THE FALL OF THE ATHENIAN REPUBLIC

Historic | 1787 | Alexander Tyler

[FlyLow]

At about the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler - a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinburgh - had this to say about "The Fall of the Athenian Republic" some 2,000 years prior:

THE FALL OF THE ATHENIAN REPUBLIC... "A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."

"The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

From bondage to spiritual faith; From spiritual faith to great courage; From courage to liberty; From liberty to abundance, From abundance to complacency; From complacency to apathy, From apathy to dependence, From dependence back into bondage."

Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law, St. Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning the most recent American Presidential election:

Population of counties won by: Gore 127 million Bush 143 million

Square miles of land won by: Gore 580,000 Bush 2,427,000

States won by: Gore 19 Bush 29

Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by: Gore 13.2 Bush 2.1

Professor Olson believes the aggregate map of the territory Bush won was mostly land owned by taxpayers. Gore's territory encompassed all of the dense population centers, where a larger proportion of citizens are dependent upon government support.

Olson believes the U.S. is now somewhere between the "apathy" and the "complacency" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy; with some 40 percent of the nation's population already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase.

[PetroniDE]

Olson believes the U.S. is now somewhere between the "apathy" and the "complacency" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy; with some 40 percent of the nation's population already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase.

Of that 40%, some have gone from dependency back into bondage. Those that depend on the government only are in dependency. Those that depend and vote blindly for democrats based on false promises are already in bondage.

[RebelBanker]

Based on the title, I was kind of wondering why this is in News/Activism since the subject civilization fell quite some time ago. Reading into it, I do see the point however. Interesting...

[PatrickHenry]

Bump.

[Williams]

I think the Romans missed the Liberty phase. Some conservatives love to recite this stuff. Democracy doesn't work because people vote themselves benefits. This leads to dictatorship. So we should do exactly what about this? There is no immediate sign that even the socialist countries in Europe are on the verge of despotism. They are mediocre, but they are not collapsing. I suppose we're supposed to stop all the government spending, but according to this theory that's an impossibility due to human nature.

[aristeides]

Athenian democracy can only be thought to have lasted only 200 years if you consider it to have ended when Athens lost its total independence at the end of the 4th century B.C. But in fact Athenian democratic institutions lasted much longer, through to the early 1st century B.C., when Sulla abolished them, through the period when Athens was a semi-independent satellite state, first of Macedon, then of one or the other of the Hellenistic monarchies, and finally of Rome. There was a brief oligarchic interlude in the late 4th century B.C., but there had been two oligarchic interludes during the Peloponnesian War, in the late 5th century B.C. Since democracy was restored after all these brief interludes, it makes more sense to consider Athenian democracy to have lasted from the reforms of Cleisthenes, in the late 6th century, to Sulla, in the early 1st century B.C. Altogether, that's over 400 years.

[Gorjus]

So we should do exactly what about this?

Go read Santayana for one. ("Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.")

Even if the trend is inevitable, like alcoholics we can try to get one more good day before things collapse. And who knows, maybe history doesn't have to repeat itself.

However, for your specific question: Vote against the socialists, even if you have a hard time voting for the lesser of two evils. Become active by writing letters to the editor in your local paper. Do the research to weed out the socialists-in-moderate-clothing, then volunteer to help in a candidate's campaign. Grab a sign and march around outside a Democratic congrescritter's local office. Do what you can, instead of wishing someone else would (and yes, I've done every one of the things I've identified, and as a result I've been interviewed on some of our local TV stations - there are pictures in the Freeper archives to prove it). If one more state, one more county, one more precinct, one more voter is convinced the march toward socialism is a bad idea, it's better than the other way around.

[labard1]

Tyler's main point ("A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship.") is still correct.

[labard1]

You're absolutely right, and the metaphor of the alcoholic trying for one more good day is quite apt.

[WVNan]

Sort of makes you glad that America is not a democracy doesn't it?

[Dead Corpse]

No such book. No such qoute.

Check Edinburgh Universities website FAQ. Tytler never said it that anyone can find an actual source for.

Let's not give freedoms enemies any more ammo than they already have.

[Dead Corpse]

Sort of makes you glad that America is not a democracy doesn't it?

We didn't used to be. However, it can be argued that we are NOW.

[BabsC]

This wasn't so much of a problem before the 17th Amendment.

I can see where the change from appointed Senators to elected Senators basically gives us 2 Congresses and no house. (no representative for the state but twice representative for the people)

However, the 16th Amendment was "supposedly" ratified the same year. 1913 is a year in government that really needs closer examination.

[skip2myloo]

PING

[skip2myloo]

Maybe not, but in 1841 in The American Democracy Alexis d'Tocqueville warned:

"The American Republic will endure until the politicians learn they can bribe the people with their own money."

[LN2Campy]

Athenian "democracy" was more like a broad oligarchy, given that the proportion of the population entitled to vote was VERY small, and entire classes of people were disenfranchised (Metics, slaves, women, non-property owners...)

[skip2myloo]

Or - a recent bumper sticker:

Vote Democrat - It Beats Working

[hosepipe]

[ I think the Romans missed the Liberty phase. Some conservatives love to recite this stuff. Democracy doesn't work because people vote themselves benefits. This leads to dictatorship. So we should do exactly what about this? There is no immediate sign that even the socialist countries in Europe are on the verge of despotism. They are mediocre, but they are not collapsing. I suppose we're supposed to stop all the government spending, but according to this theory that's an impossibility due to human nature. ]

Confused, eh!... Marx nailed it... "The Dictatorship of the Proletariat".. you must of missed that.. Looking for dictators can be tricky...

[demnomo]

Thought this might interest you...