Moral / Philosophical Question: Social Security Disability

self

[Objective Reality]

Those who have noted my username in my posting history at FR will recall that I have mentioned once or twice before that my wife, beautiful and loving human being that she is, also happens to be profoundly mentally ill.

Her primary ailment is a severe anxiety disorder with secondary manifestations of savage depression and obsessive-compulsive disorder. If we had not found each other, it's most likely she would have committed suicide, and if anything should happen to me, I fear for her survival. I raise these points not as a plea for sympathy or self-justification, only for context.

These problems have left her totally incapable of holding any job for any appreciable length of time for as long as we've been together. The most strenuous job she has ever held was a simple retail position making and selling beaded jewelry - this lasted for a few months before she sank into a despair that left her bedridden. It has always been like this, and although she has her ups as well has her downs, reality dictates that I understand it always will be. We carry on, and try to make the good days outnumber the bad ones, as best we can.

So my question is a moral and philosophical one. I have taken care of her for more than ten years entirely on my own. We survive, but have moved only the faintest steps forward in that time. Most people my age have a nice nest egg saved for retirement, and are able to fix their cars, or their homes, as the need arises. We cannot. In all candor, we should sell our current home and buy a mobile in the country, but in its current state, it wouldn't sell, except for at least 20,000 less than the mortgage payoff. Nor would we be able to even afford to move - every spare cent goes to doctors and medication.

So, I have lately been considering applying for Social Security Disability on her behalf. That's the moral issue. The only rationalizations I've been able to swallow are the fact that any benefit she received would amount to only about a third of what I pay monthly into FICA and Income tax (so I would, in effect, only be carving a tax cut out of the system), and the fact that given my age, I do not expect to ever receive retirement benefits, unless the government one day seizes a massive chunk of private retirement accounts to subsidize the program (as, disgustingly, I expect will eventually happen).

Like anyone, I will ultimately do what I must to ensure the survival of my wife and family, but if I were to pursue this option, my self-respect would plummet. As I respect the community of thought at FR more than anyone outside of my immediate family and circle of friends, I must ask - which is worse, to select a choice that hypocritizes my whole political philosophy, or to put my pride and self-esteem above the well-being of the only person in the world who, ultimately, means the most to me?

Philosophical and moral considerations aside, the terrible choices I already face are what force the question. It is a blunt reality to have to choose between keeping the lights on, and letting my wife keep a crucial appointment with a doctor, or fill a crucial prescription.

[Objective Reality]

I appreciate your time and consideration.

[baltodog]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with getting the benefits. You derserve them and they are owed to yourself and your wife. You will not abuse or take advantage of those benefits. YOU are the reason that the benefits were created. There is no hyprocosy involved in that. I see it as a black and white survival issue.

I stand and applaud your respect for the sancity of marriage in regards to the "better or worse and sickness and health" portion.

The world would be a much better place if there were more people like you.

[Objective Reality]

You just choked me up. Thanks so much.

[skip2myloo]

By all means, apply for and take advantage of and and all benefits you and your wife are eligible for without any mental or moral reservation whatsoever.

You've paid into the system, and that's what it is there for.

Yes, we'd like to see the paradigm changed for future programs, but not at the detriment of those who have already contributed so much and are "grandfathered."

I've paid into Social Security for 50 years, I'm not going to forego my pension benefits because I don't like the program.

[muir_redwoods]

Effectively, you have been forced, ultimately at gunpoint, to participate in the farce known as Social Security. Your money has been confiscated by a brute government that trusted that you would never live long enough to collect back your "contribution". To their dismay, you now have a legitimate claim on your own stolen assets via your wife's situation(My sympathies, my own wife has metastatic cancer so I can empathize).

File your claim and try to get back some small share of your stolen money. If no other reason compels you remember your marriage vows to love, honor and cherish her in sickness and in health. You owe her the best care you can muster legitimately and getting back your stolen wealth via the rules of the game is legitimate, IMHO

Good luck

[bulldogs]

My tag line is dediciated to you today. You are the hero of the day.

[chicagolady]

I worked at homeless shelters were strong, young, able bodied, drug addicted men and women get these benefits and are taking us tax payers for a ride. They did not work , just stayed high at our expense.

On the OTHER hand, that's what the benefits are there FOR,
people who need it!

It is when folks scam, people get angry.
by all means swallow your pride and take what is needed, because that is her benefit!

[Objective Reality]

As I have been many times before, I am touched and moved by the kindness of this community.

Today has been a better day for my wife - the medication is making her less ill than usual. We'll take advantage of this by going out and catching a dollar movie, maybe window shop (dream) for some things for our home. I'll be absent from the board for a couple of hours but check back for further discussion later.

muir_redwoods, my prayers are with you.

Thank you all, again.

[marron]

However badly handled social security is, it is still legitimate for a country to develop a safety net. Things happen that are beyond the ability for any one person to handle alone. If we didn't call it social security, we would call it something else and we would still have people trying to scam that system, and we would still have dimwits administering it because we are still, after all, human.

This is the system we have, you are an honorable man with an honorable claim against that system. Take care of your family; that is your first duty.

And pray. God can transform the unsolveable, I have seen it. Or help you bear up under the unbearable in the meantime.

[oblomov]

You should apply for and take the benefits, without any misgivings.

Although I am personally opposed to the welfare state, the fact is that it exists. You should not walk away from something that benefits both you and your wife simply because you oppose the system in the abstract.

In any case, you are a net payor into the system. The money would be yours if the system did not exist.

As other people here have said, I applaud your devotion to your wife. I sincerely hope that she gets better.

[Henrietta]

This is not directly related to your question, but have you tried some alternative therapies for your wife? Some psychological disorders have a nutritional or biochemical component that can be cured through nutritional supplementation. Read the book, "The Diet Cure" by Julia Ross. This program helped someone whom I care aboout cure their depression.

[IncPen]

I think the benefits were created for cases just such as yours. You've paid in, so you're entitled to the benefit. Take it.

On another subject...

If your house is in need of repair, you might consider contacting a charitable organization such as a church, to inquire as to whether they might be able to help you get it up to snuff for sale, or just to make it more livable. Many, many churches have volunteer service projects and regard this type of thing as their Christian duty.

Another option is to take out equity line of credit and perfom some repairs prior to sale, or a 'construction loan' for the same purpose; you might be able to reap more from the house, perhaps even a small profit, rather than a loss.

In any case, your attention to your wife is commendable and admirable, and a lesson to all of us. While you may wish for a mansion here on earth, you will surely have one when this earth has gone.

[corlorde]

I agree. You paid in, it's there for you to collect. You're not a lazy leech who sits around expecting a handout like so many people who abuse the system. It is a safety net after all, and SSDI should be used for situations such as yours.

Good luck to you and your wife

~Corey..

[tpaine]

So my question is a moral and philosophical one. I have taken care of her for more than ten years entirely on my own. We survive, but have moved only the faintest steps forward in that time.

Most people my age have a nice nest egg saved for retirement, and are able to fix their cars, or their homes, as the need arises. We cannot.

In all candor, we should sell our current home and buy a mobile in the country, but in its current state, it wouldn't sell, except for at least 20,000 less than the mortgage payoff.


Nor would we be able to even afford to move - every spare cent goes to doctors and medication.

So, I have lately been considering applying for Social Security Disability on her behalf. That's the moral issue.

The only rationalizations I've been able to swallow are the fact that any benefit she received would amount to only about a third of what I pay monthly into FICA and Income tax (so I would, in effect, only be carving a tax cut out of the system) --

-Obj Real-

______________________________________


I'd like more info before addressing the moral issue..
The max SSDI payment is about $500 to $600 a month, right?
You pay $1500 or more in taxes & FICA?
Leaving what, around 4/5 grand net to raise your family, and pay your extraordinary medical expenses?

Big family? No medical insurance?

[savedbygrace]

Maybe I am making an assumption here, but considering your screen name this comment might not mean much to you. Regardless, here it is.

Many people say, "God helps those who help themselves." However, a thorough reading of the Bible reveals that God helps those who cannot help themselves. In fact, there is ample evidence in the Bible that God withholds help from those who are self sufficient, waiting for the moment they finally admit they can't do it on their own. Then they can say, as David did in Psalm 18:17, "He delivered me from my strong enemy, and from them which hated me: for they were too strong for me."

Along this line, I recall a story about a man who took his little son to the office with him for a day. As they came to the massive doors of his office, the tiny boy grabbed the door knob and pushed as hard as he could, but the door wouldn't budge. His father, realizing that if he put his own hand on top of his son's hands to open the door, his son's hand would be crushed. The man had to WAIT until the boy reached the conclusion that he was unable to open the door and took his hands off the knob.

FWIW.

[freedox]

"I'd like more info before addressing the moral issue.. The max SSDI payment is about $500 to $600 a month, right? You pay $1500 or more in taxes & FICA?"

You've touched on an important point here. First, if this woman is applying for SSDI, her elegibility will depend upon whether or not she meets the work/contribution requirements......her husband's work/contribution history is inconsequential. However, if she is applying for SSI, her husband's income could become a stumbling block since the poverty requirements are so stringent.

[King Black Robe]

WOW! I love the way you think about this.

Think of SS as an insurance policy and a retirement plan combined. If you had a disability policy on your wife, you would not hesitate to collect regardless of how much you have or will pay in. SS is a crummy plan, but it is forced on us, so I say you would be crazy to not use it. It is not the same thing as welfare or even education for that matter. (Education could be fine if it were organized totally differently. It really should be privatized. As it is, few individuals ever reimburse the "common good" for what they personally take. The big bad evil rich are carrying the load for everyone.)

SS benefits are the fairest thing the government does. I still think privatization would work better. Return on investment sucks. True lovers of liberty would allow people to purchase their own plans (which likely would have provided you with better benefits for less cost) But by and large, everyone is purchasing their own disability insurance and retirement plan.

[LadyDoc]

social security disability was devised for disabled people.
Mental illness such as this is a disability.

Thank you for caring for her. God will bless you for it.

Do not feel 'ashamed" for taking such funding.

[tpaine]

Good point..
I've only heard second hand info on SSDI, and have no facts to go on about the details. -- Anyone know?

[freedox]

Social Security disability insurance (SSDI) is not like private disability insurance in many respects. One of the primary differences is that with SSDI, you must have an adequate history of having paid into the system before you are considered eligible for benefits. A spouse's contributions don't count.

http://www.ssa.gov/dibplan/dqualify2.htm

[freedox]

http://www.ssa.gov/disability/

[tpaine]

I should read gov regs to find out?

Get a grip.. I don't care ~that~ much..

[King Black Robe]

Well, I don't know that a spouses contributions do not count. I have a family member receiving benefits who did not pay in enough to collect. I know the retirement part can be collected on ones spouse, or at least it used to be that way. I will check out your link on that.

[IronJack]

a choice that hypocritizes my whole political philosophy,

What IS your political philosophy? Does it demand that you forgo all the benefits of a political system just because you don't support their abuse? Does it deny you the advantages of systemic wealth? Does it proscribe the rewards from working hard and enfranchising yourself and your wife?

If so, then no, you cannot accept Social Security benefits without jeopardizing your ethical consistency. But since the system was developed with just such disabilities in mind, you could put your trust in it and live with its decision. If your wife (and you) are awarded the benefits, it may just be because you deserve them.

Finally, I believe God is more concerned with the "why" than the "what." If in your heart you know your cause is pure, you can be at peace with your decision.

[wimpycat]

I've heard it can be quite hard to get SS disability benefits. But I've got a cousin who gets SSD benefits, and as far as I know, he's only had a couple of jobs in his life, totaling only a few years' employment. He's in his early 40's and has been getting SSD for well over 10 years. He's what I call "peculiar", meaning nobody knows what's really wrong with him, but he's been that way all his life.

But, it seems to me that your situation was tailor made for SSD. Don't feel bad or guilty about it. You paid into the system.

[DameAutour]

This is my first post to freerepublic, although I've been lurking for a while. I spend so much time here I feel like I am a part of things already. This is the first time I thought I had something to contribute.

Your loyalty to your wife and vows brings tears to my eyes. Men like you are beautiful to me. My own father was like this, as my mother was also mentally ill and in and out of institutions through much of my childhood. But he never left and became as a single father, single yet married. The love he had for God and wife sustained us.

I am in the same situation as you Objective Reality, although I am the person with the mental illness that has progessively worsened since the age of 9, only to become full-blown in adulthood. And I have had to watch as my family struggled. The desire to work is very, very strong and as a conversative for a long time I could not even consider going on the "public dole". I love working and hated the idea of government assistance. How could I take money from people as surely as money had been taken from me?

But as you and your wife are surely aware, mental illness is a cancer, a cancer of the mind. And for those of us who are severely afflicted, "can't work" really does mean just that. I really do think that we are the people for whom the (admittedly flawed) system was designed.

After years of struggling to work as my mind deteriorated, I gave up hope. Utilities cut off, debts went unpaid. I've always been a "money-minded" person and rather prided myself on my ability to create a budget and stick to it. But psychiatrists, medicines and just the cost of everyday living bested even my strongest budget. Eventually I was no longer able to afford the medication (I lost my insurance plan) and eventually stopped taking it, never a good idea. Despair led to anger and in the midst of that, I saw our latest bloated property tax assessment. I reflected on all of the money I could have saved if not for the government stealing from me. After prayer and study, I concluded that it would be proper for me to take disability so long as I continued my own fight toward self-sufficiency. But easing the money pressure certainly eased the stresses on my mind.

Thankfully I also have the support of my local congregation and extended family members. As I fight to get better and gain some control over my life, I am emboldened by the idea that I am now able to save bits of money here and there, after slashing my budget (I admit that budgeting is something of an obsession for me). I seek other treatments and therapies besides the traditional ones, educate myself and feed my mind with positive things, and quite frankly have no intention of receiving this money for the rest of my life. I don't accept that, I just can't. However I do not think it is immoral for me to receive it now, nor does it seem so from your situation.

I'd like to add that disability can take a long time to be approved and you must be prepared for that. It will be based on your wife's previous income and how many "quarters" she paid the FICA tax.

[bulldogs]

Welcome, good first post.

[Objective Reality]

Thanks again all for all replies.

To answer your questions, tpaine: I bring in about $3000 net per month, and approximately $1500 goes toward the mortgage. Essentially, we bought more home than we could afford, stupidly, during the dotcom boom, then, even more stupidly, went about the business of trying to remodel it ourselves. It's about half-tiled, almost five years into our time here. We do (thankfully) have health insurance, but the only doctors that will take her case and provide any effective treatment all refuse to take health insurance.

So she has approximately four sessions with therapists and psychiatrists per month, and usually two per month with a specialist in medication regimen - she's highly reactive to all medications, especially to their withdrawal, and if she takes one for six weeks, and it proves ineffective, it takes her six months to one year to get off of it. So for doctor's bills, we range about $400 a month, just to keep her stabilized.

Medication is insured, but the copays range from $15 - $30 for each of them, and all are refilled each month. I'm actually looking into switching as many of her prescriptions to CostCo as I can, as these might cost less, full price, than the co-pays. Currently she takes seven different psychiatric medicines. So, all told, we end up with about $700 - $800 to cover everything else.

I was unaware of a $500 - $600 benefit and doubt I'd seek or receive it - going by her own contributions to Social Security, I was anticipating a benefit of no more than $200 - $300, which would go just toward the doctor visits. The rest I would continue to cover out-of-pocket. A $200 benefit, which is all I had reasonably imagined receiving, is about one-third of my monthly FICA and Income taxes.

[Objective Reality]

You are also in my prayers, DameAutour, and you honor me by dedicating your first post, a kind and beautiful one at that, to this thread. Thank you, deeply, for sharing your story, and your empathy, with my wife and I. You have helped immensely, and I mean that in all sincerity.

[TMSuchman]

Sir;
God bless you for staying with your wife, no matter what!I too draw on SSDI. It was very hard for me to accept the notion that I too will never be able to work again in the public's eye. [I had a motorcycle accident while on active duty with my beloved Marine Corps in Yuma, AZ, by an illigal alien. Had I not been wearing my safety gear, I would not be here today.] I had suffered a major head injury, had a rod & screws and pins installed in my left leg, and a lot more.
My job in the Marines was that of a Crash,Fire,Rescueman, with side duties as haz-mat response, and various others. Everyday I hear the fire trucks roar out to answer someone's call for help, and God as my witness, I want to go too, but I can't. That is a very tough & bitter "pill" to take. My wife [who I owe so much to] had to go back to work. [At one time I made a promise to her that if she wanted to stay home and raise our children, she would never have to worry about money or anything else. Boy was I wrong!]
Our son has Down Syndrome [he is my little buddy] and draws SSI for that too.The best that we can hope for him, is to grow up & move into a group home.
I hate the amount of taxes that are stolen out of people's paychecks, but I also relize that money pays for us to live too. This has set me up for a lot of sleepless nights. It took several months for the monies to start comming. We were homeless for about a year, and now just able to scrape by month to month. We try to live within our means, but with 2 kids it is a little hard at times.
I am not whining, but trying to let people understand not all famlies are trying to scam the system. even after all we have been through we will celabrate our 10th wedding ann. on Feb. 14th of this year.

[Havoc]

I feel for you, really. My last interest had severe anxiety disorder and I know exactly what you're going through. I wish I had a great answer for you, I don't.
Disability is not all it's cracked up to be, and you may find it more limiting than it is helpful. Word to the wise, talk to others who are on disability! My understanding from people who are on it is that it's like a prison without bars. When I had pneumonia several years ago, I did all I could not to go on disability because it is such a trap. When My house burnt down and I lost everything, I did everything I could not to involve the government. I got assistance from the United way - they gave me $50 and sent me away. Now, the difference is, that the United way has funds people parted with willingly to help out others in need. When you go to the government, they take it away from people that need it as bad or worse than you do and they don't care one way or another. I don't matter to the government, I'm just a number. And if they rob me of my money to look good to someone else, it doesn't matter to them. So I try not to give them an excuse to take money from anyone else more than they already do.

If you have a need, avail yourself of what you must. The only thing I would ask is that you know what you're getting into no matter where the help comes from. I know what you're going through and you deserve any help you can get.
God loves ya and so do I. Take care of your family. ;)

[Controlling Legal Authority]

I have represented people who are trying to get Soc Sec Disability for about 20 years. To put it in a nutshell, if the disabled person hasn't paid enough into the system for a period of time prior to the onset of disability to qualify for "regular disability" she still may qualify for some benefits under a similar program (SSI). But there are family income limitations that come into play with SSI and the benefits are usually lower. I occaisonally have to turn people away because even though I could easily prove that they are disabled within the meaning of the disability law they haven't paid enough personally into the system and/or they haven't paid it within the time period allowed by law and the spouse's income would prevent the disabled person from getting anything from SSI even if we did prove that the person is disabled.

Before you worry about it too much I suggest that you contact your local SS office and see what she would net if your income has to be considered.
Proving the onset of disability 10 years or so earlier is problematic but not impossible if there was regular treatment by physicians and those records are still available. That might allow her to qualify for benefits regardless of your income if she had paid enough in at that time.

[bulldogs]

I hope you had a nice time with your wife tonight. I did the same with my wife. It was a little better day for her also. We just went to a diner for a meal.