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Study Says Iraq Insurgents Use Advanced Weapons (SA-16)
Reuters ^ | Jan 17, 2004 | Reuters

Posted on 01/18/2004 2:21:08 AM PST by XHogPilot

Jan 17, 8:14 PM (ET)

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Iraqi guerrillas are using increasingly sophisticated weapons and tactics to attack U.S. aircraft, according to a classified Army study on the downing of helicopters in Iraq, The New York Times reported in Sunday editions. Citing senior Army officials in Iraq and the Gulf who were familiar with the study, the newspaper reported that at least one advanced missile was used by insurgents.

Rebels have used rocket-propelled grenades and heat-seeking surface-to-air missiles, the latter which require a degree of skill, in the attacks. Scores of U.S. servicemen have died in recent months in a rash of helicopter downings in Iraq.

The study found that no type of helicopter is more protected against, or more vulnerable to attacks.

But it recommended changes to help pilots evade ground fire, which the officials did not elaborate on. In the past, the Times said, changes have included flying more missions at night, with lights turned off to avoid detection.

According to Army officials, it was concern about the recent helicopter downings that prompted Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the senior commander in Iraq, to move beyond a standard review after such crashes and order in December a comprehensive study of all downings.

Army officials told the paper that one troubling finding is that on at least one occasion insurgents used an SA-16 shoulder-fired missile, which is harder to thwart than the SA-7 missiles and rocket-propelled grenades used in other attacks.

Officials did not specify which incident or incidents might have involved an SA-16.

The team that conducted the review was headed by Col. Stephen Dwyer, a brigade commander at the Army Aviation Center at Ft. Rucker, Alabama, the Times said. It included about a dozen forensic and weapons experts, crash analysts and helicopter specialists, and spent about four weeks in Iraq visiting the crash sites, taking soil samples and talking to aviators.

"This is a case of our Army coming through quickly with the right expertise at the right place," the Times quoted Maj.-Gen. David Petraeus, commander of the 101st Airborne Division as saying.


TOPICS: Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: balkans; balkansalqaeda; bosnia; campaignfinance; guerrillas; igla; insurgents; iraq; redeye; sa14; sa16; sa7; saddam; sam; stinger; twa800; weapons
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The use of the highly capable SA-16 SAM in Iraq is unprecedented and telling. The SA-16 never had the uncontrolled proliferation of the SA-7 or even SA-14. Until now, it was thought to only be in the government arsenals of mostly Soviet Union states and Yugoslavia.

A Oct 2003 report by GIS/Defense & Foreign Affairs Daily, Bosnian Terrorist Assets Moving to Iraq, indicated a "mujahedin training facility in Bosnia was now part of a process to send fighters into Iraq".
Further in the article, "It would also reflect that the al-Qaida and Iranian-backed Islamist infrastructure in the Balkans, built up since the beginning of the 1990s, was now being used as an integral part of the war against US forces in Iraq. As well, there were indications that the Bosnian-based Islamists had also been used to support military operations against the anti-terrorist Coalition in Afghanistan.
NATO Stabilization Force (SFOR) officials were apparently aware of the linkage, and, in the second half of September 2003, raided the Muslim military barracks in Tuzla, seizing all of the SA-7 Strela and SA-16 Igla man-portable surface-to-air missiles (SAMs) in the armory."


SA-16 Surface to Air Missile

1 posted on 01/18/2004 2:21:10 AM PST by XHogPilot
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To: XHogPilot
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/sa-16.htm
2 posted on 01/18/2004 2:26:00 AM PST by risk
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To: XHogPilot
These would be the same Bosnian Muslims that U.S. forces moved to save from ethnic cleansing.

Next time someone wants to ethnically cleanse some muslims, let's not get too excited about jumping up and sending our boys to defend them....

3 posted on 01/18/2004 2:26:22 AM PST by Gerasimov (Oh calm down ... it was a joke. **mostly**)
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To: XHogPilot
Something tells me we are gonna have to have a rat killin in the Balkans.
4 posted on 01/18/2004 2:31:02 AM PST by eastforker (The color of justice is green,just ask Johny Cochran!)
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To: XHogPilot
The proliferation of more sophisticated SAMs coming from the Balkans only exacerbates the need to take down these Mid-East dictatorships. Sooner or later they will procure WMDs on the black market.
5 posted on 01/18/2004 3:11:53 AM PST by CruisinAround
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To: DTA
expected?
6 posted on 01/18/2004 3:14:20 AM PST by getgoing
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To: Hoplite
Oh, here's one for your scrapbook bub.
7 posted on 01/18/2004 3:15:11 AM PST by Lion in Winter
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To: Gerasimov
weasly clark just loves those guys!
8 posted on 01/18/2004 3:16:31 AM PST by Lion in Winter
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To: knighthawk; dennisw; Sabertooth; RadioAstronomer; Libertina; Thinkin' Gal
Bad news with a capital B and that stands for Bosnian Terrorists...I wish I could say this wasn't inevitable...If you watch the EXCELLENT Foreign Legion based sniper movie, "The Savior" with Dennis Quaid you get to see the red headbands of the islamists sneaking around in Bosnia...I'm creeped out, now!
9 posted on 01/18/2004 4:05:45 AM PST by sleavelessinseattle (Militant Islam is a political movement NOT a religious one...What does it take to wake up the media?)
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To: Boot Hill
Bonk.

Another one.
10 posted on 01/18/2004 4:58:58 AM PST by Carry_Okie (There are people in power who are truly gutless.)
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To: risk
And everyone wonders why France,Germany and Russia would not join in the war. They probably supplied this weapons and didnt want it to get out plus they didnt want their troops going up against these weapons.
Yes Mr. and Mrs. Democrat we need all this support from the UN when it is the UN that is trying to overthrow America with your help.
If you want a dictatorship and the UN to run America vote DEMOCRAT!
11 posted on 01/18/2004 5:06:13 AM PST by gunnedah
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To: XHogPilot
The FMLN of El Salvador used a few SA-16 missiles during it's war against the Salvadorian government back in the '80s and early '90s.
12 posted on 01/18/2004 6:41:01 AM PST by Jacob Kell
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To: Jacob Kell
"The FMLN of El Salvador used a few SA-16 missiles during it's war against the Salvadorian government back in the '80s and early '90s."

Are you sure it was SA-16s and not SA-7s or -14s? SA-16s began manufacture in the late 80's and were reportedly exclusive to the USSR for several years.

13 posted on 01/18/2004 6:49:15 AM PST by XHogPilot
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To: XHogPilot
Who's selling this stuff and to whom? It is Iraqi's who's buying them or someone else? Obviously if 29 trucks with weapons can brazonly cross over from Iran, who knows what it getting across. Wake up Bush, nothing is stopping the same from crossing our open borders either.
14 posted on 01/18/2004 7:01:12 AM PST by mtbopfuyn
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To: Gerasimov
I whole heartedly agree with you. Why was Clinton so eager to help forces that have shown nothing but contempt and religious intolerance for others? I think it is because he was a pompous arse, and he and his "intellectual" anti-American buddies thought they knew better than what history taught. Plus, he had the Lewinsky scandal to distract the populace from.
15 posted on 01/18/2004 7:05:50 AM PST by FreeAtlanta
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To: sleavelessinseattle
Moring Sleaveless! Looks like about the only ones who don't take war seriously are the liberals in America and Europe... Our enemies seem quite a bit less "conflicted." Funny, unlike Dan Rather and the mainstream media - i bet they can even tell you which "side" they are on...
16 posted on 01/18/2004 10:07:36 AM PST by Libertina (CPAC - Conservative Political Action Conference - Jan 22-24, DC http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f)
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To: Lion in Winter
So let me get this straight - Al Qaeda, who has supposedly been co-located with our forces in Bosnia since 1996 and Kosovo and Albania since 1999, is sending fighters and equipment from the Balkans, where attacking US forces would be easy for them, to Iraq, where they are as fish out of water due to cultural and linguistic differences with the locals.

Notwithstanding the stupidity of these allegations, NATO has addressed them recently, and the lack of any attacks against US forces in Bosnia or Kosovo gives the lie to this BS - if you want to see what happens when Al Qaeda is in the neighborhood of US forces, Afghanistan provides a perfect example - and compared to the Balkans it is night and day.

I note that Al Qaeda related individuals have been apprehended in Bosnia, Algerians mostly, and that they were handed over by the Bosnian government to SFOR and are now currently in Gitmo.

In short, the Balkan connection to Al Qaeda is more hype than substance, and isn't pushed in the service of American interests.

17 posted on 01/18/2004 10:37:56 AM PST by Hoplite
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To: Hoplite
From http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L15672143.htm :

NATO says no evidence of militants in Bosnia

15 Jan 2004 17:36:34 GMT

SARAJEVO, Jan 15 (Reuters) - NATO's new secretary-general denied on Thursday recent media reports that al Qaeda and other Islamic militant groups were present in Bosnia.

"We have no firm evidence that international terrorists are operating, training or recruiting in Bosnia-Herzegovina," Jaap de Hoop Scheffer said during his first trip since taking the position last week...

OK. But where are they getting the SA-16s from?

18 posted on 01/18/2004 10:56:52 AM PST by Screaming_Gerbil (Let's Roll...)
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To: Screaming_Gerbil
From the Russians?

The Iraqis were using SA-16's against us in 1991:

The SA-16 Iglas is thought to have shot down as many as 12 of the 29 coalition aircraft lost in the 1991 Persian Gulf war.
Aviation Week and Space Technology, Dec 9, 2002

The story here isn't the disinformation directed against Bosnia itself, but the fact that the disinformation is being pushed on FR with such frequency and that it is being swallowed by an uncritical audience.

None of it serves any American interest.

19 posted on 01/18/2004 11:44:10 AM PST by Hoplite
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Comment #20 Removed by Moderator

To: Hoplite
So let me get THIS straight...If you don't see it AND NATO says it doesn't exist, we can go to condition green and open the borders again?
21 posted on 01/18/2004 12:08:35 PM PST by sleavelessinseattle (Militant Islam is a political movement NOT a religious one...What does it take to wake up the media?)
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To: sleavelessinseattle
No, get THIS straight - we're monitoring the situation in Bosnia now and shall continue to do so, and the reality on the ground doesn't match what's being portrayed here on FR.
22 posted on 01/18/2004 12:12:11 PM PST by Hoplite
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To: XHogPilot
Mr. A-10 Driver, actually, the Iraqis had SA-16s in the first Gulf War. Don't know how many were left over, but the most likely explanation is that that's where they came from. Other explanations are:

1-Pilfered or illegally sold from Russia

2-Sold to Iraq by Yugoslavia; just do a search for "Boka Star" or "Orao" or "Yugoimport" and see what you come up with--I don't know of anything specific about SA-16, but up through 2002 there were Serb air defense advisers in Iraq and Yugo companies were selling explosives & aviation technology to Baghdad.

Milosevic and Hussein have a history--birds of a feather flock together.

As for the GIS guys, their always anonymous "intelligence sources" have a history of being laughably wrong. GIS said Usay & Qusay were in Tripoli and Belarus just a short time before they were killed in Iraq. GIS had another "intelligence source" talking up the Libyan threat last summer--right when we now know Qadaffi was well into negotiating to give it up to the UK and US.

23 posted on 01/18/2004 1:48:40 PM PST by mark502inf
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To: XHogPilot
Most of their MANPADS were indeed SA-7s and 14s, but near the end of the war, they obtained a few SA-16s. "Strategy and Tactics of the Salvadorian FMLN Guerillas", by David E. Spencer and Jose Angel Moroni Bracamonte states that: "Soon thereafter, the FMLN received the SA-14 and by the end of the war even some SA-16s". referring to a crash of a Sandinista plane that was carrrying a load of SA-7s and a Redeye that the Sandinistas captured from the Contras. Also, the Bush Sr. Administration stated in 1991 "We regret that the FMLN's continued introduction of sophisticated weapons, including
SA-16 surface-to-air missiles into El Salvador and their failure to agree ..." This is only part of the statement, but you get the idea. I can't help but wonder, if the FMLN had SA-16s as well as RPG-18s, did they ever have any AK-74s?
24 posted on 01/18/2004 3:28:10 PM PST by Jacob Kell
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To: Hoplite
"So let me get this straight - Al Qaeda, who has supposedly been co-located with our forces in Bosnia since 1996 and Kosovo and Albania since 1999, is sending fighters and equipment from the Balkans, where attacking US forces would be easy for them, to Iraq, where they are as fish out of water due to cultural and linguistic differences with the locals."

I think that if that is true, the AQ members would be ethnically Arab or at least the majority of them...namely from the ranks of the Mujahideen who came over in the '90s. Again, if that is true. In other words, the cultural and linguistic difference wouldn't matter relatively much and I am not saying that Arabs are all the same.
25 posted on 01/18/2004 3:35:01 PM PST by Jacob Kell
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To: Hoplite
"and the lack of any attacks against US forces in Bosnia or Kosovo gives the lie to this BS"

Probably because our security is good, and/or we are lucky so far.

"you want to see what happens when Al Qaeda is in the neighborhood of US forces, Afghanistan provides a perfect example - and compared to the Balkans it is night and day."

AQ supported forces, maybe some actual AQ gave us a pretty nasty surprise over in Somalia, so DO NOT underestimate them.

"I note that Al Qaeda related individuals have been apprehended in Bosnia, Algerians mostly, and that they were handed over by the Bosnian government to SFOR and are now currently in Gitmo."

Of course, however, I never liked IZetbegovic, though I'm certainly no fan of Milosevic, Tudjman, or Karadzic, either. it was Izetbegovic's government that let the bastards in the door in the first place. Thank God there is a moderate government in Sarajevo.

26 posted on 01/18/2004 3:39:25 PM PST by Jacob Kell
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To: mark502inf
Thanks for the info.
27 posted on 01/18/2004 4:51:23 PM PST by XHogPilot
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To: Jacob Kell
The majority of the Mujaahadeen in Bosnia were affiliated with Iran, and we took steps to address their influence during and after the Dayton process.

Needless to say, Iranians will spare no effort pointing out that they are not arabs, and their past bloody episodes involving the Iraqis and the Osama sponsored Taleban tend go against their actively partaking in any guerilla activities directed against us in Iraq. They appear to me instead to be waging a campaign of Mullacide, attempting to gain control of the clergy through which they can apply political leverage.

This isn't to say they're not enjoying our troubles there, but I have yet to see strong evidence of either Al Qaeda or Iranian influence amongst the Baathist Fedayeen, (as opposed to Ansar al-Islam, which has ties to pretty much everybody we'd like to see dead and buried, but, as a Wahabbist organization dependent upon Shiite Iran for its supplies, exists to provide leverage against the Kurds more than anything else and is a dead end as far as exerting real control in Iraq.)

I would note that our security in the Balkans is no worse nor better than it is anywhere else by virtue of our actions - it is better because the locals aren't either out to kill us or supporting those who are, as was the case in Aidid's corner of Somalia, or is still the case in large parts of Afghanistan and Iraq.

28 posted on 01/18/2004 4:55:42 PM PST by Hoplite
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To: mark502inf
Mr. A-10 Driver, actually, the Iraqis had SA-16s in the first Gulf War

What's your source? The Aviation Week article, Israel To Protect Airliners; U.S. on the Fence is weak. "Thought to have" is not the same as "have".

29 posted on 01/18/2004 5:30:04 PM PST by XHogPilot
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To: Screaming_Gerbil
OK. But where are they getting the SA-16s from?

JANE'S INTELLIGENCE DIGEST - MAY 02, 2003
Details of Russian military deliveries to Iraq were leaked to major US newspapers at the start of the Pentagon's military campaign. These revealed that Belarus and Syria have acted as middlemen for the delivery of S-300P missiles. Russia also provided training for Iraqis in their use. In addition, Iraq is believed to have purchased Igla surface-to-air missiles, night-vision goggles and electronic equipment capable of jamming globalpositioning systems.

Makes me wonder, too.

30 posted on 01/18/2004 6:02:48 PM PST by XHogPilot
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To: mark502inf; XHogPilot; getgoing
>>>>>2-Sold to Iraq by Yugoslavia; just do a search for "Boka Star" or "Orao" or "Yugoimport"<<<<<

BOKA STAR carried stuff from BOSNIAN MUSLIM MILITARY FACTORY VITEZIT (manufacturers of Composite rocket fuels, explosives)

Mark502inf, you did know that. If you spread disinformation, you have to do it well. You are caught red-handed again.

ABOUT VITEZIT (NATO website):

SFOR interested in Vitezit

"It has been almost a month since inspectors of the Federation Defence Ministry, Federation Ministry of Internal Affairs and Customs Administration completed the inspection of the business activities of Vitezit, a military industry factory. However, it is not yet officially known whether anything illegal has been found or not. This company was an economic giant before the war. It employed 3,500 workers, and its products were exported to around 30 countries around the world. Nowadays, owing to the consequences left by the war in BiH, the loss of market space, SFOR's ban on the manufacture of military products, etc., Vitezit has lost its significance. Even though there is no official information, it is almost certain that the UN Embargo on the Export of Armament and Military Equipment to certain countries (Serbia and Montenegro, etc.) was violated. What will happen to this company, remains to be seen. The fact is that SFOR, in the past sometimes "duped" by Vitezit's wheeler-dealers, is really interested in the results of the inspection. (p.15)

31 posted on 01/18/2004 10:38:55 PM PST by DTA (you ain't seen nothing yet)
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To: DTA
TOP BOSNIAN SERB DEFENSE OFFICIALS OUSTED OVER IRAQ ARMS SCANDAL...

The Supreme Defense Council of the Republika Srpska announced in Banja Luka on 28 October that Defense Minister Slobodan Bilic and General Novica Simic, who heads the General Staff, have resigned in conjunction with the scandal over the recent sale of military equipment to Iraq, RFE/RL's South Slavic and Albanian Languages Service reported (see "RFE/RL Newsline" and "RFE/RL Balkan Report," 25 October 2002). Prime Minister Mladen Ivanic said he hopes the resignations will help prevent any "negative consequences" -- meaning sanctions -- as a result of the arms sales by the Bijeljina-based Orao company. A statement from the Republika Srpska president's office said Bilic and Simic are not "directly responsible" for the affair but that their replacement "will contribute to repairing the international position of Republika Srpska and Bosnia-Herzegovina," AP reported. PM

...AS YUGOSLAV GOVENMENT ADMITS VIOLATION OF SANCTIONS AGAINST IRAQ...

In Belgrade on 28 October, President Vojislav Kostunica chaired a meeting of the Yugoslav government that concluded that the Yugoimport-SDPR company violated the UN arms embargo against Iraq, RFE/RL's South Slavic and Albanian Languages Service reported. Present were Prime Minister Dragisa Pesic, Deputy Prime Minister Miroljub Labus, Interior Minister Zoran Zivkovic, Foreign Minister Goran Svilanovic, and Serbian Interior Minister Dusan Mihajlovic, who is also chairman of Yugoimport's board of directors. Those present at the meeting called for the formation of a commission to look into Yugoslav arms sales abroad. It is not clear what further information Belgrade's investigators might have discovered about the affair so far, AP noted. Belgrade's official line has been that any arms sales have involved only repairing out-of-date aircraft. PM

...AND WASHINGTON EXPECTS MORE...

In Washington, D.C., on 28 October, State Department spokesman Richard Boucher hailed recent personnel changes in Belgrade and Banja Luka but said the United States expects more to be done as a result of the arms sales, RFE/RL's South Slavic and Albanian Languages Service reported. Boucher repeated Washington's assertion that it has "firm evidence" that Orao and Yugoimport violated the sanctions. He did not, however, answer a question regarding recent media reports that Serbia has exported fuel and materials for the manufacture of missiles to Iraq. In Sarajevo, U.S. Ambassador to Bosnia Clifford Bond said on 25 October that the personnel changes are not enough and that investigations must continue, Hina reported. The United States maintains that the involvement of Orao in arms sales to Iraq constitutes not only a violation of the UN sanctions against Baghdad but also of the Dayton peace agreement. PM

...AND ASHDOWN SEES A 'REGIONAL' DIMENSION...

Paddy Ashdown, the international community's high representative in Bosnia, said in Sarajevo on 28 October that he wants a thorough investigation into the Orao affair, which will involve Bosnian central authorities as well as those from the Republika Srpska, AP reported. He added, "We do not know the extent of this matter, but my guess is it is going to be very wide-ranging. It's going to be regional, and it's going to extend into areas which will surprise us." Ashdown did not elaborate. PM

...WHILE BOSNIA BANS WEAPONS TRADE

Bosnian authorities have banned the import and export of military weapons and equipment, RFE/RL's South Slavic and Albanian Languages Service reported from Sarajevo on 29 October. Any such trading after 20 October will be considered illegal because no official permits have been issued since that date. PM

HAVE SERBS HELPED IRAQ DEVELOP A CRUISE MISSILE...

The "Washington Post" reported on 28 October that: "Yugoslav defense companies have been working for two years on the development of a cruise missile for Iraq, according to a document delivered by U.S. diplomats to Yugoslav government officials this month. The allegations were made in a 'non-paper,' or aide-memoire, accompanied by a stern letter to the country's top officials from the U.S. ambassador in Belgrade. The letter asked Yugoslavia to end its breach of the U.N. arms embargo on Iraq, according to a senior Yugoslav official who has knowledge of the U.S. document." The daily added that unnamed "sources within the Yugoslav government said the evidence presented by the [United States]...suggested Yugoslav firms had been working to update Iraq's military arsenal and equip Iraq with a weapon that could accurately target neighboring states. In February 2000, the U.S. document alleges, Yugoimport concluded a contract with a company called Al Fatah for the development of a cruise missile. Until now, Iraq has had access only to ballistic missiles, which are more difficult to control." PM

...AND PROVIDE IT WITH EXPLOSIVES?

Croatian police have found 200 tons of explosives on the Montenegrin-owned ship "Boka Star" in Rijeka harbor, dpa reported from Zagreb on 28 October. Police are investigating the nature of the explosives, which were packed into 14 containers, all of which were labeled as being something other than explosives. The ship's documents do not list explosives. The "Washington Post" reported that, "Police will try to determine whether the powder could be used in Iraq's weapons program." It is not clear whether there is a link between the explosives and the reports about the development of a cruise missile. The owner of the "Boka Star" is a Montenegrin citizen, Marko Balic. PM

32 posted on 01/19/2004 4:14:16 AM PST by mark502inf
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To: DTA; Lion in Winter; getgoing; Gerasimov; Carry_Okie
DTA, should have included the link to the info in post 32.

For some further assistance in figuring out who in the Balkans is our friend and who is our enemy, you may also want to read about Milos Sarovic, President of the Serb Republic in Bosnia. He resigned over illegal arms sales to Iraq.

Our Serbian "friends" shipped arms to Saddam Hussein right up through 2002.

Since Milosevic's good buddy Qaddafi has been coming around of late, I'll leave out how Yugo was sending arms and advisers to Libya as well.

33 posted on 01/19/2004 5:53:54 AM PST by mark502inf
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To: mark502inf
Oh the tangled web...
34 posted on 01/19/2004 6:47:46 AM PST by Carry_Okie (There are people in power who are truly evil.)
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To: Hoplite
The Mujahideen were largely affiliated with Iran, but they weren't from Iran. There were some Iranian Revolutionary Guards (or Pasdaran) present, they were the ones from Iran. The Mujahideen, as opposed to the Pasdaran, were largely Arab. There were no doubt at least some AQ present among them. Osama sponsored the Taliban, but that doesn't mean he shared their virulently anti-Shia views. In fact, there are AQ present in Iran, just ask Angelus Errare. I think that Osama may have tried to mediate between the Taliban and Iran, certainly the Iran Taliban hostility may have prevented his AQ from carrying out attacks in the past. I never said there was strong evidence of AQ or Iranian ties to the Baathists.

"I would note that our security in the Balkans is no worse nor better than it is anywhere else by virtue of our actions - it is better because the locals aren't either out to kill us or supporting those who are, as was the case in Aidid's corner of Somalia, or is still the case in large parts of Afghanistan and Iraq."

I don't know about the Balkans. People have historically been nice to us for a while and then turn around and stab us in the back. Anyways, I don't think the KLA could care less about democracy, or Western values. I don't trust the KLA as far as I could urinate.
35 posted on 01/19/2004 8:10:33 AM PST by Jacob Kell
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To: mark502inf; Jacob Kell; Carry_Okie; XHogPilot
Mark502inf, you may also asked...and wether Serbs helped Chinese go to the Moon?

The fabrication you have posted have been refuted by the US Government long time ago:

US distances itself from think-tank report on Yugo arms sales to Iraq

WASHINGTON (AFP) Dec 05, 2002
The United States Wednesday distanced itself from a report by a Brussels-based think-tank that made sweeping allegations about Yugoslav arms sales to Iraq.

In an unusual move, the State Department, which had gone public with accusations of such sales in October, slapped down findings in the International Crisis Group's report as inaccurate.

"We cannot endorse their report as an accurate assessment of the situation because it contains speculative assertions and allegations as well as errors in fact," deputy spokesman Philip Reeker said.

He stressed that Washington remained seized of the issue and continued to pursue the matter with Belgrade but said the United States could not share the ICG's call for the international community to suspend aid to Yugoslavia. "Much remains to be done, but we have been encouraged" by the steps taken by Belgrade to address the situation, Reeker said.

In a report entitled "Arming Saddam" released Tuesday, the ICG said top Belgrade officials, including Yugoslav President Vojislav Kostunica and Serbian Prime Minister Zoran Djindjic, "either knew about the sales and did nothing to halt them, or should have known and acted." It said Yugoslavia had violated UN sanctions by selling missile, aviation and chemical technology and equipment to Iraq and called for aid to be suspended unless Belgrade dealt with the matter seriously.

Reeker declined to specify which parts of the report were speculative or inaccurate but noted that Washington had first identified the violations two months ago, accusing the state-run trading company, Jugoimport, of acting as a middleman between a Bosnian Serb factory and Baghdad in the supply of spare parts for Iraqi fighter jets. The Yugoslav government has acknowledged the sale was made. It suspended all military sales to countries under UN sanctions and launched a wider probe into military-related businesses and the defense ministry. The government also sacked a deputy defense minister and a director of the state-run Jugoimport company and closed the company's office in Baghdad.

Mark502inf, your shilling for Muslim terrorists is disgusting.

36 posted on 01/19/2004 8:26:18 AM PST by DTA (you ain't seen nothing yet)
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To: mark502inf; Jacob Kell; Carry_Okie; XHogPilot
Mark502inf, seems you are bent on showing who our true friends in the Balkans are. Le tme help you:

Serbia destroys one-man anti-aircraft missiles Fri 16 January, 2004 12:54

By Gordana Kukic

BELGRADE (Reuters) - Serbia and Montenegro says its army will complete the destruction of 1,200 shoulder-fired surface-to-air missiles next week to show support for U.S. efforts in combating terrorism....

Mark502inf, Radio Islam needs propagandists. If you need references, just aske here on FR :-)

37 posted on 01/19/2004 8:39:39 AM PST by DTA (you ain't seen nothing yet)
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To: DTA
Mark502inf, your shilling for Muslim terrorists is disgusting.

It didn't pass the sniff test.

The Balkans are a situation where there are so many interlocking interests and skilled liars that it's impossible to know what's really going on without being there. I read every report from that hellhole with more than usual suspicion.

Of course, the DOS has earned that circumspection as well.

38 posted on 01/19/2004 8:57:02 AM PST by Carry_Okie (There are people in power who are truly evil.)
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To: DTA
DTA, read what you just posted:

noted that Washington had first identified the violations two months ago, accusing the state-run trading company, Jugoimport, of acting as a middleman between a Bosnian Serb factory and Baghdad in the supply of spare parts for Iraqi fighter jets. The Yugoslav government has acknowledged the sale was made. It suspended all military sales to countries under UN sanctions and launched a wider probe into military-related businesses and the defense ministry. The government also sacked a deputy defense minister and a director of the state-run Jugoimport company and closed the company's office in Baghdad.

"Much remains to be done, but we have been encouraged" by the steps taken by Belgrade to address the situation, [State Department spokesman] Reeker said.

The State Department is clearly confirming the Serb illegal arms trafficking with Iraq. And although "much remains to be done", the Serbs are finally cleaning up their own mess and the U.S. State Department wants to encourage them in doing so. About time, don't you think DTA? Although you don't seem happy about it. I'm guessing from the sound of this, that since the the State Department is confirming the various illegalities, that they are refuting the allegation in the original report (which I did not cite) that Kostunica & Djinjic were somehow involved. Other than that, it all still stands--the Serbs were arming Saddam. And thank you for posting the State Department announcement confirming that.

39 posted on 01/19/2004 9:00:28 AM PST by mark502inf
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To: Carry_Okie; DTA
Mark502inf, your shilling for Muslim terrorists is disgusting.

Classic Balkans logic. The Serbs are selling weapons to Saddam = you're a shill for Muslim terrorists. However, speaking of shills for Muslim terrorists, how about the guy who made this comment about the Islamist terrorist attacks on 9-11:

"I'm not saying I'm glad that civilians died, but I can't say that I regret terrorist attacks against the United States"

That was Vojislav Seselj, the leader of the Serbian Radical Party which won the most seats—although thankfully not a majority—in the Serbian legislature in the December 2003 elections.

40 posted on 01/19/2004 9:15:42 AM PST by mark502inf
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To: mark502inf
Seselj is an a$$hole. He doesn't represent the majority of Serbs.
41 posted on 01/19/2004 9:31:20 AM PST by Jacob Kell
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To: Jacob Kell; DTA
Seselj is an a$$hole.

Among other things, such as an indicted war criminal.

He doesn't represent the majority of Serbs.

Thankfully true, but a significant minority--some of whom post here.

Kostunica has Serbia on the right path. They're getting rid of Milosevic's apparatchiks & criminals, cracking down on the illegal arms dealers (BTW, does that make him a shill for the Muslims?) and smugglers, getting the military into NATO's Partnership for Peace, and training up some troops to join the coalition in Afghanistan. Much to the chagrin of the atrocity deniers, he is even exhuming the bodies of 800 murdered Albanians where they were hidden in mass graves inside Serbia and returning them to their relatives in Kosovo.

That last move in particular is not popular in Serbia where many people prefer not to face up to such crimes. And its not popular with some of our fellow FReepers either--kind of impinges on their world view--but in the long run, that and finishing up the various war cime trials might Seselj and his party permanently into the historical curiosity category.

42 posted on 01/19/2004 11:52:17 AM PST by mark502inf
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To: DTA
Serbia destroys one-man anti-aircraft missiles Fri 16 January, 2004 12:54

Well done, DTA. That was your first accurate post in, in ... well maybe ever! So have a slivo or do a little celebratory gunfire! Do you still have that tiger carved in the stock of your AK?

43 posted on 01/19/2004 12:22:29 PM PST by mark502inf
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To: Jacob Kell
I don't believe there has ever been an agreed upon number for the total mujahadeen presence in Bosnia during the war, but congressional testimony refers to 500 Iranians in Bosnia, making them the largest contingent of foreigners - they were our biggest concern prior to Bin Laden leapfrogging them to become our priority terrorism target, so quite a bit of information was gathered on their presence in Bosnia during the war.

As to Osama himself, his financial support of the Taleban and control of the 55th brigade, the Taleban regime's shock troops, can be used to make a fairly good case for Osama being something of a deus ex machina as related to the Taleban - and while there are Al Qaeda members currently residing in countries that would normally just as soon slit their throats (Osama's view of the Islamic Caliphate doesn't have a place for the current regimes in the Moslem world if I understand his intentions correctly) they serve a purpose much like SCIRI did for us until we removed Saddam and shuffled SCIRI back to the 'bad guys' side of the deck.

As to the KLA, they're really no different from some members of the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan - useful in the short term, but liabilities for us and any suitable government in the long term. I don't see them as doing anything less than returning to their roots (organized crime) after their 15 minutes of fame, but I figure it will take some time for the ideological differences between those who joined the KLA because the LDK just wasn't cutting it and those who joined to make money to reduce the organization's headcount and political clout. At any rate, I don't forsee them attacking KFOR - they're not rocket surgeons, but they know that it's either KFOR or the Serbs.

Not too sure we're really diametrically opposed in our viewpoints here - regards.

44 posted on 01/19/2004 12:51:03 PM PST by Hoplite
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To: sleavelessinseattle; *balkans; Destro; Hoplite
Hoplite has been a stauch defender of Bosnian Jihadists since day one.

Even knowing that the Bosnians gave OBL citizenship and a passport hasn't detered Hoplite from his campaign to rehabilitate the Alija Iztbegovic, Nasir Oric, and the rest of the murderous Bosnian Jihadists armed, funded, and trained by liberals in the 1990's.

45 posted on 01/19/2004 1:07:15 PM PST by ehoxha
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To: mark502inf
"Much to the chagrin of the atrocity deniers, he is even exhuming the bodies of 800 murdered Albanians where they were hidden in mass graves inside Serbia and returning them to their relatives in Kosovo.
That last move in particular is not popular in Serbia where many people prefer not to face up to such crimes."

I know that Milosevic's forces committed war crimes and atrocities. It's been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. However, I believe that Milosevic was basically just a "former" communist and a opportunist who wanted to preseve power for himself by means both fair and foul (particularly the latter). He, in my opinion was not an ethnic or religious chauvinist like Seselj or Arkan (i.e. not a true believer); however, he certainly had little if any reluctance to use them for his own purposes. Personally, my opinion of Milosevic's relationship to the Bosnian Serb faction and the paramilitaries is that it's the same kind or similar to the secular Pakistani government's relationship to the Kashimiri rebel groups(including the Islamist ones)...namely useing them for their own purposes...but don't quote me on this. Even Justin Raimondo of Antiwar.com...who certainly can't be accused of supporting the Kosovo War or NATO states clearly that Milosevic is a war criminal..he believes that Milosevic should be tried in Belgrade. Seeing what a canine fornication (i.e. pooch screw)the Hague has been doing so far, I say let the Serbian people try the criminals. There should be at least some reliable and impartial judges there. Also, IMHO, it would be a good way to make Serbia face up.
46 posted on 01/19/2004 3:19:07 PM PST by Jacob Kell
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To: Hoplite
"I don't believe there has ever been an agreed upon number for the total mujahadeen presence in Bosnia during the war, but congressional testimony refers to 500 Iranians in Bosnia, making them the largest contingent of foreigners"

They were probably Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps, or Pasdaran. I believe they are considered separate from the Mujahideen.

"As to Osama himself, his financial support of the Taleban and control of the 55th brigade, the Taleban regime's shock troops, can be used to make a fairly good case for Osama being something of a deus ex machina as related to the Taleban"

True, but that doesn't necessarily mean they agreed 100% on everything. Also, wasn't the 55th Brigade separate from the Taliban forces, part of Al Qaeda?

"As to the KLA, they're really no different from some members of the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan"

Maybe, but the Northern Alliance at least had some more-or-less-nice elements in it. I don't know if that's true of the KLA.

"but I figure it will take some time for the ideological differences between those who joined the KLA because the LDK just wasn't cutting it and those who joined to make money to reduce the organization's headcount and political clout."

Some of the political elements are no doubt pretty radical themselves.

"At any rate, I don't forsee them attacking KFOR - they're not rocket surgeons, but they know that it's either KFOR or the Serbs."

Who knows? If they don't get their way, they may well decide that they don't have much if any to lose. Besides, they may figure that if the Serbs return, they can always resume guerilla activities.
47 posted on 01/19/2004 3:27:21 PM PST by Jacob Kell
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To: XHogPilot
Iin an FAS web-page about halfway down it says: "By the summer of 1990, Iraq possessed 16,000 radar-guided and heatseeking surface-to-air missiles (SAMs), including the Soviet SA-2, SA-3, SA-6, SA-7, SA-8, SA-9, SA-13, SA-14, and SA-16, and the Franco-German Roland," The same info is at the Global Security web-site.
48 posted on 01/19/2004 6:52:43 PM PST by mark502inf
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To: mark502inf; ehoxha; sleavelessinseattle; *balkans; Destro; Hoplite; Carry_Okie; DTA; ...
about halfway down it says: "By the summer of 1990, Iraq possessed 16,000 radar-guided and heatseeking surface-to-air missiles (SAMs), including the Soviet SA-2, SA-3, SA-6, SA-7, SA-8, SA-9, SA-13, SA-14, and SA-16,..."

Mark502inf,
Look all the way to the bottom of your reference, the Global Security web-site page. Check the table "Air Defence Command, Inventory". All those wicked AAA and SAM systems known in inventory have a number or + associated with them, except the SA-16. The SA-16 has ?. The ?s go all the way across to the present. I challenge you to find any credible source that unequivocally states SA-16s were in Iraq during Operation Desert Storm, or for that matter, the beginning of Operation Iraqi Freedom.

You should find numerous .mil and .gov references to other SAMs and AAA in arsenal or actually engaging US and coalition aircraft from the period of Operation DESERT STORM through Operation PROVIDE COMFORT (OPC), OPC II, Operation DESERT STRIKE, Operation DESERT FOX, Operation SOUTHERN WATCH and the clearly described blow-by-blow Operation NORTHERN WATCH engagements, and into Operation IRAQI FREEDOM. Please notify us all when you find one that lists SA-13 in Iraq directly, without using an intermediate source. You cannot find what was not there.

49 posted on 01/19/2004 9:18:48 PM PST by XHogPilot
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To: XHogPilot
critical thinking bump -- and thanks
50 posted on 01/19/2004 9:37:25 PM PST by risk
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