rio Linda of AmChurchianism) until the new bishop has things well in hand and has cleaned the stable.
Buy a clue, fadder, and consider yourself fortunate that burning at the stake is currently frowned upon.
It also appears that I was wrong in posting that this mouthpiece disrupted the Mass. He is impudent nonetheless. That his pastor read him out NOT BY NAME is praiseworthy. Had the pastor read the mouthpiece out BY NAME before his wife, children, and neighbors, it would have been MORE praiseworthy and no more public than Mr. Mouthpiece had been in his letter to the editor. Either way, he would make a good bishop for Forth Worth and long overdue. We have many more actual Catholics in the Rockford Diocese, ordained and in seminary. All Rome or Rigali has to do is ask and Bishop Doran will gladly share with Fort Worth to the extent necessary to restore Catholicism there.
As to Bishop Doran, he recently warned that, if an historical landmark designation was placed on St. Mary's Oratory in Rockford (interfering with his authority over Church real estate), he would appeal the designation, close the Oratory, transfer the Tridentine Mass community to another appropriate church and make that church a permanent Oratory. The application for landmark, filed by a well-meaning Catholic county board member, was then withdrawn. Doran understands that, in Church administration, he and not government officialdom is the boss and he brooks no interference.
As to O'Brien, in so many ways and for so many years he worked to extend what Jacob Marley called the chain he forged in life as a bishop. Doran is the opposite and he is not a subordinate of the Kane County Attorney's office, whatever AmChurch modernists may think.
Prosecutors in Florida have been ruled to have no business acquiring much less disseminating the records of Rush Limbaugh's doctors and a good thing too. Likewise, the Kane County State's Attorney has no business acquiring the confidential records of the Rockford Diocese or o its Bishop Doran. Furthermore, the Church is protected by the First Amendment in ways that Rush is not regarding the respective records. Rush is protected by legislative choice not constitutional mandate.
The order relates only to facilitating the prosecution of Fr. Campobello in the matter of the two girls turned women who have complained to law enforcement. Once the actual trial of Fr. Campobello begins, jeopardy as to Fr. Campobello will attach. Unless there is a mistrial or a "hung jury" or a successful appeal with order for retrial, there will be no second trial. That would be the situation (no second trial) in 99.9% of criminal cases. Once the trial is complete (typically about two or three days of testimony and argument), save for those rare exceptions, a second trial would be a violation of the federal 5th Amendment prohibition on double jeopardy in criminal matters. Likewise, if Fr. Campobello pleads guilty as charged (a constitutional right of his) or is permitted to enter a plea of no contest or nolo contendere, here can be no second trial.
Once jeopardy has attached and there can be no second trial, there is no further enforceable purpose of the court's order which will then be moot as to delivery of the papers. The court would then have no jurisdiction to compel disclosure or (for any subsequent refusal to disclose under THAT order) punish for contempt. The court could then not even FIND further contempt because the court would lack subject matter jurisdiction to make such a finding (the nuclear deterrent of all defense lawyers).
That would leave the enforceability of any PUNISHMENT for contempt prior to the resolution of the underlying case of Fr. Campobello. That is what is on appeal and will not be resolved before trial. Theoretically, those to whom the original discovery order was directed and who have already been found in contempt, might still be punished if the appellate cases go against them. The First Amendment will protect against the discovery and contempt orders already entered, in all likelihood. If not, you cannot jail a diocese. You can jail a bishop, but knowing Bishop Doran and his sterling reputation and that all the judges in Illinois, even the State Supreme Court, are ELECTED, and that Illinois is one of the most Catholic states in America outside the northeast (approximately 25%), don't bet the farm on the appellate courts making anything but a discretionary decision "in the interests of justice" to find no jurisdiction or to rule in Doran's favor with or without opinion.
Finally, only a criminal finding of contempt is likely to be even litigatable after Fr. Campobello has been convicted or acquitted at the trial level. A criminal finduing of contempt is in the nature of: Do this by such and such a date or the court will jail you for thirty days (or fine you a specified amount). The OTHER kind of contempt is civil or coercive contempt: If you do not do what you are told by Tuesday, you will be ordered to pay $1,000, and that will double (or whatever) each day of noncompliance or yiou have disobeyed the court by refusing to comply, you are jailed until you comply (thus the person found in civil contempt has "the keys to his own jail cell" and may "purge the contempt by complying). It does not matter whether the underlying case was criminal or civil (in this case Fr. Campobello's criminal prosecution) but rather the nature of the contempt order itself. I do not know the details of this one but those are the general common law principles and probably prevail in Illinois. My fingers are weary. I you need more explanation an want specific questions answered, give me a call. Then I will call you back and save you the expense.
Further, unlike the AmChurch termites, Bishop Doran is a courageous and orthodox prelate and not a spaghetti-spined enabler of queers and other sexual miscreants in his clergy or in society as a whole. These are, of course, precisely the qualities that draw the sinkspurs to despise him and Archbishop Eldon Curtiss and Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz and Archbishop John Myers and Archbishop-designate Raymond Burke and Justin Cardinal Rigali and those now being appointed who will be known as the the Rigali generation of bishops and who will finish off the AmChurch Termite Rebellion once and for all.
The State has a right to intrude on a religious entity to protect victims and uphold the laws of the State.
You might call that civilized: I call it evil and immoral.
Every young person on earth contemplating a life of service to the church ... should be warned.
Go preach to your own because there is absolutely no reason why this well-catechized Catholic or any other would have the slightest interest in your opinions on Catholicism or your imaginings as to the meaning of Scripture. Any potential seminarian who is worried about your opinion rather than the Truth of the Faith ought not go to the seminary and would not make much of a priest. You live in a free country and God gave you free will. If you do not like Roman Catholicism, do not become a Catholic. No law requires that you become one.
Do you pester your next door neighbors when they have asked you to keep your opinions to yourself? Did your parents bring you up to be rude or did you work at it for years until you finally achieved a high plateau of rudeness? Are you a refugee from the Truth of Catholicism or a natural born nannynag? Do you think that Roman Catholics should spend their lives and waste bandspace pestering you? Worship God as you see fit and mind your own business.
Speaking of the devil ... I would refer to your posts and ... rest my case.
Your lawyer cannot be compelled to testify against you on matters within his or her professional relationship with you unless you want him to be compelled. That is a statute, etc.
Your doctor cannot be compelled (see previous paragraph), etc.
The freedom of worship is a specific part of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and is guaranteed by most states as well. The courts have deemed that to guarantee a priest (clergyman)/penitent (parishioner or congregant) privilege such as that in the above-cited cases. This right is VERY old and long predates any of the other privileges named above.
There is a whole history to this in common law dating back to the time before anyone knew that there was anything but sea serpents west of the Atlantic Ocean and east of the Pacific Ocean. There are also statutes as strong or stronger than those covering spousal privilege, doctor privilege, lawyer privilege.
Additionally, within the Roman Catholic Church it has long been the discipline going back well before Columbus that he who as clergy violates the privilege of the penitent is to be defrocked and excommunicated and that a priest should prefer martyrdom rather than reveal such matter to anyone much less government.
You may not like any of this. You may not understand any of this. Regardless, it is true nonetheless. I practiced law for twenty-five years and I'll bet you did not. Stick to things you know something about.
This issue is where the rubber meets the road in church-state relations. No one is disempowering prosecutors to investigate, find, charge, try, convict and punish criminals, clerical or otherwise whether in my Church or in yours, if any. No one is volunteering the Church to do their government work for them either. They can get off their lazy backsides and do all those things without violating the constitution even if it cuts into their enjoyment of happy hour.
BTW, Schwarzenegger seems better so far than seemed likely.
The diocese in question is where I live. The bishop, I am proud to say, is my bishop. I know what is going on here better than you do or could. I am Catholic. You are not. It is my business. It is not yours. I am defending my Church and was minding my own business when you butted in trying to mug my Church from whatever church you may belong to, if any.
You are behaving like those door-to-door pests with whiz-bang religious tracts for one cult or another who think they know better than their targets. They don't and neither do you. Those who are polite ought to be treated politely. Those with no manners deserve to be treated accordingly although real saints may treat them politely. I have a way to go before I get there but Bishop Doran is an inspiration to sainthood without marshmallowness in the mean time.
You have failed to respond to any of the specific points. Summary judgment. You lose.
Child Abuse Reporting Laws Differ by State
This issue is where the rubber meets the road in church-state relations. No one is disempowering prosecutors to investigate, find, charge, try, convict and punish criminals, clerical or otherwise whether in my Church or in yours, if any. No one is volunteering the Church to do their government work for them either. They can get off their lazy backsides and do all those things without violating the constitution even if it cuts into their enjoyment of happy hour.
I think any clergy member or religious organization who knowingly permits a pedophile to prey on children has denied his/its faith and is a co-conspirator. I think the majority of the American people agree with me. I think they will vote in any election, on any jury, to take everything away from those who do this. Defending pedophiles for the confessional privilege is a losing propostion for the Catholic Church. I hope it does not make its final stand over this, defending the rights of pedophiles to prey on children. I think there are enough American Catholics who will not tolerate that position.
BTW, Schwarzenegger seems better so far than seemed likely.
That is gracious of you to admit it. I am also pleased so far.
Me too, but why waste good wood? ;-)
Specific points? I've seen a number of ecclesiastical and legalistic points within a context of personal attack upon multitudinous BlackElk antagonists, real and imagined; but specific points?
I'll apologize in advance for missing them; they were probably lost in surrounding flames.
Please explain.
Defending rapists is not very popular. Defending Saddam Hussein is not very popular. Defending Operation Rescue is not very popular (I did that when I was a lawyer about 1,000 times for a similar group). If the bill of rights were presented for popular ratification today, many would vote against it. All of these things are necessary and it is the government's burden, in our criminal justice system, the highest degree of difficulty, to prove defendants guilty in criminal matters BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT. There is nothing whatsoever to be ashamed of in insisting that the government follow its own rules before it expects us to do so. This means that unconstitutional laws and government actions should be restrained and punished by the courts as a matter of law. Otherwise there is no rule of law. We are, after all, conservatives and traditionally no fans of government as such except insofar as government is absolutely necessary.
I want those pedophiles and their protectors and enablers in jail every bit as much and probably more than any non-Catholic. It is my Church that is affected, after all. I make it a rule never to excuse these things on the expedient ground that clergy of other faiths also molest (that does not excuse priests), that public school teachers do such things or that others do so. I am not in the category of non-Catholic, or of public school teacher or of others. They are not my responsibility until I might be called for jury duty. Since I am a Catholic, the bad behavior of priests IS my business. Each conviction and jailing opens up positions for actual Catholic clergy or bishops and that is a good thing in the foolishly liberal and decidedly non-Catholic AmChurch dioceses.
Both as an American and, more importantly, as a Catholic, I have a duty, however, to see to the equal protection of the RCC and its clergy. The Church has plenty of punishments that will sting the miscreants worse than the mere government could. The bishop in this diocese, Bishop Thomas Doran, is not the typical AmChurch termite and he is not the typical AmChurch marshmallow. Do not presume the accuracy of any reports about him. He is one of seven judges on the RCC's "Supreme Court" in the Vatican known as the Signatura. He is a native of this diocese, was an altar boy at the old cathedral, has an outstanding record and is being attacked by the aging and dwindling ecclesiastical revolutionaries (and their media allies) who are also attacking Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz, Archbishop Eldon Curtiss, Archbishop John Myers, Edward Cardinal Egan and several other pillars of orthodoxy among our hierarchy.
The financial resources of the Church in the United States have prudently been so divided within extremely complicated structures and institutions that you may rest assured that no one could possibly seriously harm Church finances and holdings. If they were to succeed, it is only money. There won't be an elections to decide such questions. The elected judges of Illinois are not looking to alienate the Catholic Church or the Rockford Diocese.
"Catholics" who would harm the Church itself are no more Catholics than were Nestorians, Manicheans or Albigensians.
To assume the priest's criminal guilt is bad enough. To assume that the diocese or the bishop are criminal "co-conspirators" is worse since NO ONE has charged either with anything. The Church does not cease being responsible to itself and in its internal governance just because some lazy prosecutors would find it convenient.
How do you define pedophile? This priest is charged with inappropriately "touching" two girls who were fourteen or fifteen years of age. I have three daughters, 16, 14 and 9. I can do without any priest misbehaving in such a fashion toward any one of them. The alleged misbehavior is nothing for Fr. Campobello to be proud of. Nothing acceptable in priestly behavior or any other adult's behavior but not quite the equivalent of homosexual rape of eight-year-olds as advocated by the likes of NAMBLA. On the extremely rare occasions of misbehavior on Bishop Doran's watch, he has the quickest trigger finger of any bishop in the country. Fr. Campobello was suspended immediately upon arrest. Another of our priests (a great young guy of total orthodoxy) drove his car through the wall of an unoccupied abortion mill and went to work with an axe and was immediately suspended until the resolution of his criminal case. He pled out, paid a fine, did probation, made restitution and, thereafter, returned to active duty. That opportunity will not be afforded sexual offenders of any sort. I suspect that Fr. Campobello is through as a priest even if acquitted by a jury.
By way of analogy and not excuse, in the closing days of your recent gubernatorial campaign, the usual gang of Demonratic suspects made the now traditional California Demonratic sexually related charges against Arnold that he had groped women thirty years ago. To California's credit, the voters are tiring of this act. Did Arnold grab a little T and A thirty years ago? I don't know. I suspect so. Many of us did such things in our youth. That Arnold was accused does not make him guilty. Those who complain now waited an awfully long time to complain. Case dismissed.
Politically, Arnold seems a work in progress. I understand that he has immediately repealed the car tax as promised. That took guts since the Demonrats will want to claim that any fiscal problems will result from the cut. I do notice that there were Demonrats cowed into supporting repeal. He has, I understand, modified and expressed a willingness to cut some school spending. Most of all, I like Arnold's endorsement of Bill Jones for Secretary of State. My biggest concern about Arnold has been that he would wield his power in favor of changing the GOP's national platform on abortion or close out pro-lifers. That fear is somewhat allayed by the Jones endorsement. He is entitled to every iota of credit he earns and, in those respects and possibly others of which I am not aware, he has earned.
Barnacle: Thanks
Amen
God bless
There are magnificent people and accompliishments associated with the RCC, but ... shoveling dirt on the graves of opponents is not one of them.
PS -- Zoroastrians are still around too -- maybe 7,900 years -- and their lore has parallels in Christianlity (devine conception of Zarathustra, the devil tempted him, he ascended into heaven, etc.). This comes from Will Durant in "The History of Civilization" (Vol 1, page 364), where Durant further tells us that "The Greeks accepted him (Zarathustra) as historical, and honored him with an antiquity of 5,500 years before their time." Durant also tells us that the Magi were from the Magian priesthood of Zoroastrianism, and that our modern Christmas was originally a Zoroastrian (cult of Mithra) festival celebrating the winter solstice.
PPS -- Durant's work is great reading.
As for me and mine, we far prefer to shovel dirt on them. ust the kind of folks we are.
I have Durant's set and have read Volume I. It is very good but there were, on the other hand, good reasons like Modernism for Mr. Durant to have assumed the status of ex-seminarian. The Church's gain was also, to a substantial extent, the gain of the profession of historian at which Mr. Durant did very well.
Also, the parallels between ancient false relgions and the true Church established by Jesus Christ are quite often overdone by those who believe in neither but have agendas nonetheless. Astarte, sigh, Isis, snore.......
The realm of heaven is nebulous ground.
A key to that kingdom has not been found.
Know then that …
The human mind is blessed with reason,
And to waste that blessed mind is treason.
Meanwhile, watch the cracks against God's mom! Do you like people being smartass about your mom?
Barnacle:
Re: Your private post, I understood that.
They’ve never been lost. As the first pope, St. Peter once said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth *will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
My brothers and I all use my oldest brother's Lee Progressive 1000.
2. I went through the invitation list to this Catholic controversy party and did not find your name or that of any other preachy reformed buttinsky on the list.
3. You previously were whining about those nasty Catholics who think you are going to hell for not being Catholic and I assured you that, neither by Scripture nor by Tradition, was that so. Bear in mind, however, that being anti-Catholic and ignorantly so is no guarantee of salvation out there in YOPIOSland, whatever it may please you to imagine. Bear also in mind that the fact that you are not excluded from salvation just because some believe that outside the church there is no salvation means only the RCC and not the wider Mystical Body of Christ does not mean that you are making it easier for yourself to find salvation while rejecting the graces that are provided (whatever it may please you to imagine) by the Mass and the sacraments.
4. Most Catholics are perfectly comfortable ignoring your delusions. Many find the persistent, uninformed, self-righteous (literally), preachy nannynagging which is apparently the stock in trade of you and some others of the YOPIOS persuasion to be tiresome, erroneous to the nth degree on matters of difference, impudent, impertinent and on a par with a flea crawling up an elephant's leg with forced interspecies, ummm, congress as an object by way of pretension.
5. Attempting to share that which is most precious to you (your erroneous and uninformed pretensions) with those who know better when they ask that you mind your own business is, well, rude. Do you pester your geographical neighbors like this? Did your parents not bring you up to have manners? Were you raised by wolves?
6. In case you have not gotten the message: Mind your own business and fantasies. Worship God as you see fit. He will probably understand. Leave us alone to our own in-house discussions which are not yours. I don't tell you how to run the storefront church of YOPIOS or the Union band of Jesus Christ Fire Baptized or the 27,000th distinct and "Scripturally" squabbling get-together of Luther-come-latelies (each having claimed to have the real lowdown on the entire meaning of Scripture unlike all the others) or whatever. That is your business. Catholicism is the business of Catholics. You are welcome (upon suitable theological and attitudinal adjustment) to return to the Church of your Christian (and Catholic) ancestors which was founded by Jesus Christ upon Peter (see Matthew 16:18, et seq.) or not as you see fit. God gave you free will and the US Constitution guarantees you the civil right to exercise it. Feel free to exercise that free will as you see fit. We draft no one, whatever your preacher or Jack Chick may imagine.
7. What on earth or elsewhere makes you think that any well-catechized Catholic has the slightest interest in you or your delusions or those of others like you?
8. It is, of course, true that most RCs will not give you the truth with the bark on out of some concern for your "feelings", but someone has to remind you of the foregoing.
Made in Wisconsin, just like MEC. In fact, MEC's are manufactured by a family and I attended school with one of the family members.
Of course, in those days, it was largely flintlocks/black powder.
A google search tells me that Tomas de Torquemada probably belongs to what I'd call the "most evil humans to have ever lived" collection.
People can read about your Tomas at http://www.dreamnation.fsnet.co.uk/torq.html
Vaya con Dios
There are plenty of religious leaders and "religious" leaders who "bring in the bucks" and a certain amount of that is necessary. Our diocese is not hurting financially nor are most parishes not located in dead inner city neighborhoods of which there are few. St. Mary's Oratory in Rockford (the Tridentine Mass facility) is in about the worst neighborhood of all that I know of and thrives. Every parish is REQUIRED by Bishop Doran to have an active St. Vincent de Paul Society and to place high priority on its work. We don't have to kiss Modernist patoot to fund such projects.
The parish or diocese that fails to teach the truth, with the bark on, for fear of losing parishioners or contributors is a cowardly thing with no continuing excuse to exist and a danger to the souls ill-served by such institutions.
The Church that rails against abortion, birth control, novelty, homosexuality and materialism will not suffer for it as you will find out when Fort Worth gets a Catholic bishop. The materialists and Modernists "lost" will simply constitute addition by subtraction.
I have pinged a bunch of Catholics to make sure that they share the laugh I got from that link of yours which seems to be to a website with a Jack Chick-like fantasy role playing game. In fact, Nemesis the Warlock who is another available option on that site bears quite a resemblance to what you would get if you crossed Jack Chick and lavender Justine Raimondo.
To all pingees: check out the "dreamnation" website. Also my apologies for not pinging you all to #199.
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