RUDYARD KIPLING-- Hard Lessons About Human Nature For Utopian Multiculturalists!

ICONOCLAST ^ | Stephen Rittenberg

[Apolitical]

"...They promised perpetual peace. They swore, if we gave them our weapons, that the wars of the tribes would cease. But when we disarmed They sold us and delivered us bound to our foe..."

As the British Empire declined so too did the reputation of Rudyard Kipling. A great story teller, he was, as George Orwell noted, the poet laureate of empire. Gradually Kipling came to be viewed as anachronistic and archaic. A more liberal and supposedly more tolerant view became the dominant one amongst English speaking wordsmith intellectuals, so that by the time Kipling died in 1936, socialism, communism and pacifism were the reigning ideologies.

Orwell described Kipling as: "a jingo imperialist?morally insensitive and aesthetically disgusting." And it's true, Kipling's poetry often amounts to doggerel of the shallowest sort. However, the emergence of utopian liberalism brought its own shallow and wishful thinking, especially about human nature, culminating in our current multicultural insistence that no one culture or set of beliefs is superior to any other.

George Orwell however, began questioning the assumptions of his fellow socialists. Unlike most of his contemporaries who yearned for an egalitarian, workers' paradise, Orwell saw much to value in Kipling, especially his gem like clarity about human nature. Kipling understood the longing for utopia and the social dangers that would follow. He anticipated the advent of totalitarians wishing to make us better than we truly are.

In fact, the totalitarian left rose to power propelled by an idea: the utopian idea that human nature can be changed by reorganizing society. Anyone can sign on to this idealistic enterprise merely by accepting that idea. Of course, Orwell never completely abandoned his liberal-left politics, but he devoted his creative work to exposing the horrors that often follow in the wake of utopian dreams...

[Apolitical]

Wonder what Kipling would have thought of Howard Dean and the rest of the Democratic appeasers?

[RobbyS]

I think I know what Orwell would think of them.

[razorback-bert]

When desperate Folly daily laboureth
To work confusion upon all we have,
When diligent Sloth demandeth Freedom's death,
And banded Fear commandeth Honour's grave--
Even in that certain hour before the fall,
Unless men please they are not heard at all.

[Restorer]

Suicidal Islamist totalitarians seeking to kill us are every bit as dangerous as their twentieth century predecessors.

Actually, they're not.

They would certainly like to be, but there is zero chance of Islamists conquering or destroying the US.

At various times during the 20th century there was a significant possibility that the Nazis or Soviets would conquer or destroy the US.

Miitarily speaking, Islamists are at most an irritant.

[Land_of_Lincoln_John]

Long Live Dead White Men Culture

[King Prout]

I don't share your optimism.
In their war against the West, the jihadis are using demographic shift, gradual infiltration, and squeaky-wheel tactics rather than conventional munitions.
Evidence from Europe and, now, Canada, suggests the islamofascists have been vastly more successful than the hitlerites and stalinists.

[Merciful_Friend]

They're not capable of conquering us in any conventional sense, granted. However, their declared intent is to kill as many of us as possible - and the three thousand civilians/police/firefighters on the U.S. mainland that they killed on 9/11 are three thousand more than the Nazis and Soviets managed to kill.

How many more they succeed in killing depends on the intersection of their desires (millions) with their capabilities (bio? chemical? nuclear?) which are not fully known and will remain in flux. Killing tens or hundreds of thousands of civilians would not defeat America in a military sense, but would hurt America more than any previous enemy has managed to do - and would certainly change the nature of our free society in a way not seen since the civil war, I think.

While it seems unlikely that they could pull such a thing off, how truly shocked would anyone be if they did?

So, to file under "knowing your enemy," I would take them at their word regarding what they would like to do to us, and rate their danger accordingly.

[clintonh8r]

The Man Who Would Be King, one of my alltime favorite movies and based on a Kipling story, was on TV last night. Kipling was a great man and a great talent.

[Rocky]

Appropriate verse, but it's not Kipling, is it?

[Forgiven_Sinner]

According to the Iconoclast, this poem describes his opinion of liberals in our society:

---

The Gods of the Copybook Headings

---

AS I PASS through my incarnations in every age and race,
I make my proper prostrations to the Gods of the Market Place.
Peering through reverent fingers I watch them flourish and fall,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings, I notice, outlast them all.
We were living in trees when they met us. They showed us each in turn
That Water would certainly wet us, as Fire would certainly burn:
But we found them lacking in Uplift, Vision and Breadth of Mind,
So we left them to teach the Gorillas while we followed the March of Mankind.

We moved as the Spirit listed. They never altered their pace,
Being neither cloud nor wind-borne like the Gods of the Market Place,
But they always caught up with our progress, and presently word would come
That a tribe had been wiped off its icefield, or the lights had gone out in Rome.

With the Hopes that our World is built on they were utterly out of touch,
They denied that the Moon was Stilton; they denied she was even Dutch;
They denied that Wishes were Horses; they denied that a Pig had Wings;
So we worshipped the Gods of the Market Who promised these beautiful things.

When the Cambrian measures were forming, They promised perpetual peace.
They swore, if we gave them our weapons, that the wars of the tribes would cease.
But when we disarmed They sold us and delivered us bound to our foe,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "Stick to the Devil you know."

On the first Feminian Sandstones we were promised the Fuller Life
(Which started by loving our neighbour and ended by loving his wife)
Till our women had no more children and the men lost reason and faith,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "The Wages of Sin is Death."

In the Carboniferous Epoch we were promised abundance for all,
By robbing selected Peter to pay for collective Paul;
But, though we had plenty of money, there was nothing our money could buy,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "If you don't work you die."

Then the Gods of the Market tumbled, and their smooth-tongued wizards withdrew
And the hearts of the meanest were humbled and began to believe it was true
That All is not Gold that Glitters, and Two and Two make Four
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings limped up to explain it once more.

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began.
That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;

And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will bum,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return.

I agree.

[okie01]

"Kipling was a great man and a great talent."

Kipling was a master storyteller. My kids were raised on the "Just So" stories, "Jungle Book", "Gunga Din", "Kim" and "The Man Who Would Be King", etc. Wonderful stories, well told, each with an important life message.

Now, my grandkids are receiving their introduction to Mr. Kipling.

Jack London, Robert Service, Mark Twain and A.A. Milne have all made their contributions to my children's childhoods. But, of them all, my personal favorite is Rudyard Kipling.

[clintonh8r]

and Tommy is one of my favorite poems.

[Travis McGee]

You miss the nature of the threat. Of course you would, if you measure danger by the number and range of ICBMs. But while MAD kept the peace during the cold war, it was based on the rationality of the actors. Not so with the islamists, who are untethered by any western notions of rational behavior. So it doesn't matter if they can "win," only that they are insane, and will gladly blow themselves up in your children's kindergarten if they can do so. No, islamists can't "win," but they can potentially destroy the west that we know. For example, by mailing thousands of anthrax laden packages at once, and destroying the global economy. (The 2001 anthrax test attack consisted of 3 grams, not 100s of kilos in thousands of parcels, which would stop our economy dead.)

[okie01]

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!

When it comes to poetry in dialect, Kipling and Service have no peer.

[wolf24]

All it would take would be one successfull detonation of a suitcase nuke in an American city. They can fail 10-20 times but all they have to do is succeed once. The ramifications of one success of this nature by the Islamofascist pscyhopaths would be catastrophic along many different lines.

[wolf24]

I agree:

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you
But make allowance for their doubting too,
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:
If you can dream--and not make dreams your master,
If you can think--and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it all on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings--nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much,
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son!

-If, Kipling

[Restorer]

For the Islamists to represent a significant military threat, they would have to come up with some presently-unknown and remarkably effective military technology. Given their attitude towards modernity and education, this is highly unlikely.

A large anthrax attack would be disruptive, but not immobilizing. The darn mail is hardly used for anything but sending junk mail, anyway. If could be abandoned temporarily quite easily, IMHO.

The medical treatments for anthrax also proved to be far more effective than anticipated, if treatment is started in time.

Comparing an attack that could disrupt the mail to one that could destroy or conquer and occupy the country is hyperbole.

Doesn't mean you shouldn't track down and kill them anyway. I'm just recognizing that they're not going to be able to kill us all, or even a significant percentage.

Assessment of a potential threat takes should take into account both the enemy's intentions and his capabilities. But for obvious reasons, a lot more attention should be given to capabilities. And the Islamists' military capability is very low.

[Restorer]

All it would take would be one successfull detonation of a suitcase nuke in an American city. They can fail 10-20 times but all they have to do is succeed once. The ramifications of one success of this nature by the Islamofascist pscyhopaths would be catastrophic along many different lines.

Losing a city does not mean the end of the US or of the West. Huge tragedy, but its main result would be the quick extermination of Islamism throughout the world.

As in ultimatums to all Muslim regimes throughout the world, "You have 48 hours to hand over all known or suspected Islamists in your country or face nuclear destruction of your capitol."

Somehow I expect even the Iranian mullahs would scramble to comply.

[okie01]

If...words for fathers to teach to sons.

It makes better men of us both for the experience.

[Travis McGee]

Yes indeed. Or a lower-tech approach: load ten or so cargo containers with Tim McVeigh's ANFO formula, packed in honey or olive oil barrels. Ship them to American ports, and detonate them with GPS or R/C triggers.

Or build 20 or so bombs in something innocuous like cans of shaving cream. Set them all to detonate at the same minute, say noon on the 4th of July. Get 20 jihadists to pack them into their luggage and be airborne on American jets at that hour.

There are so many ways to destroy our economy and bring us down. Not for them to win, that's not the point. Just to bring is down.

[Travis McGee]

A large anthrax attack would be disruptive, but not immobilizing. The darn mail is hardly used for anything but sending junk mail, anyway. If could be abandoned temporarily quite easily, IMHO

WRONG-O! The main DC mail sorting facility is still abandoned as unsafe, 2 years after a 3 gram attack! The Am. Media Corp building in Palm Beach County is still abandoned as unsafe as well.

That was THREE GRAMS. (Teaspoons IOW.)

Now imagine a 300 kilo attack on our infrastructure, 100s of leaky envelopes flying around our system on the same day. Goodbye USPS, FEDEX and UPS, for starters. Goodbye US economy. Goodbye US health system.

[bc2]

If there ever was a thread with you in mind, this is it!

Best regards in the new year...

bc2

[bvw]

That is only due to a over-preponderance of caution, and a lack of enterprise applied to solving the problems. If there is a more extensive attack, American Ingenuity will have a chance to bump off the over-cautious, the victim's cult.

Inventive and ingenious methods wil be unleashed by the public. The problem will be remedied very quickly. We will scratch our heads wondering why we let the problem fester so long, and left the McClellans in-charge, when every American neighborhood has Grants and Shermans.

[Restorer]

You have a very low opinion of the resilience of Americans and their economy. The types of attacks you mention would be very destructive. They would not result in the end of America.

As I pointed out in my earlier post, had the Nazis been allowed to complete their conquest of Eurasia, and it was a very near thing, they could within 7-10 years have brought overwhelming military power to bear on the US, their only potential remaining foe. That could have led to the end of the US.

In this scenario, who got the A-bomb first would have been crucial.

Of course, from the mid-50s on Soviet H-bombs could have destroyed the US pretty completely in a few hours.

Are you seriously trying to equate these military threats with that posed by a few tens of thousands (at most) rag-tag terrorists who can't even manufacture their own weapons?

Can they do a lot of damage? Absolutely!

Can they conquer and occupy us, or destroy us? No way!

[razorback-bert]

Of course it is.

The Fabulists

[King Prout]

hehehe... then you probably recognize the names forming my UserID :)

[mylife]

Kipling is most insightful and astute..there is much that is relevant to today from his writings.

[TalBlack]

As it happens Mark Twain thought Kipling was enormously talented. Kipling visited him one day on a trip to America and Twain thought he was the next 'big thing'.

[yankeedame]

Now, my grandkids are receiving their introduction to Mr. Kipling.

When they get a little older introduce them to Raphael Sabatini ("Captain Blood", "The Sea Hawks", and "The Treasure Ship: "She would be homing for Spain when the hurricane caught her...." Easterling laughed... The dark, bold eyes, in his great red face glinted wickedly. "Give me a homing Spaniard, Chard. There'll be treasure aboard that hulk. By God, we're in luck at last." )

and

Ryder Haggard ("She", "King Solomon's Mines", and "Maiwa's Revenge, or The War of the Little Hand": "About four o'clock...the head man of one of Wambe's kraals had arrived...a little, wizened, talkative old man, with a waistcloth round his middle, and a greasy, frayed kaross made of the skins of rock rabbits over his shoulders....")

By Jupiter, if these books don't teach them (boy or girl, doesn't matter) to love reading, nothing will!

[joesnuffy]

They are also 'enabled' by those who seek to use them for a far more nefarious end...
They are a legitimate threat...and that is what makes them so usefull...
imo

[okie01]

Stalky & Company?

`Well, take your own case, King, and go back a couple of years. Do you remember when Prout and you were on their track -- for hutting and trespass, wasn't it? Have you forgotten Colonel Dabney?'

[okie01]

"By Jupiter, if these books don't teach them (boy or girl, doesn't matter) to love reading, nothing will!"

Let's not forget Robert Louis Stevenson, either. Swashbucklers are always in style. And, eventually, one graduates to Alexander Dumas -- e.g., The Three Musketeers being a romp of epic proportions, with a goodly dollop of history.

I always thought the Richard Lester films were a true portrayal, one that Dumas would've heartily approved.

Reading material like this encourages the imagination...

[VOA]

bump

[AnAmericanMother]

And do not neglect his late stories, the English stories. Some are ghost stories, like "They" or "Wireless", some are stories of English rural life, like "Friendly Brook" which is also in its own way a ghost story, "My Son's Wife" and "An Habitation Enforced." Those are my current favorites at the moment. Stories that are hard to read (from a comfort sense - very disturbing) but true to the core are "The Wish House" and "The Gardener". And you can read them all here.

Wolf, you will be amused to know that "If" was written in praise of George Washington. It forms the end-piece to his short story "Brother Squaretoes" in Rewards and Fairies. That book and its predecessor, Puck of Pook's Hill, are fantasies on a moral/historic theme - ostensibly written for children but (as Kipling told Cecil Rhodes, or possibly Rider Haggard) actually for adults.

You really can't go wrong with Kipling. The short stories I named you will find mostly in his two collections Actions and Reactions and Debits and Credits. And many other wonderful stories besides.

[AnAmericanMother]

Yes! Stalky forever! How about this:

Disko dropped a heavy hand on his shoulder, for the man’s eyes were wild and his lips trembled as he stared at the silent crew. Then up and spoke Pennsylvania Pratt, who was also Haskins or Rich or McVitty when Uncle Salters forgot; and his face was changed on him from the face of a fool to the countenance of an old, wise man, and he said in a strong voice: “The Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord! I was—I am a minister of the Gospel. Leave him to me.”

“Oh, you be, be you?” said the man. “Then pray my son back to me! Pray back a nine-thousand-dollar boat an’ a thousand quintal of fish. If you’d left me alone my widow could ha’ gone on to the Provident an’ worked fer her board, an’ never known—an’ never known. Now I’ll hev to tell her.”

“There ain’t nothin’ to say,” said Disko. “Better lie down a piece, Jason Olley.”

When a man has lost his only son, his summer’s work, and his means of livelihood, in thirty counted seconds, it is hard to give consolation.

“All Gloucester men, wasn’t they,” said Tom Platt, fiddling helplessly with a dory-becket.

“Oh, that don’t make no odds,” said Jason, wringing the wet from his beard. “I’ll be rowin’ summer boarders araound East Gloucester this fall.” He rolled heavily to the rail, singing. “Happy birds that sing and fly Round thine altars, O Most High!”

“Come with me. Come below!” said Penn, as though he had a right to give orders. Their eyes met and fought for a quarter of a minute.

“I dunno who you be, but I’ll come,” said Jason, submissively. “Mebbe I’ll get back some o’ the—some o’ the—nine thousand dollars.” Penn led him into the cabin and slid the door behind.

“That ain’t Penn,” cried Uncle Salters. “It’s Jacob Boller, an’—he’s remembered Johnstown! I never seed such eyes in any livin’ man’s head. What’s to do naow? What’ll I do naow?”

They could hear Penn’s voice and Jason’s together. Then Penn’s went on alone, and Salters slipped off his hat, for Penn was praying. Presently the little man came up the steps, huge drops of sweat on his face, and looked at the crew. Dan was still sobbing by the wheel.

“He don’t know us,” Salters groaned. “It’s all to do over again, checkers and everything—an’ what’ll he say to me?”

Penn spoke; they could hear that it was to strangers. “I have prayed,” said he. “Our people believe in prayer. I have prayed for the life of this man’s son. Mine were drowned before my eyes—she and my eldest and—the others. Shall a man be more wise than his Maker? I prayed never for their lives, but I have prayed for this man’s son, and he will surely be sent him.”

Salters looked pleadingly at Penn to see if he remembered.

“How long have I been mad?” Penn asked suddenly. His mouth was twitching.

“Pshaw, Penn! You weren’t never mad,” Salters began. “Only a little distracted like.”

“I saw the houses strike the bridge before the fires broke out. I do not remember any more. How long ago is that?”

“I can’t stand it! I can’t stand it!” cried Dan, and Harvey whimpered in sympathy.

“Abaout five year,” said Disko, in a shaking voice.

“Then I have been a charge on some one for every day of that time. Who was the man?”

Disko pointed to Salters.

“Ye hain’t—ye hain’t!” cried the sea-farmer, twisting his hands together. “Ye’ve more’n earned your keep twice-told; an’ there’s money owin’ you, Penn, besides ha’af o’ my quarter-share in the boat, which is yours fer value received.”

“You are good men. I can see that in your faces. But—”

“Mother av Mercy,” whispered Long Jack, “an’ he’s been wid us all these trips! He’s clean bewitched.”

A schooner’s bell struck up alongside, and a voice hailed through the fog: “O Disko! ’Heard abaout the Jennie Cushman?”

“They have found his son,” cried Penn. “Stand you still and see the salvation of the Lord!”

[wardaddy]

wrath...

have we lost it?

[okie01]

“They have found his son,” cried Penn. “Stand you still and see the salvation of the Lord!”

A master storyteller...

[Rocky]

Thanks.

My father used to quote Kipling verse. One of his favorites was the poem in which he was debating whether to marry Maggie, who was insisting that he give up cigars. He concluded, "A woman is only a woman, but a good cigar is a smoke."

Kipling would not be considered politically correct today. A lot of liberals, who accuse others of being "book-burners", would love to burn Kipling's books.

[wardaddy]

A lot of liberals, who accuse others of being "book-burners", would love to burn Kipling's books.

Molon Labe.

[Rocky]

"Molon Labe."

OK, what does it mean?

[Paul C. Jesup]

Anyone else here besides me feel that utopianism should be listed as serious mental illense and the aflected should be commited to insane asylums.

[cyborg]

http://www.thefiringline.com/HCI/molon_labe.htm

[cyborg]

similar to my fav...

http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:PdmD2_FAHggJ:members.tripod.com/selousscouts/pamwe_chete.htm+pamwe+chete&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

[wardaddy]

"Come and get them" essentially.

http://www.thefiringline.com/HCI/molon_labe.htm

a fav expression amongst RKBA folks like me and others here.

Regards

[Travis McGee]

When have I EVER said they could conquer or occupy us? NEVER. Can they wreck the world economy by a mass anthrax attack etc? Of course they can. That's why this is a fight to the death, and not just an idle distraction.

[Travis McGee]

This PM my compute blew a gasket, had a stroke, and is on life support. I can barely make it function. If I'm not online for a few days, you'll know why. Please pass this message to anyone trying to contact me.

[Squantos]

Use some of those millions from book sales dang it ! Get ya a laptop backup !.........:o)

[what's up]

G.K. Chesterton was not an admirer of Kipling.

I wonder why?

[novacation]

"Kipling's poetry amount to doggeral of the shallowest sort."
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too:
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
or,being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;
If you dream and not make dreams your master;
If you can think and not make thoughts your aim,
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster,
And treat those two impostors just the same:
etc.

Shallow? I don't think so.

[wizardoz]

He anticipated the advent of totalitarians wishing to make us better than we truly are.

The first thing we must do is fight this notion that totalitarians are "idealists" who wish to make us "better." They wish to eradicate that which makes us human! We must not love ourselves, we must not love our families... we must love "the human race" blindly, equally, without preference, passion, judgment, or nuance.

What they want is to eradicate humanity and replace it with Stepford citizens, automatons with no love of self or family, no capacity for romance or vision, no desire for freedom or autonomy. They want us blank and obedient, willing to accept lives of emptiness and drudgery. They aren't idealists. They are hell's own monsters.