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Why You Should Support Bush's Immigration Proposal
GOPUSA ^ | 01.23.04 | J. Max Wilson

Posted on 01/23/2004 4:37:58 PM PST by Beck_isright

Critics of President Bush's immigration reform proposal have been so quick to label it an amnesty plan in sheep's clothing that they have missed the subtle brilliance of his approach to a very complex problem. Let's look at some of the complex issues of illegal immigration and evaluate the President's proposal in relation to them.

Contrary to what many pundits seem concerned with, the main problem with illegal immigration in the United States is not its influence on the job market but its relationship to organized crime. In an article for the City-Journal's Winter 2004 edition entitled "The Illegal-Alien Crime Wave," Heather Mac Donald provides an in-depth and disturbing look at this relationship:

"95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide in L.A., which total 1,200 to 1,500, target illegal aliens and up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens."

"A confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the 20,000-strong 18th Street Gang in southern California is illegal; police officers say the proportion is actually much greater. The bloody gang collaborates with the Mexican Mafia, the dominant force in California prisons, on complex drug-distribution schemes, extortion, and drive-by assassinations, and commits an assault or robbery every day in L.A. County. The gang has grown dramatically over the last two decades by recruiting recently arrived youngsters, most of them illegal, from Central America and Mexico."

"The leadership of the Columbia Lil' Cycos gang, which uses murder and racketeering to control the drug market around L.A.'s MacArthur Park, was about 60 percent illegal in 2002, says former assistant U.S. attorney Luis Li. Francisco Martinez, a Mexican Mafia member and an illegal alien, controlled the gang from prison, while serving time for felonious reentry following deportation."

As if that weren't bad enough, in an article carried by the Salt Lake Tribune on December 18th, David Kelly gives us a chilling view of a new development in Arizona crime:

"Moving with the cunning and cruelty of modern-day pirates, gangs of kidnappers are swooping down on Arizona highways, attacking smugglers transporting undocumented immigrants and stealing their human cargo. The kidnappers stash the immigrants in hundreds of drop houses scattered around the city, using violence and threats to extort money from their relatives."

"Now smugglers are fighting back, shooting it out with kidnappers on sidewalks and freeways in broad daylight. A gunbattle last month between kidnappers and smugglers on Interstate 10 at the height of rush hour left four dead. Four others were killed this month in the desert near Phoenix; authorities blamed the deaths on violence between the two groups."

"Kidnappers let smugglers take all the risks of getting immigrants into the country, then rob them once they get here. When they can't intercept smugglers on the road, they snatch migrants from houses where they are known to be hiding. The new wave of violence has made this the deadliest year in Phoenix history with 247 homicides, edging out the previous high of 245 in 2001. Police say 60 percent of the city's crime is related to smuggling and kidnapping."

As these articles demonstrate, a significant portion of crime in our big cities is perpetuated by illegal immigrants. But, as you can also see from David Kelly's article, the victims of these crimes are often also illegal immigrants. This creates a disastrous situation because victims of these and other crimes will not report them for fear of being deported. Vast numbers of illegal immigrants suffer severe abuse, extortion, and virtual slavery at the hands of organized crime and cannot report it for fear of deportation. So the crimes go unreported and the criminals unstopped.

To counteract this problem, many local city governments have adopted "sanctuary policies." These city policies prohibit employees of local government, including law enforcement officers, from inquiring after the immigration status of anyone. Often, even if a police officer knows that a particular individual has entered the country illegally (a misdemeanor) or has previously been deported and has returned illegally (a felony) he or she is forbidden by city statute from arresting that person. Police officers are even forbidden from reporting known illegal immigrants to the federal authorities.

While these policies are supposedly adopted to protect the illegal immigrants who are victims of crime and encourage them to report crimes without the fear of deportation, they have the secondary effect of protecting criminals who are illegal immigrants as well. Even if the police know of an individual with connections to organized crime and a past criminal record, and they know that he is in the country illegally, they are forbidden from using his illegal status to arrest him and deport him. In fact, a police officer can face disciplinary action for arresting someone based upon their immigration status or for reporting them to the INS. Many crimes that might have been prevented by deporting known illegal immigrants are left undeterred because the police cannot use their illegal status to deport them until they have already been booked for a different felony.

Such policies blatantly undermine federal immigration law. Heather Mac Donald explains in her City-Journal article:

"Former mayor Rudolph Giuliani sued all the way up to the Supreme Court to defend the city's sanctuary policy against a 1996 federal law decreeing that cities could not prohibit their employees from cooperating with the INS. Oh yeah? said Giuliani; just watch me. The INS, he claimed, with what turned out to be grotesque irony, only aims to "terrorize people." Though he lost in court, he remained defiant to the end. On September 5, 2001, his handpicked charter-revision committee ruled that New York could still require that its employees keep immigration information confidential to preserve trust between immigrants and government. Six days later, several visa-overstayers participated in the most devastating attack on the city and the country in history."

After September 11th there was outrage over the failure of Federal agencies to prevent the tragedy. And yet the possible contribution of mayor Giuliani's New York City sanctuary policy to September 11th has not been discussed by the mainstream media. While it may be appropriate to inquire into the failures of the federal government in the September 11th attacks, shouldn't there be an equal amount of outrage and demand for investigation into the role of city sanctuary policies? And yet over two years later the majority of the population of the United States isn't even aware that such policies exist.

Despite federal law and September 11th, this outrageous situation is still very common. Sanctuary policies are in effect in at least eighteen cities, including New York, Chicago, San Diego, Los Angeles, Austin, Houston, Minneapolis, Baltimore, and Seattle and in two states, Alaska and Oregon.

Since 1998, the city of St. Paul Minnesota has had a police policy that prohibits officers from "independently undertaking to approach, interview, interrogate or arrest any suspected illegal alien" when the main issue is immigration status violation. And, amazingly, this very month, the St. Paul city council is considering adopting an additional measure known as the "INS/City Separation Ordinance."

Why have the sanctuary laws of our nation's largest cities been so ignored by the mainstream media? You would think that even if they were completely neglected in the aftermath of September 11th, they would at least be addressed in relation to President Bush's proposed changes to immigration. The relationship between illegal immigration, sanctuary policies, and organized crime should be a major issue. Yet the mainstream media is still largely silent on the matter. Instead, they spend hours of airtime, newsprint, and bandwidth discussing how Bush's proposal will affect jobs, and whether it will encourage more illegal immigration. I suspect the media's silence is largely due to political correctness. To discuss any relationship between illegal immigration and crime would be labeled "racist" by the media language police faster than you can say "Francisco Martinez."

There is another group that also deserves a portion of the blame pie. The readiness of U.S. businesses to break the law by employing undocumented workers for the sake of avoiding taxes and paying lower wages is deplorable. If U.S. businesses would uniformly refuse to hire illegal immigrants it would help discourage illegal immigration by taking away some of their motivation. The situation is exacerbated by current immigration policies. Because foreign workers can only work in the United States for a very limited duration, companies that hire foreigners and obey the law must hire new workers on a very frequent basis. That makes it more difficult for them to compete with companies that are willing to break the law and hire illegal immigrants and thereby avoid the extra expense of frequently hiring and training new employees, not to mention taxation, worker's compensation, insurance and minimum wages.

The greatest danger to our nation is, in part, the result of widespread lawbreaking by businesses and law nullification by city governments. Conservatives seem ready to condemn the illegal immigrants who come seeking work and often advocate the harshest punishments for them (i.e. shooting them at the border) while at the same time barely hand-slapping the lawbreaking businesses and ignoring city sanctuary policies designed to undermine federal immigration law. This hypocrisy contributes to the unfortunate impression that conservatives are racists.

Under these circumstances, it is simply impossible for the Federal Government to enforce immigration laws. Even if the cities and businesses were cooperating, there is no way the federal government could muster the manpower and the funds necessary to identify, capture, and deport the vast numbers of illegal immigrants and then keep them out.

The immigration system is clearly broken and casting the blame on the Federal government alone is a huge oversimplification and misdirection of energy. Critics of the failure of the U.S. to enforce its immigration laws should direct their ire toward local governments that are endangering our nation with their ill-conceived and illegal sanctuary law.

How does President Bush's proposal relate to this immigration headache?

Rather than develop a detailed, specific plan for immigration reform, Bush wisely proposed principles upon which reform must be based if it is to be successful:

1. "America must control its borders...America is acting on a basic belief: Our borders should be open to legal travel and honest trade; our borders should be shut and barred tight to criminals, to drug traders, drug traffickers and to criminals and to terrorists."

2. "New immigration laws should serve the economic needs of our country. If an American employer is offering a job that American citizens are not willing to take, we ought to welcome into our country a person who will fill that job."

3. "We should not give unfair rewards to illegal immigrants in the citizenship process or disadvantage those who came here lawfully or hope to do so."

4. "New laws should provide incentives for temporary foreign workers to return permanently to their home countries after their period of work in the United States has expired."

By focusing on principles rather than specific plans, Bush provides a much more realistic and flexible approach to reform. The principles remain constant while the specific implementation may change according to how well it adheres to those principles.

The first principle and primary concern is about controlling the borders. Currently, city and state sanctuary policies completely thwart any attempt to apply this principle. The cities justify their sanctuary laws as a necessary measure to allow illegal immigrants who are victims of crimes to report them without fear of deportation. By allowing undocumented workers to receive a legal, temporary worker status, Bush's proposal takes away that necessity and leaves city sanctuary policies without justification. Under Bush's plan anybody who has an honest employment would have temporary worker status. All remaining illegal immigrants, lacking honest employment, could be assumed to be criminals and police officers could demand immigration documentation from anyone and arrest and deport anyone based solely on their immigration status.



In his proposal, President Bush explained:

"Our homeland will be more secure when we can better account for those who enter our country."

"Instead of the current situation, in which millions of people are unknown, unknown to the law, law enforcement will face fewer problems with undocumented workers, and will be better able to focus on the true threats to our nation from criminals and terrorists."

"And when temporary workers can travel legally and freely, there will be more efficient management of our borders and more effective enforcement against those who pose a true threat to our country."

By eliminating the excuse for sanctuary policies, Bush's principle-based plan would then allow local law enforcement to freely cooperate with federal authorities to control our national borders. The Bush proposal makes it possible for federal immigration authorities to focus their limited resources on those who pose the greatest threat to our domestic security: organized criminals. Contrary to the characterization it has received, Bush's proposal allows for more strict enforcement of immigration law and greater control over our national borders by facilitating the repeal of city sanctuary laws.

A related benefit of Bush's proposal is that without city sanctuary policies, law enforcement officers who apprehend illegal immigrants would be able to more easily identify businesses that break the law. Any organization or company that continued to employ undocumented immigrants rather than temporary workers would be suspected of involvement in organized crime or of supporting terrorism and could be investigated and dismantled.

The implementation of Bush's immigration proposal could eliminate a significant amount of crime in our large cities. It could be a significant blow to crime organizations, drug and weapons trafficking, and organizations that covertly support terror. It could help us control our borders to keep criminals and terrorists out.

Bush's proposal is not a scheme to appeal to Hispanic voters. It is a well informed, strategic move calculated to undermine the forces that are currently preventing our immigration laws from being enforced and endangering our nation. Bush's proposal is a brilliant move in a complex chess game. We should support him and encourage our representatives to support his proposal.


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Government; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: aliens; amnesty; crime; illegalalien; immigrantlist; immigration; immigrationplan
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There you go gang. The party line. Fixing the problem via pacification.
1 posted on 01/23/2004 4:37:58 PM PST by Beck_isright
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To: *immigrant_list; A Navy Vet; Lion Den Dan; Free the USA; Libertarianize the GOP; madfly; B4Ranch; ..
Ping....barf....ping.....barf....
2 posted on 01/23/2004 4:39:28 PM PST by Beck_isright ("Those who stand for nothing fall for anything."-Alexander Hamilton)
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To: Beck_isright
>>they have missed the subtle brilliance of his approach

Those opposed to this proposal are just too damned stooopid.

Basically, that's the long and short of it.

Maybe if you start calling it an AMNESTY for Employers of illegals......

Man. this crowd really needs to start reading Dale Carnegie again.
3 posted on 01/23/2004 4:40:25 PM PST by swarthyguy
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To: Beck_isright; HiJinx; janetgreen; FITZ; gubamyster; SandRat; WRhine; joesnuffy; B4Ranch; ...
Bump and Ping.
4 posted on 01/23/2004 4:41:22 PM PST by Missouri
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To: Beck_isright
Sorry, this is not going to wash with the Republican base no matter what the "party line" may be!

The GOP Had darned well better oppose the Presidents so-called "Guest Worker plan", State of the Union push or no because it is going to hurt the President, his re-election, the Republican Party and the country. I am sure the president is loosing millions of dollars and many votes over this. His poll numbers took a big hit regarding support this past week and it is no wonder why, this is an insane proposal and provides NO homeland security at all.

I received a call after he made his announcement from the RNC asking for money, we have supported the president, his father and Bob Dole's bid and worked for the RNC candidate for the last two elections here in New Hampshire. My response to their call for money: "Let the President get the money from the ILLEGAL immigrants". I then blasted them over this ridiculous policy along with the President (and the "Republican" Parties) unwillingness to genuinely fight for the President's judicial nominees. As long as they subscribe to "gentlemen’s filibusters" instead of the real thing, and illegals over American citizens, they will not get a dime from us. I am sure we are just a sample of the conservative base and others within the Republican Party who have had it. I am tired of having our voting block taken for granted.

I have nothing but the utmost respect for President Bush and pray for him daily, but I can not support policies that are going bankrupt America and to enslave our sons and daughters along with all future generations of Americans to support illegal immigrants, with free jobs, free health care, free college tuition and social security bennies after 18 months all so that he can make kissy points with Vincene Fox, and the Hispanic population here and in South America.

Our oldest son incurred a debt of $40k and our youngest will end up owing over $60k just to pay for his college education, and I do not know about you but we have to PAY for the healthcare we receive and if we do not have it, we have to get it. There are no free rides for Americans but for illegals...cue the music: "everything free in America... ok by me in America".

Our oldest son just graduated last year and is working as a computer programmer... his job is in jeopardy of being "outsourced" to a third world hell hole where people subsist on slave wages, but hey it is America and according to the president foreigners are being given the jobs that "Americans do not want to do".

The president may get 4 more years with such a ploy, but American CITIZENS/taxpayers and future generations of us will be paying for it the rest of our lives... FOREVER because once "entitlements" are established, they are NEVER rescinded, .... NEVER! I, and multitudes of other sane Republicans cannot and will not be a party to this.

Nothing he said tonight in the State of the Union Address in anyway changes my view of his overall "plan". It is bad for America, bad for our families, bad for our economy and bad for our national security.

Like I said, let the President and the RNC get the money for his reelection from Vincente Fox and the illegals, because they will not get it from us.

One more thing before I end, with American companies outsourcing high-tech jobs to India, China, etc... to asve a buck. What makes anyone in America believe, given the opportunity these same companies will turn around, lower the wages they are have been paying to hard working Americans by half and then offer those slave-wage jobs that "Americans are unwilling to take" to illegal aliens, opps my bad I meant to say "Guest Workers" who will be more than happy to slave, then take the money out of the country back to whatever third world hole they come from?

326 posted on 01/20/2004 9:57:49 PM PST by Jmouse007 (Tired of the Powell doctrine)

5 posted on 01/23/2004 4:42:20 PM PST by Jmouse007 (Tired of the Powell doctrine)
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To: Beck_isright
As these articles demonstrate, a significant portion of crime in our big cities is perpetuated by illegal immigrants. But, as you can also see from David Kelly's article, the victims of these crimes are often also illegal immigrants. This creates a disastrous situation because victims of these and other crimes will not report them for fear of being deported. Vast numbers of illegal immigrants suffer severe abuse, extortion, and virtual slavery at the hands of organized crime and cannot report it for fear of deportation. So the crimes go unreported and the criminals unstopped.

Yup! Right after the Bush amnesty goes into effect all those criminals are just going to turn themselves in so that we know who to go after when they commit a crime. Geeez. This is so ridiculous it makes sense. Aw rats! I'm all confused now.

6 posted on 01/23/2004 4:45:37 PM PST by raybbr
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To: Jmouse007
Keep posting logical stuff and nobody will reply to you. Knock the economics knowledge level down about six points to stay in the game.
7 posted on 01/23/2004 4:46:36 PM PST by B4Ranch ( Dear Mr. President, Sir, Are you listening to the voters?)
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No problem. Here's a quick fix while they work out a better one.

Maintain the bottom line number of immigrants entering the US:
Decrease the number of legal immigrants by subtracting the estimated number of illegal immigrants annually. The bottom line is maintained. Both political parties can agree.

Amnesties can be handled in the same way at no increase in the size/cost of government:
If ten million illegal immigrants are given amnesty, decrease legal immigration across the board by ten million. Potential immigrants from France, Somolia, Paraguay, Holland, Zimbabwe, Lapland, Russia, etc will have to wait longer or miss out. The affected countries can argue it out with the offending countries with little or no US involvement. Both parties can agree. Lawyers may be big losers.

Border control:
Effective border control will seriously reduce illegal immigration and minimize the need for future amnesties. Any additional costs incurred may offset by implementing the above mentioned measures.

8 posted on 01/23/2004 4:47:04 PM PST by Consort
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To: Beck_isright
At best this article is extremely naive. If organized crime is behind this ---- how does issuing blue cards which can be forged and sold and stolen address that problem? If they can't stop the organized criminals now --- nothing changes --- they're still out there.

Also there just won't be enough legal jobs for all those in Mexico who would want them. Our economy isn't adding 3 million jobs a year.
9 posted on 01/23/2004 4:47:29 PM PST by FITZ
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To: Beck_isright
Pathetic. If crime is the "REAL" problem amnesty supposedly addresses, why not close up the porous border and deport the criminals?

Obviously the over riding concern is not crime. We could easily close the supposedly porous border is we had the cojones. No, the real reason for amnesty is to ensure a continuous supply of cheap labor and demonRat future voters.

Besides that, we're all gonna be one big happy Familia soon, when the borders get erased.

¡El problema resolvió!

10 posted on 01/23/2004 4:48:10 PM PST by JOAT
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To: Beck_isright
If only Bush had explained it so well.

I have given $ to GOP in obvious losing causes (and FR, hopefully not such a cause)but not until they become other than Rinos will they see another penny or another vote.

Really, what's the difference.
11 posted on 01/23/2004 4:49:03 PM PST by bigeggo
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To: Beck_isright; Flyer; dix; Xenalyte; bobbyd; PetroniDE; Eaker; humblegunner; Allegra
You know looking at this article brings a few colorful thoughts to mind...

The one that stands out the most...

Zero-Tolerance

If that policy is good fer the children, then its got to be good to apply to this issue...

I am still not convinced that the direction presented by President Bush is the best course...I think that whatever it is, it is an election year ploy/strategy...And not that that is a bad thing, I just think its another feeble attempt by our government to poorly implement a policy that will not work, and will become more of a burden on those having to enforce it...

So if the banditos are jacking up shipments of illegals on our highways, on our side of the border, we obviously are continuing to fail in the laws that ARE on the books that need to be enforced...

I'll probably have more later, but I got dinner on the table now...BRB

Later,
Steve
12 posted on 01/23/2004 4:49:23 PM PST by stevie_d_64 (Houston Area Texans)
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To: Beck_isright
This article does not offer one reason for the President's program which would not be better served by the much tougher approach that most of us advocate. Closing the border to all immigration, but a small alotment for people with exceptional skills and credentials, and shipping every illegal back, when captured, would meet every rational argument the writer has.

As for his concern that such an approach would convince the Left that we are "racists?" In that he simply mirrors the Leftist hissing approach. Throughout my lifetime, they have hissed their litany of insults, "racist," "nativist," "bigot," "xenophobe," etc., every time any one questions one of their programs or ideas on the subject of race or ethnicity, for which they have no rational argument. We need to stop letting slogan hurling demagogues and bullies intimidate us. If we don't stop being intimidated by the hissing approach, we are going to lose our heritage. (And see How To Recognize The Bigot In The Argument, as well as Immigration & The American Future.)

William Flax

13 posted on 01/23/2004 4:49:43 PM PST by Ohioan
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To: JOAT
Until 1965, we had a guest worker program. It was killed by the Johnson Administration to pay off the AFL-CIO.

Until 1965, we had a very small illegal immigration problem. After 1965, we had a HUGE illegal immigration problem.

I submit that the two are a study in cause and effect.
14 posted on 01/23/2004 4:50:01 PM PST by Poohbah ("Beware the fury of a patient man" -- John Dryden)
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To: Beck_isright
Barf is right. I see no mention of the Atzlan revolutionaries in this piece. I called the RNC and told them I, as a Republican, feel that the party has "stabbed Americans in the back" with their support of this proposal.
15 posted on 01/23/2004 4:51:50 PM PST by Zipporah (Write inTancredo in 2004)
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To: JOAT
" If crime is the "REAL" problem amnesty supposedly addresses, why not close up the porous border and deport the criminals?".. Are you saying common sense should be used? Gosh what the heck is wrong with you??
16 posted on 01/23/2004 4:53:32 PM PST by Zipporah (Write inTancredo in 2004)
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To: Beck_isright
This is some serious wishful thinking on someone's part...Nice try though...

17 posted on 01/23/2004 4:54:04 PM PST by Iscool
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To: Beck_isright
True, we could adapt GW's stunningly clever & complex plan

...or we could fall back on plan B (which worked well enough for decades) ENFORCE THE FRIGGEN LAWS ALREADY ON THE BOOKS.

Geez luise, they really think we're that stupid.

18 posted on 01/23/2004 4:54:58 PM PST by skeeter
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To: FITZ
"Our economy isn't adding 3 million jobs a year."

No, but the Indian and Chinese economies are.
19 posted on 01/23/2004 4:55:26 PM PST by Beck_isright ("Those who stand for nothing fall for anything."-Alexander Hamilton)
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To: Jmouse007
Katherine Harris' campaign called me Wednesday night. I replied that perhaps the illegals have more benefits than I do as an American and could perhaps share them with her campaign. The young man hung up on me.
20 posted on 01/23/2004 4:56:27 PM PST by Beck_isright ("Those who stand for nothing fall for anything."-Alexander Hamilton)
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To: Ohioan
""racist," "nativist," "bigot," "xenophobe," etc., every time any one questions one of their programs or ideas on the subject of race or ethnicity, for which they have no rational argument"

My son has a very good friend in Greece and in speaking to her yesterday, there is a new push for immigration in there. And interestingly, those who are pushing for immigration are using these same ploys to muzzle those in opposition. Greeks are very nationalistic (parodied in "My Big Fat Greek Wedding")and they will have a hard row to hoe to get the Greeks to stomach their plans.

21 posted on 01/23/2004 4:57:00 PM PST by Zipporah (Write inTancredo in 2004)
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To: stevie_d_64
I am still not convinced that the direction presented by President Bush is the best course...I think that whatever it is, it is an election year ploy/strategy

Exactly.
A first-term President has to aquiesce to certain things that a second term President does not. There may be aspects to this "amnesty" (which allows us to identify and track these illegals and which also encourages them to go the hell home) that we do not yet know about.. the power of Google notwithstanding.

I reserve judgement.

22 posted on 01/23/2004 4:57:32 PM PST by humblegunner
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To: Beck_isright
The reason is so that the owner of my local gardening service can continue to hire illegals and will reward Bush with a vote in November. The GOP is pandering to the day labor hiring lobby. This is not whining just simply a statement of fact. What's more imporatant, Homeland Security or votes of small business owners who hire illegals? We'll soon know the answer.
23 posted on 01/23/2004 4:57:37 PM PST by GOP_1900AD (Un-PC even to "Conservatives!" - Right makes right)
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To: stevie_d_64
Bush's proposal is a brilliant move in a complex chess game.

This is the impression I got after hearing his proposal.

24 posted on 01/23/2004 4:58:11 PM PST by Flyer (LOST - Tag line, disappeared 01/21/04, black Times New Roman, 73 characters - Reward!)
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To: Beck_isright
Katherine Harris' campaign called me Wednesday night. I replied that perhaps the illegals have more benefits than I do as an American and could perhaps share them with her campaign. The young man hung up on me.

Next time, tell them you'll hold your breath until you turn blue if you don't get your way. That'll make you sound a bit more mature.

25 posted on 01/23/2004 4:58:27 PM PST by Poohbah ("Beware the fury of a patient man" -- John Dryden)
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To: Beck_isright
I think this is smoke and mirrors on the level of the dimocrats. I pray for our president daily, I don't know what road he is taking us down, but I don't like the looks of this neighborhood.
26 posted on 01/23/2004 4:59:17 PM PST by exnavy
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To: Poohbah

And bookmarking

27 posted on 01/23/2004 5:00:07 PM PST by prairiebreeze (God Bless and Protect the Allied Troops. And the families here at home---they are soldiers too.)
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To: belmont_mark
Here's my reasons for this proposal in addition to yours.

-Make underthetable money flow into SS via FICA payroll deductions.

-Unspoken and unmentioned, but a future privatisation of PEMEX.
28 posted on 01/23/2004 5:01:07 PM PST by swarthyguy
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To: Zipporah
Are you saying common sense should be used? Gosh what the heck is wrong with you??

I guess I'm just not sophisticated enough to understand the complexities of this. I mean look at the first sentence:

Critics of President Bush's immigration reform proposal have…missed the subtle brilliance of his approach to a very complex problem.

I guess I'm just too simple to catch the subtle brilliance of enticing more throngs of illegal aliens to rush here on the expectation that they will be legalized.

29 posted on 01/23/2004 5:02:07 PM PST by JOAT
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To: Beck_isright
Conservatives seem ready to condemn the illegal immigrants who come seeking work and often advocate the harshest punishments for them (i.e. shooting them at the border) while at the same time barely hand-slapping the lawbreaking businesses and ignoring city sanctuary policies designed to undermine federal immigration law

WRONG. Politicians do the wimpy hand-slapping - conservative are ALL FOR fining the crap out of Tyson Chicken, the major beef producers and packers, and all the other who employ illegals.

Conservatives are worlds away more true to their principles than politicians who pretend to be conservatives.

30 posted on 01/23/2004 5:02:07 PM PST by Lizavetta (Savage is right - extreme liberalism is a mental disorder.)
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To: Poohbah
Until 1965, we had a very small illegal immigration problem. After 1965, we had a HUGE illegal immigration problem.

Alot of stuff happened in '65, so finding cause & effect might not be that simple.

I think something modeled on the old Bracero program is appropriate. But from what I've heard of it, what GW is proposing far exceeds that.

31 posted on 01/23/2004 5:02:38 PM PST by skeeter
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To: swarthyguy; belmont_mark
Make underthetable money flow into SS via FICA payroll deductions.

Also identifies the people paying under the table.

The "day labor lobby" won't like that one bit.

32 posted on 01/23/2004 5:02:40 PM PST by Poohbah ("Beware the fury of a patient man" -- John Dryden)
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To: Jmouse007
Sorry, this is not going to wash with the Republican base no matter what the "party line" may be!

You're right, but we can expect a lot of these applesauce stories to be coming out anyway.

What really bothers me is if Clinton had proposed the same deal, the very people defending it now like this writer would be screaming from the highest rooftops in opposition. And rightly so, it's a terrible idea.

33 posted on 01/23/2004 5:03:58 PM PST by Reaganwuzthebest
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To: Zipporah
"Barf is right. I see no mention of the Atzlan revolutionaries in this piece. I called the RNC and told them I, as a Republican, feel that the party has "stabbed Americans in the back" with their support of this proposal."

And what was their reply?
34 posted on 01/23/2004 5:04:38 PM PST by Beck_isright ("Those who stand for nothing fall for anything."-Alexander Hamilton)
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To: Jmouse007
"Our oldest son just graduated last year and is working as a computer programmer... his job is in jeopardy of being "outsourced" to a third world hell hole where people subsist on slave wages, but hey it is America and according to the president foreigners are being given the jobs that "Americans do not want to do"."

You forgot the other con, "It is the duty and obligation of Americans to lift the boats of other nations". I have looked and I don't see that duty listed in the Constitution. I do see where we are to be protected from invaders of any type, peaceful or violent. They have played on the Christian American conscience and gullibility for decades much to their own harm. Now they have come for our standard of living, our blessings from God, our Constitutional Republic, and soon our Bill of Rights. It's time to send these scoundrels and snake oil salesmen packing.

35 posted on 01/23/2004 5:05:06 PM PST by MissAmericanPie
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To: swarthyguy
-Unspoken and unmentioned, but a future privatisation of PEMEX.

The heck with that, how about an outright hostile takeover?

So far I've heard of no concessions from Mexico which might encroach on their precious souveriegnty.

36 posted on 01/23/2004 5:05:13 PM PST by skeeter
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To: Poohbah
"Next time, tell them you'll hold your breath until you turn blue if you don't get your way. That'll make you sound a bit more mature."

Ah yes, the reply I expect from a liberalbot.
37 posted on 01/23/2004 5:05:47 PM PST by Beck_isright ("Those who stand for nothing fall for anything."-Alexander Hamilton)
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To: skeeter
Alot of stuff happened in '65, so finding cause & effect might not be that simple.

The big issue is that the Mexicans, by and large, came up for the season, by themselves, and headed back down to Mexico in the off-season.

After the guest worker program ended, each border crossing became a hazard. To minimize the level of risk, the now-illegal aliens crossed ONCE and stayed here. They also started bringing their families with them.

38 posted on 01/23/2004 5:06:01 PM PST by Poohbah ("Beware the fury of a patient man" -- John Dryden)
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To: Zipporah
Greeks are very nationalistic . . .and they will have a hard row to hoe to get the Greeks to stomach their plans.

Yes but if you look at the tremendous success of the Fabian Socialist push for an undifferentiated humanity in the United States and Western Europe, Canada, etc.., you had better warn your Greek friends not to take this attack lightly. This is not really "Liberalism" we, and they, have to deal with; but a movement that relies on deception and the suppression of real debate, and has at all times relied on those tactics, with success that no one would have believed possible 90 years ago.

The multi-culturalists have no intellectual argument--none to speak of--but they have managed to intimidate two generations of Western men and women. I hold them in absolute intellectual contempt, but I do not take them lightly. How can any of us?

William Flax Return Of The Gods Web Site

39 posted on 01/23/2004 5:06:26 PM PST by Ohioan
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To: exnavy
"I think this is smoke and mirrors on the level of the dimocrats. I pray for our president daily, I don't know what road he is taking us down, but I don't like the looks of this neighborhood."

This neighborhood is looking more and more like the one we thought we all voted ourselves out of, minus the philandering.
40 posted on 01/23/2004 5:06:44 PM PST by Beck_isright ("Those who stand for nothing fall for anything."-Alexander Hamilton)
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To: Beck_isright
"Now smugglers are fighting back, shooting it out with kidnappers on sidewalks and freeways in broad daylight. A gunbattle last month between kidnappers and smugglers on Interstate 10 at the height of rush hour left four dead. Four others were killed this month in the desert near Phoenix; authorities blamed the deaths on violence between the two groups."

Isn't diversity wonderful? < /sarcasm >

41 posted on 01/23/2004 5:07:15 PM PST by sweetliberty (Even the smallest person can change the course of the future. - (LOTR))
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To: Beck_isright
Bitching an moaning at a campaign staffer about something that the candidate he's working for didn't propose is pretty damn childish.
42 posted on 01/23/2004 5:07:18 PM PST by Poohbah ("Beware the fury of a patient man" -- John Dryden)
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To: Lizavetta
"Conservatives are worlds away more true to their principles than politicians who pretend to be conservatives."

Prepare to get your hand slapped.
43 posted on 01/23/2004 5:08:45 PM PST by Beck_isright ("Those who stand for nothing fall for anything."-Alexander Hamilton)
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To: Poohbah
After the guest worker program ended, each border crossing became a hazard. To minimize the level of risk, the now-illegal aliens crossed ONCE and stayed here. They also started bringing their families with them.

I'd feel alot better if the safety net were removed for such workers, and they were exempted from the provisions of the 14th Amendment as its currently interpreted (maybe something else could be enacted to provide them a reasonable level of protection, but no anchor babies).

But I'm not hearing anything like this from the president.

44 posted on 01/23/2004 5:09:15 PM PST by skeeter
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To: Poohbah
"Bitching an moaning at a campaign staffer about something that the candidate he's working for didn't propose is pretty damn childish."

She's already offered initial support. Live in her district and then perhaps you can speak intelligently.
45 posted on 01/23/2004 5:10:12 PM PST by Beck_isright ("Those who stand for nothing fall for anything."-Alexander Hamilton)
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To: Ohioan
I admire W the courage of even attempting to convey a PLAN.

Maybe it won't scow after all is said and done. But it beats every criticism, and platitude thus far offered here in reply. Essentially NON-PROPOSALs, all.

46 posted on 01/23/2004 5:10:29 PM PST by onedoug
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To: Ohioan
"a movement that relies on deception and the suppression of real debate,".. I absolutely agree and for years, unfortunately, many have been in fear of being called 'racists' or 'xenophobe' or some other despicable label. It was a tactic that worked.

My son is leaving for Athens soon and will be staying for a year. It will be interesting to hear from him how they deal with the immigration push. The EU is pushing very hard for a global society.

47 posted on 01/23/2004 5:13:17 PM PST by Zipporah (Write inTancredo in 2004)
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To: onedoug
I admire W the courage of even attempting to convey a PLAN.

What's the need for a new plan? Congress already has a plan in place, it's called employer sanctions. The problem is they're not being enforced.

48 posted on 01/23/2004 5:13:19 PM PST by Reaganwuzthebest
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To: Poohbah
Until 1965, we had a guest worker program. It was killed by the Johnson Administration to pay off the AFL-CIO.

Until 1965, we had a very small illegal immigration problem. After 1965, we had a HUGE illegal immigration problem.

I submit that the two are a study in cause and effect.

There may be some relationship between the two, but to suggest this is the single cause and effect seems a bit simplistic. The internal deterioration of Mexico is another factor. The meteoric rise of the American economy and subsequent prosperity since 1965 is another. Parallel to that, the propensity to break/ignore/generally question law/authority among our people contributes to an atmosphere of acceptance of hiring illegals.

I think there are many contributing factors.

49 posted on 01/23/2004 5:13:20 PM PST by JOAT
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To: Flyer
The only reason I see it being complicated is the fact that the only people that are goping to be directly affected by the total enforcment of the existing law are the employers of the illegals...

The criminal element of the illegal border crossers can be dealt with in the usual fashion...Even though all of that traffic is "illegal" and "criminal"...But I am sure most here understand that concept...Its the dunderheads that get sent up to D.C. that need an significant kick in the ass-terix to make them see the light...

The problem is tremendously larger than those folks are willing to deal with effectively...They need to understand that in the long run the citizens of this country want the problem resolved and not treated with kid gloves...

Later,
Steve
50 posted on 01/23/2004 5:13:20 PM PST by stevie_d_64 (Houston Area Texans)
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