Monument at City Hall is removed (Winston-Salem)

Winston-Salem Journal ^ | 1/20/04 | Theo Helm

[Rebelbase]

City Council member Robinson placed 1-ton marker bearing Ten Commandments yesterday

A seven-man crew removed a monument of the Ten Commandments late this morning from in front of City Hall that had been illegally placed there the day before by City Council Member Vernon Robinson.

City workers removed the 1-ton marker on the order of City Manager Bill Stuart. They used a backhoe to slowly carry the two-piece monument to a trailer attached to a city truck.

Robinson was not at the scene.

The truck was taking the monument to a warehouse in the City Yard, where it would stay "until the owner comes and claims it," said Carrie Collins, the city's marketing and communications director.

Collins said she would not know how much it cost to move the monument until the crew finished. She said that city officials had not decided whether Robinson would pay for its removal.

Robinson did not return a phone call for comment. His spokesman, Chris Younce, said that Robinson was talking to city officials about the next step and would be at the city council's meeting tonight.

The monument violated two city policies. One requires any displays honoring public officials to be approved by the council. The other requires permission from the city manager to place a display in city-owned facilities.

An inscription on the monument says: "A project of Councilman Vernon L. Robinson, January 2004."

Robinson was part of the unanimous vote on Sept. 15 that approved the policies.

City officials all criticized Robinson for his action Monday, when city hall was closed and the community was celebrating Martin Luther King Jr. Day.

"Obviously if you are going to do something like this, this is not the right way to do it," Mayor Allen Joines said. "We are working hard to bring the city together. Actions like this tend to push people apart."

"This is just politics as usual," City Council Member Dan Besse said. "Another political stunt."

Robinson, a Republican candidate for the 5th Congressional District seat, has frequently been the target of complaints from his peers for grandstanding, and campaigning from his council seat.

City Attorney Ron Seeber said people who want to put a permanent marker on city property must petition the council for approval.

Robinson he didn’t get permission to put up the 4-foot granite marker because he didn’t know the procedure. Although he admitted that he has had the idea since October, he said he couldn’t find out what the procedure was because of "timing," declining to explain further.

Robinson also said that his announcement was not intended to clash with King Day celebrations. He defended his decision to act when City Hall was closed, saying that he wanted the presentation to be a "surprise to the city and citizens of Winston-Salem."

Robinson said that his idea for the marker came from a conversation with Roy Moore, the former chief justice of Alabama. Moore was ousted as chief justice last November after repeatedly refusing to remove a Ten Commandments monument from the state judicial building.

Robinson had asked the city council in September to consider a resolution requesting that Joines offer to have the Alabama monument shipped to Winston-Salem and displayed here at the expense of private donors.

No one on the council responded.

Robinson said he then decided to pay $2,000 for his own marker. David Maynard, a local Baptist preacher and monument dealer, arranged a contract for the marker, which was made in Georgia.

The Ten Commandments are inscribed on the side of the monument facing Main Street. An abbreviated version of the Bill of Rights is inscribed on the side facing City Hall. Below the Ten Commandments is an inscription that says: "A project of Councilman Vernon Robinson, January 2004."

Robinson said Monday he believes that the marker is constitutional because it is not publicly funded or overtly religious.

"This monument is not an effort to proselytize; it is a history lesson," he said. "Atheists may complain about history, but the words are still history."

Others said they believed Robinson was only out for publicity.

"I’m afraid my colleague has neglected to read the Second Commandment," Besse said. "He has made himself a graven image to political ambition."

If getting publicity was behind Robinson’s actions, he would not acknowledge it Monday.

"I don’t know that it will have any effect on the campaign," he said.

Robinson’s opponents weren’t so sure. Although they said they supported the public display of the Ten Commandments, several said they didn’t like how Robinson went about it.

"I don’t know that this kind of grandstanding promotes the understanding of our heritage," said state Sen. Virginia Foxx of Banner Elk. She said the monument would be more sincere if it was erected by someone who isn’t running for office.

[Rebelbase]

Robinson got his $2000 worth of publicity.

[Rebelbase]

NC ping please.

[Constitution Day]

Wow, that was quick.

Hitting the NC list now...

[Constitution Day]

NC ping!
Please FRmail me if you want to be added to or removed from this North Carolina ping list.

[Modernman]

What a waste of time. Wonder if there's a way to impeach or recall this idiot.

[ConservativeGadfly]

City Council meeting tonight in Winston Salem at 6:30 PM.

It ain't over yet.

[ConservativeGadfly]

And by the way, it was not, as the article said, "illegally placed." The City Attorney has not been able to cite one ordinance that determines that the monument was "illegally placed."

[Doctor Stochastic]

Robinson he didn’t get permission to put up the 4-foot granite marker because he didn’t know the procedure.

Reporter he didn't get job because he didn't know the grammar.

[Constitution Day]

Thanks for the info.

[Future Snake Eater]

Who? Robinson?

[azhenfud]

"Atheists may complain about history..."

How prophetically spoken. Now his monument's history.

[NCSteve]

"What a waste of time. Wonder if there's a way to impeach or recall this idiot."

So says you. You sound like the RINOs in the Forsyth County GOP organization.

Vernon made his point. The only waste of time was committed by the City in removing it. There will be local repercussions, count on it.

[billbears]

What a waste of time

Yeah, big waste of time. Imagine, someone that still thinks you can display the Ten Commandments, and in public even < /sarcasm>

This gentleman is standing up to his name as the next Jesse Helms. Just disappointed he's not running for Senate in 2004. Well perhaps he could be convinced to replace the Senator that's up for reelection in 2008

[Modernman]

Who? Robinson?

Yup. I'm not attacking his religious beliefs- I'm attacking his placing of a monument on public property without any authority to do so. I think I'll go down to the courthouse and place a personal monument tonight....

[azhenfud]

"It ain't over yet."

True, the monument may be gone, but Robinson will be remembered as a monumental guy.

[Modernman]

Vernon made his point. The only waste of time was committed by the City in removing it. There will be local repercussions, count on it.

Yup. His point being- Republicans can grandstand as well as Democrats.

[Modernman]

Yeah, big waste of time. Imagine, someone that still thinks you can display the Ten Commandments, and in public even

You're free to put up the TC in public. You're not free to do it on public land without, at the very least, the permission of the public entity that owns that land. What gives him the right to do so? If he can put this monument up, why can't every other citizen put up whatever they want on public property?

[NCSteve]

"I'm attacking his placing of a monument on public property without any authority to do so."

So you worship at the altar of the almighty bureaucracy. Vernon happens to worship at a different altar.

Why would he need permission to put up something like that in a place that he (along with the rest of us) supposedly owns?

[kingu]

I suppose that the litter laws wouldn't apply, though I consider this to be a solid waste of time. He puts a four foot tall slab of stone in the middle of the walkway, centered with the steps of the building.

If this was a gay veteran memorial, everyone would be screaming about it. He wanted attention and fame and to cash in on Judge Roy's bandwagon. Probably the best $2000 he ever spent.

[Future Snake Eater]

Well, like ConservativeGadfly mentioned, there has yet to be a city ordinance dug up that prohibits his doing so. Until then it smacks of your average Christian-hunt. SSDD from our elected officials, the purveyors of "equality" and "freedom."

[skeeter]

I'm attacking his placing of a monument on public property without any authority to do so.

As opposed to what might be placed on public property with authority to do so?

[Modernman]

Why would he need permission to put up something like that in a place that he (along with the rest of us) supposedly owns?

I'm okay with that, so long as everyone else gets to put up whatever they want on public property. Including, but not limited to, a giant statue of Hillary, and a 10,000 pound copy of the Koran.

Be careful what you wish for.

[gdani]

Why would he need permission to put up something like that in a place that he (along with the rest of us) supposedly owns?

With no permission or notice, I'm coming to your town to erect a monument to Hillary in the town square.

But that's OK, right?

[gdani]

....a giant statue of Hillary, and a 10,000 pound copy of the Koran.

Be careful what you wish for.

Your reference to a Hillary statue beat mine by 1 minute.

I guess we were both thinking worst-case scenario.........

[Modernman]

Well, like ConservativeGadfly mentioned, there has yet to be a city ordinance dug up that prohibits his doing so.

Simple trespass might cover it. Or, perhaps, littering.

Until then it smacks of your average Christian-hunt.

Do you think nobody would have moved a giant monument placed by, say, an atheist? Nobody went after this guy- he decided to pick a fight.

[Dimensio]

So you worship at the altar of the almighty bureaucracy.

Would you find it acceptable if it had been a monument to Hinduism placed?

[Modernman]

As opposed to what might be placed on public property with authority to do so?

A good example of the concrete turd school of modern sculpture. Geez, that's ugly. Where is that thing located?

[TaxRelief]

What fun! All in 24 hours, too!

I hope they figure out a GREAT place to put the monument.

[Modernman]

Your reference to a Hillary statue beat mine by 1 minute.

Great minds think alike.

I guess we were both thinking worst-case scenario

No, the worst-case scenario would be a giant NUDE sculpture of Hillary.

[ConservativeGadfly]

This country wasn't founded on Hinduism. Exactly which of the Ten Commandments do you have a problem with?

[cajun-jack]

clash with King day?? I would think that Dr. King would certainly approve of the ten commandments.

I can understand why the city would want to prevent a lawsuit but sooner or later we have to start fighting the idiot lawyers or we will be out of the game altogether!!!!

[gdani]

No, the worst-case scenario would be a giant NUDE sculpture of Hillary.

No -- a nude statue of Helen Thomas or Madeliene Albright........

[Future Snake Eater]

Do you think nobody would have moved a giant monument placed by, say, an atheist? Nobody went after this guy- he decided to pick a fight.

Yeah, but in case you hadn't noticed, atheists aren't the most convenient or targeted punching bags. The ACLU isn't suing atheists left and right. Atheist ideology (now there's an oxymoron) isn't castigated at every turn by those who disagree with it. Christians and our ideals are banned/burned at every turn (depending on geographic location).

Simple trespass might cover it. Or, perhaps, littering.

LOL...I'd love to see the prosecution comparing a one-ton monument to God's Law with someone dropping a hamburger wrapper on the sidewalk.

[Modernman]

This country wasn't founded on Hinduism.

So, only Christians are free to put up items on public land without permission from the entity that owns the land? Got it. All right, all non-Christians, to the back of the bus. Thanks you.

[kingu]

Hey, you know, if this does somehow stand up, I'm going to start taking up collections and set up monuments of my own around city hall..

On the side facing the street - "This building and everything inside it was paid for by your tax dollars. See if they thank you when you go inside." On the side facing the building - "Keep your hands off my wallet!"

[gdani]

Exactly which of the Ten Commandments do you have a problem with?

From a Govt standpoint, I have a problem with all but two (killing & stealing).

The other 8 -- particularly the first 4 -- have nothing at all do with Govt or our judicial system.

[ConservativeGadfly]

Didn't say anything of the kind, my friend. I could care less if a one ton monument of the Torah or the Koran is put up. Fine by me.

What I object to is the wholescale eradication of anything Christian in the public discourse.

[PAR35]

City Council Member Dan Besse said. "Another political stunt."

Besse seems to have called this one correctly.

[skeeter]

Its a rendering of the deity nearest & dearest to the hearts of all San Joseans, the Aztec snake god Quetzalcoatl.

San Jose's ruling elite actually saw fit to spend my tax dollars on this metallic pile of 'doggie squeeze'.

[azhenfud]

"No, the worst-case scenario would be a giant NUDE sculpture of Hillary."

Well, there goes the discussion. Are you gonna report yourself for abuse? ;-)

[Dimensio]

This country wasn't founded on Hinduism.

Which is irrelevant to the current list of complaints on this discussion, the most prominent being that no one can prove that it was "illegally placed". A monument to Hinduism placed in the same way should, according to some of the people here, have as much legal protection as a monument to the Ten Commandments.

Exactly which of the Ten Commandments do you have a problem with?

I assume that you're asking about individual commandments rather than asking which of the three sets of "Ten Commandments" I don't like, since most people who support putting up displays of the Ten Commandments don't even seem to know that there's more than one list.

Thou shalt have no other gods before me is rather monotheistic. As a atheist, of course, it's less important to me since I don't have any gods anywhere, but it's certainly a rude thing to tell a polytheist -- after all (and much to your chagrin, I'm sure), polytheism is legal in this country. Still, I do have a problem with someone ordering me to "keep holy the Sabbath". That's not my religion, you keep it holy!

[INSENSITIVE GUY]

Those that are hellbent to remove THE TEN COMMANDMENTS are unAmerican,unpatriotic,religion hating BIGOTS!These people are in the minority in this country and DO NOT COUNT.They DO NOT deserve to live in this country.

[Dimensio]

A hamburger wrapper is easier and less expensive to clean up.

[Modernman]

Christians and our ideals are banned/burned at every turn

Please point out an example of Christians or their ideals being banned/burned in this country. And by banned/burned, I mean that Christians were actually prevented from practicing their beliefs or persecuted for doing so.

If you want to see Christians being persecuted, look at Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan etc.

The ACLU isn't suing atheists left and right.

What have atheists done lately that could be construed as an establishment of religion by the government?

[Dimensio]

Those that are hellbent to remove THE TEN COMMANDMENTS are unAmerican,unpatriotic,religion hating BIGOTS!These people are in the minority in this country and DO NOT COUNT.They DO NOT deserve to live in this country.

What a well-reasoned, logical argument you've made. I'm thorougly convinced by this stunning display of rational thought.

[Dimensio]

What have atheists done lately that could be construed as an establishment of religion by the government?

Many of them oppose government endorsement of Christianity. To some Christians, not having the government specifically endorse their religion is tantamount to suppressing their right to express their religion -- apparently a sacred tenet of their Christianity is shoving it into everyone's face through government edict.

[azhenfud]

My, you sure are insensitive.

[Modernman]

San Jose's ruling elite actually saw fit to spend my tax dollars on this metallic pile of 'doggie squeeze'.

Yeesh. My condolences. Whoever made this thing, and whoever spent city funds on it, should be charged with aesthetic assault.

[ConservativeGadfly]

Read "Persecution" by David Limbaugh. Probably one of the best compilations of the countless examples of anti-Christian bigotry I have read. Very well done.

[ConservativeGadfly]

Read "Persecution" by David Limbaugh. Probably one of the best compilations of the countless examples of anti-Christian bigotry I have read. Very well done.