Skip to comments.Study Says Iraq Insurgents Use Advanced Weapons (SA-16)
Posted on 01/18/2004 2:21:08 AM PST by XHogPilot
Jan 17, 8:14 PM (ET)
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Iraqi guerrillas are using increasingly sophisticated weapons and tactics to attack U.S. aircraft, according to a classified Army study on the downing of helicopters in Iraq, The New York Times reported in Sunday editions. Citing senior Army officials in Iraq and the Gulf who were familiar with the study, the newspaper reported that at least one advanced missile was used by insurgents.
Rebels have used rocket-propelled grenades and heat-seeking surface-to-air missiles, the latter which require a degree of skill, in the attacks. Scores of U.S. servicemen have died in recent months in a rash of helicopter downings in Iraq.
The study found that no type of helicopter is more protected against, or more vulnerable to attacks.
But it recommended changes to help pilots evade ground fire, which the officials did not elaborate on. In the past, the Times said, changes have included flying more missions at night, with lights turned off to avoid detection.
According to Army officials, it was concern about the recent helicopter downings that prompted Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the senior commander in Iraq, to move beyond a standard review after such crashes and order in December a comprehensive study of all downings.
Army officials told the paper that one troubling finding is that on at least one occasion insurgents used an SA-16 shoulder-fired missile, which is harder to thwart than the SA-7 missiles and rocket-propelled grenades used in other attacks.
Officials did not specify which incident or incidents might have involved an SA-16.
The team that conducted the review was headed by Col. Stephen Dwyer, a brigade commander at the Army Aviation Center at Ft. Rucker, Alabama, the Times said. It included about a dozen forensic and weapons experts, crash analysts and helicopter specialists, and spent about four weeks in Iraq visiting the crash sites, taking soil samples and talking to aviators.
"This is a case of our Army coming through quickly with the right expertise at the right place," the Times quoted Maj.-Gen. David Petraeus, commander of the 101st Airborne Division as saying.
A Oct 2003 report by GIS/Defense & Foreign Affairs Daily, Bosnian Terrorist Assets Moving to Iraq, indicated a "mujahedin training facility in Bosnia was now part of a process to send fighters into Iraq".
Further in the article, "It would also reflect that the al-Qaida and Iranian-backed Islamist infrastructure in the Balkans, built up since the beginning of the 1990s, was now being used as an integral part of the war against US forces in Iraq. As well, there were indications that the Bosnian-based Islamists had also been used to support military operations against the anti-terrorist Coalition in Afghanistan.
NATO Stabilization Force (SFOR) officials were apparently aware of the linkage, and, in the second half of September 2003, raided the Muslim military barracks in Tuzla, seizing all of the SA-7 Strela and SA-16 Igla man-portable surface-to-air missiles (SAMs) in the armory."
Next time someone wants to ethnically cleanse some muslims, let's not get too excited about jumping up and sending our boys to defend them....
Are you sure it was SA-16s and not SA-7s or -14s? SA-16s began manufacture in the late 80's and were reportedly exclusive to the USSR for several years.
Notwithstanding the stupidity of these allegations, NATO has addressed them recently, and the lack of any attacks against US forces in Bosnia or Kosovo gives the lie to this BS - if you want to see what happens when Al Qaeda is in the neighborhood of US forces, Afghanistan provides a perfect example - and compared to the Balkans it is night and day.
I note that Al Qaeda related individuals have been apprehended in Bosnia, Algerians mostly, and that they were handed over by the Bosnian government to SFOR and are now currently in Gitmo.
In short, the Balkan connection to Al Qaeda is more hype than substance, and isn't pushed in the service of American interests.
NATO says no evidence of militants in Bosnia
15 Jan 2004 17:36:34 GMT
SARAJEVO, Jan 15 (Reuters) - NATO's new secretary-general denied on Thursday recent media reports that al Qaeda and other Islamic militant groups were present in Bosnia.
"We have no firm evidence that international terrorists are operating, training or recruiting in Bosnia-Herzegovina," Jaap de Hoop Scheffer said during his first trip since taking the position last week...
OK. But where are they getting the SA-16s from?
The Iraqis were using SA-16's against us in 1991:
The SA-16 Iglas is thought to have shot down as many as 12 of the 29 coalition aircraft lost in the 1991 Persian Gulf war.
Aviation Week and Space Technology, Dec 9, 2002
The story here isn't the disinformation directed against Bosnia itself, but the fact that the disinformation is being pushed on FR with such frequency and that it is being swallowed by an uncritical audience.
None of it serves any American interest.
1-Pilfered or illegally sold from Russia
2-Sold to Iraq by Yugoslavia; just do a search for "Boka Star" or "Orao" or "Yugoimport" and see what you come up with--I don't know of anything specific about SA-16, but up through 2002 there were Serb air defense advisers in Iraq and Yugo companies were selling explosives & aviation technology to Baghdad.
Milosevic and Hussein have a history--birds of a feather flock together.
As for the GIS guys, their always anonymous "intelligence sources" have a history of being laughably wrong. GIS said Usay & Qusay were in Tripoli and Belarus just a short time before they were killed in Iraq. GIS had another "intelligence source" talking up the Libyan threat last summer--right when we now know Qadaffi was well into negotiating to give it up to the UK and US.
Needless to say, Iranians will spare no effort pointing out that they are not arabs, and their past bloody episodes involving the Iraqis and the Osama sponsored Taleban tend go against their actively partaking in any guerilla activities directed against us in Iraq. They appear to me instead to be waging a campaign of Mullacide, attempting to gain control of the clergy through which they can apply political leverage.
This isn't to say they're not enjoying our troubles there, but I have yet to see strong evidence of either Al Qaeda or Iranian influence amongst the Baathist Fedayeen, (as opposed to Ansar al-Islam, which has ties to pretty much everybody we'd like to see dead and buried, but, as a Wahabbist organization dependent upon Shiite Iran for its supplies, exists to provide leverage against the Kurds more than anything else and is a dead end as far as exerting real control in Iraq.)
I would note that our security in the Balkans is no worse nor better than it is anywhere else by virtue of our actions - it is better because the locals aren't either out to kill us or supporting those who are, as was the case in Aidid's corner of Somalia, or is still the case in large parts of Afghanistan and Iraq.
What's your source? The Aviation Week article, Israel To Protect Airliners; U.S. on the Fence is weak. "Thought to have" is not the same as "have".
JANE'S INTELLIGENCE DIGEST - MAY 02, 2003
Details of Russian military deliveries to Iraq were leaked to major US newspapers at the start of the Pentagon's military campaign. These revealed that Belarus and Syria have acted as middlemen for the delivery of S-300P missiles. Russia also provided training for Iraqis in their use. In addition, Iraq is believed to have purchased Igla surface-to-air missiles, night-vision goggles and electronic equipment capable of jamming globalpositioning systems.
Makes me wonder, too.
BOKA STAR carried stuff from BOSNIAN MUSLIM MILITARY FACTORY VITEZIT (manufacturers of Composite rocket fuels, explosives)
Mark502inf, you did know that. If you spread disinformation, you have to do it well. You are caught red-handed again.
SFOR interested in Vitezit
"It has been almost a month since inspectors of the Federation Defence Ministry, Federation Ministry of Internal Affairs and Customs Administration completed the inspection of the business activities of Vitezit, a military industry factory. However, it is not yet officially known whether anything illegal has been found or not. This company was an economic giant before the war. It employed 3,500 workers, and its products were exported to around 30 countries around the world. Nowadays, owing to the consequences left by the war in BiH, the loss of market space, SFOR's ban on the manufacture of military products, etc., Vitezit has lost its significance. Even though there is no official information, it is almost certain that the UN Embargo on the Export of Armament and Military Equipment to certain countries (Serbia and Montenegro, etc.) was violated. What will happen to this company, remains to be seen. The fact is that SFOR, in the past sometimes "duped" by Vitezit's wheeler-dealers, is really interested in the results of the inspection. (p.15)
The Supreme Defense Council of the Republika Srpska announced in Banja Luka on 28 October that Defense Minister Slobodan Bilic and General Novica Simic, who heads the General Staff, have resigned in conjunction with the scandal over the recent sale of military equipment to Iraq, RFE/RL's South Slavic and Albanian Languages Service reported (see "RFE/RL Newsline" and "RFE/RL Balkan Report," 25 October 2002). Prime Minister Mladen Ivanic said he hopes the resignations will help prevent any "negative consequences" -- meaning sanctions -- as a result of the arms sales by the Bijeljina-based Orao company. A statement from the Republika Srpska president's office said Bilic and Simic are not "directly responsible" for the affair but that their replacement "will contribute to repairing the international position of Republika Srpska and Bosnia-Herzegovina," AP reported. PM
...AS YUGOSLAV GOVENMENT ADMITS VIOLATION OF SANCTIONS AGAINST IRAQ...
In Belgrade on 28 October, President Vojislav Kostunica chaired a meeting of the Yugoslav government that concluded that the Yugoimport-SDPR company violated the UN arms embargo against Iraq, RFE/RL's South Slavic and Albanian Languages Service reported. Present were Prime Minister Dragisa Pesic, Deputy Prime Minister Miroljub Labus, Interior Minister Zoran Zivkovic, Foreign Minister Goran Svilanovic, and Serbian Interior Minister Dusan Mihajlovic, who is also chairman of Yugoimport's board of directors. Those present at the meeting called for the formation of a commission to look into Yugoslav arms sales abroad. It is not clear what further information Belgrade's investigators might have discovered about the affair so far, AP noted. Belgrade's official line has been that any arms sales have involved only repairing out-of-date aircraft. PM
...AND WASHINGTON EXPECTS MORE...
In Washington, D.C., on 28 October, State Department spokesman Richard Boucher hailed recent personnel changes in Belgrade and Banja Luka but said the United States expects more to be done as a result of the arms sales, RFE/RL's South Slavic and Albanian Languages Service reported. Boucher repeated Washington's assertion that it has "firm evidence" that Orao and Yugoimport violated the sanctions. He did not, however, answer a question regarding recent media reports that Serbia has exported fuel and materials for the manufacture of missiles to Iraq. In Sarajevo, U.S. Ambassador to Bosnia Clifford Bond said on 25 October that the personnel changes are not enough and that investigations must continue, Hina reported. The United States maintains that the involvement of Orao in arms sales to Iraq constitutes not only a violation of the UN sanctions against Baghdad but also of the Dayton peace agreement. PM
...AND ASHDOWN SEES A 'REGIONAL' DIMENSION...
Paddy Ashdown, the international community's high representative in Bosnia, said in Sarajevo on 28 October that he wants a thorough investigation into the Orao affair, which will involve Bosnian central authorities as well as those from the Republika Srpska, AP reported. He added, "We do not know the extent of this matter, but my guess is it is going to be very wide-ranging. It's going to be regional, and it's going to extend into areas which will surprise us." Ashdown did not elaborate. PM
...WHILE BOSNIA BANS WEAPONS TRADE
Bosnian authorities have banned the import and export of military weapons and equipment, RFE/RL's South Slavic and Albanian Languages Service reported from Sarajevo on 29 October. Any such trading after 20 October will be considered illegal because no official permits have been issued since that date. PM
HAVE SERBS HELPED IRAQ DEVELOP A CRUISE MISSILE...
The "Washington Post" reported on 28 October that: "Yugoslav defense companies have been working for two years on the development of a cruise missile for Iraq, according to a document delivered by U.S. diplomats to Yugoslav government officials this month. The allegations were made in a 'non-paper,' or aide-memoire, accompanied by a stern letter to the country's top officials from the U.S. ambassador in Belgrade. The letter asked Yugoslavia to end its breach of the U.N. arms embargo on Iraq, according to a senior Yugoslav official who has knowledge of the U.S. document." The daily added that unnamed "sources within the Yugoslav government said the evidence presented by the [United States]...suggested Yugoslav firms had been working to update Iraq's military arsenal and equip Iraq with a weapon that could accurately target neighboring states. In February 2000, the U.S. document alleges, Yugoimport concluded a contract with a company called Al Fatah for the development of a cruise missile. Until now, Iraq has had access only to ballistic missiles, which are more difficult to control." PM
...AND PROVIDE IT WITH EXPLOSIVES?
Croatian police have found 200 tons of explosives on the Montenegrin-owned ship "Boka Star" in Rijeka harbor, dpa reported from Zagreb on 28 October. Police are investigating the nature of the explosives, which were packed into 14 containers, all of which were labeled as being something other than explosives. The ship's documents do not list explosives. The "Washington Post" reported that, "Police will try to determine whether the powder could be used in Iraq's weapons program." It is not clear whether there is a link between the explosives and the reports about the development of a cruise missile. The owner of the "Boka Star" is a Montenegrin citizen, Marko Balic. PM
For some further assistance in figuring out who in the Balkans is our friend and who is our enemy, you may also want to read about Milos Sarovic, President of the Serb Republic in Bosnia. He resigned over illegal arms sales to Iraq.
Our Serbian "friends" shipped arms to Saddam Hussein right up through 2002.
Since Milosevic's good buddy Qaddafi has been coming around of late, I'll leave out how Yugo was sending arms and advisers to Libya as well.
The fabrication you have posted have been refuted by the US Government long time ago:
WASHINGTON (AFP) Dec 05, 2002
The United States Wednesday distanced itself from a report by a Brussels-based think-tank that made sweeping allegations about Yugoslav arms sales to Iraq.
In an unusual move, the State Department, which had gone public with accusations of such sales in October, slapped down findings in the International Crisis Group's report as inaccurate.
"We cannot endorse their report as an accurate assessment of the situation because it contains speculative assertions and allegations as well as errors in fact," deputy spokesman Philip Reeker said.
He stressed that Washington remained seized of the issue and continued to pursue the matter with Belgrade but said the United States could not share the ICG's call for the international community to suspend aid to Yugoslavia. "Much remains to be done, but we have been encouraged" by the steps taken by Belgrade to address the situation, Reeker said.
In a report entitled "Arming Saddam" released Tuesday, the ICG said top Belgrade officials, including Yugoslav President Vojislav Kostunica and Serbian Prime Minister Zoran Djindjic, "either knew about the sales and did nothing to halt them, or should have known and acted." It said Yugoslavia had violated UN sanctions by selling missile, aviation and chemical technology and equipment to Iraq and called for aid to be suspended unless Belgrade dealt with the matter seriously.
Reeker declined to specify which parts of the report were speculative or inaccurate but noted that Washington had first identified the violations two months ago, accusing the state-run trading company, Jugoimport, of acting as a middleman between a Bosnian Serb factory and Baghdad in the supply of spare parts for Iraqi fighter jets. The Yugoslav government has acknowledged the sale was made. It suspended all military sales to countries under UN sanctions and launched a wider probe into military-related businesses and the defense ministry. The government also sacked a deputy defense minister and a director of the state-run Jugoimport company and closed the company's office in Baghdad.
Mark502inf, your shilling for Muslim terrorists is disgusting.
Serbia destroys one-man anti-aircraft missiles Fri 16 January, 2004 12:54
By Gordana Kukic
BELGRADE (Reuters) - Serbia and Montenegro says its army will complete the destruction of 1,200 shoulder-fired surface-to-air missiles next week to show support for U.S. efforts in combating terrorism....
Mark502inf, Radio Islam needs propagandists. If you need references, just aske here on FR :-)
It didn't pass the sniff test.
The Balkans are a situation where there are so many interlocking interests and skilled liars that it's impossible to know what's really going on without being there. I read every report from that hellhole with more than usual suspicion.
Of course, the DOS has earned that circumspection as well.
noted that Washington had first identified the violations two months ago, accusing the state-run trading company, Jugoimport, of acting as a middleman between a Bosnian Serb factory and Baghdad in the supply of spare parts for Iraqi fighter jets. The Yugoslav government has acknowledged the sale was made. It suspended all military sales to countries under UN sanctions and launched a wider probe into military-related businesses and the defense ministry. The government also sacked a deputy defense minister and a director of the state-run Jugoimport company and closed the company's office in Baghdad.
"Much remains to be done, but we have been encouraged" by the steps taken by Belgrade to address the situation, [State Department spokesman] Reeker said.
The State Department is clearly confirming the Serb illegal arms trafficking with Iraq. And although "much remains to be done", the Serbs are finally cleaning up their own mess and the U.S. State Department wants to encourage them in doing so. About time, don't you think DTA? Although you don't seem happy about it. I'm guessing from the sound of this, that since the the State Department is confirming the various illegalities, that they are refuting the allegation in the original report (which I did not cite) that Kostunica & Djinjic were somehow involved. Other than that, it all still stands--the Serbs were arming Saddam. And thank you for posting the State Department announcement confirming that.
Classic Balkans logic. The Serbs are selling weapons to Saddam = you're a shill for Muslim terrorists. However, speaking of shills for Muslim terrorists, how about the guy who made this comment about the Islamist terrorist attacks on 9-11:
"I'm not saying I'm glad that civilians died, but I can't say that I regret terrorist attacks against the United States"
That was Vojislav Seselj, the leader of the Serbian Radical Party which won the most seatsalthough thankfully not a majorityin the Serbian legislature in the December 2003 elections.
Among other things, such as an indicted war criminal.
He doesn't represent the majority of Serbs.
Thankfully true, but a significant minority--some of whom post here.
Kostunica has Serbia on the right path. They're getting rid of Milosevic's apparatchiks & criminals, cracking down on the illegal arms dealers (BTW, does that make him a shill for the Muslims?) and smugglers, getting the military into NATO's Partnership for Peace, and training up some troops to join the coalition in Afghanistan. Much to the chagrin of the atrocity deniers, he is even exhuming the bodies of 800 murdered Albanians where they were hidden in mass graves inside Serbia and returning them to their relatives in Kosovo.
That last move in particular is not popular in Serbia where many people prefer not to face up to such crimes. And its not popular with some of our fellow FReepers either--kind of impinges on their world view--but in the long run, that and finishing up the various war cime trials might Seselj and his party permanently into the historical curiosity category.
Well done, DTA. That was your first accurate post in, in ... well maybe ever! So have a slivo or do a little celebratory gunfire! Do you still have that tiger carved in the stock of your AK?
As to Osama himself, his financial support of the Taleban and control of the 55th brigade, the Taleban regime's shock troops, can be used to make a fairly good case for Osama being something of a deus ex machina as related to the Taleban - and while there are Al Qaeda members currently residing in countries that would normally just as soon slit their throats (Osama's view of the Islamic Caliphate doesn't have a place for the current regimes in the Moslem world if I understand his intentions correctly) they serve a purpose much like SCIRI did for us until we removed Saddam and shuffled SCIRI back to the 'bad guys' side of the deck.
As to the KLA, they're really no different from some members of the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan - useful in the short term, but liabilities for us and any suitable government in the long term. I don't see them as doing anything less than returning to their roots (organized crime) after their 15 minutes of fame, but I figure it will take some time for the ideological differences between those who joined the KLA because the LDK just wasn't cutting it and those who joined to make money to reduce the organization's headcount and political clout. At any rate, I don't forsee them attacking KFOR - they're not rocket surgeons, but they know that it's either KFOR or the Serbs.
Not too sure we're really diametrically opposed in our viewpoints here - regards.
Even knowing that the Bosnians gave OBL citizenship and a passport hasn't detered Hoplite from his campaign to rehabilitate the Alija Iztbegovic, Nasir Oric, and the rest of the murderous Bosnian Jihadists armed, funded, and trained by liberals in the 1990's.
Look all the way to the bottom of your reference, the Global Security web-site page. Check the table "Air Defence Command, Inventory". All those wicked AAA and SAM systems known in inventory have a number or + associated with them, except the SA-16. The SA-16 has ?. The ?s go all the way across to the present. I challenge you to find any credible source that unequivocally states SA-16s were in Iraq during Operation Desert Storm, or for that matter, the beginning of Operation Iraqi Freedom.
You should find numerous .mil and .gov references to other SAMs and AAA in arsenal or actually engaging US and coalition aircraft from the period of Operation DESERT STORM through Operation PROVIDE COMFORT (OPC), OPC II, Operation DESERT STRIKE, Operation DESERT FOX, Operation SOUTHERN WATCH and the clearly described blow-by-blow Operation NORTHERN WATCH engagements, and into Operation IRAQI FREEDOM. Please notify us all when you find one that lists SA-13 in Iraq directly, without using an intermediate source. You cannot find what was not there.
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