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Welsh star in race row (LOTR's John Rhys-Davies makes anti-Muslim remarks)
IC Wales ^ | Jan 18 2004 | Lucy Ballinger

Posted on 01/18/2004 9:25:33 PM PST by Michael2001

ONE of the biggest Welsh movie stars in Hollywood kicked off a race storm last night after making anti-Muslim remarks.

Outraged Islamic leaders in Wales demanded an immediate apology from Lord Of The Rings actor John Rhys-Davies, who claimed an increase in Europe's Muslim population was a "demographic catastrophe" threatening "Western civilisation".

The 59-year-old Ammanford actor's comments were originally made in an interview with American journalists from World magazine, but this week they were used by the far right British National Party in a leaflet to campaign for support among cinema-goers.

Last night Rhys-Davies stood by his views which follow Robert Kilroy-Silk's inflammatory anti-Arab column. But he criticised the BNP for hijacking his words for their own ends.

In the interview, Rhys-Davies, who plays heroic dwarf Gimli and recorded the voice of computer-animated character Treebeard in the Hollywood blockbuster, interprets Tolkien's story of good versus evil as a metaphor for modern race relations.

He said: "There is a demographic catastrophe happening in Europe that nobody wants to talk about, that we daren't bring up because we are so cagey about not offending people racially. And rightly we should be. But there is a cultural thing as well.

"By 2020, 50 per cent of the children in Holland under the age of 18 will be of Muslim descent.

"I think that Tolkien says that some generations will be challenged. And if they do not rise to meet that challenge, they will lose their civilisation. That does have a real resonance with me."

The 6ft tall actor, who wore facial prosthetics and performed on his knees to portray the 4ft 2in dwarf in Lord Of The Rings, even says he is aware that his beliefs could end his career, which has seen him star in the Indiana Jones films and James Bond movie The Living Daylights.

"I am for dead, (traditional) white male culture," said Rhys-Davies, who divides his time between his homes in Los Angeles and the Isle of Man.

"Many do not understand how precarious Western civilisation is and what a joy it is.

"From it, we get real democracy. From it, we get the sort of intellectual tolerance that allows me to propound something that may be completely alien to you.

"I'm burying my career so substantially in these interviews that it's painful. But I think there are some questions that demand honest answers."

The BNP reproduced some of his comments on their website, where they ask people to print them off and distribute them at showings of Lord Of The Rings.

BNP leader Nick Griffin last night defended using Rhys-Davies' words for their Stand, Men Of The West leaflet, which he claimed was popular with film-goers in the Valleys.

"He is not a racist in terms of race hate and nor are we," he said.

"We just feel his views dovetail with our message as the comments in the interview quoted reflect our opinions too."

Rhys-Davies said it was "distressing to find yourself on a BNP leaflet", adding: "But on reflection, these people can't really do any great harm unless you allow them to."

The actor's over-the-top views were criticised by Tolkien Society publicity officer Ian Collier.

He said: "The Tolkien Society is not a politically-aligned organisation and we do not in any way condone the use of his works to support messages of racial hate, just as Tolkien himself objected strongly to the use of Northern Myth by the Nazis.

"There is documentary evidence that Tolkien did not agree with these views and we are saddened to see this kind of misrepresentation occurring."

The views were greeted with contempt by the MP for Rhys-Davies' former home town, Ammanford.

"I condemn these comments as being racist and ill-informed," said Adam Price, Plaid Cymru MP for Carmarthen East & Dinefwr.

"It is obvious that this man who now lives in the lap of luxury in Hollywood is out of touch with realities of the nature of present day European society.

"His attack on Muslims and comments about the threat that they pose to Western society shows his ignorance of world events and the true teachings of Islam.

"Ammanford people will feel very let down by a man with such close connections to the town."

Last night Mohammed Javed, chairman of the Muslim Society for Wales, said: "We want an apology. This could stir up racial hatred in society. It's ignorance, he should learn more about Islam and the religions before he makes these comments.

"They are based on his ignorance and nothing else."

Chief executive of the All Wales Ethnic Minority Association (Awema) Naz Malik agreed.

He said: "I do not know why he has said these things. If 50 per cent of people in Holland under 18 are Muslims in 16 years time, so what? In Britain the fastest growing race is mixed race, people of dual heritage. It is a cause for great celebration that our cultures are mixed.

"We live in a global society - we celebrate what is good in cultures and challenge what is bad in civilisations.

"Does he ever listen to any music other than European? Does he eat Indian food? Does he ever appreciate art other than that from Europe?

"I feel sorry for this actor because he must feel very insecure about his future. I feel sorry for his close mindedness."

Wales Friends of Searchlight's Ian Titherington accused the BNP of hijacking the actor's comments.

He said: "Tolkien's Ring Trilogy is generally considered to be the best fantasy story ever written.

"It really shows how desperate the BNP are, to try to make political capital out of a cinematic re-production of fantasy."

LAST NIGHT we spoke to John Rhys-Davies from his Hollywood home and asked him to defend his opinions.

Here's what he said...

I BELIEVE in racial equality not racial discrimination. All I was commenting on was that there are cultural changes taking place in Europe that I consider to be unacceptable.

The fact that a minister of the French government has to fly to Cairo to talk with one of the religious heads in one of the mosques to get his approval for a ban on headscarves can be seen in two ways.

One, is how wonderfully culturally sensitive. The other, it seems to give an authority to a wholly unelected figure well outside Europe's jurisdiction.

I am really proud to be living in a society that accepts women as our equals, that accepts civilised discourse that allows people to hold different opinions without coming to any act of violence.

Here in America when that earthquake happened in Iran the reaction of everyone I knew was horror and dismay, the reaction of everyone when they heard that the old woman had been brought out alive long after they thought there was anyone there was absolute awe at the extraordinary capacity of the human spirit to survive. Contrast that with people jumping up and down and clapping at the 9/11 disaster in certain countries.

I don't think that Western society is opposed to Islamic society at all. I think a very important part of Islamic society is opposed to Western society.

It is time that ordinary Muslims stood up to be counted.

Most societies can benefit from a good stirring of genes, but most cultures are tolerant of each other. I do not see Buddhists throwing bombs into Christian churches, I do not see Christians blowing up Hindu temples, I do not see those sorts of challenges.

When we are prepared to overlook certain things because we don't want to rock the boat, this is wrong.

The greatest act of racism is to expect that other people will not behave according to your values and standards.

Yes, I am for dead, (traditional) white male culture. It's pretty damn good, pretty damn marvellous, pretty wonderful. That's not to exclude other cultures, but it's not to diminish mine.

I'm sorry that might be perceived as infringing some sort of racial taboo, it's certainly not intended to be a racial remark.

We are losing the ability to sit down and be able to have a tolerable argument.

I do not want to see a society where, should I ever have any, my granddaughters have their fingernails pulled out because they are wearing nail varnish.

I hope that my friends and relatives in Wales are not going to be shocked by what they are going to read about.

Do not brand me a racist because I am most certainly not.

But I will stand by this: Western Christianised Europe has values and experience that is worth defending.


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; United Kingdom; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: cymru; hobbit; johnrhysdavies; lotr; rhysdavies; wales; zionist
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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To: Rytwyng
There's a couple of things going on here. First, "racism" is the accusation that everybody condemns, so we can call this the modern McCarthyism.

Second, Islam is actually the conversion of other peoples to the Arab race. The Koran is only correct in Arabic and converts are encouraged to take Muslim names.

Third, Islam has no independent morality. If you are Islamic, whatever you do is good and for the glory of Allah. That is why Muslims instinctively defend Muslims -- even those that kill other Muslims. They're all of the same team, the same tribe, if you will. If you are Islamic, however, no matter how much good you do, you are not a moral person.

101 posted on 01/19/2004 9:18:53 AM PST by AmishDude
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To: Jeff Head
Adam Price, Plaid Cymru MP for Carmarthen East & Dinefwr

The kind of man (sic) who will be so senstive and understanding he will send his daughters off to school in a birqua in a few years, because he knows that muslim boys can't help trying to rape her otherwise.

102 posted on 01/19/2004 9:24:54 AM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Michael2001
Tolkien's story of good versus evil as a metaphor for modern race relations.


That sound you are hearing is JRR Tolkien spinning in his grave.
103 posted on 01/19/2004 9:45:11 AM PST by Valin (We make a living by what we get, we make a life by what we give.)
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To: Michael2001
May God bless John Rhys-Davies for having the courage to say the truth, even if its unpopularity may ruin his career. He is a fine actor and I have enjoyed his work in the Indiana Jones movies, The Living Daylights, and especially The Lord of the Ring saga.

We need more people like him willing to speak as simply, and to the point about the dangers facing Western civilization today. If people fail to take note, life as we know it is doomed to fail.

104 posted on 01/19/2004 9:51:23 AM PST by SaveTheChief
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To: Michael2001
Why is it when Pat Buchanan says essentially the same thing regarding America (you know that nation we live in) he is branded as a heretic, nazi, whacko, nutcase?? Pesonally I love my European heritage, have lived there and am saddened at the devolution of their culture. Mr Rhys-Davies speaks for me as both an American and one of those of dead white guys so hated here. Wish we had some like him in our entertainment culture who would fall on their sword for principle and love of country. He must be a descendent of Llywelyn "The Great".
105 posted on 01/19/2004 9:55:10 AM PST by strongbow
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To: bootless
It's about a society that wishes us converted to Islam, or dead.

I'm in agreement. We have to look at the bottom line. The Muslim cultures don't want to integrate into our culture, they want us to adapt to them.

106 posted on 01/19/2004 9:56:16 AM PST by Ciexyz
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To: backhoe
Now I can go see ROTK again and cheer on Gimli -- while swallowing the bile I taste whenever leftiepuke Viggo Mortenson comes on screen.
107 posted on 01/19/2004 10:00:55 AM PST by Ciexyz
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To: Michael2001
"Rhys-Davies....interprets Tolkien's story of good versus evil as a metaphor for modern race relations."

This isn't about race. It's about ideology. What an ignorant statement.

"I'm burying my career so substantially in these interviews that it's painful. But I think there are some questions that demand honest answers."

That's another big difference between the right and left. A conservative will realize that actions have consequences and they are more likely to count the cost before shooting off their mouths whereas a lefty will shoot off his mouth at will and then be surprised , or even outraged, when there are consequences.

"The actor's over-the-top views were criticised by Tolkien Society publicity officer Ian Collier."

Truth is over the top now? These journalists are so clueless it's almost painful how they contort words.

"His attack on Muslims and comments about the threat that they pose to Western society shows his ignorance of world events and the true teachings of Islam."

Umm, no, Mr. Price. That statement makes it quite clear that it is YOU who are ignorant.

"we celebrate what is good in cultures and challenge what is bad in civilisations."

I believe that is precisely what he was doing.

"I feel sorry for this actor because he must feel very insecure about his future. I feel sorry for his close mindedness."

What a patronizing, BS statement. At least Mr. Davies knows who, and what, he is. He has his eyes wide open, and he speaks the truth. The demons of darkness (and Islam) have always hated the truth. Exposure represses their power. Thank God for him and others like him, who have a handle on what really matters and are not afraid to stand up for what is right, even if it means making personal sacrifices.

"We are losing the ability to sit down and be able to have a tolerable argument."

BINGO! And that is the intention of political correctness. It hasn't got a thing to do with being sensitive. True sensitivity would cut both ways. PC never does.

"But I will stand by this: Western Christianised Europe has values and experience that is worth defending."

BRAVO! High time somebody said it.

108 posted on 01/19/2004 10:02:34 AM PST by sweetliberty (Even the smallest person can change the course of the future. - (LOTR))
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To: Budge
Ping for a great post!
109 posted on 01/19/2004 10:03:09 AM PST by sweetliberty (Even the smallest person can change the course of the future. - (LOTR))
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To: AmishDude
Political Correctness is the new McCarthyism. The left uses it to silence any opposition. Dead white European ideals are on the PC "out" list. Vegan metrosexuals who support socialism are "in".
110 posted on 01/19/2004 10:18:44 AM PST by weegee
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To: knighthawk
double ouch...
111 posted on 01/19/2004 10:18:49 AM PST by Yehuda (http://www.JewPoint.blogspot.com)
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To: Bogey78O
"Arab culture is regressive by all standards and it's promulgation in the West while silencing any Western thought in their own countries is a tragedy."

No; what has actually happened is that white, western society has been conditioned to feel guilty for our superior culture and in that false sense of guilt we have allowed the encroachment of a dangerous ideology into Western society. That is as ignorant as deliberately putting yourself at risk of a deadly disease because you feel guilty for being healthy. Islam is a cultural cancer. They are what they are. They will not change. WE are the ones who have to fight the "disease" instead of facilitating it. If we fail to do so, we have no one to blame but ourselves.

112 posted on 01/19/2004 10:19:19 AM PST by sweetliberty (Even the smallest person can change the course of the future. - (LOTR))
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To: sheik yerbouty
"I predict a rise in his career"

Perhaps he and Mel Gibson could team up to recreate the film industry.

113 posted on 01/19/2004 10:22:36 AM PST by sweetliberty (Even the smallest person can change the course of the future. - (LOTR))
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To: Bobby777
"Saudi defense minister says churches will never be allowed in Saudi Arabia"

That is racist and intolerant. I demand an apology. < /sarcasm >

114 posted on 01/19/2004 10:23:57 AM PST by sweetliberty (Even the smallest person can change the course of the future. - (LOTR))
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To: Stewart_B
Thanks. This member of the National Rifle Association likes your tagline.
115 posted on 01/19/2004 10:31:39 AM PST by Siamese Princess
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
Thanks. This member of the National Rifle Association likes your tagline, too.
116 posted on 01/19/2004 10:33:39 AM PST by Siamese Princess
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To: sweetliberty
what has actually happened is that white, western society has been conditioned to feel guilty for our superior culture and in that false sense of guilt we have allowed the encroachment of a dangerous ideology into Western society. That is as ignorant as deliberately putting yourself at risk of a deadly disease because you feel guilty for being healthy. Islam is a cultural cancer. They are what they are. They will not change. WE are the ones who have to fight the "disease" instead of facilitating it. If we fail to do so, we have no one to blame but ourselves.

BINGO! You hit the nail on the head. The cancer called Islam must be cut from the body called Western Civilization or it will the destroy the body.

117 posted on 01/19/2004 10:42:11 AM PST by Siamese Princess
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To: Siamese Princess
"I daresay the majority of white Britons AGREE with his comments, but most will not say so publicly for fear of being called "racist" -- the worst thing you can be in this day and age. "

Yep, and we need to take the wind out of the racebaiters' sails. The best way, in my opinion, to do that is to refuse to react to the term "racist." Our responses should be along the lines of "sorry you feel that way" or "so?" Or just ignoring it altogether. We need to STOP being afraid of being called racist. I think there are actually very few of us to whom it applies and those who try to defend themselves against the term are going to lose the argument anyway. That's a foregone conclusion, because the objective isn't reasonable resolution of real racial problems; it is using the term like a slaver's whip to keep us in line. No minds will be changed and you can't "prove" to such people that you're not a racist, because it is irrelevant anyway, so responsibility for that "opinion" needs to fall back on the person throwing around the term.

118 posted on 01/19/2004 10:42:12 AM PST by sweetliberty (Even the smallest person can change the course of the future. - (LOTR))
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To: sweetliberty
We need to STOP being afraid of being called racist.

What I say is "if you want to call me a racist, fine, I don't care" and just ignore it and go on.

119 posted on 01/19/2004 10:44:54 AM PST by Siamese Princess
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To: Siamese Princess
Yep. As good a way to handle it as any. The worst thing to do is react.
120 posted on 01/19/2004 10:47:02 AM PST by sweetliberty (Even the smallest person can change the course of the future. - (LOTR))
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To: Jimmy Valentine
"Wooden shoes? Dutch cleanser? Silver skates?Need some help here."

How about red-head FReepettes of Dutch descent?

121 posted on 01/19/2004 10:51:23 AM PST by sweetliberty (Even the smallest person can change the course of the future. - (LOTR))
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To: Michael2001
What a brave, wonderful man he is.
122 posted on 01/19/2004 10:52:16 AM PST by SkyPilot
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To: FLAUSA
"I'm not quite sure how to ask the question without offending anyone, but here goes."

.

You offended me! Now STOP trying not to offend anyone!

123 posted on 01/19/2004 10:57:50 AM PST by sweetliberty (Even the smallest person can change the course of the future. - (LOTR))
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To: ThirstyMan
Funny that NOBODY but John Rhys-Davies is willing to speak out against Moslem men for their exclusion of equal rights for women, especially in our PC/NOW world. Why the silence? I cannot understand why the pass is granted to Moslems. Could it be fear?

Don't forget France's infamous "Islamophobe actress", Bridget Bardot. She's been fined for "inciting racial hatred", you know. She and Rhys-Davies are two lonely voices in the PC wilderness.

124 posted on 01/19/2004 11:13:33 AM PST by Charles Martel (Liberals are the crab grass in the lawn of life.)
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To: StoneColdGOP
"And he even lives in L.A.!"

Well, nobody has good judgement on everything. ;-)

125 posted on 01/19/2004 11:15:20 AM PST by sweetliberty (Even the smallest person can change the course of the future. - (LOTR))
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To: aruanan
"What is happening there will happen in Europe if Europe doesn't take steps to prevent it."

What is happening there will happen in Europe America if Europe WE doesn't take steps to prevent it.

126 posted on 01/19/2004 11:17:00 AM PST by sweetliberty (Even the smallest person can change the course of the future. - (LOTR))
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To: strongbow
"Wish we had some like him in our entertainment culture who would fall on their sword for principle and love of country."

We do. Mel Gibson.

127 posted on 01/19/2004 11:30:48 AM PST by sweetliberty (Even the smallest person can change the course of the future. - (LOTR))
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To: Michael2001
I'm glad to hear this. I've always respected his work and his ability, now I can add his common sense to the list
128 posted on 01/19/2004 11:38:20 AM PST by tarawa
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To: Michael2001
Holy CRAP! Talk about having some BALLS!
129 posted on 01/19/2004 11:40:46 AM PST by stuck_in_new_orleans
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To: Michael2001; Valin; tubavil; Stopislamnow; SJackson; BayouCoyote; nuffsenuff; Helms; ...
STELLAR!!!
130 posted on 01/19/2004 12:32:34 PM PST by dennisw (“We'll put a boot in your ass, it's the American way.” - Toby Keith)
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To: sweetliberty
Ahem... I meant that in a complimentary way, as in "wow, he lives in the same hell I do!"

LOL.
131 posted on 01/19/2004 12:35:52 PM PST by StoneColdGOP (McClintock - In Your Heart, You Know He's Right)
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To: StoneColdGOP
I know.
132 posted on 01/19/2004 12:36:48 PM PST by sweetliberty (Even the smallest person can change the course of the future. - (LOTR))
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To: SkyPilot
Ditto here, he is as his character was in LOTR's. A man of courage, integrity, and oh so brave!!!
133 posted on 01/19/2004 1:00:23 PM PST by shellylet
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To: Jim Cane
No idea about the nose. Dwarf tossing accident?

Nobody tosses a dwarf!

134 posted on 01/19/2004 1:17:40 PM PST by magslinger (Never ascribe to malice that which can adequately be described by incompetence.)
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To: FLAUSA
I doubt it, though I could be wrong. There's a guy in my Church with the last name of Davies too.
135 posted on 01/19/2004 1:30:16 PM PST by Michael2001 (Every man lives, and every man dies, but not every man truly lives)
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To: aruanan
What is happening there will happen in Europe if Europe doesn't take steps to prevent it.

The supposedly representative governments of the West *will not* close their borders, despite the overwhelming desire of their citizens to the contrary.

Therefore, there is only ONE step we can take: Have children. Lots of them.

136 posted on 01/19/2004 1:31:01 PM PST by Rytwyng
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To: strongbow
Why is it when Pat Buchanan says essentially the same thing regarding America (you know that nation we live in) he is branded as a heretic, nazi, whacko, nutcase??

I used to like Pat, but unfortunately too many times he does come off sounding like a Nazi, whacko, nutcase.
137 posted on 01/19/2004 1:36:16 PM PST by Michael2001 (Every man lives, and every man dies, but not every man truly lives)
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To: sweetliberty
"We do. Mel Gibson."

My apologies to Mr. Gibson, perhaps he and Rhys-Davies should establish their own studio. I don't go to see a movie but once every five years or so. I would support them with my attendance at every film.

138 posted on 01/19/2004 1:37:52 PM PST by strongbow
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To: Ciexyz
I'm in agreement. ... The Muslim cultures don't want to integrate into our culture, they want us to adapt to them.

The Islamofascists remind me of Star Trek's Borg.

139 posted on 01/19/2004 2:15:43 PM PST by bootless (Never Forget)
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To: Charles Martel
Heh, heh, you said France!

Oh my! Do they have a problem! They're having to secularize their schools to defend themselves against this one religion that isn't tolerant, that discriminates, that won't assimilate, that seeks to dominate others. How un-French! ha!

Moslems evidently are in training for the "breeders" cup over there. Ha! serves the French right. The next generation will see the French nation's culture crumble from immigration without assimulation. Soon the French will not be able to pass laws aimed at the Moslem headscarf in public schools. Their houses will be fire bombed. And then what? Disaster!

Call on America? Excuse me while I yak.

140 posted on 01/19/2004 2:49:41 PM PST by ThirstyMan
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To: Charles Martel
Heh, heh Charles, you also said Bridget Bardot.

Any pictures?

141 posted on 01/19/2004 2:51:29 PM PST by ThirstyMan
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To: Salvey
No kidding, and now anything that is a Non-Christian religion or Culture is categorized as a "Race" and therefor beyond reproach.
142 posted on 01/19/2004 2:54:09 PM PST by Dead Dog
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To: ThirstyMan
Heh, heh Charles, you also said Bridget Bardot. Any pictures?

Yeah, but nothing recent.

While I applaud her recent attempts to get her countrymen to wake the f**k up, I do admit that I prefer the way she looked when I was but a young sprout. But for a few decisive battles centuries ago, the western world would've been denied a glimpse of Bridget's charms due to Sharia law.

143 posted on 01/19/2004 3:17:31 PM PST by Charles Martel (Liberals are the crab grass in the lawn of life.)
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To: sweetliberty
The worst thing to do is react.

Bob Grant on the radio has repeatedly said that most white people, when accused of racism, "fold like a cheap camera." He said don't do that!

144 posted on 01/19/2004 3:19:28 PM PST by Siamese Princess
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To: Rytwyng
The supposedly representative governments of the West *will not* close their borders, despite the overwhelming desire of their citizens to the contrary.

Ain't democracy grand? And we want to export it all around the world!

145 posted on 01/19/2004 3:26:59 PM PST by Siamese Princess
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To: sweetliberty
Great posts! Thanks

Now when will a candidate be able to say the things we all know are true instead of the "religion of peace" crap?
We are indeed engaged in an ideological war. And today's chief proponents of tolerance will be the first to be killed wherever the balance of power shifts and the tables are turned.
Looking at the curmudgeonly Ayatollah in Iraq who won't negotiate with us only confirms my frustration with this religion. They seek power as a means to dominate and control. Seems it doesn't really matter who is in power over there, they'll behave in a ruthless fashion. And tell me the roots of the problem aren't traceable back to this religion.

146 posted on 01/19/2004 3:38:30 PM PST by ThirstyMan
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To: Charles Martel
Oh my! what God has made...and it was Good!
147 posted on 01/19/2004 3:43:13 PM PST by ThirstyMan
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To: Michael2001
The world has been watching Americas race baiters and the gambits they use.. The Jesse Jacksons and Al Sharptons are teaching the worlds parasites on parasitism..
148 posted on 01/19/2004 3:45:36 PM PST by hosepipe
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To: Rytwyng
Therefore, there is only ONE step we can take: Have children. Lots of them.

Don't know if you were tongue in cheek but that is exactly the correct strategy. The irony is the elite want us to limit our population growth and abort all unwanteds. Guess what? Those unwanted pregnancies could very well supply us with the labor force that we don't have and fulfill our felt need to import. And the zero population movement only makes the immigration influx ten times worse.
This is just a statistical look at things with no value judgment at all. But of course I think unlimited abortion and unlimited immigration are both very bad ideas.

149 posted on 01/19/2004 3:51:32 PM PST by ThirstyMan
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To: ThirstyMan
Therefore, there is only ONE step we can take: Have children. Lots of them.

Don't know if you were tongue in cheek but that is exactly the correct strategy

No, I'm absolutely dead serious. I always believed this but reading Pat Buchanan's book, "The Death of the West", ferociously hardened my resolve to have a large family, no matter what sacrifices it requires.

I was married in summer 2002, and we now have a little boy: Patrick Henry [NeverMindMyLastName]. We are hoping for several more over the next few years.

As we are 40 and 36, a family of 10 or 12 just isn't possible, but 3 or 4 is certainly better than 1.8. We both would have been willing to have a much larger family, but we just didn't find each other til later in life. I wish I'd found her 20 years ago -- it sure wasn't my choice to wait this long.

150 posted on 01/19/2004 4:38:20 PM PST by Rytwyng
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