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Pair of Stryker vehicles come under fire in Iraq
The News Tribune - Tacoma, WA ^ | January 31st, 2004 | MICHAEL GILBERT

Posted on 01/31/2004 10:23:42 AM PST by Cannoneer No. 4

MOSUL, Iraq - The Army's new Stryker vehicle had its first combat encounter with a rocket-propelled grenade Friday.

The round struck the front of the vehicle above its slat armor cage, cutting a hose inside the engine compartment. The vehicle commander suffered a superficial cut near his nose, officials said.

But the Fort Lewis crew was otherwise unhurt and drove the vehicle out of danger, their company commander and 1st sergeant said.

It was one of four RPG attacks on Strykers on Friday in Mosul. The other three rounds missed.

Soldiers throughout the brigade had figured it was only a matter of time before a Stryker was hit by an RPG, one of the most widely available anti-armor weapons in the world.

Commanders said the attacks are proof that local insurgents are finished with merely observing the new vehicles moving about the city streets.

"You need to tell your soldiers this is still a very, very dangerous environment," 2nd Battalion, 3rd Infantry Regiment commander Lt. Col. Gordie Flowers told his troop leaders after the day's events. "They need to know that they need to have their 'A game' on every time they go out the gate."

All four attacks were against vehicles from the 2nd Battalion, 3rd Infantry.

Battalion officials gave these details:

•A few minutes before the Stryker was hit at 8:30 a.m., gunmen attacked the same vehicle with small-arms fire and an RPG from about 750 feet away. The round fell short.

•About 7:30 a.m., in a neighborhood in northeast Mosul, insurgents fired an RPG at a Stryker parked near where soldiers had discovered a weapons cache. The attackers got away.

•Attackers tried to hit the same vehicle just before 3 p.m. as it was parked along the eastern shore of the Tigris River, near where dive and boat teams were looking for one of two soldiers missing in the river since Sunday.

The attackers fired the RPG from the west side of the river, from at least 750 feet away, officers said. The grenade struck hanging lines above the vehicle and caused no damage.

Soldiers saw the attackers on the other shore. They returned fire, and a squad searched the area moments later but found no sign of them.

Depending on the type, RPGs are capable of boring through a Stryker's armor and spraying hot shrapnel all around the interior of the vehicle.

The threat prompted the Army to install bulky, 5,000-pound slat cages around the Strykers while RPG-resistant armor is still being developed.

Friday's strike didn't answer the question of whether the slat armor will work as advertised and diffuse the impact of the RPG before it strikes the body of the vehicle.

But at least on this day, the RPG strike wasn't the deadly event that many feared.

The grenade was fired from close range - less than 300 feet - and struck above the cage at the front of the Stryker, battalion officials said. Photographs of the damage showed finger-sized holes near the hinge of the armored hatch that covers the engine compartment.

Crew members had headaches after the blast, but drove the vehicle out of danger, said 1st Sgt. Mike Hurtado of the company.

"The vehicle was drivable. We drove it around in an attempt to pursue the enemy," said company commander Capt. A.J. Newtson.

It was another half-hour or so before they realized one of the engine hoses had been cut, so they stopped driving it to avoid further damage and later towed it to their base camp in central Mosul, he said.

When they were fired at the first time, the soldiers were on an early morning patrol in search of roadside bombs set overnight in the southeast section of town.

After the grenade fell short, the soldiers tried to seal off the area. A resident of the neighborhood told soldiers where they might find the insurgents who shot at them, battalion officials said.

They searched the area on foot, recovering a 155 mm artillery round from the yard where the tipster had told them to look. But they didn't find the gunmen and were reboarding their vehicles when the second attack came.

The same shooters, they believe, moved in closer, fired the RPG and climbed into a car and drove away.

Newtson said the attackers used the dense urban setting to blend in with civilians and escape. Mosul is one of the largest cities in Iraq, with some 1.8 million residents.

Newtson and Hurtado said their injured soldier from the damaged Stryker had returned to duty and would likely be back out on roadside bomb patrol this morning.

They said the expected repairs to the vehicle wouldn't take long and that it would be returned to service soon.

"It worked the way it was supposed to," Flowers said. "To take the hit and still get you out of the attack zone."

Battalion officials said they figured sooner or later their search operations along the Tigris would be attacked. The mission to find two missing soldiers is tying up one of its infantry companies as they provide security coverage for the divers and boat teams working in the water.

Staff Sgt. Christopher Bunda, 29, a squad leader with the 2nd Battalion, 3rd Infantry, was lost in the river when a boat he was in capsized Sunday afternoon. Lt. Adam Mooney, 28, and Chief Warrant Officer 3 Patrick Dorf, 32, disappeared after their OH-58 Kiowa Warrior helicopter crashed into the river about an hour later as they searched for Bunda.

Navy divers recovered Dorf's body Thursday afternoon.

Michael Gilbert: mjgilbert41@yahoo.com

(Published 12:01AM, January 31st, 2004)


TOPICS: Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Government; US: Illinois; US: Mississippi; US: Washington; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: 3rdbde2id; arrowheadbde; rpg; sbct; stryker; wheeledarmor
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Stryker Brigade Combat Team Tactical Studies Group (Chairborne)


1 posted on 01/31/2004 10:23:44 AM PST by Cannoneer No. 4
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To: serurier; af_vet_rr; ALOHA RONNIE; American in Israel; American Soldier; archy; armymarinemom; ...
Stryker ping
2 posted on 01/31/2004 10:25:47 AM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (The road to Glory cannot be followed with too much baggage.)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
Lucky that the bad guys are terrible shots.
3 posted on 01/31/2004 10:27:52 AM PST by Darksheare (The voices in YOUR head are talking to ME!)
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To: Old Sarge
Army explains plans for Stryker Brigade
4 posted on 01/31/2004 11:37:10 AM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (The road to Glory cannot be followed with too much baggage.)
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To: All
Arrowhead Brigade Uncovers Two Caches
5 posted on 01/31/2004 11:38:40 AM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (The road to Glory cannot be followed with too much baggage.)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4; archy
Too bad there isn't at least a quad 50 or chain gun on top.

It would make pursuing the dirtbags more fun.

6 posted on 01/31/2004 11:39:56 AM PST by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: All
Robots For No Man's Land
7 posted on 01/31/2004 11:40:14 AM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (The road to Glory cannot be followed with too much baggage.)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
Sgt. James Harris, 23, from Olympia, Wash., looks out from behind 10-foot jersey barriers on Friday as members of the Stryker Brigade Combat Team (SBCT), B Co., 2nd Battalion, 3rd Infantry Regiment, 2nd Infantry Division, check on an Iraqi police station in Mosul that has been attacked twice, most recently on Tuesday. Rob Curtis / Military Times staff


Sgt. James Harris, 23, from Olympia, Wash., looks out from behind 10-foot jersey barriers on Friday as members of the Stryker Brigade Combat Team (SBCT), B Co., 2nd Battalion, 3rd Infantry Regiment, 2nd Infantry Division, check on an Iraqi police station in Mosul that has been attacked twice, most recently on Tuesday.

http://www.armytimes.com/channel.php?GQID=show
Rob Curtis / Military Times staff

8 posted on 01/31/2004 11:45:53 AM PST by Ragtime Cowgirl ("The chapter of Iraq's history - Saddam Hussein's reign of terror - is now closed." Lt. Gen. Sanchez)
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To: Travis McGee; archy
I haven't seen anything about how the Remote Weapons Station has been fixed. Haven't sen anything about Strykers engaging targets with .50 cal or 40mm fire, either. I could take out an RPG team at 750 yards with an M85. Wonder why they didn't.
9 posted on 01/31/2004 11:46:47 AM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (The road to Glory cannot be followed with too much baggage.)
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To: Travis McGee; archy

I don't trying to mount a Quad 50 on a Stryker Infantry Carrier Vehicle would leave much room for any infantry. Strykers are pretty top heavy already.

Didn't somebody say we gave away all our old Quad 50's to the Israelis?

10 posted on 01/31/2004 12:03:44 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (The road to Glory cannot be followed with too much baggage.)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4; archy
How many of those gun trucks with a quad 50 can you buy for the price of a Stryker? Hmmmm....
11 posted on 01/31/2004 12:06:39 PM PST by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4; archy
If I were a dirtbag with an RPG, I think I'd be more afraid of a couple of gun trucks manned by nervous 19 year olds, than buttoned-up Strykers.
12 posted on 01/31/2004 12:08:35 PM PST by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
I don't trying to mount a Quad 50 on a Stryker Infantry Carrier Vehicle would leave much room for any infantry. Strykers are pretty top heavy already.

Didn't somebody say we gave away all our old Quad 50's to the Israelis?

We supplied the M55 mounts to the Israelis, yes, which they rebuilt with a pair of 20mm automatic cannon, and used for column defense against air attacks during the 1973 *Yom Kippur* war. Mounted on Walid armored cars captured from the Egyptians, Soviet BTR152 armored trucks captured from several of the Arab coalition states, and Israeli M3 halftracks [many of which had been converted from M16 quad .50 AA gun carriers and needed only to have the gun mounts reinstalled and the ammo can stowage racks refitted] the Israeli TCM-20 AA guns accounted for more Arab aircraft downed during the 1973 fighting than any other Israeli weapons system. And they didn't even have to hunt out their targets- the targets came to them.

The Israelis now use the stretched wheelbase version of their RAM armoured car as the preferred carrier for the twin 20mm TCM-20 AA gun setup.

I suspect that for the purposes used in Iraq, a set of 4 Mk 19 40mm automatic grenade launchers might be even more effective, or possibly a mix of two M2 .50 calibers and two Mk 19s.

13 posted on 01/31/2004 12:38:31 PM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
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To: Qatar-6
Got to looking at ArmyTimes.com, thaks to Ragtime Cowgirl, and found this:

Going to fight in Iraq? Lessons from an infantry company commander

Mounted react to contact drills are a necessity in urban contact. Units will move to and from many locations for missions, finding themselves more vulnerable on a vehicle. Leaders must focus on three areas in this training. First, soldiers must maintain 360-degree security and alternate high-low. Second, leaders cannot forget dismount drills upon contact. Lastly, although never really accurate, soldiers must train on mounted firing while moving. These three areas are key to success in a mounted react to contact. Leaders must also consider the placement of their mounted weapons in their convoy. Remember, the heavy weapons do no good if they are in the front of your convoy.

Vehicle preparation prior to arrival in theater saves lives. As the first combat unit to assume mission in Mosul, we had to learn the hard way. Vehicles must be prepared in a manner that protects the soldiers from shrapnel and rifle/machine gunfire. A tough decision must be made with respect to sandbags in the trucks. The M998 HMMWV will experience thousands of miles. The weight of a combat-loaded infantry squad with over 50 sandbags will deteriorate a M998 quickly. The sandbags will save the lives of soldiers, but they do not protect the M998.

Armor plating along the doors of the drivers and passengers and along the benches in the back of the M998 protect soldiers. On December 26, 2003, we were ambushed while clearing an intersection of IEDs. After one explosion and a fusillade of fire from two enemy machine guns, we inspected the trucks and found that the armor plating on the doors and back of the M998 had withstood the explosion and machine gun impacts, saving the lives of over 10 soldiers. The armor plating must withstand 7.62mm at a minimum. Get it on your trucks as soon as possible.

Security is timeless in military operations. During mounted movements in an urban environment, vehicles must have three-dimensional security. Threats can come from anywhere at anytime. Leaders must prepare their vehicles to facilitate 360-degree security. We placed benches inside every HMMWV and LMTV. I do not know if we were the first ones to do this, but we did recognize this early on, due to AAR comments by soldiers. An RPG will hit you so fast that if soldiers are not in the proper security position, you may never know the origin of fire. Simple wooden benches so soldiers can sit back-to-back improve security, increase offensive capabilities, and enable units to gain the initiative quickly.

Sounds like the standard M998 HMMWV, modified with steel plates on the floor and sides, does better than the the M1114 Up-Armored version.

14 posted on 01/31/2004 12:39:10 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (The road to Glory cannot be followed with too much baggage.)
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To: Travis McGee
How many of those gun trucks with a quad 50 can you buy for the price of a Stryker? Hmmmm....

Roughly 3 million apiece for a Stryker. Or for serious convoy escort, use a lowboy flatbed trailer instead, and carry an old *obsolete* M48A5 or M60A1 tank on it, cost roughly a quarter million apiece.

Is a Stryker with a .50 mount that doesn't work and a 40mm Mk 19 that's an outright danger to its own crew [live firing suspended at Ft Lewis; and at least two US casualties incurred when a crew in Iraq had a weapon discharge during an attempt to clear a feed jam- not to mention what happens if a ammo box full of HEDP rounds takes an RPG hit] more effective than a five or six-tank convoy support platoon for the same cost?

15 posted on 01/31/2004 12:45:11 PM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
The armor plating must withstand 7.62mm at a minimum. Get it on your trucks as soon as possible.

And not *just* 7,62 AK fire, which the Stryker was tested against, and failed in several areas, but 7,62x39 M43 ammunition fired from the 24-inch barrel of the RPK or RPD light machineguns, a whole different threat than the same round from the shorter 16-inch barrel of an AK47 or AKM. Neither should the 7,62x54r cartridge of the SVD sniper's rifle, PK machinegun and similar previous weapons from the SovBl;oc and client state arsenals be forgotten. In the same general category as the US .30-06 cartridge, that's another threat to light vehicles that expedient up-armouring can at least help protect against.

16 posted on 01/31/2004 12:50:23 PM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
I don't trying to mount a Quad 50 on a Stryker Infantry Carrier Vehicle would leave much room for any infantry. Strykers are pretty top heavy already.

The turret of the now-cancelled Military Police XM1117 Armored Support Vehicle, which mounted both a 40mm Mk 19 and a .50 M2 machinegun would seem top be a better answer. It wasn't so excessively heavy as to make a 4-wheeled MP ASV top-heavy, either or both weapoons could be used by the commander, rather than having to select one to mount in advance [and pray it works long enough to get the job done, as with the Stynker's RWS] and the weapons could be reloaded from under cover- I doubt barrel changes for the .50 were so possible, but that could be arranged if needed.

I'd expect the ASV would require the mounting of a pintle or ring-mount 7,62mm M240- or a pair of 5,56mm SAWs- should heavier weapons not be the preferred choice, and to provide instant response to any attack. But that's a minor detail, easily arranged in-theater at battalion maintenance shops.


17 posted on 01/31/2004 1:03:13 PM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
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To: archy; Travis McGee
We could have had turreted Strykers. Several armies do. They are called LAV III's


18 posted on 01/31/2004 1:28:27 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (The road to Glory cannot be followed with too much baggage.)
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To: Old Sarge
Pennsylvanians ready for Stryker mission
19 posted on 01/31/2004 1:33:32 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (The road to Glory cannot be followed with too much baggage.)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
Crew members had headaches after the blast,

I would imagine so!

20 posted on 01/31/2004 1:34:58 PM PST by RogueIsland
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
I don't THINK trying to mount a Quad 50 on a Stryker Infantry Carrier Vehicle would leave much room for any infantry.

Brain fart

21 posted on 01/31/2004 1:52:24 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (The road to Glory cannot be followed with too much baggage.)
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To: RogueIsland
Take two Exedrins and get back out on the road.
22 posted on 01/31/2004 1:58:22 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (The road to Glory cannot be followed with too much baggage.)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
We could have had turreted Strykers. Several armies do. They are called LAV III's

Which can take on an equally equipped similar-sized vehicle, which a Stryker can't do. And which can swim, at least in relatively slow-moving rivers, which Stryker can't do.

The good news is, those attributes are likely not needed for the Stryker's current task. What would be useful would be an RPG-proof multiple MG turret. Even the current RWS, fitted with a couple of 7,62 M240s or SAWs [better: four] would do. And if one gun suffers a feed stoppage as a result of the flexibility of the RWS mount, no problem so long as the others work. And fired in pairs, that'd help alleviate the need for the gunner to come out from under armour to reload every 105 rounds, about 10 seconds worth from an M2 .50.

23 posted on 01/31/2004 2:12:53 PM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
I don't THINK trying to mount a Quad 50 on a Stryker Infantry Carrier Vehicle would leave much room for any infantry.

Agreed, no more than the mounting of the M55 .50 multiple gun mount, or the similar twin .50/37mm autocannon Maxon mount in the WWII M20 armored car did.

And just as the Stryker platoon needs to be accompanied by a vehicle capable of long-range engagement of similar hostile vehicles equipped with kornet or khrizantema AT guided missile system [probably a TOW-equipped Bradley] or at least keep the infantry squad's Javelin gunner aboard one vehicle in the team, probably only one Stynker in 4 or one in six should have the quad-gun mount. The rest should carry the 40mm/.50 turret of those Military Police XM1117 ASVs. That'd require less reworking than the fitting of the *bedsprings* anti RPG slat armor did.

24 posted on 01/31/2004 2:19:56 PM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
We could have had turreted Strykers. Several armies do. They are called LAV III's

The Japanese are now in country, and brought a number of nifty light armoured vehicles with them. It'll be interesting to see how they perform, particularly their Type 87 6-wheeler- if they use it.

<


25 posted on 01/31/2004 2:25:31 PM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
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To: archy
Army passes on Textron contract

IMHO, the ASV is a superior vehicle to the M1114 in nearly every application I can think of.

I wonder if we have any Freepers who have experience with both vehicles?

26 posted on 01/31/2004 2:32:31 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (The road to Glory cannot be followed with too much baggage.)
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To: archy
What do they call those Japanese 4-wheeled armored cars? I was trying to google them and couldn't find it.
27 posted on 01/31/2004 3:00:49 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (The road to Glory cannot be followed with too much baggage.)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
What do they call those Japanese 4-wheeled armored cars? I was trying to google them and couldn't find it.

They call it the *Light Armoured Combat Vehicle * apparantly- amazing the Japanese *self defence force* would use a vehicle with the word *combat* in its name. You'll find a profile pic and some tech info *here*. Note a lot of similarities to the French/Chrysler PVP series.

Their 8-wheel wheelie prototype is the *Type 96*; their Humvee versionis the Toyota Mega-Cruiser, and their Jeep/VLTT equivalent is the *Type 73 Pajero.*

28 posted on 01/31/2004 3:29:58 PM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
IMHO, the ASV is a superior vehicle to the M1114 in nearly every application I can think of.

I'm not sure about its ability to be sling-loaded and transported via UH60 Blackhawk. I know that's possible with a Tow Hummer if the ammunition load and crew is carried in a second helo, though likely not with an armored Humvee version.

And unlike the now slat-armored, 23-ton Strykers, the ASVs can indeed be transported, with crews and at least some ammo load, aboard USAF C130s. If a lightly armored, well-armed reaction force is called for in Iraq, capable of being moved to a hotspot and landed on a nearby airfield or quarter-mile stretch of straight highway, there are two vehicles very suitable for the task: ASVs and M113A3s

29 posted on 01/31/2004 3:36:32 PM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
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To: Travis McGee

Field expedient fighting vehicles like the Alabama Slammer don't make anybody any money and provide no lucrative career opportunities for retired generals.

30 posted on 01/31/2004 3:57:59 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (The road to Glory cannot be followed with too much baggage.)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
We could have had turreted Strykers. Several armies do. They are called LAV III's

Which can take on an equally equipped similar-sized vehicle, which a Stryker can't do. And which can swim, at least in relatively slow-moving rivers, which Stryker can't do.

The good news is, those attributes are likely not needed for the Stryker's current task. What would be useful would be an RPG-proof multiple MG turret. Even the current RWS, fitted with a couple of 7,62 M240s or SAWs [better: four] would do. And if one gun suffers a feed stoppage as a result of the flexibility of the RWS mount, no problem so long as the others work. And fired in pairs, that'd help alleviate the need for the gunner to come out from under armour to reload every 105 rounds, about 10 seconds worth from an M2 .50.

31 posted on 01/31/2004 4:08:29 PM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
" I could take out an RPG team at 750 yards with an M85. Wonder why they didn't."

I reckon that they've got the bugs out of the M 85s by now. I seem to remember there was a lot of problems with them in the early 70s.

32 posted on 01/31/2004 4:18:40 PM PST by Rockpile
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To: Cannoneer No. 4; Matthew James
Good info at 14, nice find!
33 posted on 01/31/2004 4:20:18 PM PST by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: archy; Matthew James
Great thread, great info as always!

Question: on your lowboy tractor trailer/old tank combo, is the tank fixed in place on the trailer, or ready to roll off into the battle when attacked?

34 posted on 01/31/2004 4:23:59 PM PST by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
Thank you very much , Stryker is great !Thank you send this message to me .
35 posted on 01/31/2004 4:27:34 PM PST by serurier (We come here for the freedom of the world)
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To: Travis McGee; Matthew James; archy
archy; Matthew James Great thread, great info as always! "Question: on your lowboy tractor trailer/old tank combo, is the tank fixed in place on the trailer, or ready to roll off into the battle when attacked? 34 posted on 01/31/2004 4:23:59 PM PST by Travis McGee"

Didn't the Army do this in the 60s with APCs on 10 ton trucks? I seem to recall that but don't know if they were 59s, 114s or most likely 113s.------------Or else maybe I got too many senile rocks in the ol' pile :}

36 posted on 01/31/2004 4:44:53 PM PST by Rockpile
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To: Rockpile
Army still use trucks , Please look the picture of post :
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1068196/posts
37 posted on 01/31/2004 4:56:26 PM PST by serurier (We come here for the freedom of the world)
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To: Rockpile; archy
I don't think anybody uses M85's anymore. Probably can't even get linked ammo belts for it anymore. Too bad. You could fabricate a pretty nifty twin .50 mount for a gun truck with a welder and two M85's.
38 posted on 01/31/2004 5:01:37 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (The road to Glory cannot be followed with too much baggage.)
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To: Rockpile

39 posted on 01/31/2004 5:05:45 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (The road to Glory cannot be followed with too much baggage.)
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To: serurier
That's a good pic. Notice the guys in the back facing outward. They are sitting on a bench in the center of the cargo bed instead of along the sides. Now if they had armor plate on the sides and SAWs (Squad Automatic Weapons)on pintle mounts on the corners they would be gun truckin'.
40 posted on 01/31/2004 5:12:44 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (The road to Glory cannot be followed with too much baggage.)
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To: Rockpile

41 posted on 01/31/2004 5:14:12 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (The road to Glory cannot be followed with too much baggage.)
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To: Rockpile

42 posted on 01/31/2004 5:15:41 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (The road to Glory cannot be followed with too much baggage.)
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To: Rockpile
Big Kahuna was the first, 1970.
43 posted on 01/31/2004 5:41:10 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (The road to Glory cannot be followed with too much baggage.)
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To: Travis McGee
Great thread, great info as always! Question: on your lowboy tractor trailer/old tank combo, is the tank fixed in place on the trailer, or ready to roll off into the battle when attacked?

They were ready to roll right off, to do battle with the horrifdied attackers- Achmed- the loads on those trucks, beneath the tarpauleans- they're moving!!!- while the convoy moves on out of the attackers kill zone, and after the worst of the fighting is concluded, the tanks [or other vehicles] can catch back up with the convoy and the transporters for the tanks can drop their ramps and again travel at convoy speeds. And oh, BTW: if a couple of the vehicles are down for maintenance, other loads can be covered with tarps and moved on the flatbeds, leaving the bad guys to guess whether it's an attack response vehicle under there or not.

During the 1960s, the US Army used a 5-tank platoon; for such tasks, it was found that six worked a little better, with two vehicles so carried up near the front of a 20-vehicle or so convoy, two in the middle, and two toward the rear. Since the three-tank headquarters company tank section sometimed drew the short straw for that job, one answer was to use three tanks backed up with three M42 twin-40mm antiaircraft *Dusters, which worked very nicely.*

Indeed, if *lo-boy* depressed center flatbeds or Volvo FH16 *dropbed* trailers are used, the tanks don't even have to roll off ramps to immediately respond- they can *neutral steer* off the side of the flatbed, and get after the task at hand immediately.


44 posted on 01/31/2004 5:42:44 PM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
Yes , But only Stryker , I am still anxious ,You know M2 and M1 Demolished (Because those Road side bomb), So I hope army Unite use More Stryker and UAV ,To Remote, middle distance , close quarter Fight .
45 posted on 01/31/2004 5:51:13 PM PST by serurier (We come here for the freedom of the world)
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To: archy
archy I'm glad see you again .
46 posted on 01/31/2004 5:51:54 PM PST by serurier (We come here for the freedom of the world)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
Hey thanks for the photos. Never saw them myself but heard about their use. Were these APCs that were damaged somehow and unable to be deployed normally?

Also heard of using Ontos with canister rounds as ambush breakers in convoys. I climbed into one at Camp Lejeune, it was pretty small. Might could almost put two of them on a lowboy.

As far as the M 85s go, they seemed to have a lot of feed trouble. The M2s in the M48s seemed to be more reliable from what I recall. Also, the M85 sights in our turrets seemed to mess up a lot; maybe they weren't saltwater proofed enough.

47 posted on 01/31/2004 6:05:14 PM PST by Rockpile
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
I don't think anybody uses M85's anymore. Probably can't even get linked ammo belts for it anymore. Too bad. You could fabricate a pretty nifty twin .50 mount for a gun truck with a welder and two M85's.

Thing is, like the M85, the M2 can be fed from either side, but the gun mounts are built to carry an ammo can on the left side only. One quick-and-dirty answer would be to add on a mount for a Russian PK MG on the other side, since they use a righthand-side feed, unlike the US M240, M60 and M249 MGs. There are Navy/Coast Guard twin-.50 mounts that could be copied and fielded, but for use inside a turret, the M85, designed for that purpose, would be a better pick, since it also has a quick-change barrel and a lo/hi rate of fire [500 RPM/1000 RPM each gun- think about 4 of THOSE on a quad .50 mount....] I'm not sure which link the new M312 .50 MG is supposed to use. But supposedly, pasrt of the problem with the Stryker's Remote Weapons System is the ammunition coming partially unlinked in the feed tray as the vehicle moves down the road, from vibration. The M9 link of the M85, which has a tab that snaps into the cartridge case's extractor groove, like a 7,62mm M60 or M249s M13 link, might solve that problem too. And if it did, it'd not only be a quick fix for the Strykers .509 teething problem, but a cheap one...and one that'd add to the firepower [1000 RPM on fast rate] as well. Until the 105-round ammo can rubs out.

But that's still better than a jam in 45 rounds or less.

-archy-/-

48 posted on 01/31/2004 6:08:04 PM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
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To: Rockpile
As far as the M 85s go, they seemed to have a lot of feed trouble. The M2s in the M48s seemed to be more reliable from what I recall. Also, the M85 sights in our turrets seemed to mess up a lot; maybe they weren't saltwater proofed enough.

The setup for the M85 MG in the commander's cupola of an M48A5 or M60 tank was pretty miserable; when we could, we'd sctrounge an M2 off a headquarters compant track or truck, and mount that externally to the *Chrysler gun mount* welded to the outside of the turret. Even an M60 with a 300-round belt was an improvement over the M2HB TTin the cupola, which had only 50 rounds in the spool provided for it, and the cable-operated charging handle of which frequently frayed until it broke through at the worst possible time. Neither could the M85 quick-change barrel be swapped out when cupola mounted, though an experimental setup to use an M85 as a coax was tested for the M48, and that could be changed inside under armor. The 3000-round amnmo belt for it was a considerable improvement as well.


49 posted on 01/31/2004 6:17:06 PM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
Another two superficial cuts and he'll tie Kerry! He has to do within the next three months though.
50 posted on 01/31/2004 6:29:47 PM PST by opbuzz
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